War hulk? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

War hulk? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheEndIsNear
03-03-08, 08:12 AM A level ten warhulk can have his attacks hit everynoe in his reach once for ever attack he has, right?

So a large creature with a spiked chain can (pretend 2 attacks) hit everyone within 20 feet twice, right?

Does this apply to AoO? So would a level 5 Barb/10 War Hulk use a AoO to hit everyone within his reach with a spiked chain?

Would that work?

That would make my day!

Thanks

(I love gestalt)

D-End

EDIT: I'd also need help for this: thanks, :P (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15244370#post15244370)
dman11235
03-03-08, 09:25 AM No. An AoO is only against the target, and only once, unless stated otherwise.
TheEndIsNear
03-03-08, 10:17 AM Ok thank you:P

What about the feats?

(the edited link)

A cookie for dman11235, btw is the next number 8?

D-End
dman11235
03-03-08, 10:19 AM Yes, yes it is.
JaronK
03-03-08, 10:04 PM Wait, where does it say an AOO is different from the War Hulk's normal attacks? AOOs give attack actions. They can be special attack actions (such as trips) so why not area attacks from the War Hulk?

JaronK
dman11235
03-04-08, 09:59 AM I thought he was referring to Whirlwind Attack, but maybe, if there is a War Hulk ability that allows each attack action to be whirlwind.
JaronK
03-04-08, 05:45 PM War Hulks can attack everyone in range as an attack action. It's very handy.

Fun trick: Use Dungeoncrasher/Knockback/Shock Trooper to hit everyone in the area, knocking them back and automatically tripping them. Then use Improved Trip to get a free attack against everyone you just tripped... and each of those attacks hits everyone else. Thus, if you're fighting three people, you use one attack action to hit all three, then get three free attacks against all of them (plus they're tripped and knocked back). One attack action, 4 attacks on all of them. If that happens to knock them into a wall, you do a whole bunch more damage as well.

Wheee!

JaronK
Wih
03-04-08, 11:40 PM AoOs don't give Attack Actions - they give an attack. An Attack Action is quite different to an Attack.
It's not that an AoO is only against one person, it's that an Attack is only against one person - the Warhulk's Attack Action can do otherwise, but not a normal attack from something else (such as Improved Trip, Great Cleave etc)
dman11235
03-04-08, 11:43 PM Okay...I think what you're trying to say is that the warhulk is an attack action which is different than an attack, and you can only make an attack when taking an AoO. But that is wrong, since you are using the attack action to make trip attempts and disarm and such, and you can use those in an AoO.
JaronK
03-05-08, 04:21 AM Precisely. An attack action is what you get from an Attack of Opportunity. That can be used to do a standard attack, or initiate a grapple, or make a trip attempt, or whatever.

Having Warhulk levels lets you do something new with your attack actions, namely hit multiple people. This makes the combination of Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, and Improved Trip incredibly potent, enabling you to blow off their feat everyone around you with a single devastating attack.

Note that you are required when doing this to yell "HULK SMASH."

JaronK
Wih
03-05-08, 07:54 PM Not quite, you get an attack from an AoO: (emphasis mine)
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack,

If the Warhulk says that as an attack action he can attack everyone in reach, then he can do so as an attack action (which is a standard action). He cannot do so on any attack, as a normal attack (from bonus attack, such as AoOs, Improved Trip etc) is not effected by things that specifically effect attack actions.
Another example of this is the use of Manyshot with any effect that gives AoOs to ranged attacks (such as Ranger spells) - you wouldn't be able to use Manyshot on such an AoO, as it is not a normal attack, it's an action specifically different from an attack action.

Does that clarify my point a bit better?

One thing I'd note though, is that Spring Attack does specify an attack action - you could use this ability with that, for move/whirlwind attack/finish move.
dman11235
03-05-08, 08:22 PM Manyshot is a standard action, and that's why it doesn't work. The War Hulk is not a standard action, but an attack action. An AoO allows for an attack action, otherwise trip and disarm and such wouldn't be able to be used by them.

This all hinges on the War Hulk ability being an attack action activated, and since I am too lazy and busy right now to look it up, I'll assume that JaronK is right.
TheEndIsNear
03-05-08, 09:14 PM So yes or no?

