Warforge Dragon Disciple? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforge Dragon Disciple? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ace_of_time
09-11-07, 09:16 AM My wife wanted to be this as one of her PCs in the future so I said I would see if it was possible. No where does it say humanoid. To the Pro requirements she would just have to go sorc for 4 levels. So is it possible? thanks!
iceifur
09-11-07, 09:31 AM It's perfectly viable from a mechanical standpoint. Non-dragon? Check. Living, corporeal creature? Check.

Heck, the Half-Dragon template is one of the few that can be applied to Warforged. ;)
JellyPooga
09-11-07, 01:11 PM Bear in mind that upon reaching Dragon Apotheothis at lvl. 10 she aquires the Dragon type and she will lose all her Living Construct traits...all those immunities are gone, she now eats, breathes and sleeps, she heals naturally, healing spells work normally, etc.

Bizarrely, she will keep her Composite Plating (including the benefits of related feats like Mithral Body) and Fortification...:confused:
Ecalsneerg
09-11-07, 01:12 PM Bear in mind that upon reaching Dragon Apotheothis at lvl. 10 she aquires the Dragon type and she will lose all her Living Construct traits...all those immunities are gone, she now eats, breathes and sleeps, she heals naturally, healing spells work normally, etc.

It's like a bizarre Warforged version of Bicentennial Man...
StevenO
09-11-07, 07:38 PM Yes, a Warforged may enter Dragon Disciple. It does not need four levels of sorcerer to qualify although meeting the prereq. Knowledge may be tricky. Typically you'd enter DragonD with a single level of sorcerer (two is possible but more isn't recommended), 2-4 levels of a "secondary" casting class like bard, 1-5 levels of Duskblade or Hexblade, along with full BAB classes until you meet the requirements.

When you actually get the Dragon Apotheothis at DD 10 you may gain the Dragon Type and its benefits but you retain your old type as an "Augmented" type which means you still keep your living construct traits.
Mordin
09-11-07, 08:53 PM That just wounds awesome to me. :D

I would however suggest using Duskblade to enter the class. Just my 2 cents.
CobaltDeathWolf
09-11-07, 10:07 PM thats what always confused me about the warforged, they're living constructs, but how can some of the abilities of classes even apply to them?
like the dread necro, or the dragon disciple? would they still have some living construct traits after their type changed? or would it be completely different?
Spikes01k
09-11-07, 10:59 PM Yes, a Warforged may enter Dragon Disciple. It does not need four levels of sorcerer to qualify although meeting the prereq. Knowledge may be tricky. Typically you'd enter DragonD with a single level of sorcerer (two is possible but more isn't recommended), 2-4 levels of a "secondary" casting class like bard, 1-5 levels of Duskblade or Hexblade, along with full BAB classes until you meet the requirements.

When you actually get the Dragon Apotheothis at DD 10 you may gain the Dragon Type and its benefits but you retain your old type as an "Augmented" type which means you still keep your living construct traits.

This is correct, as per the half dragon template, they keep all their original race's goodies.
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 06:58 AM The build she has come up with put her at spell caster not tank. So sorc is a better fit for what she wants. She plans on taking mithral body and adding twilight to her self after. She wants the more spells from sorc. Duskblade does work better for a tank build.
Xiuhcoatl
09-13-07, 07:24 AM A Sorceror/Dragon Disciple is a horrible combination. You lose ten levels of spellcasting, and have little to show for it besides enhanced durability.

A Hexblade 4/Dragon Disciple 10 is a rather good combination, though.
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 08:07 AM She is going to take PS feat. You get more castings of any level you can cast plus the class abilities and the 12 HD helps. It really isn't a bad build. She end with 10 levels of sorc and 5th level spells, AC5+3dex+4NA+ 1 magic= 23, going Natural attack and imp natural attack, which will give her a slam, 2 claws and a bite with no minuses. Not including Ability bonus,fly and the like.

I would worry to much she will go with duskblade most likely. She likes that class.
Xiuhcoatl
09-13-07, 08:45 AM PS feat?

A Sorc 10/Dragon Disciple 10 is a rather terrible build, no matter what feats you take.

