Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adrian_Barraczi 03-01-07, 02:39 PM	What do you think is the worst prestige class ever printed in a DnD d20 book?, it could also be the most pointless or useless. My personal "favorite" worst class: Exotic Weapon Master from complete warrior. I'd like someone to best it in "pointlessness".;)
The_Shaman 03-01-07, 03:18 PM	EWM? It is a filler, but there are imo way worse. Wayfarer guide is about as good. I'd say CW's Master of the Unseen Hand for being a spellcaster PrC without spellcasting. Evangelist is also annoying, although it can be useful for the hardcore diplomats. As for the exemplar, I skip this class whenever I read the book.
Grod_The_Giant 03-01-07, 03:28 PM	A lot of the classes in the DMG, by my mind. dragon disciple- who the heck is it for? Warriors? No, it requires magic and only has a medium BAB. Casters? Nope, it kills spellcasting. I'd only take it if I was a dragon shaman and the requirements were wavered- and then only for the flavor more then anything. Hierophant? I know they wanted a divine archmage, but with no new spells per day, this isn't too good a choice outside epic levels. many other classes are good, but not to my taste, I guess. There are a bunch of other classes that tick me off to, but I remember the DMG as being full of them.
Kresalak 03-01-07, 03:30 PM	Planar Shepherd. All supernatural, extraordinary, AND spell-like abilities? Damn, hand me some of what they were smoking!
IbanezNinja 03-01-07, 03:31 PM	EWM is good for a level, the uncanny blow allows you to get 2x strength to damage. At higher levels than can be alot. As for the hieroplant, it's used for jacking up caster levels to explode peoples heads with holy word. My vote? Dragon Disciple.
Tempest Stormwind 03-01-07, 03:32 PM	Planar Shepherd. All supernatural, extraordinary, AND spell-like abilities? Damn, hand me some of what they were smoking! Agreed. Shortly after that are PrCs that are unplayable unless you start from a high enough level, or PrCs that can't actually be entered by what they're aimed at. Examples include the Magelord (it takes a few unusual tweaks and Combat Medic to get it all pre-epic), Anarchic Initiate (untakable by the wilder it's aimed at, and broken for the psions who (easily) qualify), and, to some extent, Fochlucan Lyrist (which is fine if you start at high enough level, but impossibly hard to play if you're playing from 1st).
tallforadwarf 03-01-07, 05:08 PM	Storm Disciple gets my vote, from Complete Psionic. 5 levels, a little electricity resistance. Nout else. Not really a huge PrC fan though. (That said, it has a lot to do with the presentation of them. I read the 3rd Ed. DMG and thought "Cool! With these you can really reward players for getting into the world and their character." Then they started flooding out, published in the players books and became almost a prequisite. The presentation of PrCs in the 'Path of....' series from Fantasy Flight Games is much better, more fluff orientated, and helped me get more on-board with them. ) /hijack With apologies, :D tfad
The_Shaman 03-01-07, 05:18 PM	I'm a bit unhappy at DD and especially how its "spellcasting" works. If they gave it 1/2 or 4/10 spellcasting, it could be okay. Now even as I try to have a draconic warrior/mage idea, it doesn't measure up (the DM refused to edit it, unfortunately; I'm thinking dragon shaman instead).
starvinmarvin07 03-01-07, 07:37 PM	I don't like the classes that are specifically targeted at one kind of monster. The Undead hunter one, Knight of the chalice, it seems like an intentional gimp to focus your character around fighting one kind of monster. "yeah, I kick ass 4.79% of the time, the rest of the time the 10 lvl prestige class I took is pretty much only useful for the BAB" Not the weakest, but still, not great.
The_Shaman 03-01-07, 07:53 PM	Heh, in this case what do you think of the darkwood stalker ;) ?
Ariath Ska'Vhor 03-01-07, 08:41 PM	I didn't think about it too deeply, but off the top of my head (or maybe somewhere around the middle...) the Ronin from CW. I loved the concept but it made me sad the execution wasn't as good as the concept...Not to mention it was designed to be tacked onto a base class not worth wasting levels on.
mangoman72 03-01-07, 08:42 PM	I'm thinking the gnome giant slayer. For one, no one wants to be a gnome unless they're unusual. Cause let's face it, you mold your character into what you'd want him/her to be (I do, anyway). Short isn't one of the qualities he/she has. For two, as stated above, specializing in a single monster is just gimpish.
mangoman72 03-01-07, 08:43 PM	But, to add on to what I said earlier, I think a lot of practically unplayable PrCs are for DM's to flavor their campaign. Is it about a huge war between elves and orcs? Probably plenty of stuff for that. Is it another war between magic and anti-magic? Plenty of PrCs for that, too.
JD44 03-01-07, 10:57 PM	specializing in a single monster is just gimpish. If your worried about if your character has flaws or not, Then your not truly Role Playing. There suppose to have flaws, its what gives them character. Like playing a Rogue that only has one eye, -2 to spot and search checks. No real gain except it gives him character. Specializing on a single monster type gives character. Character is what make you fun to play with. Thats what all the prestige class are for, they add depth of character. When you stop thinking of how to add more depth and character, you stop roll playing.
darth_borehd 03-01-07, 11:03 PM	I'm thinking the gnome giant slayer. For one, no one wants to be a gnome unless they're unusual. Cause let's face it, you mold your character into what you'd want him/her to be (I do, anyway). Short isn't one of the qualities he/she has. For two, as stated above, specializing in a single monster is just gimpish. I love short characters! Halflings, kobolds, gnomes, etc. are awesome. Its that +1 to AC and attacks and the hiding bonuses!
starvinmarvin07 03-02-07, 01:15 AM	Short races are fun. Fun fact about halflings: 15 hide check, EASY, at lvl 1. 4 ranks +4 small +2 racial +3 Dex (dex 16) +2 Stealthy (feat) Does this seem powerful? eh, not really. "look ma, I can hide from the dog like none other!" Where does it come in handy? Leadership. Use leadership to become an underground crime lord, and all your lvl 1 followers are little halfling rogues with massive hide checks who run around stealing stuff.
navar100 03-02-07, 01:41 AM	If you allow the inclusion of 3.0, I'd like to add Candlecaster into the mix. In the early levels it takes two rounds to cast a spell using your candle. Also, for the whole point of being the prestige class, you have to spend lots of downtime, gold pieces, and XP to make your candles on a continuous basis.
Bopple 03-02-07, 01:51 AM	Why is EWM a pointless PrC? It's one of the best dipping PrCs out there.
Tevin Kevlak 03-02-07, 01:55 AM	Short races are fun. Fun fact about halflings: 15 hide check, EASY, at lvl 1. 4 ranks +4 small +2 racial +3 Dex (dex 16) +2 Stealthy (feat) Does this seem powerful? eh, not really. "look ma, I can hide from the dog like none other!" Where does it come in handy? Leadership. Use leadership to become an underground crime lord, and all your lvl 1 followers are little halfling rogues with massive hide checks who run around stealing stuff. Yeah, no one should scoff at the halflings (especially Strong Heart Halflings) and their ability to hide from anyone. If you've got a 20 dex (possible at level 1) and take Skill Focus: Hide with the extra feat gained from being a SH Halfling your hide is at a whopping +20 at level 1! Halfling Rogue/Shadowdancers are nasty little buggers.
Naderion 03-02-07, 04:31 AM	My top vote is Eldritch Knight, closely followed by mystic theurge. It's not only that they are bad, they are also in the DMG for any novice-dm to see. Take a look at the name "Prestige Class", the one word is class and the other is prestige. At least to me that means members of these clases are something special and the Assassin and Shadow Dancer for example both are. They are distinctly different from the base classes and have a background what they are and what they do. Eldritch Knight lacks everything. He just gets nothing but a better bab. Writing it down is 95% of the amount of work put into this class. The Mystic Theurge is not much better and I think giving him the double amount of spells a character would normally get just can't be balanced.
Findail 03-02-07, 08:39 AM	Frenzied Berserker. Depending on whether or not the party has devised a way to handle the "kill all your allies" problem, the class is either ludicrously overpowered or completely unplayable. There is no middle ground, in which the power of the class is properly balanced by its drawback.
FrostWolf 03-02-07, 08:46 AM	Okay. Watch me now, I'm about to win this crapfest in one word. Are you ready? Here we go! Maester. TADAAAAA! Am I not 1000% correct?! This supposed arcane PrC was supposed to be THE place to go for creation. But not only would you just be better off taking those same levels in any other base class (Yes, even fighter. Heck, even commoner), but Eberron broke this down into a handfull of feats. And the feats are better! :D :embarrass :P :eek: :cool:
runestar 03-02-07, 08:49 AM	Dragon disciple is actually a fun prc to play, albeit a tad underpowered. The trick is realizing that you are playing a fighter which access to just a dash of spellcasting for support, and tailor your playing style appropriately. You are not a main spellcaster, and never will be. Never tried the EWM, but it seems quite popular as a 1-dip for specialized builds seeking to round out their repertoire. The reason why eldritch knights and mystic theurges lack flavour is because the original flavour should already have been conceptualized into your original fighter/mage build, and eldritch's knight's purpose is simply to let you make a viable gish(an impossibility in 3.0), while letting you retain the original flavour of your creation. Same goes for mystic theurge. It would be retarded to give it any flavour, IMO.:( I would probably go with the CW bladesinger. Sucks in terms of both flavour and mechanics compared to the races of faerun version.
Encard 03-02-07, 11:22 PM	Metamind. You lose so much more than you gain... Unless you use one silly trick and just turn into an infinite loop, iirc. Shining Blade of Heironious is pretty bad - the abilities simply don't stack up against all the other options a character would have. I know I'm forgetting plenty of great candidates... I don't like the classes that are specifically targeted at one kind of monster. The Undead hunter one, Knight of the chalice, it seems like an intentional gimp to focus your character around fighting one kind of monster. "yeah, I kick ass 4.79% of the time, the rest of the time the 10 lvl prestige class I took is pretty much only useful for the BAB" I don't think these are intended to be taken in a general, let's-go-adventuring sort of game. They're more appropriate to a campaign focused on a given monster type (e.g. The Hellish Invasion, Attack of the Undead, The Orcish Horde Strikes Back, etc), or to NPCs.
Kresalak 03-03-07, 12:08 AM	Overall, I think prestige classes were handled really badly. Especially the ones that try to let you make a worthwhile character, like the Mystic Theurge. Those are horrible. For at least 5 levels you can't do anything, and then you start to advance both of your abilities, only they'll never be any good. And the ones that allow you to actually be powerful, like the Ultimate Magus, come in the form of "suck at first, then rule everything", which is obviously bad for the game at every level. I know I've probably supported the idea that prestige classes are supposed to represent your character focusing on something, but now I think I was just wrong. Prestige classes are available at level 6 at the least. You know what else you can do at level six? You can start your own town with Leadership, you can train the next generation of adventurers with Master/Apprentice, and a whole bunch of others options that boil down to retirement. PrCs have to be something really special that is available only to characters to whom an army of orcs is no threat. A fighter/mage is something that people need to be able to do from level 1, and so it can't be a PrC. A Death Knight or Lord of the Dead or whatever is something special, and belongs in the category of PrCs. When Lord Soth was level 1, he was just a Paladin, but when Crazy McStabface (Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker) was level 1 he did the same thing that he does now; he just wasn't as good at it. I especially hate the [Monster] Slayer classes. Not only are they horribly balanced, since your abilities only apply when fighting one enemy and as such either make you totally rock or completely suck, but they're also not Prestigious; we seriously see people like that at level one, but we just call them Rangers.
Encard 03-03-07, 02:52 AM	Just spotted this... If your worried about if your character has flaws or not, Then your not truly Role Playing. There suppose to have flaws, its what gives them character. Like playing a Rogue that only has one eye, -2 to spot and search checks. No real gain except it gives him character. Specializing on a single monster type gives character. Character is what make you fun to play with. Thats what all the prestige class are for, they add depth of character. When you stop thinking of how to add more depth and character, you stop roll playing. You don't need to gimp characters to be fun to play with. That's just irritating, from what I've seen. Seriously, you can have plenty of character without having game-mechanics-related flaws - good roleplaying in no way requires that you opt for things which are mechanically harmful.
