Ur-Priest CL? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ur-Priest CL? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TravisOfTheCosmose
12-29-07, 06:06 AM The Ur-Priest Spellcasting states it has a caster level equal to your Ur-Priest level, plus 1/2 your levels in other spellcasting classes. Does that include prestige classes that advance existing spellcasting ability? For example, would a wizard 6/Ur-Priest 10/Arcane PrC 4 have an Ur-Priest caster level of 13 or 15? I'm assuming it'd be thirteen, since it doesn't specify "caster levels," just "levels."
runestar
12-29-07, 09:34 AM A spellcasting class is any class with a spell list of its own.

Thus, classes like wizard or even assassin would work. PRCs which simply improve another class spellcasting (such as archmage or mystic theurge) would not count, I think (this is the reason why you cannot apply lvs of archmage onto mystic theurge).
ikki
12-29-07, 11:53 AM now this gets funny when you combine two such odd cl prc:s.
Like a f1/w4/urpriest 2/myst theurge 8/nar demon binder 5

caster levels being w 12
ur: 10+ 6+ 0,5*(nar) = infinite
nar: 5+ 6+ 0,5*(ur) = infinite

;)
Sinfire Titan
12-29-07, 02:00 PM A spellcasting class is any class with a spell list of its own.

Thus, classes like wizard or even assassin would work. PRCs which simply improve another class spellcasting (such as archmage or mystic theurge) would not count, I think (this is the reason why you cannot apply lvs of archmage onto mystic theurge).

You would add the Ur-Priest levels to 1/2 your effective Wizard levels when determining the Ur-Priest caster level. Thus, Archmage and Mystic Theurge would count towards the Ur-Priest CL. A Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 would have a CL of 15th for Ur-Priest. Add in 5 levels of Archmage and you have a CL of 17th. 5 levels of Heirophant, 22nd.
Red_Wizards_Rock
01-02-08, 12:23 AM A spellcasting class is any class with a spell list of its own.

Thus, classes like wizard or even assassin would work. PRCs which simply improve another class spellcasting (such as archmage or mystic theurge) would not count, I think (this is the reason why you cannot apply lvs of archmage onto mystic theurge).

Where did you read this? or maybe I'm missunderstanding so example are you saying?

Priest 3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 5 would not be CL Priest 13/Wizard 18?

If you are saying you wouldn't add Archmage to the wizards level than I'd like to know where you read that? or in the case here.

Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 5

That would make the Ur Priests caster lvl be 21? I'm just being sure I'm with you?
Neraagile
01-30-08, 08:16 PM Wouldn't a better MT build be 1 Fighter/7 Bard/2 Ur-Priest/1 Sublime Chord/9 MT ? (9th level Arcane, 9th Level Divine)(a margin of better hp, and better saves...)
Appart from the XP penalty suck factor?

Edit: which could be negated with Diverse Background (but have to be Half-elf )
Sinfire Titan
01-30-08, 08:54 PM Wouldn't a better MT build be 1 Fighter/7 Bard/2 Ur-Priest/1 Sublime Chord/9 MT ? (9th level Arcane, 9th Level Divine)(a margin of better hp, and better saves...)
Appart from the XP penalty suck factor?

Edit: which could be negated with Diverse Background (but have to be Half-elf )

Why, when Wiz 8/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9 works so much better?

Unless you are going for Inspire Courage/Massive Damage.
Neraagile
01-30-08, 09:10 PM well never mind :thinks:
... I kinda regretted posting the message quite quickly .... so never mind
I never play MT builds anyway :P
Sinfire Titan
01-30-08, 10:59 PM well never mind :thinks:
... I kinda regretted posting the message quite quickly .... so never mind
I never play MT builds anyway :P

And I never play Fighters, so we have even grounds there. :D
Neraagile
01-30-08, 11:08 PM Well I don't play fighter either xD
Edit: not entirely true... played a Monk/fighter gestalt at one point....
StevenO
01-30-08, 11:48 PM My take is the Ur-Priest caster level is the character's Ur-Priest levels + half the base casting level for other classes. I wouldn't look at net "caster level" at all because of how easy that is to increase; this is saying Practiced Spellcaster in another class will not help an Ur-Priest's caster level.

For a build that effectively works out to Wizard10/UrPriest2/Mystic Theurge8 (that is 18th level Arcane casting and all 10 levels of UrPriest casting) that would give an Ur-Priest a casting level of 19. Ten from ten effective Ur-Priest spellcasting levels and another nine as half the Wiz18 contribution.
Mr_Teapot
01-31-08, 04:34 PM Here's the relevant text on Ur-Priest caster levels:

to determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one half of his levels in other spellcasting classes.

(Book of Vile Darkness's text is the same except for the gender of the Ur-Priest.)