Man I am useless...

D-End
JaronK
03-05-08, 10:06 PM Not quite, you get an attack from an AoO: (emphasis mine)

If the Warhulk says that as an attack action he can attack everyone in reach, then he can do so as an attack action (which is a standard action).

False. An attack action is not the same as a standard action. You can make an attack action as a standard action, just as you can make a move action as a standard action, but they're not the same thing. For example, you can't make multiple standard actions as a full attack action, but you can make multiple attack actions as a full attack action.

So, you might want to read up on this stuff. The War Hulk attack is an attack action (once he gets high enough level, at lower class levels it's different), not a standard action.

Another example of this is the use of Manyshot with any effect that gives AoOs to ranged attacks (such as Ranger spells) - you wouldn't be able to use Manyshot on such an AoO, as it is not a normal attack, it's an action specifically different from an attack action.

Manyshot is a standard action, not an attack action.

Does that clarify my point a bit better?

Yes, and it's wrong.

JaronK
Rykler
03-06-08, 03:00 PM What book is the war hulk in, anyway?
dman11235
03-06-08, 04:21 PM Miniatures Handbook.
Sinfire Titan
03-06-08, 04:45 PM What book is the war hulk in, anyway?

Here. And Minis handbook. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a)
Akharu
03-06-08, 04:56 PM Sorry, but Massive Swing is still a standard action.

"Massive swing works like mighty swing, except that its effect is not limited to three squares."

I think people are reading the sentence before that and getting their hopes up.
JaronK
03-06-08, 11:39 PM " A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action."

See? It even then goes on to say how you can do it multiple times as part of a full attack action.

In fact, the War Hulk attack doesn't ever seem to be a standard action. It goes straight from full round to attack action.

JaronK
strenoth
03-07-08, 10:27 AM Great Swing (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the war hulk is able to make a great, sweeping swing with a melee weapon. In melee, as a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to each other (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. If the war hulk rolls a critical hit, only the first creature suffers the critical hit.

Walls and similar obstacles can block the great swing. Start with one square that the war hulk threatens. Each successive square chosen must be adjacent to the previous square and have line of effect from that square. Two squares separated by a wall, for instance, can't be chosen as adjacent squares for the great swing.

The war hulk may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to. For example, if there are three creatures in a row -- an enemy, an ally, and another enemy -- the war hulk can choose those three squares for the great swing but strike only the enemies.

If the war hulk drops one of his foes with a great swing, he may cleave normally. However, he may cleave only once for every time he swings, even if he drops more than one foe.

If the war hulk deals sneak attack damage, it applies only to the first creature struck with each attack.

Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the war hulk can make mighty swings. A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. Thus, the war hulk can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.

Massive Swing (Ex): At 10th level, the war hulk can lash out all around himself. Massive swing works like mighty swing except that it is not limited to three squares. The war hulk's swing affects all squares he threatens that have a line of effect between them.

Yeah, reading those, I'd have to say yes, even on an AoO, you can attack all creatures in melee range. Ouch.
Akharu
03-07-08, 12:59 PM Was there an errata to this ability that I'm just missing? Everyone seems to think this is an attack action and the original text very much says otherwise.

<Edit> Oh, now I see what's going on. You guys are looking at the write-up on the website and I'm looking at the book. They say two very different things.
dman11235
03-07-08, 06:19 PM After looking at my copy: yeah, they are different. So we were both right!
TheEndIsNear
03-07-08, 09:30 PM So yes or no, from what I get, both!

lolz

from the book is it yes or no?

thanks

D-End
dman11235
03-08-08, 05:52 PM From book: no. From site: yes.
JaronK
03-09-08, 09:49 AM Ah, I see the problem now.

The book is wrong, the website is right. "Mighty Swing" as written in the book says "Standard Action" but if you read the last scentance of the paragraph on Mighty Swing it's clear they meant attack action, since it says you can make multiple attacks as a full round action, which is true of attack actions, not standard actions.

But yeah, now I see why there's such confusion.

