Wild Mages and Caster Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wild Mages and Caster Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arles
04-23-08, 02:23 AM When I took the Wild Mage PrC my caster level went down, so I{ was wondering if I could raise it back up with a certain feat?
StevenO
04-23-08, 02:48 AM What Wild Mage actually does to you caster level is a little confusing. In reality taking the class increases your average caster level by half a level. The CL adjustment from Wild Magic is checked each time a spell is cast with that adjustment being the +1d6-3.

Now it IS perfectly legal to use Practice Spellcaster to increase you caster level for those times Wild Magic would actually reduce it. You can NOT use it to just eliminate the -3 portion of WildMagic so you can always add the +d6 as Wild Magic needs to be taken as a whole. Examples:

Normal Wizard5/Wild Mage 1: Caster level varies from 4 to 9.
Wiz5/WM1 with Practiced Spellcaster: CL varies from 6 to 9.
d6=1 the Wild Magic adds -2 which you take before adding PS (6-2+4max 6)
d6=2 Wild Magic adds -1 for (6-1+4max6)
d6=3 or more then Practice Spellcaster wouldn't increase anything and you can then add Wild Magic.
Note that if desired you COULD add PS first and THEN take the total WM adjustment if you really do want to lower your CL.

Fighter2/Wizard5/WM1: CL varies from 4 to 9.
Ftr2/Wiz5/WM1 with PS: CL varies from 8 to 11.
d6=1 then you get to use full PS to make up for the CL lost to fighter and CL lost to Wild Magic.
d6=3+ then you can still add PC first to get your CL up to HD (8 here) and then add the bonus from Wild Magic.
RobbyPants
04-24-08, 10:24 AM Yeah, as StevenO said, it's technically legitimate. Good luck getting a DM to allow it though. ;) If he does, it's certainly a potent use of a single level dip and a feat.
StevenO
04-25-08, 12:41 AM As a level dip and feat it is an expensive way to get a part time caster level increase. At best Wild Magic is a +3 CL which can be helpful but Spell Penetration is much more reliable at punching through SR which is often an important part of an increased CL.

Thinking you can use Practice Spellcast to just get rid of half the Wild Magic ability (the -3) while leaving the other (+1d6) is cheating although some believe they should get away with it.
dman11235
04-25-08, 12:47 AM It depends on whether you see it as one or two separate abilities. According to the FAQ, you can apply the bonuses in any order you want, but if the -3 and +1d6 are the same adjustment, then you can't separate them.

EDIT: Oh, and wildmages can be a really fun class, trust me. Not as powerful as Incantatrix, but what is? It's still more powerful that straight wizard/sorc (full casting+abilities that actually mean something). And besides, the UMD requirement isn't all that bad.
StevenO
04-25-08, 12:59 AM The -3 and +1d6 are all from the Wild Magic ability so they are all from the same adjustment. Of course you do get to know what that adjustment will be before chosing how to apply all the adjustments; that is how you know how to stack PS and WM for that build with Ftr2 in it to maximize caster level.
Arles
04-25-08, 02:01 AM Dont see what the point of fighter might be since it slows down my spell progresion. Maybe just an Example??? That reflector ability saved me from certain doom more than onece. Anyways thank you guys for the help.

Anyways how im reading it is that when you roll the d6 on whatever number it lands on is what you add to your CL, so if you have a minus 2 or 3 and have PS wouldent that boos your CL to Wiz5/WM1 7-12? maybe its just the way I want to read it....
StevenO
04-25-08, 03:12 AM Dont see what the point of fighter might be since it slows down my spell progresion. Maybe just an Example??? That reflector ability saved me from certain doom more than onece. Anyways thank you guys for the help.

Anyways how im reading it is that when you roll the d6 on whatever number it lands on is what you add to your CL, so if you have a minus 2 or 3 and have PS wouldent that boos your CL to Wiz5/WM1 7-12? maybe its just the way I want to read it....
Adding Fighter was just for example. A more likely scenario is using an Ultimate Magus build going for that final Wiz18/Sor9 split.

I think you are trying to read Practiced Spellcaster plus Wild Magic in the most beneficial light and getting blinded because it doesn't work that way. The best Practiced Spellcaster can get you is CL = HD and at best Wild Magic gets you +3 CL when you roll a 6. In my first examples I point out the CL range for a Wiz5/WM1 with and without Practiced Spellcaster. You need to remember that all the Wild Mage's CL adjustments come from the same ability so they are applied at the same time.