There is literally nothing there that a wizard could not more easily achieve, or even a straight sorcerer.

Indeed, the latter is significantly more powerful than the build you suggested.
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 11:24 AM 1. PS is practic spellcaster gives upto +4 upto your HD on you caster level.

2. Now they will have more spell but that doesn't make them more powerful build.

DRAGON DISCIPLE
Hit Die: d12.
Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.
Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class.
Class Skills
The dragon disciple’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int) Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table: The Dragon Disciple
Level Base
Attack
Bonus Fort
Save Ref
Save Will
Save Special Bonus Spells
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Natural armor increase (+1) 1
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Ability boost (Str +2), claws and bite 1
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Breath weapon (2d8) 0
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Ability boost (Str +2), natural armor increase (+2) 1
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Blindsense 30 ft. 1
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Ability boost (Con +2) 1
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Breath weapon (4d8), natural armor increase (+3) 0
8th +6 +6 +2 +6 Ability boost (Int +2) 1
9th +6 +6 +3 +6 Wings 1
10th +7 +7 +3 +7 Blindsense 60 ft., dragon apotheosis 0

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the dragon disciple prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Bonus Spells: Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast.
If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each bonus spell as it is gained. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted.
Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect.
Claws and Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values below or the disciple’s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater.

Size Bite Damage Claw Damage
Small 1d4 1d3
Medium 1d6 1d4
Large 1d8 1d6

A dragon disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a dragon disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a –5 penalty on claw attacks. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to only –2.
Ability Boost (Ex): As a dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table: The Dragon Disciple.
These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.
Breath Weapon (Su): At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon. The type and shape depend on the dragon variety whose heritage he enjoys (see below). Regardless of the ancestor, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage of the appropriate energy type.
At 7th level, the damage increases to 4d8, and when a disciple attains dragon apotheosis at 10th level it reaches its full power at 6d8. Regardless of its strength, the breath weapon can be used only once per day. Use all the rules for dragon breath weapons except as specified here.
The DC of the breath weapon is 10 + class level + Con modifier.
A line-shaped breath weapon is 5 feet high, 5 feet wide, and 60 feet long. A cone-shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long.

Dragon Variety* Breath Weapon
Black Line of acid
Blue Line of lightning
Green Cone of corrosive gas (acid)
Red Cone of fire
White Cone of cold
Brass Line of fire
Bronze Line of lightning
Copper Line of acid
Gold Cone of fire
Silver Cone of cold
* Other varieties of dragon disciple are possible, using other dragon varieties as ancestors.

Blindsense (Ex): At 5th level, the dragon disciple gains blindsense with a range of 30 feet. Using nonvisual senses the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. He usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature.
Any opponent the dragon disciple cannot see still has total concealment against him, and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. At 10th level, the range of this ability increases to 60 feet.
Wings (Ex): At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability.
Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above).

Then at 14th level on her next feat level she could take that feat for half dragon that lets you use your breath weapon 1d4 rounds instead of once per day. And still have plenty of spell casting ability.
StevenO
09-13-07, 01:59 PM Dragon Disciple is not a class for the caster types inspite of requiring the ability to cast arcane spells. If you do decide you want to go the casting route you still need to maintain some martial edge otherwise the two sides will not work well together. A typical DD will HATE Sorcerer 10 BAB and hp while the Sorcerer gains almost nothing for their spellcasting (+2 CHA, seven more spell slots but no new spells) by taking DD 10. With the Dragon Disciple it may be possible to be a half decent caster but you still need to be a fighter.

The two+ casting builds I'd consider for Dragon Disciple:
1: Warrior*1/BattleSorcerer4/DD2/Abjurant Champion 5/ DD 3-10
2: Duskblade 10/ Dragon Disciple 10

The first gets you a +16 BAB and casting as a level 9 Battle Sorcerer (UA variant also in SRD) with the bonus slots going 2x2nd, 5x4th level and pretty good hp. A variation just uses Battle Sorcerer (BS5/DD3/AbC5/DD4-10) and gets you a 5th level spell which gets five extra slots but costs you +1 BAB which would mean no fourth attack and with AbC5 it also lowers you casting level.

