Warlocks and Arcane Tricksters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warlocks and Arcane Tricksters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JellyPooga
08-22-07, 11:46 AM Or more specifically, just Arcane Tricksters;

The Requirements for this PrC say that you need to be able to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher (note that this is opposed to the usual terminology of able to cast 3rd level arcane spells).

Now in Complete Arcane it states that the ability to use a Spell-Like ability can qualify you for certain requisites...e.g. having a Mage Hand SLA would fulfill the Arcane Tricksters requirement for being able to cast it.

So my question is this (if you haven't guessed already);

Would an SLA fulfill the requirement for being able to cast at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher or not?

My own inclination is to say that, yes, it can...but then I'm biased because I want it to because of a build I have in mind. I just wanted some opinions beore I set my heart on it.

If you were curious, the build is a Kobold Rogue/Warlock with the Shadow-Walker template.
The template grants Dimension Door as an SLA at 3rd level, which (in turn) grants access to Arcane Trickster at 5th (potentially) if the answer to my question is positive.
Strangely enough, the overall build works out very nicely (things just seem to fit in place perfectly) as, amongst other things, after Arcane Trickster, he goes into Telflammar Shadowlord, gaining Shadow Discorporation at character level 20 (which I thought was a nice capstone to the build).
bkdubs123
08-22-07, 12:46 PM Hmm, I would be inclined to say that yes an SLA would qualify you for Arcane Trickster. Even if you didn't have that template I would say that a 5th (or 6th however it works out properly) level Warlock could qualify you for that prerequisite seeing as how the Eldritch Blast would then count as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Marcus Majarra
08-22-07, 12:49 PM No, the ability to use spell-like abilities never allows you to meet a requirement of casting spells of a given level, although they can allow you to meet a requirement of casting a specific spell.

For example, if a PrC requires that you be able to cast magic missile and you can use this spell as a spell-like ability, you meet the requirement. However, if the PrC required that you be able to cast 1st-level spells, the spell-like ability would not help you meet the requirement.
TiwazTyrsfist
08-22-07, 01:01 PM RAW, no, it doesn't.
Because the requirement is you must be able to 'Cast a 3rd level spell' and using a spell-like ability is not, technically, casting a spell.

However, I really see no reason that a DM would not allow you to houserule change this.

Arcane trickster is perfect for a warlock. If warlock had existed when Arcane Trickster written, I think it would have been written to allow warlocks.
bkdubs123
08-22-07, 01:05 PM You're right, Marcus, but in the strange instance of the Arcane Trickster the prerequisite is written as: "at least one arcane spell of third level or higher."

I don't think I've ever seen another prerequisite like that before. Its a tough call for me to make. Looking at it now, I almost want to say that since it specifies spell that no spell-like ability will work here, but I can't be sure...

What if you were some monster with 3 rogue levels, for example. As part of your racial HD (3d8 let's say) you have Mage Hand the spell-like ability 3/day, Tenser's Floating Disk the spell-like ability 1/day, and Lightning Bolt the spell-like ability 1/day. Does that qualify you for the Arcane Trickster PRC?
ff6shadow
08-22-07, 01:07 PM Pg 72. Complete Arcane

requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast ("Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells," for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations - not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

Thats the official rule. Personally, as a DM, I've allowed a Warlock to move into Arcane Trickster. It's hardly a game breaking combination.
Shadowhowler
08-22-07, 04:50 PM I have to agree with most here...

If you (or your DM) is a RAW monkie, then no, the Warlock (or your template) won't get you into Arcane Trickster.

However, as was suggested above by another poster, that is becuase the Arcane Trickster is one of the first PrC's writen, it was writen LONG before the Warlock exisited, and I, and I think most DM's, would let a Warlock enter the Arcane Trickster PrC, even without the benifit of your template.
Jaxgaret
08-22-07, 10:14 PM I am going to go ahead and agree that by the RAW it does not work, but I would certainly allow it in my campaigns.

In fact, I might even encourage it... it seems like a nice synergistic class combination.
Shadowhowler
08-23-07, 08:33 AM I am going to go ahead and agree that by the RAW it does not work, but I would certainly allow it in my campaigns.

In fact, I might even encourage it... it seems like a nice synergistic class combination.

Indeed.

