Which prestige classes have been made useless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Which prestige classes have been made useless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AllisterH
03-05-07, 09:44 PM In the "worst prestige classes" ever thread, someone made a good point.

The Eldritch Knight has basically made not as attractive since the Abjurant Champion. Similarly, the duskblade seems to make the bladesinger a somewhat non-viable choice.

What other prestige/base classes has WOTC released that have been made basically dead thanks to WOTC releasing a prestige class that does the same thing, only better?
DarkRhystar
03-05-07, 09:48 PM In the "worst prestige classes" ever thread, someone made a good point.

The Eldritch Knight has basically made not as attractive since the Abjurant Champion. Similarly, the duskblade seems to make the bladesinger a somewhat non-viable choice.

What other prestige/base classes has WOTC released that have been made basically dead thanks to WOTC releasing a prestige class that does the same thing, only better?

Um... the Eldritch Knight isn't useless.

It's 10 levels versus the Abjurant Champion's 5.
It's part of the Core so more DMs are likely to allow it.
It's not unbalanced.
It can be used with the Abjurant Champion to increase BAB and spells.

The Abjurant Champion may be better than the Eldritch Knight, but that doesn't make the Eldritch Knight useless.
demonic_dante
03-05-07, 11:45 PM duelist has been replaced by swashbuckler
Encard
03-06-07, 01:10 AM Abjurant Champion isn't unbalanced... EK is just weak as a straight 10-level PrC. Still, EK is part of a lot of gish builds since it has the basics and also has minimal requirements.

Swashbuckler isn't particularly good... Of course, neither is 3.5 Duelist. I don't think either replaced the other, especially since Swashbuckler is usually seen as a 3-level dip.

Duskblade... Maybe, but I haven't seen Bladesinger in play much, and the spell lists you'll get using Wiz/Ftr/Bladesinger vs. Duskblade are very different.

Honestly, I can't think of any PrC's that have been rendered obsolete by new base classes, if only because many of the new base classes aren't very good. Maybe by new PrC's, but it's hard to think of all the terrible, unused PrC's that have been published and made even more useless by new, better PrCs.
Lotus Crane
03-06-07, 03:04 AM Indeed, as other people have pointed out, the Eldritch Knight is the "fighter of PrC's." Just as the fighter is worthless as a full base class but most warriors take 1-4 levels in it anyway, the Eldritch Knight is worthless as a full prestige class but most gishes take 3-6 levels in it anyway.

In no way do duskblades obsolete any previous gish PrC's though, including the much-maligned Bladesinger. A (your favorite warrior class here)/wizard/Bladesinger has access to a much wider variety of spells than a duskblade, including various buff and utility spells that can make a bigger difference in battle than the mere direct-damage of a duskblade.
navar100
03-06-07, 03:32 AM Indeed, as other people have pointed out, the Eldritch Knight is the "fighter of PrC's." Just as the fighter is worthless as a full base class but most warriors take 1-4 levels in it anyway, the Eldritch Knight is worthless as a full prestige class but most gishes take 3-6 levels in it anyway.

In no way do duskblades obsolete any previous gish PrC's though, including the much-maligned Bladesinger. A (your favorite warrior class here)/wizard/Bladesinger has access to a much wider variety of spells than a duskblade, including various buff and utility spells that can make a bigger difference in battle than the mere direct-damage of a duskblade.

Well then, Eldritch Knight must be a pretty good prestige class after all since fighters aren't worthless. An Eldritch Knight is no Church Inquisitor, but he does alright.
Jaxgaret
03-06-07, 12:32 PM Well then, Eldritch Knight must be a pretty good prestige class after all since fighters aren't worthless. An Eldritch Knight is no Church Inquisitor, but he does alright.

Man, navar, you are really persistent with your pro-Fighter stance. I'll give you that.
epifreak
03-06-07, 02:24 PM Indeed, as other people have pointed out, the Eldritch Knight is the "fighter of PrC's." Just as the fighter is worthless as a full base class but most warriors take 1-4 levels in it anyway, the Eldritch Knight is worthless as a full prestige class but most gishes take 3-6 levels in it anyway.

