Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mercurius 03-29-08, 01:53 PM	I've got a question about how creatures with the [Shapechanger] subtype make use of the War Shaper abilities. The abilities are only useable while the War Shaper is in a form other than his normal form. But what happens when the War Shaper is a Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures), Shifter, or Changeling? Presumably, any time a Changeling isn't appearing as a changeling, he'd get the bonus. Every time the Shifter was actually shifting, he'd get the bonus. I suppose the Hengeyokai would get the bonus so long as he was in only a couple of his forms, but which forms? The hybrid and animal? The human and animal? The human and hybrid? Has there been any official on this, and if not, what are your thoughts?
dman11235 03-29-08, 02:18 PM	Well, when is he in an alternate form? That's when he gains the benefits of the PrC.
Mercurius 03-29-08, 02:36 PM	Yes, but what is his alternate form? Technically, every form is an "alternate form" if you've got more than one... I presume the PrC means something other than the character's natural form. Hengeyokai, especially, don't really have a natural form. Or rather, they don't say which one it is. They can shift between human, animal, and hybrid forms easily, so which one it is I'm a little unclear on.
Slaunyeh 03-29-08, 02:40 PM	If there was any doubt: Yes, Changelings break the Warshaper prc. Badly. :)
DonThelonious 03-29-08, 09:03 PM	First off the ability functions ANY time the character is not in his natural form. As for the Hengeyokai I am not all that familiar with the oriental settings, but as a DM I would have to say that the player would have to declare one of his forms his "natural" form, and once chosen cannot be changed. I have been mulling over the idea of dipping my D-Zilla into warshaper for 2 levels so he gets Morphic Immunity, Morphic Weapons, and Morphic Body abilities. Immunity to crits in all forms, the ability to increase my natural weapon damage (not to mention give myself new natural weapons:D), and a permenant +4 Str/Con in all form sounds well worth it.
Cartigan 03-30-08, 12:20 AM	I would say the Changeling doesn't get the bonuses as they don't actually have an alternate form. Disguise Self doesn't really give you an alternate form, and is below the standard qualification of polymorph equivalent ability. As for the Hengeyokai I am not all that familiar with the oriental settings, but as a DM I would have to say that the player would have to declare one of his forms his "natural" form, and once chosen cannot be changed. Why are we even discussing Hengeyokai, the oriental Lycanthropes - a 3.5 creature that have the same problem and qualify for the Warshaper. The original form I assume is the natural form and anything that requires a polymorph equivalent ability to reach is the alternate form - hybrid and animal forms.
Mercurius 03-30-08, 10:31 AM	We're discussing hengeyokai because I'm running a game with Hengeyokai PCs and one of them is planning on taking the War Shaper, partially from my recommendation. Similarly, you don't need to know polymorph to get into the PrC, you can have the Shapechanger subtype, which both Shifters and Changelings have. Considering that the official stance by Rich Baker (last I heard, at least) is that naturally male changelings in a female form can actually become pregnant, I'd say the intent of their abilities is to use existing mechanics to provide for most of the ways in which their shapechanging interacts with the mechanics of the game. It looks like there isn't actually any kind of ruling on this. Since, IMC, the hengeyokai used to be humans until their souls were ripped out and put into animal bodies, I think it's safe to say that the hybrid form is still an "alternate" form, and he'll get the bonus while he's in it. If it proves to be too much, we should be fine about fixing it.
teshen 03-30-08, 06:39 PM	I would say the Changeling doesn't get the bonuses as they don't actually have an alternate form. Disguise Self doesn't really give you an alternate form, and is below the standard qualification of polymorph equivalent ability.As the OP pointed out, they have the shapechanger subtype and that is all that is required. In this case, it would probably anytime they are using their disguise self ability since it is a real change in their body rather than an illusory effect. So, yes, as Slaunyeh put it, changelings break warshaper hard... but only sort of from my view. Yes the abilities are nice... but the changeling is a race with one nifty spell like ability and a few social bonuses... being able to use their racial ability to grow large claws and fangs and have bonuses to physical stats is certainly nice... but other than the fasting healing, I've seen stronger at level 8. Why are we even discussing Hengeyokai, the oriental Lycanthropes - a 3.5 creature that have the same problem and qualify for the Warshaper. The original form I assume is the natural form and anything that requires a polymorph equivalent ability to reach is the alternate form - hybrid and animal forms.Because they are 3.5 compatable now and have the shapechanger subtype? I believe their human form counts as their natural form and their hybrid and animal forms count as their alternate forms. We're discussing hengeyokai because I'm running a game with Hengeyokai PCs and one of them is planning on taking the War Shaper, partially from my recommendation.Cool. I've always liked the hengeyokai. Similarly, you don't need to know polymorph to get into the PrC, you can have the Shapechanger subtype, which both Shifters and Changelings have. Considering that the official stance by Rich Baker (last I heard, at least) is that naturally male changelings in a female form can actually become pregnant, I'd say the intent of their abilities is to use existing mechanics to provide for most of the ways in which their shapechanging interacts with the mechanics of the game. It looks like there isn't actually any kind of ruling on this. Since, IMC, the hengeyokai used to be humans until their souls were ripped out and put into animal bodies, I think it's safe to say that the hybrid form is still an "alternate" form, and he'll get the bonus while he's in it. If it proves to be too much, we should be fine about fixing it.I believe, as I said above, that their human form is natural and their other forms are 'alternate' after reading the description of the ability from OA. And good luck with your game. Oh... and also tibbits have the shapechanger subtype I think... they're nifty, not awesome, but nifty.