This is exactly what I was going for with the Rogue/Warlock I was playing... until I had to quite the game a little over a week ago.

:weep:

Now I shall never see the coolness I had planed.
Khatoblepas
08-23-07, 10:26 AM Doesn't Telflammar Shadowlord grant upto 3rd level spellcasting?

You could enter that as a Rogue/Warlock, surely, and use the spellcasting to enter Arcane Trickster? I mean, if you were going to take the five levels anyway....?
bkdubs123
08-23-07, 12:24 PM There are myriad other means to get the spellcasting requirements, he was looking to go into Trickster early and with only Rogue and Warlock levels though. I'm still sitting on this fence with this one though, and am not so sure RAW really rules this out just yet.
JellyPooga
08-23-07, 12:27 PM Doesn't Telflammar Shadowlord grant upto 3rd level spellcasting?

You could enter that as a Rogue/Warlock, surely, and use the spellcasting to enter Arcane Trickster? I mean, if you were going to take the five levels anyway....?

Yeah, but T.Shadowlord also requires 4 feats and 10 ranks in 2 skills...that means Rogue 5/Warlock 4, or something, before hitting T.S., which means a Character Level of 15 before hitting Arcane Trickster. The build is more designed on taking A.T. (with it's otherwise minimal entry requirements) after as few levels of Rogue and Warlock as possible and then taking T.S. afterwards.
High Octane
08-23-07, 12:39 PM Poor wording.

WotC is famous for it. It should have said "Able to cast 3rd level spells."

A spell like ability has no spell level. It just an ability. It just happens to work exactly like a spell that DOES have a level.

