What's the point of the Jade phoenix mage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What's the point of the Jade phoenix mage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth Krieg
05-23-07, 01:24 AM I thought the tome of battle was meant to get players more into the idea of playing a melee based characters.

and yet we get the jade phoenix mage in the tome of battle which is the opposite of what the bok is really about.

any thoughts, I figure that there could have been a better prestige class to take up those 6 pages that the total text and picture for the class take up.
Tempest Stormwind
05-23-07, 01:30 AM Oh noes, out of some one-hundred sixty pages, maybe twelve are taken up by classes that still use the rest of the book but are, in some ways, tied to spellcasting, just so the book happened to have something for everyone! Maybe someone wanted to play a gish-type character (Fighter-mage) using an initiator at the base and the JPM and RKV can provide that for them! Besides, those are TWO out of EIGHT total PrCs in the book, and the PrC chapter is one of the smaller ones. I'd hardly call it a blight.

I'd hardly complain that a small (and COOL) section of the book links it to the rest of the game. There wasn't any space wasted on spells... or worse (the Expanded Psionics Handbook had spells, domains, diseases, counter-psionic feats, and monsters designed explicitly to slaughter psions). The JPM's fluff is also astonishingly well-written: I can't recall a single PrC that has EVER made me want to play one JUST because of the fluff before the JPM.
The_Shaman
05-23-07, 02:40 AM I thought the tome of battle was meant to get players more into the idea of playing a melee based characters.

and yet we get the jade phoenix mage in the tome of battle which is the opposite of what the bok is really about.

any thoughts, I figure that there could have been a better prestige class to take up those 6 pages that the total text and picture for the class take up.

I don't think that it's opposite to the rest of the books. Hybrids are an important part of the PrC selection, and this is an initiator/arcane hybrid. If you don't like it, don't use it... It's no worse than a psionic mage imo. Sure, you could probably think of a better PrC, and we'd be glad to see it.

Now if you want to take something out, I'd suggest martial scripts. Maybe it's just me, but I think them an initiator version of the scroll, and I think the concept of a scroll does not tie very well with the entire martial theme.
MattLangley
05-23-07, 11:31 AM You do realize that one of the huge abilities of a Jade Phoenix Mage is sac'ing their memorized spells to boost melee attacks?
Fabius Maximus
05-23-07, 11:32 AM Simmer down there, Tempest. No reason to be so thin-skinned when someone critizises ToB.

Besides, he's got a point there. Some people might say that the swordsage fills the gish niche...

Now if you want to take something out, I'd suggest martial scripts. Maybe it's just me, but I think them an initiator version of the scroll, and I think the concept of a scroll does not tie very well with the entire martial theme.To quote one of my favourite fan movies: "Roger THAT!"
Drachasor
05-23-07, 12:27 PM Simmer down there, Tempest. No reason to be so thin-skinned when someone critizises ToB.

Besides, he's got a point there. Some people might say that the swordsage fills the gish niche...

The Swordsage is bent more towards the martial spectrum. The SW is also a bit more like a Warlock Gish (small number of special powers). The JPM leans a lot more towards the magical end of the Gish spectrum. There's certainly room enough for both.

The only real 'problem' with the JPM is the default flavor states there's only like 9 of them (or something) in the entire world at any one time.

-Drachasor
Drachasor
05-23-07, 12:28 PM [QUOTE=The_Shaman;12473670Now if you want to take something out, I'd suggest martial scripts. Maybe it's just me, but I think them an initiator version of the scroll, and I think the concept of a scroll does not tie very well with the entire martial theme.[/QUOTE]

Works well-enough, I think. The Martial Scripts are magical, after all. Only Crusaders and Swordsages can make them, and they are the more magical of the martial adepts.

