What are people's opinions on the Jade Phoenix Mage from Tob? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What are people's opinions on the Jade Phoenix Mage from Tob? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chaos90
07-05-07, 05:05 AM Hello everyone, I was wondering what people thought of the JPM. Is it overpowered, underpowered, or just right(sorry about the pun:P ). It would also be great if anyone could describe any in-game experienes with it as well.

I have brought this up because one of the characters in my campaign is currently playing one, and him and anyone else is beginning to question if he is balanced or not. The problems are mainly due to wraithstrike combined with arcane strike(although I think arcane strike isn't the problem) as well as the JPM class abilities. Maybe I'm at fault(even though I have been dm'ing this campaign for a while, I am still a bit inexperienced at coming up with apropriate challenges), but I would still like to hear your opinions.

If this has already been brought up, can someone give me a link? It would be a great help:D

And finally, I know this is off-topic and probably in the wrong thread, but are the orb spells(from complete arcane or spell compendium I think) overpowered, or are they only very good?
Iarmeister
07-05-07, 09:06 AM JPM is a fantastic PrC, especially for Sorcerers, because of the sorcerer's inherent lack of class abilities.

The JPM abilities are offset by steep prerequisites; namely, anyone wishing to enter this PrC has to choose if they're going to burn feats to acquire the needed manuevers, or if they're going to take at least a level in a martial adept base class to fulfill that requirement.

Here's a small caveat about that dilemma that may escape most people, however: if you don't take a level of either a swordsage, warblade or crusader than your JPM has no way of refreshing their readied maneuvers mid-combat.

Also, for sorcerers this means if they follow through with JPM all ten levels, they are denied access to 9th level spells. For wizards, they may only cast one 9th level spell/day.

Further balancing out the JPM is the fact that their arcane strike ability - while obviously cool! - requires they place themselves in the midst of melee combat, swinging a melee weapon. I'm sure they can use spells to buff themselves before hand to help their survivability, but in the midst of melee combat and swinging a melee weapon isn't where arcane casters weren't intended to be and doing (no offense to Gandalf). And besides, dealing damage has always been the least efficient way for high-level casters to deal with opponents.

This is my 2cps worth, of course, but the JPM is the first one on my list of which PrC to multi-class into for my own sorcerer in the Eyes of the Lich Queen module our game-krew is currently running.
Chaos90
07-05-07, 03:05 PM Thanks for the observations Iarmeister! But I find that with the increased hit die and the armor(the pc wears mithral twilight chainshirt i think), he is able to tank pretty well(maybe I'm just afraid to put monsters in full attack range of him....or I'm afraid to attack him in general:D ).

I believe he entered the prc as a warblade/wizard, and I know that they don't get 9th level spells by level 20, but the campaign was going to become epic(which I know is probably a bad idea, but I wanded to try it out anyway).
Staple
07-05-07, 10:18 PM I discovered JPM the other day, and now I really want to play one. I'd say it has potential to be very broken if done properly. The version I was thinking of uses Human Paragon to gain Bluff as a class skill, meaning he's an RP beast (since he already has Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive) as well as a combat beast (the extra feat and base attack don't hurt either, and I'd say are worth giving up a level of spell progression).

But like all characters, it depends on who's playing it. I can tell you that a JPM that looks like this:

Warmage 2 Human Paragon 3 Warblade 1 JPM 6

Is going to play a lot differently than

Sorceror 6 JPM 6

or

Wizard 3 Warblade 3 JPM 6.

In summation, JPM has the potential to be broken, but whether or not it actually is broken depends on the player.
Iarmeister
07-06-07, 02:47 AM Thanks for the observations Iarmeister! But I find that with the increased hit die and the armor(the pc wears mithral twilight chainshirt i think), he is able to tank pretty well(maybe I'm just afraid to put monsters in full attack range of him....or I'm afraid to attack him in general:D ).

I believe he entered the prc as a warblade/wizard, and I know that they don't get 9th level spells by level 20, but the campaign was going to become epic(which I know is probably a bad idea, but I wanded to try it out anyway).

The main problem I see is that the whole going epic part: ToB was never designed to go epic levels; it just doesn't support that aspect of gameplay.

Don't be afraid to put monsters in front of him. Let him/her be heroic. However, do note that if they're specializing in Desert Wind maneuvers, there are plenty of creatures that resist or are immune to fire damage, especially at higher levels.

What melee weapon are they wielding? Even with full BAB, the JPM would suffer from the wizard level's poor BAB progression. I can't see them successfully striking every time.

Also, if you are playing higher levels, be sure to start giving monsters actual characer levels. This ups the ante, too.
Chaos90
07-06-07, 02:19 PM The main problem I see is that the whole going epic part: ToB was never designed to go epic levels; it just doesn't support that aspect of gameplay.

Don't be afraid to put monsters in front of him. Let him/her be heroic. However, do note that if they're specializing in Desert Wind maneuvers, there are plenty of creatures that resist or are immune to fire damage, especially at higher levels.

What melee weapon are they wielding? Even with full BAB, the JPM would suffer from the wizard level's poor BAB progression. I can't see them successfully striking every time.

Also, if you are playing higher levels, be sure to start giving monsters actual characer levels. This ups the ante, too.

1. I thought about the epic thing too. I'll just have to deal with it.

2. He is not really using manuvers for the manuvers(if you get what I mean), he is using them for the JPM class abilities in order to augment his spells.