Cartigan 03-31-08, 03:14 PM	As the OP pointed out, they have the shapechanger subtype and that is all that is required. That is technically the truth, but I would rule they still can't do it because their Minor Change Shape ability doesn't mimic polymorph (which all other requirements do). Vampires' Alternate Form doesn't qualify for the class and it is far more powerful than Minor Change Shape. Or more appropriately: sure, you qualify for Warshaper, but you can't use the class features because you don't change forms. Because they are 3.5 compatable now and have the shapechanger subtype? I disagree with the "anything 3.0 not updated to 3.5 works in 3.5 by default" argument on the most base of levels. It just doesn't work because there are a number of changes between 3.0 and 3.5.
Mercurius 03-31-08, 08:11 PM	I disagree with the "anything 3.0 not updated to 3.5 works in 3.5 by default" argument on the most base of levels. It just doesn't work because there are a number of changes between 3.0 and 3.5. Considering there was an issue of Dragon Magazine that updated Oriental Adventures to 3.5, I'd say that they're compatible. What with them being 3.5 updated and all. *shrug* I think I've got enough of an idea. I'll assume that the human form is the natural form for my Hengeyokai pcs...
NoldorForce 03-31-08, 11:22 PM	That is technically the truth, but I would rule they still can't do it because their Minor Change Shape ability doesn't mimic polymorph (which all other requirements do).Actually, only two abilities mimic polymorph, and both are obvious. (Polymorph as the spell or as an SLA.)Vampires' Alternate Form doesn't qualify for the class and it is far more powerful than Minor Change Shape.That's not the changeling's fault; it's the vampire's fault for not having the Shapechanger subtype (which represents a rather broad umbrella of abilities).Or more appropriately: sure, you qualify for Warshaper, but you can't use the class features because you don't change forms.Prove it. Especially when the text notes that you do in fact make physical alterations with Minor Change Shape. And when Races of Eberron repeatedly refers to the multiple "forms" that changelings can take (including their "natural form").
Daehan 03-31-08, 11:37 PM	I'd also like to add the following: All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own (which for doppelganger and phasm warshapers is most of the time). The above text doesn't mention anything about "alternate form". A form other than her own is not the same as alternate form. Also the text about doppelgangers would also support the case for changelings as their minor shapechange is the same as the doppelgangers except they can only change into other medium humanoids, whereas a doppelganger can change into small and medium humanoids.
Cartigan 04-01-08, 04:25 PM	(which represents a rather broad umbrella of abilities). Not particularly. Prove it. Especially when the text notes that you do in fact make physical alterations with Minor Change Shape. Yes, congratulations, you look like a person. You gain nothing. Not wings, not natural attacks, not swim speed nor special attacks nor qualities. You just look different. There is no actual different form. It's a failure to properly describe what is happening. And when Races of Eberron repeatedly refers to the multiple "forms" that changelings can take (including their "natural form"). Those "other forms" being "other humanoids that don't look too different from a Changeling or you can't 'change' into them." A Changeling can maybe look like a Human or Elf. Maybe Orc. A short one might make Halfling. If a Changeling can qualify for and use Warshaper, I would rule so can a Vampire, regardless of the rules because it just isn't fair that a race with a far, far less powerful ability can qualify because of the highly irrelevant shapechanger subtype qualification that was probably meant to be removed but wasn't (since they cover any way a shapechanger subtype creature could transform - not to mention they specifically list other shapechanger subtype creatures that would already have been covered by the all-encompassing subtype requirement).