The Second is straight forward and gets you a BAB +17 and 10th level Duskblade Casting. The variation is to get Abjurant Champ in there for some of the Duskblade levels but it works with a straight Duskblade just as well.

If you really want a sorcerer build I'd use a variation of the first. Sorcerer 5 gets you into DD. After DD4 (which has granted 3 bonus slots) your BAB will finally get high enough to take Abjurant Champ which you should finish to get casting as a Sorcerer 10 after which you can finish Dragon Disciple. Compared to option #1 your BAB is +14 which isn't terrible but five levels of d4 HD hurts your hp. You'd know one more spell of each level except 5th and have one more spell slot (those are what you lose compared to a battle sorcerer 10) but also can't cast in light armor and would have had to get the martial weapon for AbC some other way.
AtsuiShoto
09-13-07, 03:01 PM To those who suggest 4 levels of whatever before taking Dragon Disciple: bear in mind the 8 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana) required. The minimum for 8 ranks is 5 levels, no matter what.
nightwyrm
09-13-07, 03:25 PM Practiced spell caster just increases your caster level when casting a spell, you don't get extra spells or higher level spells. The DD doesn't get you more spells known or higher level spells. It just increases a spell slot. A 5 Sorc/10 DD would still only be able to cast 2nd level spells.

However, a warforge half-dragon is still pretty cool. It's a mecha-godzilla.
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 09:07 PM I understand that it is used mostly with fighter/ tank builds. But It give the sorc BAB and 12HD which does help the sorc. Spells of higher level aren't everything. If she wanted a nuker she would go sorc/ wizard/ Ulm magnus. To me this will give her a nice casters who doesn't worry about getting up close and personal.

To the spell post. I said extra castings not spells. I know PS only increases caster levels. But a +4 is better then no plus at all.

To the 8 ranks. Thanks I always mix them up when I count in my head.
ninjarabbit
09-14-07, 08:39 AM Personally I prefer duskblade5/abjurantchampion5/DD10 or hexblade5/abjurantchampion5/DD10, at least this way you'll be able to keep your caster level up without having to burn a feat on practiced spellcaster.
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 03:37 PM They don't like pro classes any way. The first one was last game. They say it just takes to long to get them. Mostly they go reg classes to get what they want or templates.
Fireclave
09-14-07, 04:25 PM The build she has come up with put her at spell caster not tank. So sorc is a better fit for what she wants. She plans on taking mithral body and adding twilight to her self after. She wants the more spells from sorc. Duskblade does work better for a tank build.

The above concept conflicts with the below build.

She is going to take PS feat. You get more castings of any level you can cast plus the class abilities and the 12 HD helps. It really isn't a bad build. She end with 10 levels of sorc and 5th level spells, AC5+3dex+4NA+ 1 magic= 23, going Natural attack and imp natural attack, which will give her a slam, 2 claws and a bite with no minuses. Not including Ability bonus, fly and the like.

If your wife wants to primarily be a spellcaster, Dragon Deciple is not the way to go. 5th level spells and 14 CL overall at 20th is not a bad end result, but it will be a slow grind getting to that point. Until then, she will have very subpar casting, very few spells known, will have to wait a long time to get new spells, and will have an extremely difficult time overcoming spell resistance.

However, her larger HD, 4 natural attacks, natural armor, composite plating, and improved physical stats, she will instead be a excellent martial charcter. Any spells she does cast will be of most use agumenting her martial ability and/or buffing her party. Basically, she would become a martial bard with only 3/4 CL, which is not bad at all, but not really a spellcaster.