MarduktheDestroyer 03-03-07, 01:42 PM	Faulklain (?) Lyricist. It hurts my brain nd i dont remember it having any useful abilities. Pyrokineticist is also a terrible class. Its wording has more holes than swiss and you dont even to be a psion to enter it. I dont think ive ever heard of anyone going Bear Warrior, sure the bonuses are cool and all... but what the hell? Im sure theres more i hate but i dont have any books on hand atm.
DarknessEternal 03-03-07, 01:43 PM	Bladesinger. Comparatively, it has the highest requirements with the least reward of all the PrCs.
Tempest Stormwind 03-03-07, 01:54 PM	Faulklain (?) Lyricist. It hurts my brain nd i dont remember it having any useful abilities. Pyrokineticist is also a terrible class. Its wording has more holes than swiss and you dont even to be a psion to enter it. I dont think ive ever heard of anyone going Bear Warrior, sure the bonuses are cool and all... but what the hell? Im sure theres more i hate but i dont have any books on hand atm. 1) Fochlucan Lyrist. We've mentioned it above. It has only one ability of its own -- wear light metal armor as a druid -- but the rest of its structure is very strong. It has full base attack, a decent hit die, full progression in both arcane and divine magic, and progresses bardic music and bardic knowledge. The problem is that qualifiying for it makes you suck like a billion not-yet-mystic-theurges while you're qualifying for it. 2) Pyrokineticist was not designed as a psion class. There's more to being psionic than being a psion, or any other manifester for all we know. The pyrokineticist can be entered by anyone with Wild Talent. (Do note that in Bruce Cordell's Hyperconscious book, we see that he says that the Pyrokineticist should have full base attack. It's likely it did to begin with but developers at WotC reduced it to medium.) The holes in pyrokineticist come from not saying things like what effective level his psi-like abilities are (matters for Concentration checks), and for deliberately confusing things on the fire lash. I can't believe I forgot to mention the metamind earlier, too...
MarduktheDestroyer 03-03-07, 02:33 PM	Im not saying these classes are underpowered. Im just saying their stupid. dont forget the fireball flinging abilities of the pyro. Isnt it 1d6/level? With no listed time for its casting or amount of times useable per day? Cant dispell it cause from what I remember its not a magical effect... That class would have been foolish with full BAB. it already nukes everything in a frenzied berzerker "who cares about the rest of the party" way unless your against things with fire resist/immunities. Then your about as useful as a Rogue in a field of undead. And i just dont see where they got the Fochlucan Lyrist from, its seems so random, maybe im just missing some 1e or 2e reference :P I find all the XPH prestige classes dont really make my day anyway.
Tusalu 03-03-07, 02:42 PM	My top vote is Eldritch Knight, closely followed by mystic theurge. It's not only that they are bad, they are also in the DMG for any novice-dm to see. Take a look at the name "Prestige Class", the one word is class and the other is prestige. At least to me that means members of these clases are something special and the Assassin and Shadow Dancer for example both are. They are distinctly different from the base classes and have a background what they are and what they do. Eldritch Knight lacks everything. He just gets nothing but a better bab. Writing it down is 95% of the amount of work put into this class. The Mystic Theurge is not much better and I think giving him the double amount of spells a character would normally get just can't be balanced. I agree prestige classes is supposed to give unique abilities, not just better BAB and Spells/day
The_Shaman 03-03-07, 02:45 PM	Arguably, you get a lot of special abilities - you can even choose them :P .
Tempest Stormwind 03-03-07, 02:47 PM	dont forget the fireball flinging abilities of the pyro. Isnt it 1d6/level? With no listed time for its casting or amount of times useable per day?It's not a spell, it's a psi-like ability, and using those is always a standard action. The "times per day" thing is just like the warlock -- unlimited.Cant dispell it cause from what I remember its not a magical effect...1) Psionic effects are subject to dispels just as magical ones are. See "psionics-magic transparency". 2) Why would you dispel an instantaneous effect anyway?And i just dont see where they got the Fochlucan Lyrist from, its seems so random, maybe im just missing some 1e or 2e referenceYes, it is. The first-edition bard. The truly hardest class to qualify for might have been [the 1st Edition Player's Handbook's] Appendix II's bard -- not for any ability score prerequisite but for its class prerequisites: "Bards begin play as fighters… until they have achieved at least 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards under druidical tutelage."
The_Shaman 03-03-07, 02:51 PM	Wait, didn't that mean that as 1st level druids they were wandering around with a THAC0 of 20-ish when everyone else was around lvl 10?
Kuronue 03-03-07, 05:38 PM	Cerebremancer. I was all jazzed about going cerebremancer, built a sorc/wilder, only to find that... ok, so I can cast more spells and do more powers than if I just alternated levels, but... I get nothing COOL. There's no BENEFIT. I can't make them somehow work together, I get none of the class benefits as if I'd levelled up in Wilder... I just... everyone else gets jumps and leaps of power by gaining new abilities and I just slowly grow stronger and have to rely on feats for new abilities.
navar100 03-03-07, 05:40 PM	Cerebremancer. I was all jazzed about going cerebremancer, built a sorc/wilder, only to find that... ok, so I can cast more spells and do more powers than if I just alternated levels, but... I get nothing COOL. There's no BENEFIT. I can't make them somehow work together, I get none of the class benefits as if I'd levelled up in Wilder... I just... everyone else gets jumps and leaps of power by gaining new abilities and I just slowly grow stronger and have to rely on feats for new abilities. That prestige class I think is more suited for wizard/psionicists.
bigdndfan 03-03-07, 05:59 PM	The Ghost Faced Killer is too derivative and all around embarrassingly cheesy/stupid. The Samurai (CW not OE) not only has no historical grounding but is a mess of abilities. Pointless really.
starvinmarvin07 03-03-07, 10:22 PM	I'm ok with EWM. If you've decided on an exotic weapon for any reason, its a nice, easy dip (really only 1 feat req and a whopping 3 skill points). I recently built a rogue around the 'Adaptable Flanker' feat from PHB 2, to flank with myself for ubersneakattackoverlordness. Anyway, needed Spiked Chain to do it, and dipped into EWM for the flurry; combine with straight BAB and boots of speed and thats a hell of a lot of sneak attacks per round. But I digress; the point is, if you're already on the Exotic Weapon route, its a perfectly good PRC; easy/helpful.
The_Shaman 03-04-07, 08:56 AM	Considering the flavor, I remember being completely blown away by the daggerspell shaper. It just feels like total mishmash.
Fabius Maximus 03-04-07, 09:58 AM	The Ghost Faced Killer is too derivative and all around embarrassingly cheesy/stupid. The Samurai (CW not OE) not only has no historical grounding but is a mess of abilities. Pointless really. The Ghost-faced Killer is nice. Okay, the flavour is not that original, but it can easily be changed. The Eldritch Knight is good, too. Being boring doesn't equal with bad.
Tevin Kevlak 03-05-07, 03:29 PM	The Eldritch Knight is not a bad class at all. It's one of those classes that benefits multi-class characters by combining two classes into one basically. The only reason it is percieved as a bad class now is because of the WoTC power creep. Now, there is no reason to take the Eldritch Knight class since the Abjurant Champion does everything it does but even more. If there was no Abjurant Champion PrC available I doubt that the Eldritch Knight would be listed here at all.
Lamorake 03-05-07, 05:39 PM	I would probably go with the CW bladesinger. Sucks in terms of both flavour and mechanics compared to the races of faerun version. I'd have to agree tht bladesinger is pretty bad... especially with the fact you can just go straight base class Duskblade and be better at basically the same type of combat.
ShneekeyTheLost 03-06-07, 12:44 AM	Right up there with most pointless: Arcane Archer It's an arcane class... with required spellcasting... and NO spellcasting progression whatsoever! Even the DD had additional spells known. Furthermore, their bonuses don't stack with any enchantments you might put on your bow, so you'll have to waste gold if you want to do anything but straight pluses for enchantments, just to get the +1 as a requirement to stack on other abilities. And the capstone ability with a fixed DC is quite possibly the lamest thing I've ever heard of. The EK is *NOT* pointless, and has it's place in Gish builds. full BAB and spellcasting (less the first level) is very handy. A fighter/wiz/EK can have a BAB of +16 and still casting 9th level spells pre-epic. Mystic Theurge/Cerebromancer... yea, they're pretty gimp unless you're trying to cover two important rolls with one character. Pyrokeneticist is actually extremely nasty if you use it right. The point is not to go out of a manifesting class, the point is to get a couple of PPs and grab 4 levels of Pyro. That way you have a 4d6 ranged touch attack at will (Scorching Ray at will? Sign me up!), and all your weapons do +2d6 fire damage. Slap that on a Barbarianand have fun! As far as completely Broken... Yea, Planar Shepherd is completely broken. Choose Fire, then turn into an Effrit and grant wishes to your party members. Crack.
Thrincold 03-06-07, 03:45 PM	My vote is for Vigilante. Most if not all of your abilities only apply against people you see committing a crime. If that restriction doesn't take DM fiat all to hell, I don't know what does.
ZocckCastlestorm 03-06-07, 06:09 PM	Worst are... 1) Arcane Archer: No advances in Spellcasting and yet the more interesting Special Abilities require you to cast a spell-Like the adding bow's range to spell's range...Without new spells known or per day, HOW can this be really useful?!?!?:confused: Sad, really. 2) Fochlucan Lyrist: Too much effort and flavor as the main reward. Yes, the tie-in to the 1st Edition AD&D is nice(And the Bard in that PHB was THE ORIGINAL PrC). Also kinda sad...:weep: 3) Pyrokineticist: See everyone elses points on it. :P :rolleyes: As to the Exotic Weapon Master, I find it an excellent PrC for anyone who likes a particular exotic weapon. Like Nets to go with that Trident? Get EWM to get that Combat Shot to toss the Net while threatend, and still tie up the target! Sweet...:cool: :D Like the Bastard Sword, Get EWM 1&2 for Uncanny Blow and Stunning Blow(Who would suspect it?) It's cool and useful against Casters/Psi's because it's Fortitude Save based and if the target Fails...No Soup For Them!;)
drunkendrake 03-06-07, 06:34 PM	Vigilante? I played one of them for a while, did alright. I liked the flavor especially, but didn't have time to really develop it since the campaign was just ending when I joined. Blighter is utter *****. Requires having completely wasted 5 levels of Druid. No spells without pulling most of the druids/rangers/natural anything down on your head like a ton of bricks. Terrible wildshape compared to Druid's Rubbish spells and loss of druid spells= -5 CL All in all, not worth the pages it's printed on. -Drake-
Snicker 03-06-07, 09:23 PM	If your worried about if your character has flaws or not, Then your not truly Role Playing. There suppose to have flaws, its what gives them character. Like playing a Rogue that only has one eye, -2 to spot and search checks. No real gain except it gives him character. Specializing on a single monster type gives character. Character is what make you fun to play with. Thats what all the prestige class are for, they add depth of character. When you stop thinking of how to add more depth and character, you stop roll playing. NO. Gimping does not equal roleplaying and you don't have to play a kobold commoner with skill focus: underwater basketweaving to be a roleplayer. Turning yourself into a liability to the party is not creativity. It's just being a dork who wants to hog the spotlight.
aicrag 03-06-07, 09:33 PM	Personally, I think the trickster classes in Complete Scoundrel are useless.
KurenaiYami 03-06-07, 09:35 PM	Mine goes to any class like the Mystic Theurge, whose only benefit is to try to get two of your casting classes slightly sub par. I say this only because if you were a Wizard with the Leadership feat and a Cleric cohort, you'd be far better off.
Bopple 03-06-07, 10:48 PM	I haven't read Complete Scoundrel thoroughly, but Battle Trickster is not bad to replace two levels of fighter.
Kresalak 03-07-07, 08:31 AM	Personally, I think everything in Complete Scoundrel are useless. Fixed.
elondir 03-07-07, 08:48 AM	My top vote is Eldritch Knight, closely followed by mystic theurge. It's not only that they are bad, they are also in the DMG for any novice-dm to see. Take a look at the name "Prestige Class", the one word is class and the other is prestige. At least to me that means members of these clases are something special and the Assassin and Shadow Dancer for example both are. They are distinctly different from the base classes and have a background what they are and what they do. Eldritch Knight lacks everything. He just gets nothing but a better bab. Writing it down is 95% of the amount of work put into this class. The Mystic Theurge is not much better and I think giving him the double amount of spells a character would normally get just can't be balanced. Mystic Theurge is balanced by the fact you're casting 2nd level spells when everyone else is casting 4th level spells. What's wrong with Eldritch Knight? I play one and he works out just fine. Sure you're a spell level behind but you get +16 BAB and ninth-level spells. Actually, there is one thing that I don't like about MT and EK: the fact that they only exist becuase 3.0 couldn't handle the old AD&D iconic multiclass gestalt combos involving spellcasting: fighter/mage, mage/cleric, mage/thief, etc. They still haven't figured out the fighter/mage/thief and fighter/mage/cleric, although factotum and bard try (but why do bards have a limited spell list?). The duskblade and other classes come close but again are much more limited and ultimately not the right solution.