Cartigan 04-01-08, 04:29 PM	Also the text about doppelgangers would also support the case for changelings as their minor shapechange is the same as the doppelgangers except they can only change into other medium humanoids, whereas a doppelganger can change into small and medium humanoids. I think you might want to reread those abilities. Change Shape lets you literally change into a different creature. Minor Change Shape only lets you look like a different creature, and in a limited way since it mimics Disguise Self. You can't be a Lizardman or other Humanoid with weird features, and Dwarves, Halflings, and possibly Orcs are out because of size differences.
teshen 04-02-08, 03:41 AM	. . . I think you might want to reread those abilities. Change Shape lets you literally change into a different creature. Minor Change Shape only lets you look like a different creature, and in a limited way since it mimics Disguise Self. . . . . . Yes, congratulations, you look like a person. You gain nothing. Not wings, not natural attacks, not swim speed nor special attacks nor qualities. You just look different. There is no actual different form. It's a failure to properly describe what is happening. . . . Those "other forms" being "other humanoids that don't look too different from a Changeling or you can't 'change' into them." A Changeling can maybe look like a Human or Elf. Maybe Orc. A short one might make Halfling. . . Alright. Lets take a look at what's happening then. Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their posessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. . . So their ability is like the spell, but it isn't the spell. It's a lesser version of what a doppleganger does... and they qualify for warshaper as well. If a Changeling can qualify for and use Warshaper, I would rule so can a Vampire, regardless of the rules because it just isn't fair that a race with a far, far less powerful ability can qualify because of the highly irrelevant shapechanger subtype qualification that was probably meant to be removed but wasn't (since they cover any way a shapechanger subtype creature could transform - not to mention they specifically list other shapechanger subtype creatures that would already have been covered by the all-encompassing subtype requirement).Well, if you want to house rule it, then fine. I'm starting to wonder... do you disagree to just be disagreeable? :confused:
Cartigan 04-02-08, 09:39 AM	So their ability is like the spell, but it isn't the spell. Only in that they can naturally mimic the spell abilities. but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. You look like an Elf, but you don't take the form of an Elf. You have no alternate form. The problem is a lack of proper varied words in the English language. Appearance would be a far better word to use here because you don't change anything but your appearance. You can't because the ability isn't that powerful. It's a lesser version of what a doppleganger does... and they qualify for warshaper as well. No, it's not. They would also qualify because Change Shape is a qualifier, which it actually lets you change form - Minor Change Shape doesn't. Minor Change Shape is nothing like Change Shape. The editors probably just wanted to set up some sort of asinine relationship between shapechangers and make people think that it is.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-02-08, 11:15 AM	Changelings clearly qualify and can keep their warshaper powers running indefinitely if they want to. This is perhaps best invoked by shading the skin green. I'm beginning to suspect that early on in his D&D days, Cartigan played a terribly inept spellcaster that got wiped out by a melee character, and now carries an eternal grudge against melee units that don't suck. Any time a melee character option is discussed that isn't completely pathetic, you can count on him running in to say it doesn't work, or it's broken, when it's obvious that neither are true.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 11:32 AM	I'm beginning to suspect that early on in his D&D days, Cartigan played a terribly inept spellcaster that got wiped out by a melee character, and now carries an eternal grudge against melee units that don't suck. And I think Shaggy suffers from delusions of grandeur. This has nothing to do with melee or spellcasting. You can be a spellcaster and be a Warshaper. This has to do with the incorrect wording of the Changeling ability, the incorrect interpretation of what the ability does, and the brokenness if you are allowed to use Changeling with Warshaper.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-02-08, 11:41 AM	Lending weight to my suspicion that Cartigan once played a caster that got horribly owned... Of course you can be a spellcaster and be a warshaper. You just wouldn't want to. Warshaper is nice for melees and could possibly be useful for trap-prone skillmonkeys, but it's totally not worth loss of caster levels and spell access. It's available to casters but it's beneath most of them... not a caster class. And you know, when the rules explicitly state something works a certain way, what you want them to say has no bearing on the situation. But just out of curiosity, how do you figure it's broken anyway? Do you even know what broken is? Showing up vanilla human fighter isn't it because everything shows up vanilla human fighter, fighter's the class that's broken and it's broken in the wrong direction. Seriously, what's broken about changeling warshaper that isn't just using "broken" as a buzzword to mean "I don't like what it can do so I'm dismissing it as garbage out of hand"?