Heck, I've taken all 10 before and not felt gimped. I actually like the class and don't consider it weak. It's a full BAB nearly full casting PrC, and given its requirements, it's also the easiest way to hit that 16 BAB 9th level spells combo. If you ask me, it's 10 times better than spellsword, which used to (along with bladesinger) compose the primary gish fodder, especially with the advent of abjurant champion.
lint trap
03-06-07, 03:07 PM It's far from useless, but the Mystic Theurge keeps getting eclipsed by other "Theurge" variants (True Necromancer, Arcane Hierophant, etc.).
Encard
03-06-07, 04:09 PM EK 10 is definitely better than Spellsword 10, sure. Neither is as good as a bit of judicious multiclassing, however.

Hmm... I suppose you could say that Radiant Servant of Pelor (or, heck, the core Cleric) make Healer obsolete - of course, that's mainly because Healer is a terrible, terrible class.
Witch
03-06-07, 04:11 PM Wayfarer Guide was rendered obsolete by the wizard base class.
epifreak
03-06-07, 04:29 PM Wayfarer Guide was rendered obsolete by the wizard base class.

That's the one that focuses on the planeshift spell, thus causing it to be worse at casting planeshift than a pureclassed wizard, right?

Don't forget the metamind, made obsolete by the psion base class.
Encard
03-06-07, 05:08 PM I feel like there should really be two categories here... One for classes that were made obsolete by later, better classes, and another for classes that were so poorly made as to be completely useless (barring, perhaps, some absurd exploitive trick) from the day they were published. I have a feeling that the latter will have many, many more members, but I suppose we'll see.

Another addition to the list, in category 2... Marshal was made obsolete (1-3 level dips aside) by pretty much anything else that helps the party, including Cleric, Dragon Shaman, and a host of other classes, feats and PrCs.
teshen
03-06-07, 06:17 PM Wayfarer Guide was rendered obsolete by the wizard base class.
The three level teleportation specialist? Just take out the extra teleport spell slot, give it full casting, and it's fine.
Richmud
03-06-07, 07:13 PM That's the one that focuses on the planeshift spell, thus causing it to be worse at casting planeshift than a pureclassed wizard, right?

Its teleport actually, but otherwise you describe it perfectly
epifreak
03-06-07, 09:47 PM I thought that was the one.
Lotus Crane
03-07-07, 02:34 AM EK 10 is definitely better than Spellsword 10, sure. Neither is as good as a bit of judicious multiclassing, however.
Well yes; the classic gish build (prior to Abjurant Champion) typicially involves 1, 3, or 5 (depends on what type of armor you plan to wear) levels of Spellsword early on in your career (your first PrC), and a few levels of EK at the end of your career, when you've already grabbed all the class special abilities you need from a different PrC, and are just looking for filler to cap out your BAB and spellcasting.

That being said, while this means that classes like fighter, EK, and Spellsword have their (limited) uses, they are still imperfect classes if nobody (at least, nobody actually trying to make a competitive character) will actually take every level in them. When all 20th level gishes have 3 levels of Spellsword and 7 levels of EK, but none have 10 levels in either, I'd call that a failure of class design.
navar100
03-07-07, 02:37 AM Man, navar, you are really persistent with your pro-Fighter stance. I'll give you that.

:D
epifreak
03-07-07, 02:55 AM I'd say that, if anything, abjurant champion replaces spellsword. When you can easily throw up longterm armor buffs, the AC of which easily rival "real" armor, there's no need for those silly armored casting class abilities. In essence it becomes an either/or situation:
Martial 1/Caster 5/EK X/Abjurant Champion 5 OR Spellsword X.
Encard
03-07-07, 04:05 AM Semi-true. Keep in mind, Mage Armor isn't affected by the Abjurant Champion's +AC ability... Not much besides Shield is, really. Also, armor lets you take some very handy special enhancements.
Wall
03-07-07, 07:33 AM Semi-true. Keep in mind, Mage Armor isn't affected by the Abjurant Champion's +AC ability... Not much besides Shield is, really. Also, armor lets you take some very handy special enhancements.

I believe it also affects the "Deflect, Lesser" and "Deflect" spells from the PHBII. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure that they give shield bonuses.
runestar
03-07-07, 08:28 AM I always felt the dragon disciple prc was worthless compared to taking the half-dragon template and 7 lvs in a full-bab class/prc, unless you were really hung up on the wings...:P
ShneekeyTheLost
03-07-07, 04:55 PM Spellsword was made obsolete by the Twilight enchantment... Twilight Mithril Chain shirt and you have no ASF anyways, so why bother with gimping your spellcasting to get a gimped spellstoring weapon?