JaronK
taybon
03-09-08, 03:16 PM Are you sure about that? Perhaps it is a standard action, with the special quality of being usable multiple times in a full attack action? I have not been able to find any errata for the book that changes it from a standard action to attack action.

Also keep in mind "Primary Sources" in this case. There is no official errata, so one must go with the primary source, which in this case I feel is the printed hardcover book, rather than the online preview of said book.

Now, all of that rules-lawyering said, I would completely understand if you house-rule it to be an attack action (it is certainly an arguable position), but realize the sort of tactics you are allowing (such as your example about the Dungeoncrasher/Knockback/Shock Trooper).
dman11235
03-09-08, 03:23 PM No, Jaron would be right. Standard actions cannot be made as part of a full attack. And since the text earlier says that you can make it as part of a full attack, either that whole lead in is a typo, or the word "standard" is a typo.

And they are both primary sources. If anything the web version came first (it's under "what's to come").
taybon
03-09-08, 03:59 PM First off, my thoughts on the ability:
My impression is the writers wanted the ability to be usable as a standard action and multiple times in a full attack action, but didn't want to allow its use during any attack action (such as those gained by improved trip and attacks of opportunity). Rather than say "this ability is an attack action, but you can only use this attack action as part of the standard action attack or full attack action" they said "this is a Standard action, with the special case that you can use it multiple times as part of a full attack action."

Again, this is my take on why it would be a standard action. I don't presume to know what the writers were thinking, and even if I'm correct they certainly could have made the intent clearer (but then again they aren't exactly known for their unambiguous and clearly interpretable writing style).

Now, on the topic of primary sources. You are correct, both sources were released by WotC, and are thus primary sources. At this point, you determine which is "more" primary, and I still feel the actual book take precedence over the online article. My question to you is, where did the text from the preview come from, if not the book?

the preview and book disagree, though, which means one of two things happened: the preview took the excerpt from an older version of the book than what was published (and the book is more up-to-date and thus more primary) or the preview took the excerpt from a newer version of the book than what was published. The problem with the latter case, however, is it implies they had already errata'd the book, but said errata is nowhere to be found, four and a half years later, even though other errata have been released for the book.
Tordak
03-09-08, 05:01 PM I gonna go back a few post here.

Mighty swing is an attack action. You can use a standard action to make an attack action. You can use a full round action to make a full attack action and take advantage of many attack (based on your BAB). So you can make multiple mighty swing in a round. I think we all agree on this.

A melee attack is an attack action. You can use a standard action to make an attack action. You can use a full round action to make a full attack action and take advantage of many attack (based on your BAB). So you can make multiple melee attack in a round. I think we all agree on this.

An AoO gives you a single melee attack against an opponent you threaten.

But Mighty swing, altough it is executed in melee, is not a melee attack. Moreover, it's not a single melee attack. Which is what you get when you get an AoO. Not an attack action, a single melee attack. This is quite different.

Also, AoO is not even an action and falls in the 'non action' category of the PHB (see rules of the game here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a);you take whatever you want from it). So you would not get an attack action. All you get is what you are given, which is a single melee attack.

Once again, melee attack is an attack action, mighty swing is an attack action, but the are not the same thing, they are not equivalent; they are 2 disticnt elements of the 'attack action' ensemble. So Mighty swing on an AoO is not possible.
Dionon
03-09-08, 05:03 PM How bout a happy medium? If you make a AoO with Massive Swing, you only effect those that provoke an AoO... So The Fighter rushing towards you, the wizard casting a spell 10 feet away, the archer cranking his crossbow and the man attempting to drink a potion don't have the clarity of vision to move, the others, the two fighters engaging you in Melee and the ranger taking a 5 foot step to get towards you would be able to avoid the AoO.... I hope that's a happy medium...
JaronK
03-10-08, 01:34 AM The wording in the book is clearly an error, which you can catch if you read it... they say you can use it as a standard action, and use this as why it now works as a full attack action. Standard actions don't cause this, attack actions do. Thus, the paragraph only makes sense if Standard becomes Attack.

And the web version is equally valid, and has wording that makes sense.

So yeah, it's an attack action, with all that implies.