teshen 04-02-08, 12:10 PM	So their ability is like the spell, but it isn't the spell.Only in that they can naturally mimic the spell abilities.So I'm glad that you agree that as a super natural ability they make minor physical alterations to their body and can be one foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. while not changing their body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to them. They could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. You look like an Elf, but you don't take the form of an Elf. You have no alternate form. The problem is a lack of proper varied words in the English language. Appearance would be a far better word to use here because you don't change anything but your appearance. You can't because the ability isn't that powerful.What does appearance hinge upon in real life? Skeletal structure is part of it... the musculature underneath is part of it as well. Since this is a physical alteration when the changelings transform, they are elongating/contracting/expanding the underlying muscle and bone to achieve this effect and altering the pigments of their skin and eyes and growing/assigning a bunch of cells that mimic hair. Just because an observer only sees them grow or shrink a foot, or change colors doesn't mean that, biologically, a lot of stuff isn't happening. More of less the same thing happens with every creature that changes his shape. A doppleganger can just change it more. A wildshaper can alter his even more so... and add and subtract mass, something neither changeling nor dopplegangers can seem to do... but they still change their shapes. They [dopplegangers] would also qualify because Change Shape is a qualifier, which it actually lets you change form - Minor Change Shape doesn't. Minor Change Shape is nothing like Change Shape. The editors probably just wanted to set up some sort of asinine relationship between shapechangers and make people think that it is.And changelings, being distantly related to dopplegangers, have a lesser form of change shape. That is what the ability is meant to be. It is called Minor Change Shape because it is the Change Shape ability with more limits. Basic reading comprehension of both the fluff for the race and the description of the ability should garner you that much... the fact that you don't like it, doesn't make it not so. And I think that's the actual crux of the matter... how you want it to work rather than how it actually works. I could be wrong, though. You might have originally read the entries for the abilities, saw 'as disguise self' and dismissed it. And now you are resistant to changing your mind because you do not wish to admit that you're not correct. At times I've been wrong about the game system... sometimes to my pleasant surprise and sometimes to my chagrin. But when given proof that I'm wrong, I'm (oftentimes) willing to change. . . . Of course you can be a spellcaster and be a warshaper. You just wouldn't want to. Warshaper is nice for melees and could possibly be useful for trap-prone skillmonkeys, but it's totally not worth loss of caster levels and spell access. It's available to casters but it's beneath most of them... not a caster class. . . Agreed... Mostly. I've seen a few druids take the dip into warshaper to add a little extra to their wildshaping. It puts them behind on spellcasting a little, but it has its uses. As for your skillmonkeys comment, yes, I find the idea terribly intriguing... a dark changeling with level buy off and mostly either rogue or factorum with four levels in warshaper would be really nifty. Of course, a changeling barbarian/warshaper/frenzied beserker would be nice/pretty mean, too.
Damned slayer 04-02-08, 12:34 PM	Considering there was an issue of Dragon Magazine that updated Oriental Adventures to 3.5, I'd say that they're compatible. What with them being 3.5 updated and all. *shrug* I think I've got enough of an idea. I'll assume that the human form is the natural form for my Hengeyokai pcs... I'm about to start an oriental campain could you please tell me which issue it was?
teshen 04-02-08, 01:04 PM	I'm about to start an oriental campain could you please tell me which issue it was?Dragon 318. Good luck and happy gaming.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 01:52 PM	Lending weight to my suspicion that Cartigan once played a caster that got horribly owned... Aside from the fact I have never played a caster and you live in some fantasy world. Of course you can be a spellcaster and be a warshaper. You just wouldn't want to. Maybe if you were a Transmutation specialist, though then Transmorgifier might be better, or Master Specialist, but none of this - not even yours - is either here or there. And you know, when the rules explicitly state something works a certain way, what you want them to say has no bearing on the situation. But just out of curiosity, how do you figure it's broken anyway? a) Changeling doesn't actually change form as through Change Shape or Polymorph or Polymorph like ability (Change Shape, Wild Shape, etc). He just looks different - literally. The form doesn't change, just the most generally appearance. b) Due to fact a, the Changeling may just say they are always in alternate form - even without bothering to really change their looks. "Oh, I have green skin, I'm in an alternate form." "Only because the editors are idiots." So I'm glad that you agree that as a super natural ability they make minor physical alterations to their body and can be one foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. while not changing their body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to them. They could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. Keyword: look. Change Shape, Alternate Form, Polymorph, Wildshape, etc make you en entirely different person - or creature rather. What does appearance hinge upon in real life? Skeletal structure is part of it... the musculature underneath is part of it as well. Since this is a physical alteration when the changelings transform, they are elongating/contracting/expanding the underlying muscle and bone to achieve this effect and altering the pigments of their skin and eyes and growing/assigning a bunch of cells that mimic hair. Just because an observer only sees them grow or shrink a foot, or change colors doesn't mean that, biologically, a lot of stuff isn't happening. But they can't grow a tail, claws, snapping jaws, or other natural weapons. And here is another problem with certain D&D arguments - improper comparisons to "real life." Even if D&D wasn't abstracted, things like this couldn't be directly related to real life like you are doing because there is no real life parallel. More of less the same thing happens with every creature that changes his shape. A doppleganger can just change it more. A wildshaper can alter his even more so... and add and subtract mass, something neither changeling nor dopplegangers can seem to do... but they still change their shapes. Uh no, you arn't getting it. Those abilities allow you to change forms completely. You gain the abilities of the new form because you are the new form - you don't just look like it. Disguise Self isn't even as powerful as Alter Self, which is a wannabe Polymorph. And changelings, being distantly related to dopplegangers, have a lesser form of change shape. That is what the ability is meant to be. It is called Minor Change Shape because it is the Change Shape ability with more limits. Too bad it isn't related to Change Shape mechanically - at all. And now you are resistant to changing your mind because you do not wish to admit that you're not correct. Not correct in what? Changing your appearance to look like an Elf with Minor Change Shape is not the same as turning into an Elf with Change Shape? And I have already made it clear that this is my opinion in my first bloody post. You people are trying to argue that my opinion is wrong. And again to the topic, the Oriental Lycanthropes are Lycanthropes - they qualify.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-02-08, 01:54 PM	You keep saying the changeling only changes what they look like. This is explicitly contradicted in the rules. Any conclusions drawn from that initial false premise are BS. You've got no ground to stand on, here. I know it sucks being wrong again and again and people seeing it, but saying I have delusions of grandeur and live in a fantasy world doesn't change that you're wrong here.