Khatoblepas 03-07-07, 09:06 AM	Hmmm. True Necromancer. It actually makes you LESS good at Necromancy than a straight cleric. Any class with the prerequisite: Elf or Half-elf. Do we really need that many elf classes? It makes me sad. =( Gish classes especially. That's Githyanki territory! Shadowdancer would be better if it advanced Sneak Attack. Even just a little, to persuade me that it's worth the 10 levels. The Blackguard is all messed up, though. The prerequisites make no sense (Sundering and powerfully and efficiently dispatching foes is evil? And hiding?), but I DO love the fact that it's a full BAB class that gets 4th level spells at 11th level (Assuming Paladin 11 -> Paladin 1/Blackguard 10). It's a shame it's very patchy. Not THAT evil, just.. sneaky. Needs more evil. I like the Fochlucan Lyricist. It's perfect and reminds me of the 2e bard. Enter at level 10 and advance awesomely. Bard/Rogue/Druid/Fighter/Fochlucan Lyricist to level 20, then Mystic Theurge to increase caster levels later on. If there were some way of getting Bardic Knowledge without taking levels in Bard, you could go Wizard/Virtuoso/Druid/FL. Hmmm..
crimsonwolf 03-07-07, 10:39 AM	I love short characters! Halflings, kobolds, gnomes, etc. are awesome. Its that +1 to AC and attacks and the hiding bonuses! level one chracter....4 max ranks 3 dex bonus 4 for being small 8 for dark template...being able to hide on the dragons back while tap dancing Priceless (all equals up to 19 on your hide check before you even rolll)
Encard 03-07-07, 07:17 PM	level one chracter....4 max ranks 3 dex bonus 4 for being small 8 for dark template...being able to hide on the dragons back while tap dancing Priceless (all equals up to 19 on your hide check before you even rolll) Forgetting that dragons have Blindsense plus great Spot scores: munchy. :P
The_Shaman 03-07-07, 07:54 PM	BTW, are there other PrCs like the Magelord which you can't normally end until epic levels?
Votan 03-07-07, 10:54 PM	I am rather surprised that nobody has mentioned the Ur-Priest yet. It isn't the pinnacle of the pwoer curve that it once was but it is a pretty powerful class and famous for being the sxis around which abuse revolves. :)
Barloch 03-08-07, 10:25 PM	My first vote would go to anything with prerequisite elf or half-elf. Because it seems almost every book has at least one of these, as if we didn't need more elf loving, theres about 800 subraces of elf already. Plus I hate elves. I think drunken master is also a pretty wonky PrC. They're a monk based prestige class that gains very little monk abilities. And they're fighting style, to me, doesn't fit the drunken master style very well. The bloodhound seems pretty useless, exept in certain campaigns, as well to me. But yes, the blighter may very well be the absolute worst prestige class ever. The geomancer is pretty bad too as you need 2 diffrent spellcasting classes to enter and only 1 gains any levels and its abilities are pretty meh. In fact I'd go so far as to say the majority of PrCs in complete divine are rubbish, with some notable exeption, like the radiant servant of pelor, and the rainbow savant or whatever its called, the sorcerer one.
Nitan 03-08-07, 10:35 PM	Naturally, the Metamind.
Alpha_Moose 03-08-07, 10:36 PM	I think drunken master is also a pretty wonky PrC. They're a monk based prestige class that gains very little monk abilities. And they're fighting style, to me, doesn't fit the drunken master style very well. It's more of a Jackie Chan PrC if you haven't seen Drunken Master.
AllisterH 03-17-07, 09:56 PM	Actually, there is one thing that I don't like about MT and EK: the fact that they only exist becuase 3.0 couldn't handle the old AD&D iconic multiclass gestalt combos involving spellcasting: fighter/mage, mage/cleric, mage/thief, etc. They still haven't figured out the fighter/mage/thief and fighter/mage/cleric, although factotum and bard try (but why do bards have a limited spell list?). The duskblade and other classes come close but again are much more limited and ultimately not the right solution. Here's a question. WHY should WOTC come up with a prestige class to fix those "iconic multiclass"? Remember, in AD&D, there was no reason NOT to be multiclass if you were a demihuman. Your example of the F/M/T and F/M/Cl were many times stronger than the single class equivalent of the same xp total. Why should WOTC try and come up with solutions to bring back those archtypes?
Richmud 03-17-07, 10:29 PM	Here's a question. WHY should WOTC come up with a prestige class to fix those "iconic multiclass"? Why should WOTC try and come up with solutions to bring back those archtypes? A: Nostalgia B: People enjoy playing those archetypes C: Without these PrCs certain multiclass combinations are vastly underpowered compared to other options
JulesCARV 03-18-07, 12:57 AM	Dweomerkeeper, from the Complete Divine web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a). It's not just that it's broken. It's that it's so obviously broken. Some classes are broken if you combine them with some elaborate set of feats, or if you have them polymorphed/wildshaped/metamorphed into some obscure monster. Dweomerkeeper is broken straight out of the book -- err, PDF -- and seems proud of that fact.
The_Shaman 03-18-07, 06:20 PM	Didn't it require you to have levels in divine and arcane casting, though? That's generally a bit of a waste imo. Oh, I had unfortunately forgotten my pet hate. Has anyone played a celebrant of Sharess? It's exalted, it has a lot of almost-unrelated features, and I can't help but think it's complete and utter idiocy.
JulesCARV 03-18-07, 06:47 PM	It requires some spellcasting both arcane and divine, so you lose one caster level. Furthermore, the divine spellcasting level pretty much has to be cleric, since you need the magic domain, so you can't be, say, an archivist/wizard. However, it's only one level. You can be a cleric 1/wizard 4, or a cleric 4/wizard 1, and enter it. It's a loss of one spellcasting level, basically. It's not like the mystic theurge where you're usually 3 levels behind. And, in exchange for that one caster level, a cleric-focused dweomerkeeper can cast true resurrection without any material components. An arcane-focused dweomerkeeper, meanwhile, can cast wish without paying any experience costs. In Forgotten Realms, if you're a Halruaan or Nimbral human (or an Everskan or Evermeet elf), you don't need to bother with taking a level of an arcane class -- just take the Magical Training feat and you can be a straight cleric/dweomerkeeper. In Eberron, you don't get magical training, but you can pick almost any other domain in addition to magic, like artifice or creation, so that you can cast supernatural True Creation at level 16, actually pulling off the abuse that the Cannith Heir of Syberis was reputed to do, creating 25,000 gp from thin air every day. Would a sane DM allow all of this? No. Do the rules quite explicitly and obviously, without any twisty, convoluted readings, say that this is what the Dweomerkeeper does? Yes. None of this is to deny that the caster level loss usually associated with becoming a dweomerkeeper is real and significant. Any caster level loss is a price. I think in the dweomerkeeper's case, though, the price is quite low considering what you get in exchange.
Pentagram 03-18-07, 07:00 PM	Didn't it require you to have levels in divine and arcane casting, though? That's generally a bit of a waste imo. Well, being able to cast Wish four times a day without an XP cost might offset that loss - or Favorable Sacrifice for max benefit at level 9 without spending 10,000 gp's worth of gems. Yes, that was just from the top of my head. I am certain that some people have spent some serious time to make it totally broken...Although I would be quite happy just being able to cast Spider Climb without having to eat a living spider. :D
Dheran 03-19-07, 12:43 PM	My top vote is Eldritch Knight, closely followed by mystic theurge. ... The Mystic Theurge is not much better and I think giving him the double amount of spells a character would normally get just can't be balanced. The Mystic Theurge is an interesting, but not bad, class. It's a tradeoff between spellcasting power (the traditional single-class caster) and versatility (the MT). The MT will always be 1-2 spell levels below the single-class caster for the highest level of capability, but will almost never lack for a useful spell. It's like a sword versus a Swiss Army knife. A sword's good for slicing and dicing, but sometimes you really need a screwdriver/corkscrew/tweezers/whatever.
The_Shaman 03-19-07, 03:24 PM	It's a bit underwhelming compared to the arcane hierophant, perhaps. However, with a bit of fluff here and there (i.e. some of the dweomerkeeper abilities), it could work. Surprising, really. The dweomerkeeper's ability to cast a spell as a supernatural ability might just be one of the most powerful single abilities of them all... Although I still think wildshape (and its additions, of course) take the cake.
_Bolshack_Dragon_ 03-19-07, 03:43 PM	Sword of righteousness from Book of Exalted Deeds. No point at all!!!!
Alpha_Moose 03-19-07, 03:47 PM	Surprising, really. The dweomerkeeper's ability to cast a spell as a supernatural ability might just be one of the most powerful single abilities of them all... Although I still think wildshape (and its additions, of course) take the cake. Planar Shepard. It's just... why? The idea was cool, but so obviously broken. FAR more broken than the dweomerkeeper. You can get wish, like a dozen times per day while in a continuous time-stop.
Tekas_Tinkered_Dragon 03-19-07, 04:01 PM	I am going to have to say... The Legendary Dreadnaught. Of all the classes presented in the Epic Level Handbook (which WotC still references and refuses to reprint beyond its 3.5 "update") it is the most utterly useless. The only reason to take it is to punch through a wall of force...you know...the wall of force that we now have 500 ways to get around. Mystic Theurge is also a bad class in my opinion in so long as you are looking outside of Core. All the other mixture of two spellcasting classes now give you abilities. Yeah...you heard me, there are Mystic Theurges...that DO stuff. That makes them infinitly better then the Mystic Theurge even if the abilities are crappy. Also...nearly every Truenamer Prestige Class.
Elemental_Master 03-19-07, 04:04 PM	The Dark Knight captures that Fallen Paladin Jazz which helps players who want the archetype and prevents the guy who rollplays from taking it. DD seems silly when Half-Dragon does the exact same thing in fewer lvls.
Alpha_Moose 03-19-07, 06:12 PM	Also...nearly every Truenamer Prestige Class. Well that Monk PrC thing has some nice abilities and doesn't use always use that silly Truespeak mechanic. Mostly it's the problem with Truespeak. DD seems silly when Half-Dragon does the exact same thing in fewer lvls. It's good if you start the game at level 1 or your DM won't let you use templates. But otherwise, yeah.
RPGfan 03-23-07, 02:37 AM	The Dragon Disciple isn't that bad if you take Bard levels to qualify for it. I know that it sounds unorthodox but MAN does it help that little jazz singer tank. Bard class abilities aren't much to give up after the first few levels and you're probobly going to be relying more lower level spells than most bards for arcane power if you're multiclassing so you can tank. Plus, Bards really do benifit from those extra spells to boost the number of Tasha's Hidious Laughter and Shout spells per day. And to quote a Bard character of my friend when told those are joke spells, "Only when a Wizard casts them." If used right, they can respectively make an enemy helpless and destroy stone walls. Furthermore, it let's someone basically have Half-Dragon without major loss to HD, BAB, Saving Throws, or Skill Points. In conclusion: Bard+DD="Anyone wan't to call me spoony now?!?" <Insert Insane Laughter here> Now, if you really want broken, then look no further than (drum roll) "MASTER OF MANY FORMS"! It takes an already broken mechanic and makes it so broken, I've started calling it the Pun-Pun PrC. Even worse, it allows a Divine Minion to turn in to a Dragon! Do I really need to elaborate further? This MoM stuff practically writes itself.
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 08:43 AM	Really? I'm having a lot of problems imagining how a MoMF could even come close to a shapeshifting druid, but maybe it's jut me. If anything, it was the PrC that was most hit by the polymorph "fix", not the polymorph subschool itself. Not to mention I haven't met many DMs who would allow a divine minion to qualify. You know, the "many forms" must start from somewhere.