You can, of course, make house rules if you feel that's too strong, but honestly, by the time you get that ability you're probably around level 17 or so, at which point the casters are all blowing melees away anyway. This is just one PrC that makes that less obvious... so I don't actually think it's a balance issue.

And it's a fun effect.

JaronK
dman11235
03-10-08, 09:51 AM And it's situational. You need more than one opponent within reach. Which if they are smart won't happen. If they are smart (especially at that level) though, they won't provoke he AoO to begin with.
Wih
03-11-08, 12:57 AM An attack action is not the same as a standard action. You can make an attack action as a standard action, just as you can make a move action as a standard action, but they're not the same thing. For example, you can't make multiple standard actions as a full attack action, but you can make multiple attack actions as a full attack action.

So, you might want to read up on this stuff. The War Hulk attack is an attack action (once he gets high enough level, at lower class levels it's different), not a standard action.

You might want to read up on this stuff - an Attack Action is a standard action to execute, and a Melee Attack is not an Attack Action, as actions apart from a Attack Action can generate it.
And I never said that an attack was a standard action - I said that an Attack Action is a standard action. Different terminology. Attack Actions can produce Melee Attacks, but not all Melee Attacks are produced by Attack Actions.
Because the Warhulk states that it only triggers on an Attack Action, it only triggers on an Attack Action, not every melee attack made. If the melee attack was made from an Attack Action, then it does - but not if it's from something else, like an AoO.
Dionon
03-11-08, 02:41 PM So no one liked my Happy Medium idea?
BobSutan
03-14-08, 01:38 PM Precisely. An attack action is what you get from an Attack of Opportunity. That can be used to do a standard attack, or initiate a grapple, or make a trip attempt, or whatever.

Having Warhulk levels lets you do something new with your attack actions, namely hit multiple people. This makes the combination of Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, and Improved Trip incredibly potent, enabling you to blow off their feat everyone around you with a single devastating attack.

Note that you are required when doing this to yell "HULK SMASH."