Damned slayer 04-02-08, 01:59 PM	a) Changeling doesn't actually change form as through Change Shape or Polymorph or Polymorph like ability (Change Shape, Wild Shape, etc). He just looks different - literally. The form doesn't change, just the most generally appearance. b) Due to fact a, the Changeling may just say they are always in alternate form - even without bothering to really change their looks. "Oh, I have green skin, I'm in an alternate form." "Only because the editors are idiots." from what was quoted Originally Posted by Eberron Campaign Setting Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their posessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. . . they do not disguise themselves they actually change you are free to house rule that they couldn't qualifie in your game but by strict reading they CAN alter their form NOT disguise it I'm AFB so I don't have warshaper requirement with me
Cartigan 04-02-08, 02:02 PM	they do not disguise themselves they actually change They change their face, skin color and texture and size - only within limits of Disguise Self. I disagree that that gives them an alternate form as the alternate form term is used by everyone else but the weak-morph Changeling.
teshen 04-02-08, 02:02 PM	. . .This has nothing to do with melee or spellcasting. You can be a spellcaster and be a Warshaper. This has to do with the incorrect wording of the Changeling ability, the incorrect interpretation of what the ability does, and the brokenness if you are allowed to use Changeling with Warshaper. Well, if you consider that warshaper is five levels that do not give casting and a caster takes all five of them, they will suck as casters. Dipping in for a level or two could be useful, but not as much for casters. So the 'incorrect wording of the changeling ability' is what... because it is an effect that is like a spell, but is not the spell, it should be treated as if it were the spell? As to the 'incorrect interpretation of what the ability does' it does exactly what it says it does. I believe you are the one interpreting the ability. Everyone else is using the changeling as a creature with the (shapechanger) subtype with a minor ability to change their shape. That's RAW and I'll go as far as saying its RAI as well. The Eberron Campaign Setting came out about a year after Complete Warrior... If they were worried about the changeling, they could have given it some other subtype, such as aberration or monsterous humaniod. As to the 'brokenness of warshaper'... yes a melee class changeling can get into warshaper at character level 5, and this does violate a basic premise for prcs, that entry shouldn't be before character level 5. However, WotC has since specifically made at least one that you can enter at character level 4 (master specialist) if not character level 3 (heighten cheese), so even they realize it's not that a big deal. A barbarian 4/warshaper 4 will be pretty mean... with the ability to have rage (+4 str, +4 con) and the morphic body (+4 str, +4 con) going, and the ability to heal 2 hit points a round... but you can build melee focused something else 8 and get just as many bonuses. Yes, as a changeling with warshaper you are immune to stunning and crits whenever you need it, can grow weapons, add reach, add stat boosts and heal, but any other melee can pick up a reach weapon and emulate warshaper's reach ability and deal more damage at the same distance (strength 1-1/2 for two handing) and deal more damage than the natural weapons a changeling can grow (medium claws 1d4 to large claws 1d6, 20/x2, medium bite 1d6 to large bite 1d8, 20/x2). A healing belt will keep you alive... kind of like the fast heal ability only in this case the fast heal is 2 or lose an action and get 10. Healing belt is 2d8 (9) or 3d8 (13.5) or 4d8 (18), depending on how many charges you spend. A two weapon rogue will be getting something + 4d6 to every attack... and he's not technically a melee type. He's got a +6 to base attack where a barbarian warshaper would have a +7 at this point... are you going to tell me that the damage a rogue can do while being one base attack behind makes them broken? What about a Rogue 1/sneak attack fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3? He'll be doing the same sneak attack as an equal level rogue and will get intelligence and strength to damage and has a slightly higher base attack and lots more hit points than that equal level rogue... and both can be doing more damage than that barbarian warshaper. A changeling with levels in warshaper isn't broken... it's good, but not super. It's not a cleric divine metamagic. It's not a druid with natural spell who's never out of some combat capable form. It's not a wizard who makes intelligent use of his spells... all three core classes that don't really benefit much from levels of warshaper. And yes, I remember saying that some druids to take a level or two in warshaper, but it hits you in the hit die of wildshape forms as well as put you behind in casting... so it's not great for them. Even if you were correct, Cartigan, and changeling didn't qualify for warshaper, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to let them have it anyway... but they do qualify, and it is indeed nice... but it's not game ruining, which is what you are suggesting with your use of 'broken.' So relax, and change your mind in this instance. It's not a bad thing to be adaptable.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 02:05 PM	So relax, and change your mind in this instance. It's not a bad thing to be adaptable. Why don't you change your mind? I cannot logically come to the conclusion that the Changeling qualifies for the term alternate form just because it can physically change the way it looks, as the term appearance. The Changeling has an alternate appearance, not an alternate form. That is my opinion. Why don't you change yours (since you are so egotistical as to say I should change mine)?