-Drachasor
Empiro
05-23-07, 02:47 PM I'm not sure what the complaint is all abuot? The Jade Pheonix Mage is just about the most powerful PrC to come out, well, at least until the Abjurant Champion.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
05-23-07, 02:53 PM I'm not sure what the complaint is all abuot? The Jade Pheonix Mage is just about the most powerful PrC to come out, well, at least until the Abjurant Champion.

Are you, are you high?
Tempest Stormwind
05-23-07, 05:18 PM Works well-enough, I think. The Martial Scripts are magical, after all. Only Crusaders and Swordsages can make them, and they are the more magical of the martial adepts.Do read the prerequisites on Scribe Martial Script again.

While they are magical, I wouldn't say that's out of what even a warblade could do. Before people get all high and holy with me, recall that this has shown up in D&D before -- and was, in fact, a rather important plot element in the often-copied Drizzt books (Bruenor, a single-classed dwarf fighter, if I recall correctly... crafts a magical warhammer all on his own).

I wasn't getting defensive in attacking the ToB, Fabius. I was challenging his reasoning. He was complaining that six pages of the 160 or so in the book dealt, tangentially, with spellcasters, and then acted as if this was promising a book for warriors and then pandering to the casters. No offense, but that's kind of like saying "But there's no cherry on top!" at the dessert table.
MattLangley
05-23-07, 05:27 PM I was challenging his reasoning. He was complaining that six pages of the 160 or so in the book dealt, tangentially, with spellcasters, and then acted as if this was promising a book for warriors and then pandering to the casters. No offense, but that's kind of like saying "But there's no cherry on top!" at the dessert table.

Agreed.
The_Shaman
05-23-07, 05:41 PM Do read the prerequisites on Scribe Martial Script again.

While they are magical, I wouldn't say that's out of what even a warblade could do. Before people get all high and holy with me, recall that this has shown up in D&D before -- and was, in fact, a rather important plot element in the often-copied Drizzt books (Bruenor, a single-classed dwarf fighter, if I recall correctly... crafts a magical warhammer all on his own).

Suit yourself. I find the concept a little alien to the feel of ToB, and would rather not see them in the games I participate in. IMO they remind me a little too much of a scroll rip-off and I doubt ToB needs them to be viable. It looks like an afterthought that they wrote a paragraph or two to rationalize.

As for books, authors have some leeway in interpreting rules... It's like your own game - you can have a boatful of houserules that you think make sense, but that might make a lot of purists go foaming at the mouth.
Drachasor
05-23-07, 06:08 PM Do read the prerequisites on Scribe Martial Script again.

It says "Crusader or Swordsage level 1st". So no one can make them without a level in one of those classes.

-Drachasor
Drachasor
05-23-07, 06:08 PM Suit yourself. I find the concept a little alien to the feel of ToB, and would rather not see them in the games I participate in. IMO they remind me a little too much of a scroll rip-off and I doubt ToB needs them to be viable. It looks like an afterthought that they wrote a paragraph or two to rationalize.

It is certainly nothing ToB needs to be viable, I agree. It is a "scroll rip-off," but I don't think that's inappropriate in and of itself.

-Drachasor
Empiro
05-23-07, 06:19 PM Are you, are you high?

No, but please point out another PrC that grants full BAB, 8/10 or better spellcasting, several of special ablities, plus other abilities on par with having a bunch of maneuvers and stances. The JPM is certainly among the most powerful PrCs around in its day, and by far the best Gish PrC until the Abjurant Champion.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
05-23-07, 06:41 PM No, but please point out another PrC that grants full BAB, 8/10 or better spellcasting, several of special ablities, plus other abilities on par with having a bunch of maneuvers and stances. The JPM is certainly among the most powerful PrCs around in its day, and by far the best Gish PrC until the Abjurant Champion.

It's one of, if not the best Gish PRC out there. No real contest. But best PRC ever? I don't think so. It doesn't give full casting and is therefore almost by definition not the best. Want examples of better PRCs? Of the top of my head:

Incantatrix

Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Planar Shepard(had to include it)

Beholder Mage (In here for the lulz)

First four levels of Fatespinner.(No entry requirements and some very nice stuff? Jaes plaes)

Archmage.