JaronK

+1 for Hulk Mash

This certainly is a good idea though, but many DMs will probably try to nerf it the first time someone did manage to do what you described.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheEndIsNear 03-03-08, 08:12 AM	A level ten warhulk can have his attacks hit everynoe in his reach once for ever attack he has, right? So a large creature with a spiked chain can (pretend 2 attacks) hit everyone within 20 feet twice, right? Does this apply to AoO? So would a level 5 Barb/10 War Hulk use a AoO to hit everyone within his reach with a spiked chain? Would that work? That would make my day! Thanks (I love gestalt) D-End EDIT: I'd also need help for this: thanks, :P (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15244370#post15244370)
dman11235 03-03-08, 09:25 AM	No. An AoO is only against the target, and only once, unless stated otherwise.
TheEndIsNear 03-03-08, 10:17 AM	Ok thank you:P What about the feats? (the edited link) A cookie for dman11235, btw is the next number 8? D-End
dman11235 03-03-08, 10:19 AM	Yes, yes it is.
JaronK 03-03-08, 10:04 PM	Wait, where does it say an AOO is different from the War Hulk's normal attacks? AOOs give attack actions. They can be special attack actions (such as trips) so why not area attacks from the War Hulk? JaronK
dman11235 03-04-08, 09:59 AM	I thought he was referring to Whirlwind Attack, but maybe, if there is a War Hulk ability that allows each attack action to be whirlwind.
JaronK 03-04-08, 05:45 PM	War Hulks can attack everyone in range as an attack action. It's very handy. Fun trick: Use Dungeoncrasher/Knockback/Shock Trooper to hit everyone in the area, knocking them back and automatically tripping them. Then use Improved Trip to get a free attack against everyone you just tripped... and each of those attacks hits everyone else. Thus, if you're fighting three people, you use one attack action to hit all three, then get three free attacks against all of them (plus they're tripped and knocked back). One attack action, 4 attacks on all of them. If that happens to knock them into a wall, you do a whole bunch more damage as well. Wheee! JaronK
Wih 03-04-08, 11:40 PM	AoOs don't give Attack Actions - they give an attack. An Attack Action is quite different to an Attack. It's not that an AoO is only against one person, it's that an Attack is only against one person - the Warhulk's Attack Action can do otherwise, but not a normal attack from something else (such as Improved Trip, Great Cleave etc)
dman11235 03-04-08, 11:43 PM	Okay...I think what you're trying to say is that the warhulk is an attack action which is different than an attack, and you can only make an attack when taking an AoO. But that is wrong, since you are using the attack action to make trip attempts and disarm and such, and you can use those in an AoO.
JaronK 03-05-08, 04:21 AM	Precisely. An attack action is what you get from an Attack of Opportunity. That can be used to do a standard attack, or initiate a grapple, or make a trip attempt, or whatever. Having Warhulk levels lets you do something new with your attack actions, namely hit multiple people. This makes the combination of Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, and Improved Trip incredibly potent, enabling you to blow off their feat everyone around you with a single devastating attack. Note that you are required when doing this to yell "HULK SMASH." JaronK
Wih 03-05-08, 07:54 PM	Not quite, you get an attack from an AoO: (emphasis mine) An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, If the Warhulk says that as an attack action he can attack everyone in reach, then he can do so as an attack action (which is a standard action). He cannot do so on any attack, as a normal attack (from bonus attack, such as AoOs, Improved Trip etc) is not effected by things that specifically effect attack actions. Another example of this is the use of Manyshot with any effect that gives AoOs to ranged attacks (such as Ranger spells) - you wouldn't be able to use Manyshot on such an AoO, as it is not a normal attack, it's an action specifically different from an attack action. Does that clarify my point a bit better? One thing I'd note though, is that Spring Attack does specify an attack action - you could use this ability with that, for move/whirlwind attack/finish move.
dman11235 03-05-08, 08:22 PM	Manyshot is a standard action, and that's why it doesn't work. The War Hulk is not a standard action, but an attack action. An AoO allows for an attack action, otherwise trip and disarm and such wouldn't be able to be used by them. This all hinges on the War Hulk ability being an attack action activated, and since I am too lazy and busy right now to look it up, I'll assume that JaronK is right.
TheEndIsNear 03-05-08, 09:14 PM	So yes or no? Man I am useless... D-End
JaronK 03-05-08, 10:06 PM	Not quite, you get an attack from an AoO: (emphasis mine) If the Warhulk says that as an attack action he can attack everyone in reach, then he can do so as an attack action (which is a standard action). False. An attack action is not the same as a standard action. You can make an attack action as a standard action, just as you can make a move action as a standard action, but they're not the same thing. For example, you can't make multiple standard actions as a full attack action, but you can make multiple attack actions as a full attack action. So, you might want to read up on this stuff. The War Hulk attack is an attack action (once he gets high enough level, at lower class levels it's different), not a standard action. Another example of this is the use of Manyshot with any effect that gives AoOs to ranged attacks (such as Ranger spells) - you wouldn't be able to use Manyshot on such an AoO, as it is not a normal attack, it's an action specifically different from an attack action. Manyshot is a standard action, not an attack action. Does that clarify my point a bit better? Yes, and it's wrong. JaronK