Note that it says "levels", not "caster levels". Practised Spellcaster (added to wizard) and that Nar Demonbinder trick don't work here. RAW, this only specifies levels of a class with its own spell list, but would preclude any PrC levels boosting that same spell casting. This seems dumb, of course, but it wouldn't be the first ability like that.
Red_Wizards_Rock
01-31-08, 05:39 PM I'm sorry to hi-jack your thread, but I need alittle back up to see if I should let a player use monstrous race levels for Ur-Priest CL this might help others to. I have a player with a Succubus (Savage Species - 12 levels) Ur-Priest would Spell like abilities count toward CL would the Ur-Priest be CL:

A) 6 + Ur level = CL

or

B) Ur level = CL

Edit: His arguement was the Mindbender requirement to enter the class was Spell like ability: Arcane caster 5?

Thx
StevenO
01-31-08, 09:13 PM Mindbender requires a caster level which is different than a casting level. When determining an Ur-Priest caster level it cares nothing about outside caster levels (how powerful a given spell is) but looks at casting level (what level do I look at when drawing my spells). Thus your Succubus Ur-Priest would see its Ur-Priest caster level = Ur-Priest levels only.

I hate how many things are so similiar to caster level. I consider caster level as what you plug into the a spell's variables and this number changes very easily. While the name is VERY close I look at CastING Level as answering "where do I figure out my spells?" While the two are definitely related they are not the same. When the Ur-Priest states it is looking at "levels in other spellcasting classes" I take that to mean Casting Level as I just defined. While it may not have its own spell progression the Archmage should definitely count as a "spellcasting class" when you are trying to determine the Ur-Priest's CL.
Red_Wizards_Rock
02-01-08, 01:49 AM Sorry man, but I don't think that's enough to deny them Ur-Priest CL. Succubus's have a Caster lvl of 12 not a casting lvl or where ever you are getting that from. Monster Manual and Savage Species give them Caster Lvls, and as far as variables all the monster spell like abilities have variables based on there caster level.
StevenO
02-01-08, 03:06 PM Sorry man, but I don't think that's enough to deny them Ur-Priest CL. Succubus's have a Caster lvl of 12 not a casting lvl or where ever you are getting that from. Monster Manual and Savage Species give them Caster Lvls, and as far as variables all the monster spell like abilities have variables based on there caster level.
Not having any spellCASTING class levels is more than enough to deny Ur-Priest CL. As I've been trying to explain there is a difference between caster level and "levels in spellcasting class." One is a measure of power and the other a measure of potential. An Abjurant Champion could get a tremendous CL and put a lot of power into its spells but thats not to say its spells will have much potential if it only is casting at a 6th level base.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TravisOfTheCosmose 12-29-07, 06:06 AM	The Ur-Priest Spellcasting states it has a caster level equal to your Ur-Priest level, plus 1/2 your levels in other spellcasting classes. Does that include prestige classes that advance existing spellcasting ability? For example, would a wizard 6/Ur-Priest 10/Arcane PrC 4 have an Ur-Priest caster level of 13 or 15? I'm assuming it'd be thirteen, since it doesn't specify "caster levels," just "levels."
runestar 12-29-07, 09:34 AM	A spellcasting class is any class with a spell list of its own. Thus, classes like wizard or even assassin would work. PRCs which simply improve another class spellcasting (such as archmage or mystic theurge) would not count, I think (this is the reason why you cannot apply lvs of archmage onto mystic theurge).
ikki 12-29-07, 11:53 AM	now this gets funny when you combine two such odd cl prc:s. Like a f1/w4/urpriest 2/myst theurge 8/nar demon binder 5 caster levels being w 12 ur: 10+ 6+ 0,5(nar) = infinite nar: 5+ 6+ 0,5(ur) = infinite ;)
Sinfire Titan 12-29-07, 02:00 PM	A spellcasting class is any class with a spell list of its own. Thus, classes like wizard or even assassin would work. PRCs which simply improve another class spellcasting (such as archmage or mystic theurge) would not count, I think (this is the reason why you cannot apply lvs of archmage onto mystic theurge). You would add the Ur-Priest levels to 1/2 your effective Wizard levels when determining the Ur-Priest caster level. Thus, Archmage and Mystic Theurge would count towards the Ur-Priest CL. A Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 would have a CL of 15th for Ur-Priest. Add in 5 levels of Archmage and you have a CL of 17th. 5 levels of Heirophant, 22nd.
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-02-08, 12:23 AM	A spellcasting class is any class with a spell list of its own. Thus, classes like wizard or even assassin would work. PRCs which simply improve another class spellcasting (such as archmage or mystic theurge) would not count, I think (this is the reason why you cannot apply lvs of archmage onto mystic theurge). Where did you read this? or maybe I'm missunderstanding so example are you saying? Priest 3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 5 would not be CL Priest 13/Wizard 18? If you are saying you wouldn't add Archmage to the wizards level than I'd like to know where you read that? or in the case here. Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 5 That would make the Ur Priests caster lvl be 21? I'm just being sure I'm with you?