You are not the first, and probably not the last, who wants so completely separate the -3 from Wild Magic from the +d6 and then do away with it using Practiced Spellcaster for a nice +d6 to you caster level.
dman11235
04-25-08, 01:08 PM Yes, but some try to make the case that since it is two different adjustments (-3 and then +1d6) this works. Not saying it's a very logically sound argument, just saying that it gets made.
StevenO
04-25-08, 02:32 PM I know the arguement all too well. A question is asked about defining optimizers, powergamers, and munchkins and their difference and this is almost an example of it. To me optimizers and powergamers fall into the same category as people who build to the best of the rules yet stay within the rules although a powergamer may try to push some broken, but RAW, things that a DM should be allowed to ban; these players will recognize how PS and WM work together to remove the downside but that it doesn't help the upside. I normally say a munchkin is just a type of cheater who gets DMs to read rules in the absolutely most favorable light even if that is wrong; these are the players who say PS ALWAYS gets rid of the -3 but doesn't have anything to do with the +1d6 that Wild Magic provides.
Arles
05-01-08, 02:48 AM Just the way that Wild Magic is worded makes me think that
Caster Level = Cl - 3 + 1d6. Nowere does it mention that the most you can get is +3. All it says is that you add +1d6 to your caster level. So what I see practiced Spell Caster doing is raising the -3 to 0 so the formula would look like this: CL=CL +/- 0 +1d6. In any case I decided to not take the feat because I kinda like the flavor. just want to know what others think of my reasoning.
dman11235
05-01-08, 11:11 AM It's really off. As has been said, the -3 and +1d6 are the same calculation, the same ability, so they cannot be split up. It does not mention that the highest number you can get is +3 because it's a matter of math that we did.
Arles
05-02-08, 10:29 PM Man the wording is so bad that it makes both sides reasonable but im leaning towards you guys, anyways thx for the help.
StevenO
05-02-08, 11:40 PM The wording is bad but if you took away the Wild Magic ability both the -3 and +1d6 would go away. That makes it all one ability that is treated as a whole when determining caster level.
edwardlynxx
05-04-08, 10:34 PM You guys need to read the SRD. This has already been addressed. They said this: Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level by 4 up to your HD. With Wild mage you decrease caster level by 3 then roll 1d6 to add to your level. Anytime you would roll a 1 or a 2, thus lowering your CL, Practiced Spellcaster would kick in and increase your CL back to it's normal. If you rolled a 3 or higher Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't do anything for you, because it would be raising your CL above your HD. You still get the +1 to +3 from the Wild mage, but your Practiced Spellcaster doesn't add anything into it. That's straight from the SRD, so you can take it or leave it.
StevenO
05-04-08, 10:45 PM You guys need to read the SRD.