RPGfan 03-23-07, 06:32 PM	MoMF is a PrC designed around the Druid's Wild Shape. Flip through complete Adventurer and you'll find that it's prereqs include being able to Wild Shape (which, by the RAW, allows Divine minions to take it) and all of it's abilities involve Wild Shape. There's so many reasons as to why Wild Shape is overpowered on these boards that I can't even begin to scratch the surface.
Gideon_Gideonson 03-23-07, 06:36 PM	I can't believe no-one's mentioned it! Guys...Vigilante! What's more depressing or failed? Awesome name, awesome idea...and at least a metric ton of failure. :mad:
myusernameis 03-23-07, 07:12 PM	I can't believe no-one's mentioned it! Guys...Vigilante! What's more depressing or failed? Awesome name, awesome idea...and at least a metric ton of failure. :mad:It's been mentioned. I'd have to say Acolyte of the Skin, I like the flavor, but god damn does the class suck.
Duedaine 03-23-07, 09:10 PM	When Lord Soth was level 1, he was just a Paladin, but when Crazy McStabface (Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker) was level 1 he did the same thing that he does now; he just wasn't as good at it. I seriously had agood belly laugh at that one!
AierSeraph 03-23-07, 09:49 PM	The Dragon Disciple isn't that bad if you take Bard levels to qualify for it. I know that it sounds unorthodox but MAN does it help that little jazz singer tank. Bard class abilities aren't much to give up after the first few levels and you're probobly going to be relying more lower level spells than most bards for arcane power if you're multiclassing so you can tank. Using a hex blade is even better, d10 HD, full BAB, neat abilities, and can cast those impromptu arcane spells that are needed by fourth level (thought it needs to be 5th lv to get the 8 required ranks for knowledge(arcane)). Hexblade is made for the DD, together with a barbarian level dip they make fairly good melee fighters.
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 10:29 PM	Duskblade isn't bad either. Seriously, has anyone tried the Celebrant?
Grod_The_Giant 03-23-07, 11:22 PM	Duskblade isn't bad either. Seriously, has anyone tried the Celebrant? meh. I'd go warlock-fighter myself. Henious Blow + Eldritch Blast= a few extra d6 of damage, and it counts as the arcane spell you need.
Darius_Naga 03-24-07, 12:32 AM	Has any one used spellcarved soldier from the races of Eberron. I just don"t see how the special abilitys make up for the loss of caster or atificer levels. You can take a feat to wear extra rings and the fortifacation if you realy want that and they last all day. This is verry high on the list of worst in my book.
Kn1ves 03-24-07, 05:53 PM	If you allow the inclusion of 3.0, I'd like to add Candlecaster into the mix. In the early levels it takes two rounds to cast a spell using your candle. Also, for the whole point of being the prestige class, you have to spend lots of downtime, gold pieces, and XP to make your candles on a continuous basis. I don't know why but I've always had a soft spot for the Candle Caster. I just like the idea of the class but have never had a character that fit the concept well enough to play one except my goblin sorcerer but he didn't get to be played long enough.
Qwicksilver 03-25-07, 05:12 PM	Off the top of my head: arcane archer. I spent a while trying to do it, but it fell through. It would perhaps be more useful if it were also divine spell casters (ie. the ranger could use it). But the nail in the coffin for me was when I realized you can use arrows of spell storing in place of imbue arrow, and the arrows of spell storing are better.
Speedy 03-25-07, 10:33 PM	I disagree with the gnomish giant slayer being a bad prestige class. There's one currently in a group I'm in that has shown alot of potential. It is a alternative for a rogue to improve its combat skills other than taking a martial class and worrying level difference and xp penalties. The only thing I dislike is that you have to be a gnome, I've got a halfling barbarian with the Monkey Grip feat that would like those bonuses.:D Depending on the campaign, the specialized monster killers are a nice advantage.
Aktariel 03-26-07, 10:03 AM	Rage Mage. It's even worse than a Mystic Theurge, both mechanically and because it could have been such a nice concept. Gee. I think I'll play a multiclass barbarian/wizard. Just because I like a challenge. Oh, and want to suck really badly until about level 7 or so, and then only suck slightly less badly for the rest of my career. In the category of "I dislike it because it's so easily abused" falls Frenzied Berserker, with the Righteous Wrath feat from BoED. "I think I'll play a stark raving mad foaming at the mouth lunatic, but I'm completely calm and in control at the same time because I'm sickeningly good.
RPGfan 03-31-07, 01:39 PM	I have to agree. Rage Mage is a world of suckatude with a class ability that allows it to gimp itself further a limited number of times per day. I mean come on, what's the point of having Spell Rage? It doesn't give any of the benifits of Rage and has only slightly less harsh penalties than it. You don't get any plusses from it until Angry Spell at 5th level and even then it isn't worth the trouble. Furthermore, Frenzied Beserker is both sucky for it's PK dangers and it's Righteous Wrath abuses. As for dissapointments, I have to say that Duelist was a huge let down for me. You have to wait until 6th or 7th level before you can enter and start buckling swashes with core and even then it's abilities aren't too good. Furthermore, the prereq ranks are too hard for a full BAB class to get without cross-classing or multiclassing. Swashbuckler from CW completely overshadows it and is a Basic Class so you can ask "But, why is the rum gone?" at first level.
Leress 03-31-07, 01:51 PM	I will cast my vote for Swiftblade. It has an inorganic and impractical requirements. Most of the abilities are very poorly written. It tries to be a skirmisher but it's not very good at it, because some of its ability actually are hinder the skirmishing ability of the class. It loses far too many caster levels and give very little in exchange. The 10th level of the class is a swift kick, punch, and roundhouse kick to junk, with no caster level, perma-haste but it greatly shortens you life span. :(
Illiterate_Scribe 03-31-07, 01:55 PM	Grey Guard: A righteous warrior for the forces of good, a paladin without compare; who no longer has a code of conduct, and can act for the greater good ... thus utterly going against everything else WotC has said.
Cartigan 03-31-07, 02:08 PM	I disagree with the gnomish giant slayer being a bad prestige class. There's one currently in a group I'm in that has shown alot of potential. It is a alternative for a rogue to improve its combat skills other than taking a martial class and worrying level difference and xp penalties. The only thing I dislike is that you have to be a gnome, I've got a halfling barbarian with the Monkey Grip feat that would like those bonuses.:D Get a Whisperknife - similar abilities but can be used against non-giants. Looking at Gnome Giantslayer, it just looks like a gimped Whisperknife. Though as a Barbarian, you would need some cross-class skills or a level of Rogue.
Halflingtoes 04-01-07, 08:10 AM	Eldritch Knight is a great prestige class. Swashbuckler 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 9. It gives you a caster level of 15, a BAB of +19, effective caster level of 19, and 9d10, 2d4, and 9d6 hit dice, and intelligence bonus to melee damage. Of course finishing off Abjurant Champion 5 with Knight Phantom 9 from eberron is even better, with the same BAB and caster levels, but some special abilities and d8 HD instead of D6. It's a noticable example of Power creep, but for those that don't use eberron or don't qualifiy for phantom knight, Eldritch knight remains a classic and a staple for creating an effective arcane warrior, which is what the flavor of the class is all about.
Yadot 04-01-07, 03:15 PM	The Swiftblade. It causes you to spend an entire level casting Haste in every 3rd level slot and above, loses 4 caster levels for abilities that an Adept would turn its nose at and at the 10th level it sortens your lifespan in half.
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 03:39 PM	Where's that from? Edit: sounds like a good class for undead ;) .
Richmud 04-01-07, 05:48 PM	Where's that from? Edit: sounds like a good class for undead ;) . The wizard's site, though before judgment is passed the author said he would be attempting to post a revised version on Monday See here for the PrC: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327 And here for the discussion: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=818086
The_Shaman 04-01-07, 07:45 PM	The wizard's site, though before judgment is passed the author said he would be attempting to post a revised version on Monday See here for the PrC: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327 And here for the discussion: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=818086 Hm, sounds like an interesting dip. Getting a competence bonus to initiative equal to your casting ability modifier is... well, more than a little nice. That can easily trump improved initiative, and then some. The perma-haste+blur is a bit tricky, though - although it could work for gishes. Doesn't blur mean that you can get sneak attack on every attack, btw?
Richmud 04-01-07, 08:42 PM	Doesn't blur mean that you can get sneak attack on every attack, btw? No, but it does make it impossible for people to sneak attack you
The_Shaman 04-02-07, 11:06 AM	That I know, but I think there was something about blurstrike weapons that allowed a rogue to SA with every attack while they were empowered. However, it might be because they gave the effect of Blink, and decided to call them blurstrike because it sounds better.
Edea 04-02-07, 11:45 PM	The psionic version of the Wonderworker. Utter Crap. Master of Masks. A roiling sphere of rancid buttnuggets.
MightyPotamus 04-03-07, 01:57 AM	Blighter for the lose! Dragon disciple isn't really as bad as most people claim. 4 levels martial class:Cross class knowlege (arcana) 1 level sorcerer or battle sorcerer: snag some decent buffing spells and max out knowledge 10 levels dragon disciple lose: 4 from BAB [ Class features (nothing major if it was just fighter to front load feats) gain: 4 attack from strength [ 4/6 melee damage--nonmagical [ 1 hp per HD; 1 skillpoint per level, whatever CHA bonus is good for [ 10 1st level spells per day (take practised spellcaster) [ Better will saves than most martial classes [ wings--nonmagical flying [ +4 natural armor (acess to improved natural armor) [ natural weapons (take improves natural weapon/ multiattack) [ Blindsense [ Breath weapon [ immunity to at least a few nasty attacks [ an interesting character DD isn't the best for everyone, but it is an interesting and viable option. especially pre-inflation
MightyPotamus 04-03-07, 02:03 AM	I think that Radiant Servant of Pelor is too good. I can't really see why a cleric of Pelor wouldn't want to take it, it seems grotesquely overpowered, and that's at least as bad as underpowered. (except I want to play the overpowered one.:surrender )
Neodymium 04-03-07, 03:07 AM	I'm sticking with the same answer i've had since 3.0. Master of Chains. soooooo lame! It pains me to even think about it.
Dalmaris_cerebromancer 04-03-07, 10:46 AM	Dungeon delver I think i spelled it wrong
MagusBlack 04-03-07, 05:00 PM	The New Exotic Weapon Master (3.5) is just stupid-what's the difference between a longsword and a bastard sword that could justify that nonsense. If you can perform a trick with an exotic weapon, you probably can do the same with a 'regular weapon'.
Cartigan 04-03-07, 05:30 PM	The New Exotic Weapon Master (3.5) is just stupid-what's the difference between a longsword and a bastard sword that could justify that nonsense. If you can perform a trick with an exotic weapon, you probably can do the same with a 'regular weapon'. The class is only remotely justifiable with classes or races that automatically get to use exotic weapons, like the Monk or something.
Echo_that_Pains 04-03-07, 05:45 PM	I would like to second the True Necromancer as mentioned earlier, but also add in Yathrinshee (PGtF IIRC). It is basically the same class as the true necro, but it requires you to be drow which adds a +2 LA to the mix
ravidubey 04-03-07, 08:26 PM	1) Epic Mystic Theurge You could just advance as both a cleric and a wizard and gain everything the EMT gives you plus class abilities. 1a) Metamind You lose manifesting ability that would have gained you more powers per day than you gain and you lose overall manifester level and higher power access, stopping all progression at 15th level.
Cartigan 04-03-07, 11:30 PM	I'd like someone to best it in "pointlessness".;) All the prestige classes that are very similar to other prestige classes but only against certain races. Like the Gnome Giantslayer or Darkwood Stalker.
Babaganouj 04-04-07, 03:08 PM	1) Epic Mystic Theurge You could just advance as both a cleric and a wizard and gain everything the EMT gives you plus class abilities. Minus Bonus Epic Feats until level... 53-ish? I know it seems like a serious gimp, but imagine a Mystic Theurge at Level 30 with full caster progression in Divine and Arcane. With Level 9 Divine and Arcane spells, and maxed Knowledge(Arcana, Religion) and Spellcraft, think of the Epic Spells this guy is already going to have. (4 per day at Level 24, 6 at 27, 8 at 37, ...) I have watched the Bladesinger's slow nerfing (Web Enhancements notwithstanding) all the way from the 2e Kit. Expensive, yes. Disappointing, yes. Back-end loaded, yes. Worst PrC ever, hardly. I think both of these are better than Arcane Archer.