It isn't a 3rd level spell like ability. It is just a spell like ability. It isn't even arcane.
bkdubs123
08-23-07, 01:10 PM Eldritch Blast has a spell level (or a spell level equivalent) though. Does that not work at all either? Of course we all know what it should have said, but that's simply not what it says. Whether what it does say makes much of a difference however, remains to be seen.
Mariko
09-08-07, 09:01 PM I think that, depending on what your DM says, then yes, having a SLA equivelent would work. warlock and arcane trickster would stack well IMHO. I'm currently playing a rogue/sorc/arcane trickster, and it is so much fun. I love rolling a bunch o' d6's for sneak attack. Good times.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JellyPooga 08-22-07, 11:46 AM	Or more specifically, just Arcane Tricksters; The Requirements for this PrC say that you need to be able to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher (note that this is opposed to the usual terminology of able to cast 3rd level arcane spells). Now in Complete Arcane it states that the ability to use a Spell-Like ability can qualify you for certain requisites...e.g. having a Mage Hand SLA would fulfill the Arcane Tricksters requirement for being able to cast it. So my question is this (if you haven't guessed already); Would an SLA fulfill the requirement for being able to cast at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher or not? My own inclination is to say that, yes, it can...but then I'm biased because I want it to because of a build I have in mind. I just wanted some opinions beore I set my heart on it. If you were curious, the build is a Kobold Rogue/Warlock with the Shadow-Walker template. The template grants Dimension Door as an SLA at 3rd level, which (in turn) grants access to Arcane Trickster at 5th (potentially) if the answer to my question is positive. Strangely enough, the overall build works out very nicely (things just seem to fit in place perfectly) as, amongst other things, after Arcane Trickster, he goes into Telflammar Shadowlord, gaining Shadow Discorporation at character level 20 (which I thought was a nice capstone to the build).
bkdubs123 08-22-07, 12:46 PM	Hmm, I would be inclined to say that yes an SLA would qualify you for Arcane Trickster. Even if you didn't have that template I would say that a 5th (or 6th however it works out properly) level Warlock could qualify you for that prerequisite seeing as how the Eldritch Blast would then count as a 3rd level Arcane Spell.
Marcus Majarra 08-22-07, 12:49 PM	No, the ability to use spell-like abilities never allows you to meet a requirement of casting spells of a given level, although they can allow you to meet a requirement of casting a specific spell. For example, if a PrC requires that you be able to cast magic missile and you can use this spell as a spell-like ability, you meet the requirement. However, if the PrC required that you be able to cast 1st-level spells, the spell-like ability would not help you meet the requirement.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-22-07, 01:01 PM	RAW, no, it doesn't. Because the requirement is you must be able to 'Cast a 3rd level spell' and using a spell-like ability is not, technically, casting a spell. However, I really see no reason that a DM would not allow you to houserule change this. Arcane trickster is perfect for a warlock. If warlock had existed when Arcane Trickster written, I think it would have been written to allow warlocks.
bkdubs123 08-22-07, 01:05 PM	You're right, Marcus, but in the strange instance of the Arcane Trickster the prerequisite is written as: "at least one arcane spell of third level or higher." I don't think I've ever seen another prerequisite like that before. Its a tough call for me to make. Looking at it now, I almost want to say that since it specifies spell that no spell-like ability will work here, but I can't be sure... What if you were some monster with 3 rogue levels, for example. As part of your racial HD (3d8 let's say) you have Mage Hand the spell-like ability 3/day, Tenser's Floating Disk the spell-like ability 1/day, and Lightning Bolt the spell-like ability 1/day. Does that qualify you for the Arcane Trickster PRC?
ff6shadow 08-22-07, 01:07 PM	Pg 72. Complete Arcane requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast ("Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells," for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations - not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher. Thats the official rule. Personally, as a DM, I've allowed a Warlock to move into Arcane Trickster. It's hardly a game breaking combination.
Shadowhowler 08-22-07, 04:50 PM	I have to agree with most here... If you (or your DM) is a RAW monkie, then no, the Warlock (or your template) won't get you into Arcane Trickster. However, as was suggested above by another poster, that is becuase the Arcane Trickster is one of the first PrC's writen, it was writen LONG before the Warlock exisited, and I, and I think most DM's, would let a Warlock enter the Arcane Trickster PrC, even without the benifit of your template.
Jaxgaret 08-22-07, 10:14 PM	I am going to go ahead and agree that by the RAW it does not work, but I would certainly allow it in my campaigns. In fact, I might even encourage it... it seems like a nice synergistic class combination.
Shadowhowler 08-23-07, 08:33 AM	I am going to go ahead and agree that by the RAW it does not work, but I would certainly allow it in my campaigns. In fact, I might even encourage it... it seems like a nice synergistic class combination. Indeed. This is exactly what I was going for with the Rogue/Warlock I was playing... until I had to quite the game a little over a week ago. :weep: Now I shall never see the coolness I had planed.
Khatoblepas 08-23-07, 10:26 AM	Doesn't Telflammar Shadowlord grant upto 3rd level spellcasting? You could enter that as a Rogue/Warlock, surely, and use the spellcasting to enter Arcane Trickster? I mean, if you were going to take the five levels anyway....?
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 12:24 PM	There are myriad other means to get the spellcasting requirements, he was looking to go into Trickster early and with only Rogue and Warlock levels though. I'm still sitting on this fence with this one though, and am not so sure RAW really rules this out just yet.
JellyPooga 08-23-07, 12:27 PM	Doesn't Telflammar Shadowlord grant upto 3rd level spellcasting? You could enter that as a Rogue/Warlock, surely, and use the spellcasting to enter Arcane Trickster? I mean, if you were going to take the five levels anyway....? Yeah, but T.Shadowlord also requires 4 feats and 10 ranks in 2 skills...that means Rogue 5/Warlock 4, or something, before hitting T.S., which means a Character Level of 15 before hitting Arcane Trickster. The build is more designed on taking A.T. (with it's otherwise minimal entry requirements) after as few levels of Rogue and Warlock as possible and then taking T.S. afterwards.
High Octane 08-23-07, 12:39 PM	Poor wording. WotC is famous for it. It should have said "Able to cast 3rd level spells." A spell like ability has no spell level. It just an ability. It just happens to work exactly like a spell that DOES have a level. It isn't a 3rd level spell like ability. It is just a spell like ability. It isn't even arcane.
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 01:10 PM	Eldritch Blast has a spell level (or a spell level equivalent) though. Does that not work at all either? Of course we all know what it should have said, but that's simply not what it says. Whether what it does say makes much of a difference however, remains to be seen.
Mariko 09-08-07, 09:01 PM	I think that, depending on what your DM says, then yes, having a SLA equivelent would work. warlock and arcane trickster would stack well IMHO. I'm currently playing a rogue/sorc/arcane trickster, and it is so much fun. I love rolling a bunch o' d6's for sneak attack. Good times.