First level of Mindbender.

Hathran (Circle Magic cheese? Hell yeah. Rough RP requirements though)

Radiant Servant of Pelor.(Why not take it?)

Thing is, losing three caster levels(or two caster levels and feats), is hueg. In the JPM's case, it might be worth it though. Don't get me wrong, I love the class. I just don't think it's quite as broken as some of the things up there.
Empiro
05-23-07, 07:02 PM It's one of, if not the best Gish PRC out there. No real contest. But best PRC ever? I don't think so. It doesn't give full casting and is therefore almost by definition not the best. Want examples of better PRCs? Of the top of my head:

Incantatrix

Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Planar Shepard(had to include it)

Beholder Mage (In here for the lulz)

First four levels of Fatespinner.(No entry requirements and some very nice stuff? Jaes plaes)

Archmage.

First level of Mindbender.

Hathran (Circle Magic cheese? Hell yeah. Rough RP requirements though)

Radiant Servant of Pelor.(Why not take it?)

Thing is, losing three caster levels(or two caster levels and feats), is hueg. In the JPM's case, it might be worth it though. Don't get me wrong, I love the class. I just don't think it's quite as broken as some of the things up there.

I guess it's just going to have to come down to a difference of opinion -- if you don't think that any combination of class abilities can ever overcome a loss of caster levels, then yes, it's not that good. But I certainly place the JPM at around the same level as most of the classes you've listed up there.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
05-23-07, 07:09 PM I guess it's just going to have to come down to a difference of opinion -- if you don't think that any combination of class abilities can ever overcome a loss of caster levels, then yes, it's not that good. But I certainly place the JPM at around the same level as most of the classes you've listed up there.