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-02-08, 02:08 PM	I'm AFB so I don't have warshaper requirement with me Race: Any (but see below). Base Attack Bonus: +4. Special: Must be able to change shape in one of the following five ways: Change shape supernatural ability (aranea, hound archon, baghest, doppelganger, rakshasa, slaad). Shapechanger subtype (lycanthropes, phasm). Polymorph as a spell-like ability (astral deva, planetar, solar, couatl, marilith, bronze dragon, gold dragon, silver dragon, efreeti, leonal guardinal, night hag, ogre mage, pixie). Able to cast the polymorph spell. Wild shape or similar class feature (bear warrior*, druid). The alternate form ability (possessed by quasits, vampires, and others) is insufficient to become a warshaper. *Prestige class from this book. Why don't you change your mind? I cannot logically come to the conclusion that the Changeling qualifies for the term alternate form just because it can physically change the way it looks, as the term appearance. The Changeling has an alternate appearance, not an alternate form. That is my opinion. Why don't you change yours (since you are so egotistical as to say I should change mine)?Because according to the rules, you're wrong. This is not an opinion question, you don't get to use "my opinion" to dodge being wrong here. This is a discussion of the facts of the rules and you are failing miserably in it.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 02:13 PM	Because according to the rules, you're wrong. This is not an opinion question, you don't get to use "my opinion" to dodge being wrong here. Yes it does given: a) Changeling is newer than Warshaper b) Editors screw up all the time -and, most importantly,- c) It's my own bloody opinion. You people are debating my opinion is wrong, which is patently absurd. You didn't have to address my original statement in the first place but now you have gone off on a ridiculous parameter trying to convince me that my opinion (not interpretation, but opinion) is wrong, which means I obviously don't give a frack.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-02-08, 02:17 PM	*sighs at dealing with the slow kid* No, I'm saying your opinion has no place nor weight in a discussion of the facts of the rules. By the facts, you're wrong. By your opinion, blah blah, useless input in a discussion of rules.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 02:36 PM	*sighs at dealing with the slow kid* No, I'm saying your opinion has no place nor weight in a discussion of the facts of the rules. By the facts, you're wrong. By your opinion, blah blah, useless input in a discussion of rules. My opinion has everything to do with my opinion. We were not talking about the rules as they applied to Changelings. That isn't even related to the topic. I stated my opinion about letting Changelings be Warshapers just for being Changelings - I did not state that my opinion was a correct interpretation of the rules. You are the one that is apparently "slow" because I don't know how dense one has to be to argue with some one about why their personal opinion is wrong. Also, you're an egotistical asshat and I'm ignoring you after this for it.