Rykler 03-06-08, 03:00 PM	What book is the war hulk in, anyway?
dman11235 03-06-08, 04:21 PM	Miniatures Handbook.
Sinfire Titan 03-06-08, 04:45 PM	What book is the war hulk in, anyway? Here. And Minis handbook. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a)
Akharu 03-06-08, 04:56 PM	Sorry, but Massive Swing is still a standard action. "Massive swing works like mighty swing, except that its effect is not limited to three squares." I think people are reading the sentence before that and getting their hopes up.
JaronK 03-06-08, 11:39 PM	" A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action." See? It even then goes on to say how you can do it multiple times as part of a full attack action. In fact, the War Hulk attack doesn't ever seem to be a standard action. It goes straight from full round to attack action. JaronK
strenoth 03-07-08, 10:27 AM	Great Swing (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the war hulk is able to make a great, sweeping swing with a melee weapon. In melee, as a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to each other (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. If the war hulk rolls a critical hit, only the first creature suffers the critical hit. Walls and similar obstacles can block the great swing. Start with one square that the war hulk threatens. Each successive square chosen must be adjacent to the previous square and have line of effect from that square. Two squares separated by a wall, for instance, can't be chosen as adjacent squares for the great swing. The war hulk may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to. For example, if there are three creatures in a row -- an enemy, an ally, and another enemy -- the war hulk can choose those three squares for the great swing but strike only the enemies. If the war hulk drops one of his foes with a great swing, he may cleave normally. However, he may cleave only once for every time he swings, even if he drops more than one foe. If the war hulk deals sneak attack damage, it applies only to the first creature struck with each attack. Mighty Swing (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the war hulk can make mighty swings. A mighty swing is like a great swing except that it is an attack action rather than a full-round action. Thus, the war hulk can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round. Massive Swing (Ex): At 10th level, the war hulk can lash out all around himself. Massive swing works like mighty swing except that it is not limited to three squares. The war hulk's swing affects all squares he threatens that have a line of effect between them. Yeah, reading those, I'd have to say yes, even on an AoO, you can attack all creatures in melee range. Ouch.
Akharu 03-07-08, 12:59 PM	Was there an errata to this ability that I'm just missing? Everyone seems to think this is an attack action and the original text very much says otherwise. <Edit> Oh, now I see what's going on. You guys are looking at the write-up on the website and I'm looking at the book. They say two very different things.
dman11235 03-07-08, 06:19 PM	After looking at my copy: yeah, they are different. So we were both right!
TheEndIsNear 03-07-08, 09:30 PM	So yes or no, from what I get, both! lolz from the book is it yes or no? thanks D-End
dman11235 03-08-08, 05:52 PM	From book: no. From site: yes.
JaronK 03-09-08, 09:49 AM	Ah, I see the problem now. The book is wrong, the website is right. "Mighty Swing" as written in the book says "Standard Action" but if you read the last scentance of the paragraph on Mighty Swing it's clear they meant attack action, since it says you can make multiple attacks as a full round action, which is true of attack actions, not standard actions. But yeah, now I see why there's such confusion. JaronK
taybon 03-09-08, 03:16 PM	Are you sure about that? Perhaps it is a standard action, with the special quality of being usable multiple times in a full attack action? I have not been able to find any errata for the book that changes it from a standard action to attack action. Also keep in mind "Primary Sources" in this case. There is no official errata, so one must go with the primary source, which in this case I feel is the printed hardcover book, rather than the online preview of said book. Now, all of that rules-lawyering said, I would completely understand if you house-rule it to be an attack action (it is certainly an arguable position), but realize the sort of tactics you are allowing (such as your example about the Dungeoncrasher/Knockback/Shock Trooper).
dman11235 03-09-08, 03:23 PM	No, Jaron would be right. Standard actions cannot be made as part of a full attack. And since the text earlier says that you can make it as part of a full attack, either that whole lead in is a typo, or the word "standard" is a typo. And they are both primary sources. If anything the web version came first (it's under "what's to come").
taybon 03-09-08, 03:59 PM	First off, my thoughts on the ability: My impression is the writers wanted the ability to be usable as a standard action and multiple times in a full attack action, but didn't want to allow its use during any attack action (such as those gained by improved trip and attacks of opportunity). Rather than say "this ability is an attack action, but you can only use this attack action as part of the standard action attack or full attack action" they said "this is a Standard action, with the special case that you can use it multiple times as part of a full attack action." Again, this is my take on why it would be a standard action. I don't presume to know what the writers were thinking, and even if I'm correct they certainly could have made the intent clearer (but then again they aren't exactly known for their unambiguous and clearly interpretable writing style). Now, on the topic of primary sources. You are correct, both sources were released by WotC, and are thus primary sources. At this point, you determine which is "more" primary, and I still feel the actual book take precedence over the online article. My question to you is, where did the text from the preview come from, if not the book? the preview and book disagree, though, which means one of two things happened: the preview took the excerpt from an older version of the book than what was published (and the book is more up-to-date and thus more primary) or the preview took the excerpt from a newer version of the book than what was published. The problem with the latter case, however, is it implies they had already errata'd the book, but said errata is nowhere to be found, four and a half years later, even though other errata have been released for the book.