However, if she wants to be a primary spellcaster with more survivabilty than a normal sorcerer and not have to use a bunch of prestige classes, 20 levels in battle sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) is probably the simplest solution. D8 HD, 3/4 Bab, full caster level progression, and only one less spell per day and spell known per level completely blows away what you lose by taking Dragon Deciple. And everything you can get from Dragon Deciple can be more than replicated with a few simple spells.
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 04:44 PM I let them pick spells from the Spell Comp when they are near a library when leveling for a fine. She has thought of that too. She always picks a few spells that don't roll SR for like orb of sound and the like. She like vortex of teeth too. There are feats that that give extra spells and bonus on caster level checks for SR. But she just uses the non SR spell once she don't get past there SR.Also plans on quicken breath if she gets the chance. Thaen she can use breath as a free action then cast then move. Should be fun for her that what it is about anyway. I'll tell her about that class she may go there next time. Right now she is playing straight wizard trying out a new spell casting system. They get to decide what the next PC theme will be. They want to all go the same class to see what the end result will be and how different the builds will be but they haven't decided yet.
Fireclave
09-14-07, 06:14 PM Also plans on quicken breath if she gets the chance. Thaen she can use breath as a free action then cast then move.
She'll be waiting along time for that to happen then. Before she can take Quicken Breath, she needs a breath weapon with a time delay expressed in rounds. So, she'll need to take the Dragon Breath feat first. Assuming she goes into Dragon Deciple as a Sorcerer, they earliest she can qualify for Dragon Breath is 15th, when she actually becomes a half-dragon. By the time she takes Quicken Breath, she'll be 18th level.