Alpha_Moose 04-04-07, 03:59 PM	I think both of these are better than Arcane Archer. Remember though that it's Arcane Archer. It's like the Dragon Disciple in how you should build him, with very little actual spellcasting.
Rude 04-04-07, 04:22 PM	I've tried using Blighter for some bad guys against my party. It's worthless. A PC of mine was playing a True Necro. The guy got hit with Finger of Death and told the party to leave him dead, he made a new character. True Necro is a beat scene too. I have to say the absolute worst PrC is Nar Demonbinder from FR's Unapproachable East. I think it was great to have PrCs from the two ancient warring magical nations. The Ruamthari Battlemage is alright I suppose but the Nar Demonbinder is the lamest thing I've seen. You take wizard levels to qualify, then your spell progression stops and you start taking very limiting spells from the Nar Demonbinder, which start at 4th. I think the class abilities allow you to create magical disks which help in the trapping of demons. I can't imagine anyone actually playing one of these things with a straight face. Now that I think about it, almost all the PrCs in UE were really weak almost unplayable.
Edea 04-04-07, 04:27 PM	Nar Demonbinder is usually used to qualify for dual-progression classes, as it has its own spellcasting progression and said progression is accelerated (Ultimate Magus is an example, though Caelic's KotW build I find easier to use).
Averroes 04-04-07, 04:49 PM	While I think the blighter makes a good villain for players to fight. I thought the main benifit of a blighter was that it doesnt have to rest to regain spells. Just wipe out some landscape. Am I right? Because getting your spells back without having to stop and rest seems pretty nice to me. Edit: Put me down for Rage Mage "I'm so mad I'm going to cast a spell at you!" Dumb Idea flavor wise.
The_Shaman 04-04-07, 04:52 PM	I am going to chime for my pet favourite again. Seriously, has anyone ever tried it?
geekmasterflash 04-04-07, 04:54 PM	Eunoch Warlock from OA. It is an ok PrC, but anything that requires the loss of ********* just doesn't seem right to me.
The_Shaman 04-04-07, 05:05 PM	They updated it to get 9/10 caster levels, btw. Or 8/10, but I think it was 9. Check out the OA update in Dragon 318 ;)
geekmasterflash 04-04-07, 05:08 PM	They updated it to get 9/10 caster levels, btw. Or 8/10, but I think it was 9. Check out the OA update in Dragon 318 ;) Yeah, but does that change the fact they have to loose their reproductive organs?
Ventilatory_Threshold 04-04-07, 05:12 PM	I suggested the Eunuch Warlock in another one of these threads (maybe this one, I don't know) for the same reason geekmasterflash did. You lose your balls. In 3.5 you get slightly more power for losing your balls, but you still lose your balls.
The_Shaman 04-04-07, 05:19 PM	Yeah, but does that change the fact they have to loose their reproductive organs? Wait a minute. For someone with lvl 9 casting, are you telling me there are no ways you can regrow a pair of balls, and a whole lot more? AFAIK there's no section on ex-eunuchs, so you don't lose your class features if you ever do find yourself back in the gene pool ;) . So what's a regenerate spell at those levels? You get lvl 9 spells. At that level of power, you can impregnate someone by whistling in her (or his, or its) direction, and don't let me even begin to think what you can do with her (or him, or it) in a bedroom - or practically anywhere else. People, sorry to remind you, but whenever a pure caster is involved, logic and common sense might as well take a hike to Nessus, get themselves a lollypop and enjoy the scenery.
Richmud 04-04-07, 06:18 PM	You need to think of Eunuch Warlock the other way around. After someone removes your vital part you go into the class to get some power
Link182 04-04-07, 07:06 PM	I don't know, playing a eunuch might be an interesting role playing choice. Especially if he's some sort of spell casting advisor to a noble or king, traveling with the PCs on some sort of royal agenda. I think one of those David Eddings novel series featured a drug addicted eunuch assassin didn't it? There's a couple PrCs that require maiming and wierd stuff aren't there? I think I recall some 3.0 Eye of Gruumsh or something, there's all those Willing Deformity feats in BoVD, why should this be any different. Would it really affect your character's adventuring life that much?
Votan 04-05-07, 12:09 AM	Minus Bonus Epic Feats until level... 53-ish? I know it seems like a serious gimp, but imagine a Mystic Theurge at Level 30 with full caster progression in Divine and Arcane. With Level 9 Divine and Arcane spells, and maxed Knowledge(Arcana, Religion) and Spellcraft, think of the Epic Spells this guy is already going to have. (4 per day at Level 24, 6 at 27, 8 at 37, ...) I have watched the Bladesinger's slow nerfing (Web Enhancements notwithstanding) all the way from the 2e Kit. Expensive, yes. Disappointing, yes. Back-end loaded, yes. Worst PrC ever, hardly. I think both of these are better than Arcane Archer. Yes, but doesn't the MT get a bonus feat every six levels at epic? That is the worst rate that I am aware of . . . SO you are still going to end up ahead in epic feats in the long run (addmittedly very long) as a wizard/cleric both of which will get epic feats faster when they get there.
JulesCARV 04-05-07, 12:18 AM	Bear in mind that a wizard gets bonus feats (which can be used to select epic wizard bonus feats, as per the "adding a second class" section of the epic rules) every five levels anyway. If you value wizard and cleric casting equally, taking more wizard levels is strictly superior to taking epic mystic theurge levels.
geekmasterflash 04-05-07, 12:37 AM	Bear in mind .... HOLY CRAP, THERE IS A BEAR IN YOUR HEAD?!
JulesCARV 04-05-07, 12:47 AM	It's like a phthisic, except less humanoid and more ursine.
boots_pimpleton 08-19-07, 06:02 PM	Interesting, Exemplar still isn't used by spell casters? Well there IS a use for Exemplars, but only with these two classes. Archivist (HoH), who uses skill checks (as a move action) instead of turning attempts to do some really interesting things. AKA Dread Secret ANY HD monster of a single type/race and it is stunned, no save, for up to 7 rounds. Even better, these checks also let you do extra damage, +3d6 damage extra for everyone who attacks the creature physically. Mind you, with exemplar, this is with a take 10 no effort guarenteed. Next one, Truespeaker, sure truespeak is a skill with Tome of Magic. Some of their "spells" are great, but requrie an outrageous successful truespeak DC, one that usually has a 50% chance of success due to high DC. Exemplar comes in by taking 10 and giving bonuses to truespeak. 35 auto truespeak check at level 13. Anyways, those are my only applications for Exemplar.
The_Shaman 08-19-07, 06:54 PM	I've read that a factotum could make use of exemplar levels. Me, I'd say I probably wouldn't bother, but it's a matter of style.
Jaxgaret 08-20-07, 02:01 AM	If you allow the inclusion of 3.0, I'd like to add Candlecaster into the mix. In the early levels it takes two rounds to cast a spell using your candle. Also, for the whole point of being the prestige class, you have to spend lots of downtime, gold pieces, and XP to make your candles on a continuous basis. I don't know why but I've always had a soft spot for the Candle Caster. I just like the idea of the class but have never had a character that fit the concept well enough to play one except my goblin sorcerer but he didn't get to be played long enough. Candle Casters are definitely not bad. Sure, they aren't much better than going straight Wizard - but they aren't bad. Plus they get one of the all-time best abilities in D&D - the Striped Candle. Why yes, I would like to be able to cast an extra spell this round, without using an extra action. Good thing I have this ability (that stacks with any other method I have of garnering additional actions per round) that lets me do exactly that. :) As to the OP's question: the Prophet of Erathaol is not the weakest PrC, but it does have a major flaw. Its one class feature, Ecstacy, can be fun to fool around with for roleplaying's sake - but it has the incredible drawback of instantly allowing any hostiles within 30 feet capable of possession to attempt to possess you, at a -2 to your Will save to boot! If I were a baddie looking to possess someone, I would find one of these suckers and just follow them around until I'm in like Flynn. There would be clouds of monsters orbiting, just waiting to control Madame Possessmeplease.
oreththecentaur 08-20-07, 01:45 PM	The Highland Stalker for complete adventurer. Mostly because it's the only prestige class with skirmish damage progression, but it's crap otherwise.
millerwc 08-20-07, 02:24 PM	I would have to say anything from the BoEF, for those of you who don't know that abbreviation, count yourself lucky.
A_Ninja_Errant 08-20-07, 02:58 PM	Anything from a "Races of" book intended solely for the new race introduced in that book. I personally find the extra races they threw in as filler to be complete garbage. Unless the DM designs his game with them in mind, then the only people with that race, in the entire world, are PCs and probably only one of them. It just doesn't mesh well. This is not to say that if you want to have a game with them in it it's a bad idea, just that they don't fit into most campaign worlds. So basically those Prestige classes, no matter how good or balanced they may be, fit poorly into most campaigns. Now I guess they were trying to make the races covered by the books "special", by giving them prestige classes no one else can take, but it seems like it would have made more sense to design most of those prestige classes, so that, while they make sense for the new race, they could also be used by other established races. It just seems to me to be kinda sucky that 1/3rd of all the material in those books is useless to most players, most of the time. I also find all 3 to be kinda lame and uninteresting, but thats just me. ;)
Keenath 08-20-07, 03:22 PM	PRCs, where to start... In the original DMG, we have the Arcane Archer, who has been roundly denounced already, but deserves the extra abuse. It's quite difficult to qualify for; it's not possible to get into this class before 7th level -- which is pretty late for a 10-level PRC -- and it gives no caster progression, which stunts your casting at 4th level spells at best. And that's if you take 8 wiz levels, delaying PRC entry until 11th. So, with Arcane Archer, you can either be half a wizard with a bow that won't hit anything of interest... or a fighter with some magic powers that aren't worth even looking at and an Imbue Arrow that's worthless. Obviously this is meant to be a class for full BAB characters. And then, you get a capstone power whose save is so ridiculously low at its earliest possible character level -- 17 -- that most decently challenging monsters can only fail by rolling 1. Even a decently equipped wizard has better than a 50/50 chance of surviving! In fact, I find that more than anything else I hate PRCs that simply don't match the class or class combination that is required to enter them. The Eldritch Knight isn't bad; he's boring, a bit, but not bad at all. The Wayfairer Guide also isn't totally horrible -- but it's only good for the 1-level dip because losing a caster level is too great a cost for the moderate benefits of the class. The Greenstar Adept, however, is a horror of a class. You need a strong spellcasting background to start it, then you lose a ton of caster levels in exchange for defensive boosts. You wind up as a half-caster, half-tank monstrosity that can't do either one well.
ilikefrogs 08-20-07, 05:08 PM	I see a lot of people complaining about Arcane Archer, but it seems everyone thinks it has to be a Fighter/Wizard build. I built one out of a pure Bard that worked pretty well. Yes, that puts off qualifying until 9th level, but you get 3rd level spells and Bardic music.
Jaxgaret 08-21-07, 01:03 AM	I see a lot of people complaining about Arcane Archer, but it seems everyone thinks it has to be a Fighter/Wizard build. I built one out of a pure Bard that worked pretty well. Yes, that puts off qualifying until 9th level, but you get 3rd level spells and Bardic music. I love Bards. They're so versatile and can specialize in almost any direction one chooses. Hexblade4/Marshal2 is another decent way to qualify for the AA, and provides some additional support to the party. Duskblade1/Fighter2/Ranger2/Knight1 can also be good.
imakuni67 08-21-07, 10:31 AM	[QUOTE=runestar;11639591]Dragon disciple is actually a fun prc to play, albeit a tad underpowered. The trick is realizing that you are playing a fighter which access to just a dash of spellcasting for support, and tailor your playing style appropriately. You are not a main spellcaster, and never will be. QUOTE] I played one and we added that it gets +1 spellcasting at 3, 6, and 9 and it was balanced just fine that way. My vote? Exotic Weapon Master from Masters of the Wild. Rage has what to do with exotic weapons!?
The_Shaman 08-21-07, 05:20 PM	Hey, at least that EWM got to master anything. Not like the butchered corpse that is the CW EWM... GSA is weird, but actually it does not lose caster level that much - iirc its CL is full, just the spells known/slot progression is halved. As far as tankish casters go, I've seen worse.