It's about the same power level as some of the classes there yes. That is true. But the first two for example, blow it out of the water and as we all know, Planar Shepard beats pretty much everything. Also note that I don't believe it is bad. It rocks. It's just not up there with the best PRCs of 3.5.
It's also one of the few classes that make me want to play solely because of the background fluff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth Krieg 05-23-07, 01:24 AM	I thought the tome of battle was meant to get players more into the idea of playing a melee based characters. and yet we get the jade phoenix mage in the tome of battle which is the opposite of what the bok is really about. any thoughts, I figure that there could have been a better prestige class to take up those 6 pages that the total text and picture for the class take up.
Tempest Stormwind 05-23-07, 01:30 AM	Oh noes, out of some one-hundred sixty pages, maybe twelve are taken up by classes that still use the rest of the book but are, in some ways, tied to spellcasting, just so the book happened to have something for everyone! Maybe someone wanted to play a gish-type character (Fighter-mage) using an initiator at the base and the JPM and RKV can provide that for them! Besides, those are TWO out of EIGHT total PrCs in the book, and the PrC chapter is one of the smaller ones. I'd hardly call it a blight. I'd hardly complain that a small (and COOL) section of the book links it to the rest of the game. There wasn't any space wasted on spells... or worse (the Expanded Psionics Handbook had spells, domains, diseases, counter-psionic feats, and monsters designed explicitly to slaughter psions). The JPM's fluff is also astonishingly well-written: I can't recall a single PrC that has EVER made me want to play one JUST because of the fluff before the JPM.
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 02:40 AM	I thought the tome of battle was meant to get players more into the idea of playing a melee based characters. and yet we get the jade phoenix mage in the tome of battle which is the opposite of what the bok is really about. any thoughts, I figure that there could have been a better prestige class to take up those 6 pages that the total text and picture for the class take up. I don't think that it's opposite to the rest of the books. Hybrids are an important part of the PrC selection, and this is an initiator/arcane hybrid. If you don't like it, don't use it... It's no worse than a psionic mage imo. Sure, you could probably think of a better PrC, and we'd be glad to see it. Now if you want to take something out, I'd suggest martial scripts. Maybe it's just me, but I think them an initiator version of the scroll, and I think the concept of a scroll does not tie very well with the entire martial theme.
MattLangley 05-23-07, 11:31 AM	You do realize that one of the huge abilities of a Jade Phoenix Mage is sac'ing their memorized spells to boost melee attacks?
Fabius Maximus 05-23-07, 11:32 AM	Simmer down there, Tempest. No reason to be so thin-skinned when someone critizises ToB. Besides, he's got a point there. Some people might say that the swordsage fills the gish niche... Now if you want to take something out, I'd suggest martial scripts. Maybe it's just me, but I think them an initiator version of the scroll, and I think the concept of a scroll does not tie very well with the entire martial theme.To quote one of my favourite fan movies: "Roger THAT!"
Drachasor 05-23-07, 12:27 PM	Simmer down there, Tempest. No reason to be so thin-skinned when someone critizises ToB. Besides, he's got a point there. Some people might say that the swordsage fills the gish niche... The Swordsage is bent more towards the martial spectrum. The SW is also a bit more like a Warlock Gish (small number of special powers). The JPM leans a lot more towards the magical end of the Gish spectrum. There's certainly room enough for both. The only real 'problem' with the JPM is the default flavor states there's only like 9 of them (or something) in the entire world at any one time. -Drachasor
Drachasor 05-23-07, 12:28 PM	[QUOTE=The_Shaman;12473670Now if you want to take something out, I'd suggest martial scripts. Maybe it's just me, but I think them an initiator version of the scroll, and I think the concept of a scroll does not tie very well with the entire martial theme.[/QUOTE] Works well-enough, I think. The Martial Scripts are magical, after all. Only Crusaders and Swordsages can make them, and they are the more magical of the martial adepts. -Drachasor
Empiro 05-23-07, 02:47 PM	I'm not sure what the complaint is all abuot? The Jade Pheonix Mage is just about the most powerful PrC to come out, well, at least until the Abjurant Champion.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-23-07, 02:53 PM	I'm not sure what the complaint is all abuot? The Jade Pheonix Mage is just about the most powerful PrC to come out, well, at least until the Abjurant Champion. Are you, are you high?
Tempest Stormwind 05-23-07, 05:18 PM	Works well-enough, I think. The Martial Scripts are magical, after all. Only Crusaders and Swordsages can make them, and they are the more magical of the martial adepts.Do read the prerequisites on Scribe Martial Script again. While they are magical, I wouldn't say that's out of what even a warblade could do. Before people get all high and holy with me, recall that this has shown up in D&D before -- and was, in fact, a rather important plot element in the often-copied Drizzt books (Bruenor, a single-classed dwarf fighter, if I recall correctly... crafts a magical warhammer all on his own). I wasn't getting defensive in attacking the ToB, Fabius. I was challenging his reasoning. He was complaining that six pages of the 160 or so in the book dealt, tangentially, with spellcasters, and then acted as if this was promising a book for warriors and then pandering to the casters. No offense, but that's kind of like saying "But there's no cherry on top!" at the dessert table.