Instead, I suggest picking up the Dragon Breath spell. Not the nerfed one in the SC, but the version in the Draconomicon (my favorite offensive spell). It gives you several breath weapon uses per casting, does great damage, and as a very good duration, allowing you to cast it before you need it. And the delay between each breath is expressed in rounds, so quick breath would apply. It is a very powerful spell, so if you feel it needs a nerf, I suggest setting the DC of the breath weapon to the spell's DC (as written, the Draconomicon version has no expressed DC), and perhaps also limiting the spell to just one energy type (meaning you would need to learn four separate versions of the spell to get access to all four energy types). And best of all, she can get access to it as early as 6th level.
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 07:32 PM She could always do both. I think the DC for her breath is higher then the spell would be but that not a big thing. I really don't think she will get to 15th any. They most of the time get bored after 12th or there after. They don't like rolling high level PCs so if we get to high and some get killed and they just start over from first. We most go for 6 months to a year baring TPKs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_time 09-11-07, 09:16 AM	My wife wanted to be this as one of her PCs in the future so I said I would see if it was possible. No where does it say humanoid. To the Pro requirements she would just have to go sorc for 4 levels. So is it possible? thanks!
iceifur 09-11-07, 09:31 AM	It's perfectly viable from a mechanical standpoint. Non-dragon? Check. Living, corporeal creature? Check. Heck, the Half-Dragon template is one of the few that can be applied to Warforged. ;)
JellyPooga 09-11-07, 01:11 PM	Bear in mind that upon reaching Dragon Apotheothis at lvl. 10 she aquires the Dragon type and she will lose all her Living Construct traits...all those immunities are gone, she now eats, breathes and sleeps, she heals naturally, healing spells work normally, etc. Bizarrely, she will keep her Composite Plating (including the benefits of related feats like Mithral Body) and Fortification...:confused:
Ecalsneerg 09-11-07, 01:12 PM	Bear in mind that upon reaching Dragon Apotheothis at lvl. 10 she aquires the Dragon type and she will lose all her Living Construct traits...all those immunities are gone, she now eats, breathes and sleeps, she heals naturally, healing spells work normally, etc. It's like a bizarre Warforged version of Bicentennial Man...
StevenO 09-11-07, 07:38 PM	Yes, a Warforged may enter Dragon Disciple. It does not need four levels of sorcerer to qualify although meeting the prereq. Knowledge may be tricky. Typically you'd enter DragonD with a single level of sorcerer (two is possible but more isn't recommended), 2-4 levels of a "secondary" casting class like bard, 1-5 levels of Duskblade or Hexblade, along with full BAB classes until you meet the requirements. When you actually get the Dragon Apotheothis at DD 10 you may gain the Dragon Type and its benefits but you retain your old type as an "Augmented" type which means you still keep your living construct traits.
Mordin 09-11-07, 08:53 PM	That just wounds awesome to me. :D I would however suggest using Duskblade to enter the class. Just my 2 cents.
CobaltDeathWolf 09-11-07, 10:07 PM	thats what always confused me about the warforged, they're living constructs, but how can some of the abilities of classes even apply to them? like the dread necro, or the dragon disciple? would they still have some living construct traits after their type changed? or would it be completely different?
Spikes01k 09-11-07, 10:59 PM	Yes, a Warforged may enter Dragon Disciple. It does not need four levels of sorcerer to qualify although meeting the prereq. Knowledge may be tricky. Typically you'd enter DragonD with a single level of sorcerer (two is possible but more isn't recommended), 2-4 levels of a "secondary" casting class like bard, 1-5 levels of Duskblade or Hexblade, along with full BAB classes until you meet the requirements. When you actually get the Dragon Apotheothis at DD 10 you may gain the Dragon Type and its benefits but you retain your old type as an "Augmented" type which means you still keep your living construct traits. This is correct, as per the half dragon template, they keep all their original race's goodies.
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 06:58 AM	The build she has come up with put her at spell caster not tank. So sorc is a better fit for what she wants. She plans on taking mithral body and adding twilight to her self after. She wants the more spells from sorc. Duskblade does work better for a tank build.
Xiuhcoatl 09-13-07, 07:24 AM	A Sorceror/Dragon Disciple is a horrible combination. You lose ten levels of spellcasting, and have little to show for it besides enhanced durability. A Hexblade 4/Dragon Disciple 10 is a rather good combination, though.
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 08:07 AM	She is going to take PS feat. You get more castings of any level you can cast plus the class abilities and the 12 HD helps. It really isn't a bad build. She end with 10 levels of sorc and 5th level spells, AC5+3dex+4NA+ 1 magic= 23, going Natural attack and imp natural attack, which will give her a slam, 2 claws and a bite with no minuses. Not including Ability bonus,fly and the like. I would worry to much she will go with duskblade most likely. She likes that class.
Xiuhcoatl 09-13-07, 08:45 AM	PS feat? A Sorc 10/Dragon Disciple 10 is a rather terrible build, no matter what feats you take. There is literally nothing there that a wizard could not more easily achieve, or even a straight sorcerer. Indeed, the latter is significantly more powerful than the build you suggested.