Jaxgaret 08-21-07, 05:40 PM	GSA is weird, but actually it does not lose caster level that much - iirc its CL is full, just the spells known/slot progression is halved. As far as tankish casters go, I've seen worse. Agreed. It's similar to the Dragon Disciple - if you come into it thinking you're going to be a caster, you're dead wrong. It's a melee PrC for characters who want a splash of casting. As such, it benefits from the same kinds of builds that the DD does - Barbarian1/Bard4 is a good one, as are builds involving the Hexblade or Duskblade. Bard4/Warblade1 (or Crusader1) can be an excellent entrance as well.
posternutbag 08-21-07, 05:42 PM	The Fochlucan Lyrist is actually a really good PrC. It is not unplayable at low levels. It works well if you take 2 levels of Rogue, then Bard and Druid. You can be the party Trapfinder/Diplomancer. The worst PrCs 5) Maester: yeah, it sucks, I think. I've never actually gotten through reading the whole PrC. That says something. 4) Frenzied Bezerker: Its problems have been well stated already. 3) Planar Sheperd: Ludicrously overpowered. 2) Hulking Hurler: To me, the worst PrCs are the ones that completely wreck party dynamics. PrCs 4-2 fit. 1) Cloaked Dancer. Ok, probably not number 1, might not even deserve to be on a list with the Frenzied Bezerker, Hulking Hurler and Planar Sheperd, but this PrC is more than worthless unless you play in a very socially based game. Its like something out White Wolf dreamed up. whats next, a mechanic for tipping?
The_Shaman 08-21-07, 06:05 PM	BTW, speaking for the Psionics board, I feel compelled to present the Metamind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/metamind.htm). Not that it is the weakest possible PrC per se, it's just plain bad at what it is supposed to be good at, which is manifesting stamina. As iirc TempestStormwind put it so eloquently, "Metaminds suck, but once per day they can suck for free for a minute."
Staple 08-21-07, 10:40 PM	Bad PrCs: -Shining Blade of Heironeous (Complete Divine): Pretty much only available to Paladins, almost no class features, half spell progression. More levels in Paladin are almost always better. The thing that really bugs me about this class is that it doesn't have the expected multiclassing clause; if a Paladin becomes a Shining Blade, he'll have to take Monastic Training if he wants to take any more levels as a Paladin! -Dragon Disciple (Dungeon Master's Guide): 10 levels of 3/4 BAB and no spell progression to gain a +3 level adjustment template. Um, what? -Geomancer (Complete Divine): You can do worse than Geomancer (I even played one in a low power game), but it has a lot that's wrong with it. It's a dual casting class that only grants progression in one class per level. Drift features are cool, but many of them require entering melee; on a d6 hit die, that's not an attractive prospect, and it's made even worse for Geomancers who are increasing their arcane side and don't have a high enough Spell Versatility score to keep their armor. Essentially, the class pulls in too many directions at once, and winds up going nowhere. -Death's Chosen (Libris Mortis): This is essentially a Prestige Class reserved only for cohorts of high level Undead PCs. In addition to being narrow, its class abilities are reliant on being within 30 feet of its master; since Undead PCs are usually casters and their cohorts are frequently melee characters, this requires the caster to be within striking distance of foes or for the fighter have foes out of his. -Cloud Anchorite (Frostburn): It's hard to imagine a Prestige Class that contains an ability that makes you literally immortal that is still bad, but Cloud Anchorite does just that. The Anchorite restricts the character from using armor or more most weapons, and most of its class features vanish when not on a mountain. Unlike a real monk, it doesn't even have all good saves. As for Arcane Archer, you can rather easily get into it before 7th level. Duskblade and Hexblade both grant the BAB and spellcasting, and even let you keep using your spellcasting in the armor you already have. Sure, you don't gain any progression, but neither class has a spell list that's particularly important to the class. Then you're getting decent class features and can dump the money you would be spending on a hard bonus to your weapon into enhancements. Arcane Archer is in no way a bad class unless you're stuck with Core material; I've heard more than one argument that Arcane Archer is the most powerful Prestige in the DMG, and after having one in my game (She went in via Duskblade), I'm inclined to agree.
Manyfist 08-21-07, 11:43 PM	Double post (sorry).
Manyfist 08-21-07, 11:49 PM	The Greenstar Adept, however, is a horror of a class. You need a strong spellcasting background to start it, then you lose a ton of caster levels in exchange for defensive boosts. You wind up as a half-caster, half-tank monstrosity that can't do either one well. It just requires 1 level in any arcane spell casting class. Barbarian X/Bard 1/ Greenstar Adept. Its mostly for melee, but the spells add a little something extra like some repair spells and what not. Construct type is very good, and the class very flavorful. ;) -Cloud Anchorite (Frostburn): It's hard to imagine a Prestige Class that contains an ability that makes you literally immortal that is still bad, but Cloud Anchorite does just that. The Anchorite restricts the character from using armor or more most weapons, and most of its class features vanish when not on a mountain. Unlike a real monk, it doesn't even have all good saves. Two features "vanish" when you leave mountainous terrain, and its just bonuses dealing with mountainous terrain. Its a monk PrC, and its for mostly mountainous terrains, so it makes since to have ties to the mountains.
A_Ninja_Errant 08-22-07, 08:38 PM	There's one I saw recently somewhere in the WOTC archives, I think its called the Arcane Duelist. It allows you to gain a big bonus to your crit range...in exchange for jettisoning 90% of your damage. It gives you a very few crappy spell abilities. It's prereqs are fairly high(for a low-level Prc), and almost any build of rogue/sorcerer is better. An Eldritch Knight who uses a Rapier is better. An Arcane Trickster is better. The Prc is so pathetic it almost makes you feel sorry for it.:raincloud
The_Shaman 08-22-07, 09:31 PM	Not bad, but I'm still true to my original choice, the Celebrant of Sharess. Those already listed are hands-down poor PrCs, but it is an incredible mix of harsh prerequisites, unrelated abilities, poor performance at its role - most of them, at least - and plain lack of any common sense.
A_Ninja_Errant 08-22-07, 11:22 PM	Not bad, but I'm still true to my original choice, the Celebrant of Sharess. Those already listed are hands-down poor PrCs, but it is an incredible mix of harsh prerequisites, unrelated abilities, poor performance at its role - most of them, at least - and plain lack of any common sense. Well I'm not too sure about the harshness of the pre-reqs, but you're certainly right that its a mish-mash of abilities that make no sense together. They said they were going for worshippers of her war deity aspect, but they gave them a poor attack bonus and bard-type spells. And then they get pounce. They have a vow of purity...and the flirtation ability. Even if they are worshipping her from a different aspect, they should still at least respect her current form. I kinda think the vow of purity kills that tho I'm not up on the details of Exalted Deeds stuff. I'm not too sure on power level but it would be really hard to make a good build with the class. It's even harder to make a thematically sensible character with it. That has gotta be some of the marks of a really bad Prc.
claypigeons 08-22-07, 11:47 PM	Flayerspawn Psychic. I hate this class so much... :mad: :mad: :censored: Metamind is pretty worthless too (most of the time. It can be broken...).
arderkrag 08-23-07, 03:58 AM	Bladesinger. Comparatively, it has the highest requirements with the least reward of all the PrCs. Which is why most people use house rules for it. BS is supposed to make an elf a "one-elf army". Ours works like this: Fighter BAB Good Ref & Wills You lose all proficiency with armor and bows. Class specials are gained at same levels. However, the once per day garbage is removed from the casting ability to give them the ability to quicken any spell they know below the level listed once per round. At tenth level, the spell level cap disappears. You gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to (1/2 your total level +1). In conjunction with my parrying rules (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=907041), bladesingers (along with weaponmasters, ewms, and duelists) can make extra parries each round up to their total number attacks, essentially getting a set of parry actions for free.
Pinfeldorf 08-23-07, 04:44 AM	My vote definitely goes to Squire of Legend.
The_Shaman 08-23-07, 06:28 AM	Is that even official WotC material? I've never heard of it. As for the celebrant, well, being exalted is no walk in the park in itself. And then: vow of purity. Okay, it could be worse, it could be vow of chastity, but still I get the feeling that the chosen of Sharess who adhere at least partially to her war mantle would be a little less, well, dainty than that. Plus, as a feline deity and favoring claw weapons, I'd expect that Sharess would actually approve of one getting somewhat... guttural when fighting. The worst part about it for me personally is that I like Sharess, especially because of her several aspects. This PrC feels like a complete joke.
Solian 08-23-07, 11:12 AM	i remember seeing somebody put up duelist on here before. I used to think they were pretty weak until we got one in our DnD group, which consists of a Rogue/Wizard/Spellthief, Beguiler and Rogue/Assassin. He works really well with our group because we are all specialised in stealth and he can fight pretty well and be able to stealth wiht us when needs be (ok, we may need a few buffs here and there, but y'know, still pretty good) The worst PrC i've seen would have to be Maester. It just doesn't work well at all. Coming in a close second is Frenzied Berserker, which my DM has (thank God) Disallowed Players to go into.
RabidPirateMan 08-24-07, 04:55 PM	I think the Acolyte of the Skin PrC is horrifically dissapointing. For a class with so much flavor, you get so little. 5/10 caster levels, terrible BAB bonus, and a bunch of worthless skills that you could surpass effect-wise if you had just continued your spellcasting levels. What were they thinking?
Line_of_light 08-24-07, 10:28 PM	i dont know if any one has brought this one up but the combat trapsmith is a stupid prestige class. who in there right mind wants to take the time to set a trap during combat, and then you dont even know if it will be set off.
Jaxgaret 08-25-07, 03:12 AM	I think the Acolyte of the Skin PrC is horrifically dissapointing. For a class with so much flavor, you get so little. 5/10 caster levels, terrible BAB bonus, and a bunch of worthless skills that you could surpass effect-wise if you had just continued your spellcasting levels. What were they thinking? It is pretty mishmashed and weak. You're probably best off going something like Marshal4/Sorcerer1, and taking Practiced Spellcaster to qualify for the AotS. Nice Cha synergy between the three classes. The spellcasting comes in second in the build, of course. It will never be the primary focus. It's not pretty, but it's not the worst character either.
Biolyticclod 08-25-07, 04:26 AM	My top vote is Eldritch Knight, closely followed by mystic theurge. It's not only that they are bad, they are also in the DMG for any novice-dm to see. Take a look at the name "Prestige Class", the one word is class and the other is prestige. At least to me that means members of these clases are something special and the Assassin and Shadow Dancer for example both are. They are distinctly different from the base classes and have a background what they are and what they do. Eldritch Knight lacks everything. He just gets nothing but a better bab. Writing it down is 95% of the amount of work put into this class. The Mystic Theurge is not much better and I think giving him the double amount of spells a character would normally get just can't be balanced. I agree with the Eldritch Knight point but the Mystic Theurge? Its balanced by the lack of special class abilities and if you're out to make a dual casing spellcaster thats the way to go... your CL goes up as well as your spells? Not to useless.... At least in my oipinion... I do like spellcasters... My vote would have to be the Eldritch Knight or the EWM... I also don't care much for the Red Wizards... I mean the class is pointles unless the party has multiple wizards all of which have at least one lvl of Red Wizard... Circle Magic cool; the only one that can use circle magic not cool.
Solian 08-25-07, 07:54 AM	i dont know if any one has brought this one up but the combat trapsmith is a stupid prestige class. who in there right mind wants to take the time to set a trap during combat, and then you dont even know if it will be set off. Actually, combat trapsmith is a very good PrC, one of my players cohorts is one, and he usually just scouts ahead, lays traps and then leads the opponents into an ambush where they can't do anything because of all the traps. There good in a party full of rogues and stealthy characters which are able to kill everything in the surprise round.
A_Ninja_Errant 08-26-07, 03:36 AM	My vote would have to be the Eldritch Knight or the EWM... I also don't care much for the Red Wizards... I mean the class is pointles unless the party has multiple wizards all of which have at least one lvl of Red Wizard... Circle Magic cool; the only one that can use circle magic not cool. If you are the sole red wizard then yeah it can suck, but if you have leadership, and your cohort is a Red Wizard, and one or two other PCs are Red Wizards....Its not too hard to get your caster level well past 30 by level 15. Or get a buttload of free metamagic. I think the benefit is primarily meant for high level NPCs to get a massive boost from all their flunkies.