Which "guys" as the only one questioning how Wild Magic and Practiced Spellcaster interact is the original poster. As for reading the SRD why would I ever want to do that? I'd much rather just read information from the book and then look up the clarifications in the FAQ.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arles 04-23-08, 02:23 AM	When I took the Wild Mage PrC my caster level went down, so I{ was wondering if I could raise it back up with a certain feat?
StevenO 04-23-08, 02:48 AM	What Wild Mage actually does to you caster level is a little confusing. In reality taking the class increases your average caster level by half a level. The CL adjustment from Wild Magic is checked each time a spell is cast with that adjustment being the +1d6-3. Now it IS perfectly legal to use Practice Spellcaster to increase you caster level for those times Wild Magic would actually reduce it. You can NOT use it to just eliminate the -3 portion of WildMagic so you can always add the +d6 as Wild Magic needs to be taken as a whole. Examples: Normal Wizard5/Wild Mage 1: Caster level varies from 4 to 9. Wiz5/WM1 with Practiced Spellcaster: CL varies from 6 to 9. d6=1 the Wild Magic adds -2 which you take before adding PS (6-2+4max 6) d6=2 Wild Magic adds -1 for (6-1+4max6) d6=3 or more then Practice Spellcaster wouldn't increase anything and you can then add Wild Magic. Note that if desired you COULD add PS first and THEN take the total WM adjustment if you really do want to lower your CL. Fighter2/Wizard5/WM1: CL varies from 4 to 9. Ftr2/Wiz5/WM1 with PS: CL varies from 8 to 11. d6=1 then you get to use full PS to make up for the CL lost to fighter and CL lost to Wild Magic. d6=3+ then you can still add PC first to get your CL up to HD (8 here) and then add the bonus from Wild Magic.
RobbyPants 04-24-08, 10:24 AM	Yeah, as StevenO said, it's technically legitimate. Good luck getting a DM to allow it though. ;) If he does, it's certainly a potent use of a single level dip and a feat.
StevenO 04-25-08, 12:41 AM	As a level dip and feat it is an expensive way to get a part time caster level increase. At best Wild Magic is a +3 CL which can be helpful but Spell Penetration is much more reliable at punching through SR which is often an important part of an increased CL. Thinking you can use Practice Spellcast to just get rid of half the Wild Magic ability (the -3) while leaving the other (+1d6) is cheating although some believe they should get away with it.
dman11235 04-25-08, 12:47 AM	It depends on whether you see it as one or two separate abilities. According to the FAQ, you can apply the bonuses in any order you want, but if the -3 and +1d6 are the same adjustment, then you can't separate them. EDIT: Oh, and wildmages can be a really fun class, trust me. Not as powerful as Incantatrix, but what is? It's still more powerful that straight wizard/sorc (full casting+abilities that actually mean something). And besides, the UMD requirement isn't all that bad.
StevenO 04-25-08, 12:59 AM	The -3 and +1d6 are all from the Wild Magic ability so they are all from the same adjustment. Of course you do get to know what that adjustment will be before chosing how to apply all the adjustments; that is how you know how to stack PS and WM for that build with Ftr2 in it to maximize caster level.
Arles 04-25-08, 02:01 AM	Dont see what the point of fighter might be since it slows down my spell progresion. Maybe just an Example??? That reflector ability saved me from certain doom more than onece. Anyways thank you guys for the help. Anyways how im reading it is that when you roll the d6 on whatever number it lands on is what you add to your CL, so if you have a minus 2 or 3 and have PS wouldent that boos your CL to Wiz5/WM1 7-12? maybe its just the way I want to read it....
StevenO 04-25-08, 03:12 AM	Dont see what the point of fighter might be since it slows down my spell progresion. Maybe just an Example??? That reflector ability saved me from certain doom more than onece. Anyways thank you guys for the help. Anyways how im reading it is that when you roll the d6 on whatever number it lands on is what you add to your CL, so if you have a minus 2 or 3 and have PS wouldent that boos your CL to Wiz5/WM1 7-12? maybe its just the way I want to read it.... Adding Fighter was just for example. A more likely scenario is using an Ultimate Magus build going for that final Wiz18/Sor9 split. I think you are trying to read Practiced Spellcaster plus Wild Magic in the most beneficial light and getting blinded because it doesn't work that way. The best Practiced Spellcaster can get you is CL = HD and at best Wild Magic gets you +3 CL when you roll a 6. In my first examples I point out the CL range for a Wiz5/WM1 with and without Practiced Spellcaster. You need to remember that all the Wild Mage's CL adjustments come from the same ability so they are applied at the same time. You are not the first, and probably not the last, who wants so completely separate the -3 from Wild Magic from the +d6 and then do away with it using Practiced Spellcaster for a nice +d6 to you caster level.
dman11235 04-25-08, 01:08 PM	Yes, but some try to make the case that since it is two different adjustments (-3 and then +1d6) this works. Not saying it's a very logically sound argument, just saying that it gets made.
StevenO 04-25-08, 02:32 PM	I know the arguement all too well. A question is asked about defining optimizers, powergamers, and munchkins and their difference and this is almost an example of it. To me optimizers and powergamers fall into the same category as people who build to the best of the rules yet stay within the rules although a powergamer may try to push some broken, but RAW, things that a DM should be allowed to ban; these players will recognize how PS and WM work together to remove the downside but that it doesn't help the upside. I normally say a munchkin is just a type of cheater who gets DMs to read rules in the absolutely most favorable light even if that is wrong; these are the players who say PS ALWAYS gets rid of the -3 but doesn't have anything to do with the +1d6 that Wild Magic provides.
Arles 05-01-08, 02:48 AM	Just the way that Wild Magic is worded makes me think that Caster Level = Cl - 3 + 1d6. Nowere does it mention that the most you can get is +3. All it says is that you add +1d6 to your caster level. So what I see practiced Spell Caster doing is raising the -3 to 0 so the formula would look like this: CL=CL +/- 0 +1d6. In any case I decided to not take the feat because I kinda like the flavor. just want to know what others think of my reasoning.
dman11235 05-01-08, 11:11 AM	It's really off. As has been said, the -3 and +1d6 are the same calculation, the same ability, so they cannot be split up. It does not mention that the highest number you can get is +3 because it's a matter of math that we did.
Arles 05-02-08, 10:29 PM	Man the wording is so bad that it makes both sides reasonable but im leaning towards you guys, anyways thx for the help.
StevenO 05-02-08, 11:40 PM	The wording is bad but if you took away the Wild Magic ability both the -3 and +1d6 would go away. That makes it all one ability that is treated as a whole when determining caster level.
edwardlynxx 05-04-08, 10:34 PM	You guys need to read the SRD. This has already been addressed. They said this: Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level by 4 up to your HD. With Wild mage you decrease caster level by 3 then roll 1d6 to add to your level. Anytime you would roll a 1 or a 2, thus lowering your CL, Practiced Spellcaster would kick in and increase your CL back to it's normal. If you rolled a 3 or higher Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't do anything for you, because it would be raising your CL above your HD. You still get the +1 to +3 from the Wild mage, but your Practiced Spellcaster doesn't add anything into it. That's straight from the SRD, so you can take it or leave it.
StevenO 05-04-08, 10:45 PM	You guys need to read the SRD. Which "guys" as the only one questioning how Wild Magic and Practiced Spellcaster interact is the original poster. As for reading the SRD why would I ever want to do that? I'd much rather just read information from the book and then look up the clarifications in the FAQ.