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 11:24 AM	1. PS is practic spellcaster gives upto +4 upto your HD on you caster level. 2. Now they will have more spell but that doesn't make them more powerful build. DRAGON DISCIPLE Hit Die: d12. Requirements To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon). Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks. Languages: Draconic. Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class. Class Skills The dragon disciple’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int) Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Table: The Dragon Disciple Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Bonus Spells 1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Natural armor increase (+1) 1 2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Ability boost (Str +2), claws and bite 1 3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Breath weapon (2d8) 0 4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Ability boost (Str +2), natural armor increase (+2) 1 5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Blindsense 30 ft. 1 6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Ability boost (Con +2) 1 7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Breath weapon (4d8), natural armor increase (+3) 0 8th +6 +6 +2 +6 Ability boost (Int +2) 1 9th +6 +6 +3 +6 Wings 1 10th +7 +7 +3 +7 Blindsense 60 ft., dragon apotheosis 0 Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the dragon disciple prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Bonus Spells: Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast. If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each bonus spell as it is gained. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted. Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. Claws and Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values below or the disciple’s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater. Size Bite Damage Claw Damage Small 1d4 1d3 Medium 1d6 1d4 Large 1d8 1d6 A dragon disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a dragon disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a –5 penalty on claw attacks. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to only –2. Ability Boost (Ex): As a dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table: The Dragon Disciple. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement. Breath Weapon (Su): At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon. The type and shape depend on the dragon variety whose heritage he enjoys (see below). Regardless of the ancestor, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage of the appropriate energy type. At 7th level, the damage increases to 4d8, and when a disciple attains dragon apotheosis at 10th level it reaches its full power at 6d8. Regardless of its strength, the breath weapon can be used only once per day. Use all the rules for dragon breath weapons except as specified here. The DC of the breath weapon is 10 + class level + Con modifier. A line-shaped breath weapon is 5 feet high, 5 feet wide, and 60 feet long. A cone-shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long. Dragon Variety* Breath Weapon Black Line of acid Blue Line of lightning Green Cone of corrosive gas (acid) Red Cone of fire White Cone of cold Brass Line of fire Bronze Line of lightning Copper Line of acid Gold Cone of fire Silver Cone of cold * Other varieties of dragon disciple are possible, using other dragon varieties as ancestors. Blindsense (Ex): At 5th level, the dragon disciple gains blindsense with a range of 30 feet. Using nonvisual senses the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. He usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the dragon disciple cannot see still has total concealment against him, and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. At 10th level, the range of this ability increases to 60 feet. Wings (Ex): At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability. Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above). Then at 14th level on her next feat level she could take that feat for half dragon that lets you use your breath weapon 1d4 rounds instead of once per day. And still have plenty of spell casting ability.
StevenO 09-13-07, 01:59 PM	Dragon Disciple is not a class for the caster types inspite of requiring the ability to cast arcane spells. If you do decide you want to go the casting route you still need to maintain some martial edge otherwise the two sides will not work well together. A typical DD will HATE Sorcerer 10 BAB and hp while the Sorcerer gains almost nothing for their spellcasting (+2 CHA, seven more spell slots but no new spells) by taking DD 10. With the Dragon Disciple it may be possible to be a half decent caster but you still need to be a fighter. The two+ casting builds I'd consider for Dragon Disciple: 1: Warrior*1/BattleSorcerer4/DD2/Abjurant Champion 5/ DD 3-10 2: Duskblade 10/ Dragon Disciple 10 The first gets you a +16 BAB and casting as a level 9 Battle Sorcerer (UA variant also in SRD) with the bonus slots going 2x2nd, 5x4th level and pretty good hp. A variation just uses Battle Sorcerer (BS5/DD3/AbC5/DD4-10) and gets you a 5th level spell which gets five extra slots but costs you +1 BAB which would mean no fourth attack and with AbC5 it also lowers you casting level. The Second is straight forward and gets you a BAB +17 and 10th level Duskblade Casting. The variation is to get Abjurant Champ in there for some of the Duskblade levels but it works with a straight Duskblade just as well. If you really want a sorcerer build I'd use a variation of the first. Sorcerer 5 gets you into DD. After DD4 (which has granted 3 bonus slots) your BAB will finally get high enough to take Abjurant Champ which you should finish to get casting as a Sorcerer 10 after which you can finish Dragon Disciple. Compared to option #1 your BAB is +14 which isn't terrible but five levels of d4 HD hurts your hp. You'd know one more spell of each level except 5th and have one more spell slot (those are what you lose compared to a battle sorcerer 10) but also can't cast in light armor and would have had to get the martial weapon for AbC some other way.
AtsuiShoto 09-13-07, 03:01 PM	To those who suggest 4 levels of whatever before taking Dragon Disciple: bear in mind the 8 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana) required. The minimum for 8 ranks is 5 levels, no matter what.