Tordak 03-09-08, 05:01 PM	I gonna go back a few post here. Mighty swing is an attack action. You can use a standard action to make an attack action. You can use a full round action to make a full attack action and take advantage of many attack (based on your BAB). So you can make multiple mighty swing in a round. I think we all agree on this. A melee attack is an attack action. You can use a standard action to make an attack action. You can use a full round action to make a full attack action and take advantage of many attack (based on your BAB). So you can make multiple melee attack in a round. I think we all agree on this. An AoO gives you a single melee attack against an opponent you threaten. But Mighty swing, altough it is executed in melee, is not a melee attack. Moreover, it's not a single melee attack. Which is what you get when you get an AoO. Not an attack action, a single melee attack. This is quite different. Also, AoO is not even an action and falls in the 'non action' category of the PHB (see rules of the game here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a);you take whatever you want from it). So you would not get an attack action. All you get is what you are given, which is a single melee attack. Once again, melee attack is an attack action, mighty swing is an attack action, but the are not the same thing, they are not equivalent; they are 2 disticnt elements of the 'attack action' ensemble. So Mighty swing on an AoO is not possible.
Dionon 03-09-08, 05:03 PM	How bout a happy medium? If you make a AoO with Massive Swing, you only effect those that provoke an AoO... So The Fighter rushing towards you, the wizard casting a spell 10 feet away, the archer cranking his crossbow and the man attempting to drink a potion don't have the clarity of vision to move, the others, the two fighters engaging you in Melee and the ranger taking a 5 foot step to get towards you would be able to avoid the AoO.... I hope that's a happy medium...
JaronK 03-10-08, 01:34 AM	The wording in the book is clearly an error, which you can catch if you read it... they say you can use it as a standard action, and use this as why it now works as a full attack action. Standard actions don't cause this, attack actions do. Thus, the paragraph only makes sense if Standard becomes Attack. And the web version is equally valid, and has wording that makes sense. So yeah, it's an attack action, with all that implies. You can, of course, make house rules if you feel that's too strong, but honestly, by the time you get that ability you're probably around level 17 or so, at which point the casters are all blowing melees away anyway. This is just one PrC that makes that less obvious... so I don't actually think it's a balance issue. And it's a fun effect. JaronK
dman11235 03-10-08, 09:51 AM	And it's situational. You need more than one opponent within reach. Which if they are smart won't happen. If they are smart (especially at that level) though, they won't provoke he AoO to begin with.
Wih 03-11-08, 12:57 AM	An attack action is not the same as a standard action. You can make an attack action as a standard action, just as you can make a move action as a standard action, but they're not the same thing. For example, you can't make multiple standard actions as a full attack action, but you can make multiple attack actions as a full attack action. So, you might want to read up on this stuff. The War Hulk attack is an attack action (once he gets high enough level, at lower class levels it's different), not a standard action. You might want to read up on this stuff - an Attack Action is a standard action to execute, and a Melee Attack is not an Attack Action, as actions apart from a Attack Action can generate it. And I never said that an attack was a standard action - I said that an Attack Action is a standard action. Different terminology. Attack Actions can produce Melee Attacks, but not all Melee Attacks are produced by Attack Actions. Because the Warhulk states that it only triggers on an Attack Action, it only triggers on an Attack Action, not every melee attack made. If the melee attack was made from an Attack Action, then it does - but not if it's from something else, like an AoO.
Dionon 03-11-08, 02:41 PM	So no one liked my Happy Medium idea?
BobSutan 03-14-08, 01:38 PM	Precisely. An attack action is what you get from an Attack of Opportunity. That can be used to do a standard attack, or initiate a grapple, or make a trip attempt, or whatever. Having Warhulk levels lets you do something new with your attack actions, namely hit multiple people. This makes the combination of Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, and Improved Trip incredibly potent, enabling you to blow off their feat everyone around you with a single devastating attack. Note that you are required when doing this to yell "HULK SMASH." JaronK +1 for Hulk Mash This certainly is a good idea though, but many DMs will probably try to nerf it the first time someone did manage to do what you described.