3. Currently, he is wielding a magic falchion, the reason he is striking so often is because of wraithstrike.

4. I'll get to that, I'm just lazy right now:D (I'ts summer vacation, what can I say)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chaos90 07-05-07, 05:05 AM	Hello everyone, I was wondering what people thought of the JPM. Is it overpowered, underpowered, or just right(sorry about the pun:P ). It would also be great if anyone could describe any in-game experienes with it as well. I have brought this up because one of the characters in my campaign is currently playing one, and him and anyone else is beginning to question if he is balanced or not. The problems are mainly due to wraithstrike combined with arcane strike(although I think arcane strike isn't the problem) as well as the JPM class abilities. Maybe I'm at fault(even though I have been dm'ing this campaign for a while, I am still a bit inexperienced at coming up with apropriate challenges), but I would still like to hear your opinions. If this has already been brought up, can someone give me a link? It would be a great help:D And finally, I know this is off-topic and probably in the wrong thread, but are the orb spells(from complete arcane or spell compendium I think) overpowered, or are they only very good?
Iarmeister 07-05-07, 09:06 AM	JPM is a fantastic PrC, especially for Sorcerers, because of the sorcerer's inherent lack of class abilities. The JPM abilities are offset by steep prerequisites; namely, anyone wishing to enter this PrC has to choose if they're going to burn feats to acquire the needed manuevers, or if they're going to take at least a level in a martial adept base class to fulfill that requirement. Here's a small caveat about that dilemma that may escape most people, however: if you don't take a level of either a swordsage, warblade or crusader than your JPM has no way of refreshing their readied maneuvers mid-combat. Also, for sorcerers this means if they follow through with JPM all ten levels, they are denied access to 9th level spells. For wizards, they may only cast one 9th level spell/day. Further balancing out the JPM is the fact that their arcane strike ability - while obviously cool! - requires they place themselves in the midst of melee combat, swinging a melee weapon. I'm sure they can use spells to buff themselves before hand to help their survivability, but in the midst of melee combat and swinging a melee weapon isn't where arcane casters weren't intended to be and doing (no offense to Gandalf). And besides, dealing damage has always been the least efficient way for high-level casters to deal with opponents. This is my 2cps worth, of course, but the JPM is the first one on my list of which PrC to multi-class into for my own sorcerer in the Eyes of the Lich Queen module our game-krew is currently running.
Chaos90 07-05-07, 03:05 PM	Thanks for the observations Iarmeister! But I find that with the increased hit die and the armor(the pc wears mithral twilight chainshirt i think), he is able to tank pretty well(maybe I'm just afraid to put monsters in full attack range of him....or I'm afraid to attack him in general:D ). I believe he entered the prc as a warblade/wizard, and I know that they don't get 9th level spells by level 20, but the campaign was going to become epic(which I know is probably a bad idea, but I wanded to try it out anyway).
Staple 07-05-07, 10:18 PM	I discovered JPM the other day, and now I really want to play one. I'd say it has potential to be very broken if done properly. The version I was thinking of uses Human Paragon to gain Bluff as a class skill, meaning he's an RP beast (since he already has Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive) as well as a combat beast (the extra feat and base attack don't hurt either, and I'd say are worth giving up a level of spell progression). But like all characters, it depends on who's playing it. I can tell you that a JPM that looks like this: Warmage 2 Human Paragon 3 Warblade 1 JPM 6 Is going to play a lot differently than Sorceror 6 JPM 6 or Wizard 3 Warblade 3 JPM 6. In summation, JPM has the potential to be broken, but whether or not it actually is broken depends on the player.
Iarmeister 07-06-07, 02:47 AM	Thanks for the observations Iarmeister! But I find that with the increased hit die and the armor(the pc wears mithral twilight chainshirt i think), he is able to tank pretty well(maybe I'm just afraid to put monsters in full attack range of him....or I'm afraid to attack him in general:D ). I believe he entered the prc as a warblade/wizard, and I know that they don't get 9th level spells by level 20, but the campaign was going to become epic(which I know is probably a bad idea, but I wanded to try it out anyway). The main problem I see is that the whole going epic part: ToB was never designed to go epic levels; it just doesn't support that aspect of gameplay. Don't be afraid to put monsters in front of him. Let him/her be heroic. However, do note that if they're specializing in Desert Wind maneuvers, there are plenty of creatures that resist or are immune to fire damage, especially at higher levels. What melee weapon are they wielding? Even with full BAB, the JPM would suffer from the wizard level's poor BAB progression. I can't see them successfully striking every time. Also, if you are playing higher levels, be sure to start giving monsters actual characer levels. This ups the ante, too.
Chaos90 07-06-07, 02:19 PM	The main problem I see is that the whole going epic part: ToB was never designed to go epic levels; it just doesn't support that aspect of gameplay. Don't be afraid to put monsters in front of him. Let him/her be heroic. However, do note that if they're specializing in Desert Wind maneuvers, there are plenty of creatures that resist or are immune to fire damage, especially at higher levels. What melee weapon are they wielding? Even with full BAB, the JPM would suffer from the wizard level's poor BAB progression. I can't see them successfully striking every time. Also, if you are playing higher levels, be sure to start giving monsters actual characer levels. This ups the ante, too. 1. I thought about the epic thing too. I'll just have to deal with it. 2. He is not really using manuvers for the manuvers(if you get what I mean), he is using them for the JPM class abilities in order to augment his spells. 3. Currently, he is wielding a magic falchion, the reason he is striking so often is because of wraithstrike. 4. I'll get to that, I'm just lazy right now:D (I'ts summer vacation, what can I say)