Wayfarer Guide... yea, that was pretty much pointless right out of the box. So was the one that was the five level summoner class I can't remember the name of. Barring Gate cheeze to summon all the minions of Heaven to give all their spell slots to you so you can make an epic spell to blow up a planet with a Knowledge (arcana) check DC 1, of course. :D

Monk has been rendered obsolete by the Swordsage. Seriously. Same BAB, same HD, same unarmored AC bonus, same evasion/improved evasion... he just traded out the gimp monk abilities for crack Swordsage abilities and Initiator levels. Oh, and Swordsages can use a lot of different weapons too, so they aren't hurt by DR against bludgeoning. Even better, the Swordsage can take the unarmed variant to get monk unarmed damage and take all four disciplines with favored weapon: Unarmed (setting sun, shadowed hand, tiger fang, and stone dragon I believe). So it's a monk who can get DR 15/-, make a leap attack and make a jump check vs opponent's AC to make it a FULL attack, add craptons of damage per hit, and in general make a monk look sad.
Lotus Crane
03-07-07, 05:05 PM Spellsword was made obsolete by the Twilight enchantment... Twilight Mithril Chain shirt and you have no ASF anyways, so why bother with gimping your spellcasting to get a gimped spellstoring weapon?
Ah, but what if a character feels like wearing twilight mithral fullplate of nimbleness instead? Taking 1 level of Spellsword doesn't actually slow down your spellcasting, since it advances spellcasting at odd-numbered levels instead of even-numbered ones.
runestar
03-07-07, 09:32 PM Spellsword was made obsolete by the Twilight enchantment... Twilight Mithril Chain shirt and you have no ASF anyways, so why bother with gimping your spellcasting to get a gimped spellstoring weapon?
1 lv of spellsword grants +1bab and +1 spellcasting. Still one of the better 1-lv dips today. :)
Vharuck
03-07-07, 09:37 PM Don't forget the metamind, made obsolete by the psion base class.