teshen 04-02-08, 02:48 PM	. . . a) Changeling doesn't actually change form as through Change Shape or Polymorph or Polymorph like ability (Change Shape, Wild Shape, etc). He just looks different - literally. The form doesn't change, just the most generally appearance. b) Due to fact a, the Changeling may just say they are always in alternate form - even without bothering to really change their looks. "Oh, I have green skin, I'm in an alternate form." "Only because the editors are idiots." . . . But they can't grow a tail, claws, snapping jaws, or other natural weapons. And here is another problem with certain D&D arguments - improper comparisons to "real life." Even if D&D wasn't abstracted, things like this couldn't be directly related to real life like you are doing because there is no real life parallel. . . . Uh no, you arn't getting it. Those abilities allow you to change forms completely. You gain the abilities of the new form because you are the new form - you don't just look like it. Disguise Self isn't even as powerful as Alter Self, which is a wannabe Polymorph. Actually, they can grow things like vestigal wings and vestigal tails... they just won't grant the mechanical bonuses that such things normally grant. Since the changeling's ability is a minor physical alteration, it would be in line with a transmutation effect rather than an illusion effect... and what polymorph and alter self are transmutation effects... then in this case, the changeling's ability is rather the weakest form of personal transmutation possible. I understand that you keep saying it only changes your look... and you're right as far as a changeling transmutes their form to look different. . . . And I have already made it clear that this is my opinion in my first bloody post. You people are trying to argue that my opinion is wrong. And again to the topic, the Oriental Lycanthropes are Lycanthropes - they qualify.Then I will apologize for continuing to hit the topic. The way the rules are written, yes, your opinion does disagree with the rules then, but you can house rule it any way you wish, especially if you have found it makes for better games for you and yours. Why don't you change your mind? I cannot logically come to the conclusion that the Changeling qualifies for the term alternate form just because it can physically change the way it looks, as the term appearance. The Changeling has an alternate appearance, not an alternate form. That is my opinion. Why don't you change yours (since you are so egotistical as to say I should change mine)? Ok, let me put it this way... If a changeling is normally a gray skinned guy, and he changes into an elven woman without the benefits of the race, but in all ways changes his p**** into a v*****, grows b*****s, and latter on gets pregnant and has an elven child, how the f*** was he not in a form other than his to give birth, which the rules say he can? Also, if a changeling takes the feat racial emulation, they are treated as the race they change into for many things... so is that enough for you or not enough for you? A changeling in the form of an elf still don't get the bonus to dex or the ability to find secret doors, but magic treats them as an elf, their children would be elves when born, and they qualify for a lot of elven things while they were the form of an elf. I wasn't intending to be egotistical. I've been wrong before and I will so be again. In this case, your opinion is contrary to the rules. You've admitted so. You people are debating my opinion is wrong, which is patently absurd. You didn't have to address my original statement in the first place but now you have gone off on a ridiculous parameter trying to convince me that my opinion (not interpretation, but opinion) is wrong, which means I obviously don't give a frack.Since this is your original argument/opinion... I would say the Changeling doesn't get the bonuses as they don't actually have an alternate form. Disguise Self doesn't really give you an alternate form, and is below the standard qualification of polymorph equivalent ability.But the way it is written it does. So... good luck with that sense of entitlement to your opinion despite how the rules work there, buddy. Since it is just a game, and you can modify it for your own use and enjoyment, that's fine. My opinion has everything to do with my opinion. We were not talking about the rules as they applied to Changelings. That isn't even related to the topic. I stated my opinion about letting Changelings be Warshapers just for being Changelings - I did not state that my opinion was a correct interpretation of the rules. Ok then. Then, again, I apologize for not realizing that you were not discussing the rules when somebody asked for how warshaper interacted with some of the other +0 shapechanger races. Of course, this would mean that you were off topic to begin with.
Cartigan 04-02-08, 02:56 PM	Actually, they can grow things like vestigal wings and vestigal tails... they just won't grant the mechanical bonuses that such things normally grant. As far as I can tell, Disguise Self doesn't let you grow those things to begin with, much less pretend they are usable. If a changeling is normally a gray skinned guy, and he changes into an elven woman without the benefits of the race, but in all ways changes his p**** into a v*****, grows b*****s, and latter on gets pregnant and has an elven child, how the f*** was he not in a form other than his to give birth, which the rules say he can? He changes his physical attributes (in a limited manner), not his physical makeup. Minor Change Shape is not Change Shape. Of course, this would mean that you were off topic to begin with. I didn't start the off-topic tirade discussion of my opinion. I stated my opinion on Changeling (because it kept coming up) and then addressed the oriental Lycanthrope race.
Mercurius 04-02-08, 04:33 PM	Despite the fact that this isn't really pertinent to my specific question, Rick Baker has actually said that Changeling males that take on female forms can become pregnant while in those forms. This indicates a pretty drastic change to their biology, rather than just a cosmetic modification. And, just because I want to clarify... And again to the topic, the Oriental Lycanthropes are Lycanthropes - they qualify. Hengeyokai in Oriental Adventures aren't actually lycanthropes any more than elves are actually fey. They are similar, but they're not actually lycanthropes. This isn't old WoD, here (though that was a fun book, and I always wanted to play a Zhong Lung...).
dman11235 04-02-08, 05:46 PM	Cartigan has a history of being resistant to reason, hence my "rivalry" with him. Ironically, if that situation of having a bad encounter with a melee (probably a monk or barbarian, or both given his aversion to my monk/barbarian build that is totally legal without houserules) is true it would explain many of his comments towards me. Though this may be true (or not), what you said Shaggy was inexcusable *looks to top of page*. And Cartigan's response was uncalled for as well. Anyways, as had been freakin' quoted changlings actually change their shape. It's not an illusion or a disguise, it actual changing of their physical appearance. And even if it wasn't a physical change, they would still qualify for Warshaper, due to their shapechanger subtype. Not that it would do them any good, as they wouldn't be able to change shape to activate any of the abilities, but still. Seriously Cartigan. I've been wanting to tell you this for a long time, but you are really annoying when you're like this.