nightwyrm 09-13-07, 03:25 PM	Practiced spell caster just increases your caster level when casting a spell, you don't get extra spells or higher level spells. The DD doesn't get you more spells known or higher level spells. It just increases a spell slot. A 5 Sorc/10 DD would still only be able to cast 2nd level spells. However, a warforge half-dragon is still pretty cool. It's a mecha-godzilla.
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 09:07 PM	I understand that it is used mostly with fighter/ tank builds. But It give the sorc BAB and 12HD which does help the sorc. Spells of higher level aren't everything. If she wanted a nuker she would go sorc/ wizard/ Ulm magnus. To me this will give her a nice casters who doesn't worry about getting up close and personal. To the spell post. I said extra castings not spells. I know PS only increases caster levels. But a +4 is better then no plus at all. To the 8 ranks. Thanks I always mix them up when I count in my head.
ninjarabbit 09-14-07, 08:39 AM	Personally I prefer duskblade5/abjurantchampion5/DD10 or hexblade5/abjurantchampion5/DD10, at least this way you'll be able to keep your caster level up without having to burn a feat on practiced spellcaster.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 03:37 PM	They don't like pro classes any way. The first one was last game. They say it just takes to long to get them. Mostly they go reg classes to get what they want or templates.
Fireclave 09-14-07, 04:25 PM	The build she has come up with put her at spell caster not tank. So sorc is a better fit for what she wants. She plans on taking mithral body and adding twilight to her self after. She wants the more spells from sorc. Duskblade does work better for a tank build. The above concept conflicts with the below build. She is going to take PS feat. You get more castings of any level you can cast plus the class abilities and the 12 HD helps. It really isn't a bad build. She end with 10 levels of sorc and 5th level spells, AC5+3dex+4NA+ 1 magic= 23, going Natural attack and imp natural attack, which will give her a slam, 2 claws and a bite with no minuses. Not including Ability bonus, fly and the like. If your wife wants to primarily be a spellcaster, Dragon Deciple is not the way to go. 5th level spells and 14 CL overall at 20th is not a bad end result, but it will be a slow grind getting to that point. Until then, she will have very subpar casting, very few spells known, will have to wait a long time to get new spells, and will have an extremely difficult time overcoming spell resistance. However, her larger HD, 4 natural attacks, natural armor, composite plating, and improved physical stats, she will instead be a excellent martial charcter. Any spells she does cast will be of most use agumenting her martial ability and/or buffing her party. Basically, she would become a martial bard with only 3/4 CL, which is not bad at all, but not really a spellcaster. However, if she wants to be a primary spellcaster with more survivabilty than a normal sorcerer and not have to use a bunch of prestige classes, 20 levels in battle sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) is probably the simplest solution. D8 HD, 3/4 Bab, full caster level progression, and only one less spell per day and spell known per level completely blows away what you lose by taking Dragon Deciple. And everything you can get from Dragon Deciple can be more than replicated with a few simple spells.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 04:44 PM	I let them pick spells from the Spell Comp when they are near a library when leveling for a fine. She has thought of that too. She always picks a few spells that don't roll SR for like orb of sound and the like. She like vortex of teeth too. There are feats that that give extra spells and bonus on caster level checks for SR. But she just uses the non SR spell once she don't get past there SR.Also plans on quicken breath if she gets the chance. Thaen she can use breath as a free action then cast then move. Should be fun for her that what it is about anyway. I'll tell her about that class she may go there next time. Right now she is playing straight wizard trying out a new spell casting system. They get to decide what the next PC theme will be. They want to all go the same class to see what the end result will be and how different the builds will be but they haven't decided yet.
Fireclave 09-14-07, 06:14 PM	Also plans on quicken breath if she gets the chance. Thaen she can use breath as a free action then cast then move. She'll be waiting along time for that to happen then. Before she can take Quicken Breath, she needs a breath weapon with a time delay expressed in rounds. So, she'll need to take the Dragon Breath feat first. Assuming she goes into Dragon Deciple as a Sorcerer, they earliest she can qualify for Dragon Breath is 15th, when she actually becomes a half-dragon. By the time she takes Quicken Breath, she'll be 18th level. Instead, I suggest picking up the Dragon Breath spell. Not the nerfed one in the SC, but the version in the Draconomicon (my favorite offensive spell). It gives you several breath weapon uses per casting, does great damage, and as a very good duration, allowing you to cast it before you need it. And the delay between each breath is expressed in rounds, so quick breath would apply. It is a very powerful spell, so if you feel it needs a nerf, I suggest setting the DC of the breath weapon to the spell's DC (as written, the Draconomicon version has no expressed DC), and perhaps also limiting the spell to just one energy type (meaning you would need to learn four separate versions of the spell to get access to all four energy types). And best of all, she can get access to it as early as 6th level.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 07:32 PM	She could always do both. I think the DC for her breath is higher then the spell would be but that not a big thing. I really don't think she will get to 15th any. They most of the time get bored after 12th or there after. They don't like rolling high level PCs so if we get to high and some get killed and they just start over from first. We most go for 6 months to a year baring TPKs.