I remember seeing the math and laughing with this one. The PrC is all about having a lot of power points, yet ends up with less power points than if you had gone straight psion. And worse manifesting to boot. Hilarious.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AllisterH 03-05-07, 09:44 PM	In the "worst prestige classes" ever thread, someone made a good point. The Eldritch Knight has basically made not as attractive since the Abjurant Champion. Similarly, the duskblade seems to make the bladesinger a somewhat non-viable choice. What other prestige/base classes has WOTC released that have been made basically dead thanks to WOTC releasing a prestige class that does the same thing, only better?
DarkRhystar 03-05-07, 09:48 PM	In the "worst prestige classes" ever thread, someone made a good point. The Eldritch Knight has basically made not as attractive since the Abjurant Champion. Similarly, the duskblade seems to make the bladesinger a somewhat non-viable choice. What other prestige/base classes has WOTC released that have been made basically dead thanks to WOTC releasing a prestige class that does the same thing, only better? Um... the Eldritch Knight isn't useless. It's 10 levels versus the Abjurant Champion's 5. It's part of the Core so more DMs are likely to allow it. It's not unbalanced. It can be used with the Abjurant Champion to increase BAB and spells. The Abjurant Champion may be better than the Eldritch Knight, but that doesn't make the Eldritch Knight useless.
demonic_dante 03-05-07, 11:45 PM	duelist has been replaced by swashbuckler
Encard 03-06-07, 01:10 AM	Abjurant Champion isn't unbalanced... EK is just weak as a straight 10-level PrC. Still, EK is part of a lot of gish builds since it has the basics and also has minimal requirements. Swashbuckler isn't particularly good... Of course, neither is 3.5 Duelist. I don't think either replaced the other, especially since Swashbuckler is usually seen as a 3-level dip. Duskblade... Maybe, but I haven't seen Bladesinger in play much, and the spell lists you'll get using Wiz/Ftr/Bladesinger vs. Duskblade are very different. Honestly, I can't think of any PrC's that have been rendered obsolete by new base classes, if only because many of the new base classes aren't very good. Maybe by new PrC's, but it's hard to think of all the terrible, unused PrC's that have been published and made even more useless by new, better PrCs.
Lotus Crane 03-06-07, 03:04 AM	Indeed, as other people have pointed out, the Eldritch Knight is the "fighter of PrC's." Just as the fighter is worthless as a full base class but most warriors take 1-4 levels in it anyway, the Eldritch Knight is worthless as a full prestige class but most gishes take 3-6 levels in it anyway. In no way do duskblades obsolete any previous gish PrC's though, including the much-maligned Bladesinger. A (your favorite warrior class here)/wizard/Bladesinger has access to a much wider variety of spells than a duskblade, including various buff and utility spells that can make a bigger difference in battle than the mere direct-damage of a duskblade.
navar100 03-06-07, 03:32 AM	Indeed, as other people have pointed out, the Eldritch Knight is the "fighter of PrC's." Just as the fighter is worthless as a full base class but most warriors take 1-4 levels in it anyway, the Eldritch Knight is worthless as a full prestige class but most gishes take 3-6 levels in it anyway. In no way do duskblades obsolete any previous gish PrC's though, including the much-maligned Bladesinger. A (your favorite warrior class here)/wizard/Bladesinger has access to a much wider variety of spells than a duskblade, including various buff and utility spells that can make a bigger difference in battle than the mere direct-damage of a duskblade. Well then, Eldritch Knight must be a pretty good prestige class after all since fighters aren't worthless. An Eldritch Knight is no Church Inquisitor, but he does alright.
Jaxgaret 03-06-07, 12:32 PM	Well then, Eldritch Knight must be a pretty good prestige class after all since fighters aren't worthless. An Eldritch Knight is no Church Inquisitor, but he does alright. Man, navar, you are really persistent with your pro-Fighter stance. I'll give you that.
epifreak 03-06-07, 02:24 PM	Indeed, as other people have pointed out, the Eldritch Knight is the "fighter of PrC's." Just as the fighter is worthless as a full base class but most warriors take 1-4 levels in it anyway, the Eldritch Knight is worthless as a full prestige class but most gishes take 3-6 levels in it anyway. Heck, I've taken all 10 before and not felt gimped. I actually like the class and don't consider it weak. It's a full BAB nearly full casting PrC, and given its requirements, it's also the easiest way to hit that 16 BAB 9th level spells combo. If you ask me, it's 10 times better than spellsword, which used to (along with bladesinger) compose the primary gish fodder, especially with the advent of abjurant champion.
lint trap 03-06-07, 03:07 PM	It's far from useless, but the Mystic Theurge keeps getting eclipsed by other "Theurge" variants (True Necromancer, Arcane Hierophant, etc.).
Encard 03-06-07, 04:09 PM	EK 10 is definitely better than Spellsword 10, sure. Neither is as good as a bit of judicious multiclassing, however. Hmm... I suppose you could say that Radiant Servant of Pelor (or, heck, the core Cleric) make Healer obsolete - of course, that's mainly because Healer is a terrible, terrible class.
Witch 03-06-07, 04:11 PM	Wayfarer Guide was rendered obsolete by the wizard base class.
epifreak 03-06-07, 04:29 PM	Wayfarer Guide was rendered obsolete by the wizard base class. That's the one that focuses on the planeshift spell, thus causing it to be worse at casting planeshift than a pureclassed wizard, right? Don't forget the metamind, made obsolete by the psion base class.
