Why not Mystic Theurge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Why not Mystic Theurge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
daveofspades
04-30-07, 04:08 PM I'm exploring my options for my replacement charecter...my current one is not all that likely to survive the whole campaign. Since I have a talent for playing spellcasters, I really liked the idea of the Mystic Theurge. Essentially getting two levels for one seems like a good thing to me, especially considering that both cleric and sorcerer aren't losing a lot in the way of bonus feats.

I saw in another post that the MT is considered weak or even bad. I was wondering why?

DD
Einvaldurinn_mikli
04-30-07, 04:10 PM You lose out on to many caster levels trying to get into the class.
The_Shaman
04-30-07, 04:20 PM Losing 3+ caster levels in each class means you're on average 1 1/2 spell levels behind the others. Since spells tend to increase almost geometrically in power, it's often a bad thing. Of course, the fact that you're less powerful than a full-casting cleric doesn't mean you're useless. Lvl 8 spells are still lvl 8 spells.

Mystic Theurge is powerful when employed with classes that have separate spellcasting progression, i.e. Ur-priest, Sublime chord, Divine Crusader, etc, but some DMs look down on such builds.
teshen
04-30-07, 07:01 PM Losing 3+ caster levels in each class means you're on average 1 1/2 spell levels behind the others. Since spells tend to increase almost geometrically in power, it's often a bad thing. Of course, the fact that you're less powerful than a full-casting cleric doesn't mean you're useless. Lvl 8 spells are still lvl 8 spells.

Mystic Theurge is powerful when employed with classes that have separate spellcasting progression, i.e. Ur-priest, Sublime chord, Divine Crusader, etc, but some DMs look down on such builds.
True and True.

If you like casters and you want to try a combination, try psion/archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)/psychic theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)/PrC X

Where in this case X is the name of the PrC out of Lords of Madness that I forgot the name of... it's a mini (5 level) psychic/divine class... You could always go Ardent/Cleric and still do this too... just mix and match until you're depending on one casting stat so you'll have something stronger than your average theurge...

That is... if your DM allows you to use psionics.
The_Shaman
04-30-07, 07:15 PM Sanctified mind, I believe. It is a quite stable class for clerics, psions and psy-warriors alike, imo.

The problem is that dual-casting classes tend to have prerequisites that require some non-optimal dipping. Remember the Fochlucan Lyrist? Full progression in 2 classes, full BAB and still it's tricky - as you tend to cut your own throat getting to it. The arcane hierophant (druid/arcanist from Races of the Wild) is imo the best of the bunch, possibly with the True Necromancer trailing soon after.
Jaxgaret
04-30-07, 08:00 PM I saw in another post that the MT is considered weak or even bad. I was wondering why?

DD

They're considered weaker than a straight base spellcasting character. That doesn't mean that they are bad by any means.

At low levels however, they can be next to useless. To avoid this they are probably best built by choosing which side you are going to focus on - arcane or divine - and getting that side as high in levels as possible before multiclassing and going into MT. That way you are not falling way behind in the low levels, and not as much in the mid levels.
teshen
04-30-07, 08:28 PM Sanctified mind, I believe. It is a quite stable class for clerics, psions and psy-warriors alike, imo.
That's the one. Thank you, Shaman.

The problem is that dual-casting classes tend to have prerequisites that require some non-optimal dipping. Remember the Fochlucan Lyrist? Full progression in 2 classes, full BAB and still it's tricky - as you tend to cut your own throat getting to it. The arcane hierophant (druid/arcanist from Races of the Wild) is imo the best of the bunch, possibly with the True Necromancer trailing soon after.
Yeah... it is indeed a balancing act. You want to take enough away to justify giving as much as the class does... but the power for versatility trade tends to not work well in D&D.

Wizard/Cleric/MT = Multiple attribute dependency, slower casting progression, features you can't use anymore(armor)...

Cleric/Sorcerer/MT = Same thing... only even slower casting.

Sorcerer/Favored soul = Bad. Even with the reliance on charisma, you gut your casting.

It's all pretty much the same thing over and over... the versatility does not make up for the power lost... Well... there's always the Illumian Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2 with the Natural spell feat. :D

Or if you don't mind cheese :evillaugh ... use heighten and earth spell to emulate higher level casting, reduce levels in wizard (or sorcerer) and pack in as much druid as you can...
Garonak
05-01-07, 07:20 AM The arcane hierophant is a tad better choice if you're going in the arcane/divine direction. Ability to cast in armor, higher BA, higher HD, animal companion and familiar stack-ish and the channel animal feature. Though (as mentioned) it requires druid levels.
CantripN
05-01-07, 08:48 AM It is possible to make a decent Dual-Caster, but that's not usually based on the MT nor normal casting. Consider Ur Priest, Sublime Chord, Beholder Mage or some such...
My favourite is a cheesed out Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Arcane Hierophant/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyricist.

...Oh. And if you like playing Arcane Casters, you simply must try out an Ultimate Magus. It's the most fun I ever had playing a Spellcaster. Twice the Magic!
RobbyPants
05-01-07, 09:49 AM Yeah, about the only reason I would consider MT to be a good class, is if it were used as a 5th wheel in a party that already had a dedicated, full-casting divine caster and a full arcane caster. That way, you have all your top level spells accounted for, along with plenty of extra and versitile low and mid level spells.