Mercurius 04-02-08, 05:52 PM	And even if it wasn't a physical change, they would still qualify for Warshaper, due to their shapechanger subtype. Not that it would do them any good, as they wouldn't be able to change shape to activate any of the abilities, but still. This has been stated before, by Cartigan, too, and that's where the crux of the changeling dispute lies. If they can change their shape, then any form aside from the form they were actually born in would be an alternate form, and thus, they'd benefit from the abilities of the Warshaper PrC. If they don't actually have a different form, then they don't have the abilities. That's the stance Cartigan is taking, really. That they don't actually change shape, and thus, don't benefit from it, whether or not they can qualify. Others are arguing that they change their shape/form, and therefore gain the benefits of the Warshaper PrC. That's the camp I'd be in, honestly. But I was more concerned with Hengeyokai, especially which form was their "natural" form when their not infected or anything of the sort, but rather are naturally able to shift between forms. I've decided to assume that the human form is the natural one, as that seems most logical and still beneficial for my game, and just go from there. It'll make the to-be Warshaper in my game happy, since in a world where almost everyone's a Hengeyokai, no one really bothers with their human form (unless they're a carp...).
Cartigan 04-02-08, 08:24 PM	Seriously Cartigan. I've been wanting to tell you this for a long time, but you are really annoying when you're like this. Here's a clue. When me, or anyone else, starts a sentence (or paragraph) with "I would say," they are stating their opinion and this amount of arguing is asinine. But I was more concerned with Hengeyokai, especially which form was their "natural" form when their not infected or anything of the sort, but rather are naturally able to shift between forms. I've decided to assume that the human form is the natural one, as that seems most logical and still beneficial for my game, and just go from there. It'll make the to-be Warshaper in my game happy, since in a world where almost everyone's a Hengeyokai, no one really bothers with their human form (unless they're a carp...). Hengeyokai or Lycanthrope, the base form is the humanoid form the abilities lay on top of. The Hengayokai entry gives all the information with a bent towards human being the base form. If the hybrid form was the base form, it would stat out that form and talk about Human under Alternate Form.
Mercurius 04-02-08, 10:04 PM	Hengeyokai or Lycanthrope, the base form is the humanoid form the abilities lay on top of. The Hengayokai entry gives all the information with a bent towards human being the base form. If the hybrid form was the base form, it would stat out that form and talk about Human under Alternate Form. And that's a very good point that was sort of the thing I was looking for. They're not exactly human, but it assumes baseline stats and then modifies based on animal or hybrid. That's pretty much a perfect reasoning for human being the base as far as the game is concerned. Thanks.
teshen 04-03-08, 02:41 AM	Actually, they can grow things like vestigal wings and vestigal tails... they just won't grant the mechanical bonuses that such things normally grant. As far as I can tell, Disguise Self doesn't let you grow those things to begin with, much less pretend they are usable. Well, disguise self won't let you grow anything but it would make it look like you have wings, say if you were mimicking a raptorian who has them... or a lesser aasimar or tiefling who has grown them (two feats required for the aasimar or tiefling). It would let you appear to have a tail if you mimicked a nezumi, a humaniod rat from OA or a vanara, a humanoid monkey, or... even a hengeyokai in hybrid form... a changeling would actually grow them. And since the alterations such as a tail or wings wouldn't make him taller or shorter than than a one foot change over his normal height, the extent of the apparent change is up to the character using it... which is enough to look like an entirely different person. But as I said before, he would gain no mechanical benefits from them. He would just have a pair of wings that would not allow flight or a tail that would just be there with no bonuses on balance or whatever tails do in dnd. He changes his physical attributes (in a limited manner), not his physical makeup. Minor Change Shape is not Change Shape.Minor? Minor?! MINOR!?! How much money and time does it take for the operation to cut off your junk and get what's left dragged up into your body so that, after months of healing, you can have relations in a similar manner as a woman? And you still cannot become pregnant. :rolleyes: And no, I guess you might be right about minor change shape not being change shape in the same way lesser restoration isn't restoration, nor is inflict light wounds like inflict serious wounds... Similar to the way the draconic creature template isn't like a dragon and so neither is a half dragon... Nor is aasimar like a celestial from which they are decended nor are half celestials anything like the celestials from which they decended. Except they are. It's the same stuff, less of it. If you want to blame the editors, then blame them for not stating up the ability any more than, it's a physical change with the same perimeters of disguise self. It's enough for most people to get the idea... Hengeyokai or Lycanthrope, the base form is the humanoid form the abilities lay on top of. The Hengayokai entry gives all the information with a bent towards human being the base form. If the hybrid form was the base form, it would stat out that form and talk about Human under Alternate Form.This, though, is a good point. I agree, and had said as much in post 8.