The_Shaman 08-26-07, 04:23 PM	I agree with the Eldritch Knight point but the Mystic Theurge? Its balanced by the lack of special class abilities and if you're out to make a dual casing spellcaster thats the way to go... your CL goes up as well as your spells? Not to useless.... At least in my oipinion... I do like spellcasters... My vote would have to be the Eldritch Knight or the EWM... I also don't care much for the Red Wizards... I mean the class is pointles unless the party has multiple wizards all of which have at least one lvl of Red Wizard... Circle Magic cool; the only one that can use circle magic not cool. Have you ever checked the Ethran feat? As for the EK, meh, it's not so bad. Very bland, sure, but not exactly bad.
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 04:43 PM	As for the EK, meh, it's not so bad. Very bland, sure, but not exactly bad. I'll have to agree with this. It's nowhere near the worst PrC ever. It actually does its job reasonably well - make a useful gish character possible with core-only material.
A_Ninja_Errant 08-26-07, 06:01 PM	I'll have to agree with this. It's nowhere near the worst PrC ever. It actually does its job reasonably well - make a useful gish character possible with core-only material. I like the eldritch knight. Yeah it doesn't have any particular flavor of it's own, but that just means you can do what you want with it. Actually in some ways (spellcasting) it's significantly better than the spellsword. So what if he doesn't gain anything "special"? Just being able to fight and cast arcane spells is well worthwhile, and pretty special in itself. At least in core. Power creep kinda hurts its image.
Yak of Darkness 08-26-07, 06:45 PM	Other classes might be silly, or mostly useless outside of a very specific range, but only the Metamind goes out of its way to make sure that you not only suck at everything compared to the guy who just went with the base class, you especially suck at the one thing you were supposed to be good at. It'd be like if the Gnome Giant Slayer gave you -10 to attacks and AC against giants, or if the Eldritch Knight took away spellcasting levels, or if the Pyrokineticist made you explode and die in a fire. The Metamind is the only PrC I know of that is (and can only be) actively harmful for your character to take.
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 10:09 PM	The Metamind is the only PrC I know of that is (and can only be) actively harmful for your character to take. My earlier entry, the Prophet of Erathaol, has the same problem. That is, if you intend to use its one and only class feature besides 9/10 spellcasting progression; the more often you use Ecstacy, the more likely it is that it will come back and bite you in the ass. Not only that, but it requires the selection of 4 weak feats to qualify for it.
wolf_man007 08-28-07, 09:49 AM	A roiling sphere of rancid buttnuggets. Best description of anything ever.
ZigMover 08-28-07, 07:38 PM	Eldritch Knight lacks everything. He just gets nothing but a better bab. Writing it down is 95% of the amount of work put into this class. The Mystic Theurge is not much better and I think giving him the double amount of spells a character would normally get just can't be balanced. Eldritch Knight is good in conjunction with Abjurant Champion for elves that want to own people in the face... And Mystic Theurge is just awesome for those that want to be able to cast 9th level arcane and divine spells at lvl. 20...
Jaxgaret 08-29-07, 12:21 AM	Master of Masks. A roiling sphere of rancid buttnuggets. Best description of anything ever. Sigged :)
Shedeo 08-29-07, 02:25 AM	... And Mystic Theurge is just awesome for those that want to be able to cast 9th level arcane and divine spells at lvl. 20... Except that, AFAIK, there's no real way to do that with Mystic Theurge. I really like Master of Masks. Honestly, I really do. I just wish that it wasn't so... Poor.
The_Shaman 08-29-07, 08:05 AM	You can, iirc. Druid/wizard with MT and Arcane Hierophant, CL 17 in both classes. Although in this case I would suggest that you go AH and use the Theurge to simply fill the remaining levels.
Propane 08-30-07, 04:02 AM	I'mma go with Argent Savant from Complete Arcane. It looks like a really cool class, but there just aren't enough [force] spells backing it up. Also there is a dead spell casting level (1st) and a pretty useless class ability at the end (5th.) I first saw it and thought it'd be awesome, but the only time I've really seen it mentioned on the forums is when someone was trying to do everything they could to buff the crap out of Magic Missiles (I think they got it to like 300 damage to everything in existence).
ninjarabbit 08-30-07, 07:54 AM	My vote goes to blighter, mostly because you basically have to be a 5th level druid to get into it and you lose your druid abilities as soon as you enter the PrC. I think that it's the only time where a character gets significantly weaker as a result of taking a class level, going from casting 3rd level spells to casting 1st level spells among other things.
peteyrock 08-30-07, 11:08 AM	I agree with whoever posted earlier that Wayfarer Guide is completely worthless. The only thing it's really good for is running the hell away if you're getting your ass kicked.
Mark_Aged 08-30-07, 11:25 AM	I don't like the Eldritch Knight myself. Kind of can't grasp why you'd want to take levels in it, but then again, I'm new to D&D. And how come a lot of you don't like the Dragon Disciple? That's the only Prestige Class I've found that I want 10 levels in!
The_Shaman 08-30-07, 11:38 AM	Here's a hint: in D&D, magic rules. This PrC requires you to have magical skills, gives you practically none, and does not even have a full BAB. Also, it has a catch: while it requires you to have some spellcaster levels, it is horrible for pure spellcasters.
Mark_Aged 08-30-07, 12:11 PM	Ah, I see. I like it because it helps me on the path to becoming a powerful being, with all sorts of powers (such as dragon like abilities). I guessed that was what everyone wants.
Avenger314 08-31-07, 08:55 AM	I'd vote Thaumaturgist. It's only accessible to clerics, yet it has d4 HD, bad BaB, and its abilities are mediocre at best. Basically, you give up most of the best cleric things, in order to... make a costly feature like summoning a little less costly. Sigh. Jim
bane_of_cuthbert 08-31-07, 09:29 AM	Alright, seeing as nothing from the book has been mentioned so far, it's time to start ragging on Magic of Eberron. Alchemist Savant - You can..... make alot of potions.... yay? Elemental Scion of Zilargo - Though grafts by themselves are cool, I don't know of any PC that would want to take levels in this due to no spellcasting progression (well kinda, but only for purpose of CL for elemental spells), an average BAB, and lack lustre abilities that don't really compliment any class. Renegade Mastermaker - I have a huge beef with this PrC which flavour-wise is pretty much made for the articifer. It essentially, over 10 levels, gives you abilities that you would pretty much have if you started as a warforged artificer at level 1 with a lower spell casting progression than a normal artifacer, and without their bonus crafting feats or craft reserve. To sum this one up, useless. Well that's my rant on some of the junk published in Magic of Eberron. As far as other ones go, Maester and Bladesinger are pretty bad and Fenzied Berserker has pretty much been relegated to an NPC PrC (and indeed it can be very fun to send after your PCs) but the one that takes the cake for me is Metamind. Tempest Stormwind summed it up perfectly.
Jaxgaret 08-31-07, 01:51 PM	Ah, I see. I like it because it helps me on the path to becoming a powerful being, with all sorts of powers (such as dragon like abilities). I guessed that was what everyone wants. It only helps you on the path to becoming a powerful being in the sense that taking *almost any PC class* does the same thing. The best Dragon Disciple builds just fall short of being the true melee monsters they need to be to be worth it. Not to mention that spellcasting > melee in 3.5. Now, I'm not saying the DD is one of the worst PrCs - but it is definitely not one of the better ones. I agree with whoever posted earlier that Wayfarer Guide is completely worthless. The only thing it's really good for is running the hell away if you're getting your ass kicked. Hey, there's a time and a place for running the hell away. Sometimes you're just going to get your ass handed to you - it happens :)
liquoriceanimal 09-01-07, 08:44 AM	Ollam from Complete Adventurer.
boots_pimpleton 09-01-07, 03:23 PM	I disaggree with both propane and ninjarabbit, sure ardent savent may not look that good, but with a bit of tweaking you can basicly equip your entire pary (use warweaver HoB) with +14 AC prevents magic missles and applies to incoporeal. I think ardent savent isnt great upon itself and requires the help of another prestige class to really shine. As for blighter, sure you will start out with level 1 spells, but like the powerful Ur-preist you get 1 additional level of spells per LEVEL. Sure you start out rather weak, but the spell casting itself is rather strong. As for the blighters abilities, only undead wildshape and blightfire is somewhat decent in trade off for being a regular druid. Again, its not using a PrC strait up that makes some of them really shine. For both blighter and ur-preist you can "cheat" by taking another PrC which increases your CL and gives you spells at every level, you would get a level of spells per level of the "secondary" PrC and you would get ALL of the abilites of the "secondary" PrC. And now you will say that these classes wern't meant to be used in this way? Well if they wernt meant to be used in this way, they would indeed be lacking.
Khatoblepas 09-01-07, 03:52 PM	I disaggree with both propane and ninjarabbit, sure ardent savent may not look that good, but with a bit of tweaking you can basicly equip your entire pary (use warweaver HoB) with +14 AC prevents magic missles and applies to incoporeal. I think ardent savent isnt great upon itself and requires the help of another prestige class to really shine. As for blighter, sure you will start out with level 1 spells, but like the powerful Ur-preist you get 1 additional level of spells per LEVEL. Sure you start out rather weak, but the spell casting itself is rather strong. As for the blighters abilities, only undead wildshape and blightfire is somewhat decent in trade off for being a regular druid. Again, its not using a PrC strait up that makes some of them really shine. For both blighter and ur-preist you can "cheat" by taking another PrC which increases your CL and gives you spells at every level, you would get a level of spells per level of the "secondary" PrC and you would get ALL of the abilites of the "secondary" PrC. And now you will say that these classes wern't meant to be used in this way? Well if they wernt meant to be used in this way, they would indeed be lacking. Except that Ur-Priest can be entered by someone other than a 5th level druid, and the Ur-Priest's spell list is pretty good, unlike the Blighter's. Have you ever SEEN a blighter's spell list? Truly awful compared to a druid.
GEEKAZOID 09-01-07, 04:13 PM	I think the greenstar adept is a waste. You can get the same abilities at first level without any requirements or loss of spellcatsing. If becoming a living construct is that important to you, play a warforged. Think about it, you need to take a special class available at around 6th level and loose levels of spellcasting to gain abilities that don't break the game if granted free at first level.
Xavorin 09-01-07, 08:01 PM	This by far isn't the worst, but I'd have to say that Radiant Servant of Pelor isn't super-great. The feats automatically applying to healing spells you cast as domain spells is nice, but remember: you only get one domain spell of each level per day. Before anybody attacks me for the above, though, I'd like to remind said people that I'm not saying it's the worst, just that it's far from the best.
Khatoblepas 09-01-07, 08:27 PM	This by far isn't the worst, but I'd have to say that Radiant Servant of Pelor isn't super-great. The feats automatically applying to healing spells you cast as domain spells is nice, but remember: you only get one domain spell of each level per day. Before anybody attacks me for the above, though, I'd like to remind said people that I'm not saying it's the worst, just that it's far from the best. It gets martial weapon proficiency, extra domains, and greater turning, and full spell progression. What more do you want for a cleric PrC? o__O
ArgulFraster 09-01-07, 10:30 PM	I have to say Fatespinner, from a book of prestige classes I have on a disc. Gee, so you get to take points from your rolls and add them later? And you can have a maximum amount of four? At tenth level? And you don't continue to gain spells? Gee, how useful.
ninjarabbit 09-01-07, 10:42 PM	I disaggree with both propane and ninjarabbit, sure ardent savent may not look that good, but with a bit of tweaking you can basicly equip your entire pary (use warweaver HoB) with +14 AC prevents magic missles and applies to incoporeal. I think ardent savent isnt great upon itself and requires the help of another prestige class to really shine. As for blighter, sure you will start out with level 1 spells, but like the powerful Ur-preist you get 1 additional level of spells per LEVEL. Sure you start out rather weak, but the spell casting itself is rather strong. As for the blighters abilities, only undead wildshape and blightfire is somewhat decent in trade off for being a regular druid. Again, its not using a PrC strait up that makes some of them really shine. For both blighter and ur-preist you can "cheat" by taking another PrC which increases your CL and gives you spells at every level, you would get a level of spells per level of the "secondary" PrC and you would get ALL of the abilites of the "secondary" PrC. And now you will say that these classes wern't meant to be used in this way? Well if they wernt meant to be used in this way, they would indeed be lacking. Let's review the blighter: -The blighter pretty much forces you to be a 5th level druid and those 5 druid levels become dead levels once you take a level of blighter. So a fourth of your character becomes useless (assuming you get to level 20) -At level 6 an ex-druid5/blighter1 is only casting 1st level spells with little else to offer, at level 7 an ex-druid5/blighter2 is only casting second levels spells and again offering very little else. Good luck living to see those higher levels since you'll need to be a 6th level blighter before your spellcasting is back on par with a druid and your class abilities are way behind a druid. -It's almost impossible to "cheat' effectively with a blighter because of those dead druid levels. An ex-druid5/wizard3/blighter2/mystictheurge1 for example is only casting 2nd level wizard spells and 3rd level blighter spells at ECL 11, an almost useless character at that level considering a pure druid, wizard, or cleric is casting 6th level spells at that level. -As mentioned earlier, the blighter spell list isn't all that great and it's spell list will never get bigger new splatbooks unlike the druid and other core casters. -The constant deforestation needed to get your spells and abilities can become problematic. You become pretty much useless if you're in an area where you can deforest and it's going to attact the attention of some druids and/or other nature lovers sooner or later.