One thing this class is not is a substitution for both an arcane and a divine caster. You spread yourself too thin and lose too much.
vindictous
05-02-07, 10:28 AM as a curve ball how about war mage/ favored soul combo.
Got some offensive spells and cure spells mixed in, using the same ablity score for spells, and can cast in light armor freely.

(But maybe this only appeals to me since i live in a small town can can't get many people to play, so versitlity tends to shine more than brute force. )
RobbyPants
05-02-07, 12:53 PM as a curve ball how about war mage/ favored soul combo.
Got some offensive spells and cure spells mixed in, using the same ablity score for spells, and can cast in light armor freely.

(But maybe this only appeals to me since i live in a small town can can't get many people to play, so versitlity tends to shine more than brute force. )
The problem with that combo is that both are spontaneous casters, which means they don't get 2nd level spells until 4th level, which means that the entry point to the PrC with this combo is 8th level! You would have to be 9th level before getting into the class, and you lose 4 caster levels from each class. This means that your highest level spell available would be two spell levels lower than a single-classed warmage or favored soul. Plus, both classes benifit from a whole slew of special abilities, which you lose out on with Mystic Theruge.

The idea is intriguing, but you'd shoot yourself in the foot trying to get there, and would be limping around after the fact.
The_Shaman
05-02-07, 01:51 PM If you want spontaneity, I'm more inclined to suggest a battle sorcerer (UArcana/SRD). At least you're able to cast freely in light/medium armor, which can help alleviate the MAD somewhat. Still, practiced spellcaster is practically a must.

A plus for the hybrids is that while you won't be a powerhouse, you will have quite a bit of endurance for a caster - as well as more versatility than most others. After all, you're having 2 lists of prepared spells, that should count for something. While your spells tend to be lower level, your spell power could get to be tolerable. However, at least at first you will be notably behind a full-time caster.
Nathreet
05-02-07, 03:40 PM Also remember that you can only cast one spell at a time. So if you can't use up your many spell slots... you are essentially nothing more than a caster who is 3 levels behind.

I know someone who suggested using divine metamagic to power arcane spells, but I believe WotC errata'd out this tactic (or explained that it wasn't legal to begin with in a FAQ).
vindictous
05-02-07, 04:00 PM taking "practiced spell caster" could take off a little of the bite , but then you'd be spending a feat or 2, to equal the potency (but not the higher capacity) of the other casters