MattLangley 05-23-07, 05:27 PM	I was challenging his reasoning. He was complaining that six pages of the 160 or so in the book dealt, tangentially, with spellcasters, and then acted as if this was promising a book for warriors and then pandering to the casters. No offense, but that's kind of like saying "But there's no cherry on top!" at the dessert table. Agreed.
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 05:41 PM	Do read the prerequisites on Scribe Martial Script again. While they are magical, I wouldn't say that's out of what even a warblade could do. Before people get all high and holy with me, recall that this has shown up in D&D before -- and was, in fact, a rather important plot element in the often-copied Drizzt books (Bruenor, a single-classed dwarf fighter, if I recall correctly... crafts a magical warhammer all on his own). Suit yourself. I find the concept a little alien to the feel of ToB, and would rather not see them in the games I participate in. IMO they remind me a little too much of a scroll rip-off and I doubt ToB needs them to be viable. It looks like an afterthought that they wrote a paragraph or two to rationalize. As for books, authors have some leeway in interpreting rules... It's like your own game - you can have a boatful of houserules that you think make sense, but that might make a lot of purists go foaming at the mouth.
Drachasor 05-23-07, 06:08 PM	Do read the prerequisites on Scribe Martial Script again. It says "Crusader or Swordsage level 1st". So no one can make them without a level in one of those classes. -Drachasor
Drachasor 05-23-07, 06:08 PM	Suit yourself. I find the concept a little alien to the feel of ToB, and would rather not see them in the games I participate in. IMO they remind me a little too much of a scroll rip-off and I doubt ToB needs them to be viable. It looks like an afterthought that they wrote a paragraph or two to rationalize. It is certainly nothing ToB needs to be viable, I agree. It is a "scroll rip-off," but I don't think that's inappropriate in and of itself. -Drachasor
Empiro 05-23-07, 06:19 PM	Are you, are you high? No, but please point out another PrC that grants full BAB, 8/10 or better spellcasting, several of special ablities, plus other abilities on par with having a bunch of maneuvers and stances. The JPM is certainly among the most powerful PrCs around in its day, and by far the best Gish PrC until the Abjurant Champion.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-23-07, 06:41 PM	No, but please point out another PrC that grants full BAB, 8/10 or better spellcasting, several of special ablities, plus other abilities on par with having a bunch of maneuvers and stances. The JPM is certainly among the most powerful PrCs around in its day, and by far the best Gish PrC until the Abjurant Champion. It's one of, if not the best Gish PRC out there. No real contest. But best PRC ever? I don't think so. It doesn't give full casting and is therefore almost by definition not the best. Want examples of better PRCs? Of the top of my head: Incantatrix Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil Planar Shepard(had to include it) Beholder Mage (In here for the lulz) First four levels of Fatespinner.(No entry requirements and some very nice stuff? Jaes plaes) Archmage. First level of Mindbender. Hathran (Circle Magic cheese? Hell yeah. Rough RP requirements though) Radiant Servant of Pelor.(Why not take it?) Thing is, losing three caster levels(or two caster levels and feats), is hueg. In the JPM's case, it might be worth it though. Don't get me wrong, I love the class. I just don't think it's quite as broken as some of the things up there.
Empiro 05-23-07, 07:02 PM	It's one of, if not the best Gish PRC out there. No real contest. But best PRC ever? I don't think so. It doesn't give full casting and is therefore almost by definition not the best. Want examples of better PRCs? Of the top of my head: Incantatrix Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil Planar Shepard(had to include it) Beholder Mage (In here for the lulz) First four levels of Fatespinner.(No entry requirements and some very nice stuff? Jaes plaes) Archmage. First level of Mindbender. Hathran (Circle Magic cheese? Hell yeah. Rough RP requirements though) Radiant Servant of Pelor.(Why not take it?) Thing is, losing three caster levels(or two caster levels and feats), is hueg. In the JPM's case, it might be worth it though. Don't get me wrong, I love the class. I just don't think it's quite as broken as some of the things up there. I guess it's just going to have to come down to a difference of opinion -- if you don't think that any combination of class abilities can ever overcome a loss of caster levels, then yes, it's not that good. But I certainly place the JPM at around the same level as most of the classes you've listed up there.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-23-07, 07:09 PM	I guess it's just going to have to come down to a difference of opinion -- if you don't think that any combination of class abilities can ever overcome a loss of caster levels, then yes, it's not that good. But I certainly place the JPM at around the same level as most of the classes you've listed up there. It's about the same power level as some of the classes there yes. That is true. But the first two for example, blow it out of the water and as we all know, Planar Shepard beats pretty much everything. Also note that I don't believe it is bad. It rocks. It's just not up there with the best PRCs of 3.5. It's also one of the few classes that make me want to play solely because of the background fluff.