Neraagile 01-30-08, 08:16 PM	Wouldn't a better MT build be 1 Fighter/7 Bard/2 Ur-Priest/1 Sublime Chord/9 MT ? (9th level Arcane, 9th Level Divine)(a margin of better hp, and better saves...) Appart from the XP penalty suck factor? Edit: which could be negated with Diverse Background (but have to be Half-elf )
Sinfire Titan 01-30-08, 08:54 PM	Wouldn't a better MT build be 1 Fighter/7 Bard/2 Ur-Priest/1 Sublime Chord/9 MT ? (9th level Arcane, 9th Level Divine)(a margin of better hp, and better saves...) Appart from the XP penalty suck factor? Edit: which could be negated with Diverse Background (but have to be Half-elf ) Why, when Wiz 8/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9 works so much better? Unless you are going for Inspire Courage/Massive Damage.
Neraagile 01-30-08, 09:10 PM	well never mind :thinks: ... I kinda regretted posting the message quite quickly .... so never mind I never play MT builds anyway :P
Sinfire Titan 01-30-08, 10:59 PM	well never mind :thinks: ... I kinda regretted posting the message quite quickly .... so never mind I never play MT builds anyway :P And I never play Fighters, so we have even grounds there. :D
Neraagile 01-30-08, 11:08 PM	Well I don't play fighter either xD Edit: not entirely true... played a Monk/fighter gestalt at one point....
StevenO 01-30-08, 11:48 PM	My take is the Ur-Priest caster level is the character's Ur-Priest levels + half the base casting level for other classes. I wouldn't look at net "caster level" at all because of how easy that is to increase; this is saying Practiced Spellcaster in another class will not help an Ur-Priest's caster level. For a build that effectively works out to Wizard10/UrPriest2/Mystic Theurge8 (that is 18th level Arcane casting and all 10 levels of UrPriest casting) that would give an Ur-Priest a casting level of 19. Ten from ten effective Ur-Priest spellcasting levels and another nine as half the Wiz18 contribution.
Mr_Teapot 01-31-08, 04:34 PM	Here's the relevant text on Ur-Priest caster levels: to determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Book of Vile Darkness's text is the same except for the gender of the Ur-Priest.) Note that it says "levels", not "caster levels". Practised Spellcaster (added to wizard) and that Nar Demonbinder trick don't work here. RAW, this only specifies levels of a class with its own spell list, but would preclude any PrC levels boosting that same spell casting. This seems dumb, of course, but it wouldn't be the first ability like that.
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-31-08, 05:39 PM	I'm sorry to hi-jack your thread, but I need alittle back up to see if I should let a player use monstrous race levels for Ur-Priest CL this might help others to. I have a player with a Succubus (Savage Species - 12 levels) Ur-Priest would Spell like abilities count toward CL would the Ur-Priest be CL: A) 6 + Ur level = CL or B) Ur level = CL Edit: His arguement was the Mindbender requirement to enter the class was Spell like ability: Arcane caster 5? Thx
StevenO 01-31-08, 09:13 PM	Mindbender requires a caster level which is different than a casting level. When determining an Ur-Priest caster level it cares nothing about outside caster levels (how powerful a given spell is) but looks at casting level (what level do I look at when drawing my spells). Thus your Succubus Ur-Priest would see its Ur-Priest caster level = Ur-Priest levels only. I hate how many things are so similiar to caster level. I consider caster level as what you plug into the a spell's variables and this number changes very easily. While the name is VERY close I look at CastING Level as answering "where do I figure out my spells?" While the two are definitely related they are not the same. When the Ur-Priest states it is looking at "levels in other spellcasting classes" I take that to mean Casting Level as I just defined. While it may not have its own spell progression the Archmage should definitely count as a "spellcasting class" when you are trying to determine the Ur-Priest's CL.
Red_Wizards_Rock 02-01-08, 01:49 AM	Sorry man, but I don't think that's enough to deny them Ur-Priest CL. Succubus's have a Caster lvl of 12 not a casting lvl or where ever you are getting that from. Monster Manual and Savage Species give them Caster Lvls, and as far as variables all the monster spell like abilities have variables based on there caster level.
StevenO 02-01-08, 03:06 PM	Sorry man, but I don't think that's enough to deny them Ur-Priest CL. Succubus's have a Caster lvl of 12 not a casting lvl or where ever you are getting that from. Monster Manual and Savage Species give them Caster Lvls, and as far as variables all the monster spell like abilities have variables based on there caster level. Not having any spellCASTING class levels is more than enough to deny Ur-Priest CL. As I've been trying to explain there is a difference between caster level and "levels in spellcasting class." One is a measure of power and the other a measure of potential. An Abjurant Champion could get a tremendous CL and put a lot of power into its spells but thats not to say its spells will have much potential if it only is casting at a 6th level base.