Encard 03-06-07, 05:08 PM	I feel like there should really be two categories here... One for classes that were made obsolete by later, better classes, and another for classes that were so poorly made as to be completely useless (barring, perhaps, some absurd exploitive trick) from the day they were published. I have a feeling that the latter will have many, many more members, but I suppose we'll see. Another addition to the list, in category 2... Marshal was made obsolete (1-3 level dips aside) by pretty much anything else that helps the party, including Cleric, Dragon Shaman, and a host of other classes, feats and PrCs.
teshen 03-06-07, 06:17 PM	Wayfarer Guide was rendered obsolete by the wizard base class. The three level teleportation specialist? Just take out the extra teleport spell slot, give it full casting, and it's fine.
Richmud 03-06-07, 07:13 PM	That's the one that focuses on the planeshift spell, thus causing it to be worse at casting planeshift than a pureclassed wizard, right? Its teleport actually, but otherwise you describe it perfectly
epifreak 03-06-07, 09:47 PM	I thought that was the one.
Lotus Crane 03-07-07, 02:34 AM	EK 10 is definitely better than Spellsword 10, sure. Neither is as good as a bit of judicious multiclassing, however. Well yes; the classic gish build (prior to Abjurant Champion) typicially involves 1, 3, or 5 (depends on what type of armor you plan to wear) levels of Spellsword early on in your career (your first PrC), and a few levels of EK at the end of your career, when you've already grabbed all the class special abilities you need from a different PrC, and are just looking for filler to cap out your BAB and spellcasting. That being said, while this means that classes like fighter, EK, and Spellsword have their (limited) uses, they are still imperfect classes if nobody (at least, nobody actually trying to make a competitive character) will actually take every level in them. When all 20th level gishes have 3 levels of Spellsword and 7 levels of EK, but none have 10 levels in either, I'd call that a failure of class design.
navar100 03-07-07, 02:37 AM	Man, navar, you are really persistent with your pro-Fighter stance. I'll give you that. :D
epifreak 03-07-07, 02:55 AM	I'd say that, if anything, abjurant champion replaces spellsword. When you can easily throw up longterm armor buffs, the AC of which easily rival "real" armor, there's no need for those silly armored casting class abilities. In essence it becomes an either/or situation: Martial 1/Caster 5/EK X/Abjurant Champion 5 OR Spellsword X.
Encard 03-07-07, 04:05 AM	Semi-true. Keep in mind, Mage Armor isn't affected by the Abjurant Champion's +AC ability... Not much besides Shield is, really. Also, armor lets you take some very handy special enhancements.
Wall 03-07-07, 07:33 AM	Semi-true. Keep in mind, Mage Armor isn't affected by the Abjurant Champion's +AC ability... Not much besides Shield is, really. Also, armor lets you take some very handy special enhancements. I believe it also affects the "Deflect, Lesser" and "Deflect" spells from the PHBII. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure that they give shield bonuses.
runestar 03-07-07, 08:28 AM	I always felt the dragon disciple prc was worthless compared to taking the half-dragon template and 7 lvs in a full-bab class/prc, unless you were really hung up on the wings...:P
ShneekeyTheLost 03-07-07, 04:55 PM	Spellsword was made obsolete by the Twilight enchantment... Twilight Mithril Chain shirt and you have no ASF anyways, so why bother with gimping your spellcasting to get a gimped spellstoring weapon? Wayfarer Guide... yea, that was pretty much pointless right out of the box. So was the one that was the five level summoner class I can't remember the name of. Barring Gate cheeze to summon all the minions of Heaven to give all their spell slots to you so you can make an epic spell to blow up a planet with a Knowledge (arcana) check DC 1, of course. :D Monk has been rendered obsolete by the Swordsage. Seriously. Same BAB, same HD, same unarmored AC bonus, same evasion/improved evasion... he just traded out the gimp monk abilities for crack Swordsage abilities and Initiator levels. Oh, and Swordsages can use a lot of different weapons too, so they aren't hurt by DR against bludgeoning. Even better, the Swordsage can take the unarmed variant to get monk unarmed damage and take all four disciplines with favored weapon: Unarmed (setting sun, shadowed hand, tiger fang, and stone dragon I believe). So it's a monk who can get DR 15/-, make a leap attack and make a jump check vs opponent's AC to make it a FULL attack, add craptons of damage per hit, and in general make a monk look sad.
Lotus Crane 03-07-07, 05:05 PM	Spellsword was made obsolete by the Twilight enchantment... Twilight Mithril Chain shirt and you have no ASF anyways, so why bother with gimping your spellcasting to get a gimped spellstoring weapon? Ah, but what if a character feels like wearing twilight mithral fullplate of nimbleness instead? Taking 1 level of Spellsword doesn't actually slow down your spellcasting, since it advances spellcasting at odd-numbered levels instead of even-numbered ones.
runestar 03-07-07, 09:32 PM	Spellsword was made obsolete by the Twilight enchantment... Twilight Mithril Chain shirt and you have no ASF anyways, so why bother with gimping your spellcasting to get a gimped spellstoring weapon? 1 lv of spellsword grants +1bab and +1 spellcasting. Still one of the better 1-lv dips today. :)
Vharuck 03-07-07, 09:37 PM	Don't forget the metamind, made obsolete by the psion base class. I remember seeing the math and laughing with this one. The PrC is all about having a lot of power points, yet ends up with less power points than if you had gone straight psion. And worse manifesting to boot. Hilarious.