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
daveofspades 04-30-07, 04:08 PM	I'm exploring my options for my replacement charecter...my current one is not all that likely to survive the whole campaign. Since I have a talent for playing spellcasters, I really liked the idea of the Mystic Theurge. Essentially getting two levels for one seems like a good thing to me, especially considering that both cleric and sorcerer aren't losing a lot in the way of bonus feats. I saw in another post that the MT is considered weak or even bad. I was wondering why? DD
Einvaldurinn_mikli 04-30-07, 04:10 PM	You lose out on to many caster levels trying to get into the class.
The_Shaman 04-30-07, 04:20 PM	Losing 3+ caster levels in each class means you're on average 1 1/2 spell levels behind the others. Since spells tend to increase almost geometrically in power, it's often a bad thing. Of course, the fact that you're less powerful than a full-casting cleric doesn't mean you're useless. Lvl 8 spells are still lvl 8 spells. Mystic Theurge is powerful when employed with classes that have separate spellcasting progression, i.e. Ur-priest, Sublime chord, Divine Crusader, etc, but some DMs look down on such builds.
teshen 04-30-07, 07:01 PM	Losing 3+ caster levels in each class means you're on average 1 1/2 spell levels behind the others. Since spells tend to increase almost geometrically in power, it's often a bad thing. Of course, the fact that you're less powerful than a full-casting cleric doesn't mean you're useless. Lvl 8 spells are still lvl 8 spells. Mystic Theurge is powerful when employed with classes that have separate spellcasting progression, i.e. Ur-priest, Sublime chord, Divine Crusader, etc, but some DMs look down on such builds. True and True. If you like casters and you want to try a combination, try psion/archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)/psychic theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)/PrC X Where in this case X is the name of the PrC out of Lords of Madness that I forgot the name of... it's a mini (5 level) psychic/divine class... You could always go Ardent/Cleric and still do this too... just mix and match until you're depending on one casting stat so you'll have something stronger than your average theurge... That is... if your DM allows you to use psionics.
The_Shaman 04-30-07, 07:15 PM	Sanctified mind, I believe. It is a quite stable class for clerics, psions and psy-warriors alike, imo. The problem is that dual-casting classes tend to have prerequisites that require some non-optimal dipping. Remember the Fochlucan Lyrist? Full progression in 2 classes, full BAB and still it's tricky - as you tend to cut your own throat getting to it. The arcane hierophant (druid/arcanist from Races of the Wild) is imo the best of the bunch, possibly with the True Necromancer trailing soon after.
Jaxgaret 04-30-07, 08:00 PM	I saw in another post that the MT is considered weak or even bad. I was wondering why? DD They're considered weaker than a straight base spellcasting character. That doesn't mean that they are bad by any means. At low levels however, they can be next to useless. To avoid this they are probably best built by choosing which side you are going to focus on - arcane or divine - and getting that side as high in levels as possible before multiclassing and going into MT. That way you are not falling way behind in the low levels, and not as much in the mid levels.
teshen 04-30-07, 08:28 PM	Sanctified mind, I believe. It is a quite stable class for clerics, psions and psy-warriors alike, imo. That's the one. Thank you, Shaman. The problem is that dual-casting classes tend to have prerequisites that require some non-optimal dipping. Remember the Fochlucan Lyrist? Full progression in 2 classes, full BAB and still it's tricky - as you tend to cut your own throat getting to it. The arcane hierophant (druid/arcanist from Races of the Wild) is imo the best of the bunch, possibly with the True Necromancer trailing soon after. Yeah... it is indeed a balancing act. You want to take enough away to justify giving as much as the class does... but the power for versatility trade tends to not work well in D&D. Wizard/Cleric/MT = Multiple attribute dependency, slower casting progression, features you can't use anymore(armor)... Cleric/Sorcerer/MT = Same thing... only even slower casting. Sorcerer/Favored soul = Bad. Even with the reliance on charisma, you gut your casting. It's all pretty much the same thing over and over... the versatility does not make up for the power lost... Well... there's always the Illumian Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2 with the Natural spell feat. :D Or if you don't mind cheese :evillaugh ... use heighten and earth spell to emulate higher level casting, reduce levels in wizard (or sorcerer) and pack in as much druid as you can...
Garonak 05-01-07, 07:20 AM	The arcane hierophant is a tad better choice if you're going in the arcane/divine direction. Ability to cast in armor, higher BA, higher HD, animal companion and familiar stack-ish and the channel animal feature. Though (as mentioned) it requires druid levels.
CantripN 05-01-07, 08:48 AM	It is possible to make a decent Dual-Caster, but that's not usually based on the MT nor normal casting. Consider Ur Priest, Sublime Chord, Beholder Mage or some such... My favourite is a cheesed out Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Arcane Hierophant/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyricist. ...Oh. And if you like playing Arcane Casters, you simply must try out an Ultimate Magus. It's the most fun I ever had playing a Spellcaster. Twice the Magic!
RobbyPants 05-01-07, 09:49 AM	Yeah, about the only reason I would consider MT to be a good class, is if it were used as a 5th wheel in a party that already had a dedicated, full-casting divine caster and a full arcane caster. That way, you have all your top level spells accounted for, along with plenty of extra and versitile low and mid level spells. One thing this class is not is a substitution for both an arcane and a divine caster. You spread yourself too thin and lose too much.
vindictous 05-02-07, 10:28 AM	as a curve ball how about war mage/ favored soul combo. Got some offensive spells and cure spells mixed in, using the same ablity score for spells, and can cast in light armor freely. (But maybe this only appeals to me since i live in a small town can can't get many people to play, so versitlity tends to shine more than brute force. )
RobbyPants 05-02-07, 12:53 PM	as a curve ball how about war mage/ favored soul combo. Got some offensive spells and cure spells mixed in, using the same ablity score for spells, and can cast in light armor freely. (But maybe this only appeals to me since i live in a small town can can't get many people to play, so versitlity tends to shine more than brute force. ) The problem with that combo is that both are spontaneous casters, which means they don't get 2nd level spells until 4th level, which means that the entry point to the PrC with this combo is 8th level! You would have to be 9th level before getting into the class, and you lose 4 caster levels from each class. This means that your highest level spell available would be two spell levels lower than a single-classed warmage or favored soul. Plus, both classes benifit from a whole slew of special abilities, which you lose out on with Mystic Theruge. The idea is intriguing, but you'd shoot yourself in the foot trying to get there, and would be limping around after the fact.
The_Shaman 05-02-07, 01:51 PM	If you want spontaneity, I'm more inclined to suggest a battle sorcerer (UArcana/SRD). At least you're able to cast freely in light/medium armor, which can help alleviate the MAD somewhat. Still, practiced spellcaster is practically a must. A plus for the hybrids is that while you won't be a powerhouse, you will have quite a bit of endurance for a caster - as well as more versatility than most others. After all, you're having 2 lists of prepared spells, that should count for something. While your spells tend to be lower level, your spell power could get to be tolerable. However, at least at first you will be notably behind a full-time caster.
Nathreet 05-02-07, 03:40 PM	Also remember that you can only cast one spell at a time. So if you can't use up your many spell slots... you are essentially nothing more than a caster who is 3 levels behind. I know someone who suggested using divine metamagic to power arcane spells, but I believe WotC errata'd out this tactic (or explained that it wasn't legal to begin with in a FAQ).
vindictous 05-02-07, 04:00 PM	taking "practiced spell caster" could take off a little of the bite , but then you'd be spending a feat or 2, to equal the potency (but not the higher capacity) of the other casters