boots_pimpleton 09-02-07, 05:36 PM	Fair enough, but without story purpose or consequence, pure spell power at 15th level is pretty good if you ask me, though true, after level 15 it dont really matter since blighter looses its "spell level" edge on other PrCs. So it is true, Blighters suck at all levels besides level 14 and 15 (why play a character at only 2 levels, i have no idea). That in itself isnt worth driving nearly 8 useless levels and before that 5completely useless levels. Thanks for giving me a reality check on blighters. I do much prefer ur-preists over blighters anyways =D
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 08:35 PM	I think the greenstar adept is a waste. You can get the same abilities at first level without any requirements. If becoming a living construct is that important to you, play a warforged. Except that GSAs become full Constructs, not just Living Constructs. This by far isn't the worst, but I'd have to say that Radiant Servant of Pelor isn't super-great. The feats automatically applying to healing spells you cast as domain spells is nice, but remember: you only get one domain spell of each level per day. Before anybody attacks me for the above, though, I'd like to remind said people that I'm not saying it's the worst, just that it's far from the best. It gets martial weapon proficiency, extra domains, and greater turning, and full spell progression. What more do you want for a cleric PrC? o__O RSoP is badass, 'nuff said. I have to say Fatespinner, from a book of prestige classes I have on a disc. Gee, so you get to take points from your rolls and add them later? And you can have a maximum amount of four? At tenth level? And you don't continue to gain spells? Gee, how useful. Re-rolls can be enormously helpful - if the class gave nothing but Fickle Finger of Fate and Resist Fate, it would be worth it. Adding +4 to the DC of a single spell every day (or +4 to a skill check or saving throw) is sweet, sweet icing on the cake.
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 08:43 PM	Blighters are great for NPCs and Epic characters. A Druid5/MoMF10/Warshaper5/Blighter10 is seriously wicked.
The_Shaman 09-03-07, 11:25 AM	Eh, epic games are a whole different ball-game. Mind you, even with that combo, a druid 26 is nothing to sneer at... Those epic spells are nice, and bonus feats are cool too. Anyway, for a blighter-like character with less suck, the Blightlord (Talontar Blightlord, Unapproachable East) is imo a cooler and way stronger option. I don't think blighter is the worst PrC ever, but it's definitely not a good one imo. OTOH, if you've been kicked out of the druid order and can't go back, it's one way to get some magical power. ArgulFraster, what version of the Fatespinner do you have? I know the one from CArcane which had 4/5 progression and was considered a pretty okay short dip, possibly even worth the full five levels.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 12:04 PM	Eh, epic games are a whole different ball-game. I never said they weren't :) I'll have to check out that Talontar Blightlord.
Alpha_Moose 09-03-07, 01:00 PM	ArgulFraster, what version of the Fatespinner do you have? I know the one from CArcane which had 4/5 progression and was considered a pretty okay short dip, possibly even worth the full five levels. It's very easy to meet the requirements, so going for 4 levels is great. At 5th level you do lose a spellcaster level, but you can 1/day drop or raise someone's saves by 10 (as a free action!). That's a pretty tempting offer, especially if your going for SoDs.
Nephlite 09-03-07, 01:20 PM	I don't like the Eldritch Knight myself. Kind of can't grasp why you'd want to take levels in it, but then again, I'm new to D&D. And how come a lot of you don't like the Dragon Disciple? That's the only Prestige Class I've found that I want 10 levels in! Dragon Disciple is not a spell casting Prc. It adds bonus spells, but at level you got level (meaning unless you wait for long time, lots of low level spells). Physical benefit: 1. Natural +3 2. +4 str 3. +2 Int: you don't even gain Charisma 4. +2 Con 5. Breath weapon 4d8, 1/day 6. wings: Average (weaker than fly spell) Finally at 10th; +2 Cha, +4 Str, +1 more NA. Now: What does it give? +2 Cha and a few more bonus spells/day. But unless you wait till high levls to enter all the bonus spells will be low level spells (a million low level spells is not as good asa couple high level spells). A warrior type class/Sorceror? +4 NA (really nice), +8 Str, +2 Con, and a breath weapon. Conclusion: if making a melee dude with 1 level sorceror: decent class. But not for casting. My vote is the Metamind: Worst Prc ever. It doesn't even do what it says it does. It contradicts itself. 1/day, you don't suck for a short time, yay!
Lord_Cerventes 09-03-07, 07:35 PM	I love this PrC but it isn't very usefull..... Apostle of Peace. You can't fight or harm any living creature and you can't own items. Now you can occasionly fight constructs and undead, but very rarely. About the only thing you can do is heal, and Radiant servent of pelor is much better at that.
Planeswalker459 09-03-07, 08:31 PM	The Bladesinger is my vote. Compared to the 2nd edition version....there is almost nothing in common. Granted, for third they had to weaken its power, but come on? All it is is a glorified bard! I would rather take the 10 levels in bard and get that stuff then the weaker bladesinger stuff. No versatility.
GEEKAZOID 09-03-07, 09:14 PM	Except that GSAs become full Constructs, not just Living Constructs. Is that worth the loss of two spellcasting levels?
Splarg 09-04-07, 04:55 AM	Eldritch Knight gets my vote for suck, I find the Spellsword to be far superior simply because you can wear armour with an increasingly reduced spellfailure chance. you only get 5 caster levels instead of the 9 EK but practiced spellcaster helps fix the caster level somewhat if not the greater amount of spells.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 10:20 AM	Is that worth the loss of two spellcasting levels? Did I say it was?
ninjarabbit 09-04-07, 10:36 AM	Eldritch Knight gets my vote for suck, I find the Spellsword to be far superior simply because you can wear armour with an increasingly reduced spellfailure chance. you only get 5 caster levels instead of the 9 EK but practiced spellcaster helps fix the caster level somewhat if not the greater amount of spells. Sorry but caster levels > mediocre class abilities. An eldritch knight can simply use the still spell feat on all of his spells and still be ahead of a spellsword casterwise.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-04-07, 10:42 AM	Dragonlord from Dragon Magic. It simply doesn't give you anything level-appropriate.
The_Shaman 09-04-07, 11:23 AM	Eldritch Knight gets my vote for suck, I find the Spellsword to be far superior simply because you can wear armour with an increasingly reduced spellfailure chance. you only get 5 caster levels instead of the 9 EK but practiced spellcaster helps fix the caster level somewhat if not the greater amount of spells. Meh. Mithral Chain shirt is 4 base AC, +6 max dexterity, 10 % asf (disappear with the twilight enhancement). At higher levels, getting 22+ dexterity is not a biggie, so it will be almost as good as any full plate (chain shirt AC + max dex to AC is only 1 point less than full plate AC + max dex to AC). A mithral shield - if you want one - has practically no ASF. With 3 spellsword levels, you can get Mithral full plate, but anything more is simply absurd - having more and higher-level spells is about the best thing ANY class can give you. And of course, you could play an EK with a caster that ignores ASF in light + armors (bard, beguiler, battle sorcerer, maybe warmage or dread necro but I don't have the books with me atm). For those classes Spellsword has little value. So no, the EK might not be a powerhouse, it could be bland and not so popular, but it does not suck. Especially to the spellsword - past level 3 (5 at most) it is much more useful.
Umbral 09-04-07, 12:53 PM	Eldrich Knight would in my opinion be a contender for best designed PrC of the whole of 3.5. Came out in the DMG, no one ever called it broken, and it is still chugging along as an acceptable choice. You see it around gaming tables and in builds on the character optimization board. Even after all the books that has come since the DMG, the Knight holds his own. Sure, it does not have sexy class features, it just does what it was intended to do, and does it well. It is the jobsworth of 3.5. Worst? I'd say the Mystic Theurge. Sure, there are PrCs out there which fails more badly, but the MT is from a core book, not a supplement. Slightly more design skill and proofreading was expected. Its like getting a fight for the heavyweight championships, and then not knowing how to fight. The MT is so weak that it is useless if played straight as a wizard/cleric. It is broken strong with fast-advancement classes. It is passably good for a brief-high-level period with the Arcane Hierophant. So useless as intended, broken as not intended, and only usable for a brief sweet spot in a place most games don't reach, as a squire to a differnt PrC. That is BAD.
GEEKAZOID 09-05-07, 12:32 PM	Did I say it was? Well, no...that's why I ask.
Jaxgaret 09-05-07, 06:07 PM	Well, no...that's why I ask. I was simply correcting your assertion that GSAs turn into Living Constructs. You can't just "play a Warforged" to "get the same abilities at first level" because base Warforged are not true Constructs.
GEEKAZOID 09-05-07, 09:02 PM	I was simply correcting your assertion that GSAs turn into Living Constructs. You can't just "play a Warforged" to "get the same abilities at first level" because base Warforged are not true Constructs.I'm not quite on board with that. There is sound logic there, but I'm leaning towards the difference being negligible. In practice I believe living construct and and green star adept construct are handled no differently. My point about the green star adept is that it is deemed PRESTIGIOUS to gain those abilities. The new abilities are so good you need to jump through hoops to qualify. And then the abilities have to be staggered so that you don't get them all at once and be overpowered. In fact you even sacrifice two levels of spells to compensate for the boost in power. But then we have the warforged who contradicts this. The warforged who gets 90% of these oh-so-awesome abilities without ever taking a level in any class; who as a first level spellcaster has these things already and freedom to choose anything for the next 19 levels. The GSA needs to wait patiently until its character levels reach the teens for abilities the WF has from day one. Either the WF is broken or the GSA becomes a construct with the NERF subtype.
Jaxgaret 09-05-07, 09:19 PM	I'm not quite on board with that. There is sound logic there, but I'm leaning towards the difference being negligible. In practice I believe living construct and and green star adept construct are handled no differently. GSA Constructs have plenty of advantages over Warforged Living Constructs: Immunity to spells that cause a Fortitude save, unless they also effect objects or are harmless. Spells that target "living creatures" don't affect them. Immunity to critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, death effects, necromancy effects. LLV/Darkvision. Many of those are huge, huge benefits. EDIT: There are 2 things that Warforged get that regular Constructs do not - immunity to nausea and becoming sickened. Relatively minor compared to what they don't get. Also, the GSA, like the Dragon Disciple, is not a caster class. It is a melee class disguised as a caster class; it is best entered by Duskblades, Battle Sorcerers, Bards, and Hexblades, perhaps with melee class levels mixed in. Casting is secondary.
Yue Ryong 09-05-07, 09:45 PM	I don't know about over all, but I always automatically think of the Bladesinger for this, as it's the only class I know of that grants an ability that literally does nothing, due to Song of Celerity attempting to Quicken a spell without changing it's casting time. >_<
GEEKAZOID 09-06-07, 12:13 PM	Has anyone mentioned the lasher yet? Has anyone played one?
Khatoblepas 09-06-07, 12:51 PM	Has anyone mentioned the lasher yet? Has anyone played one? Lashers are cool, lay offa them. They're pre-ToB melee classes, and 3.0 to boot, so they are, admittedly a little weak. a Swashy Rogue type's really good with it, though :)
ArkhamInmate 09-12-07, 04:36 AM	What about the Blood Mage from the Complete Arcane? it's not exactly broken, just seems useless to me
bane_of_cuthbert 09-12-07, 09:59 AM	What about the Blood Mage from the Complete Arcane? it's not exactly broken, just seems useless to me While it is ceratinly not the best, they are still able to get 9th level spellcasting, present some interesting roleplaying options, gain a few interesting abilities, and are great for the absent minded mage who keeps misplacing his/her scrolls and potions :) Another contender for the worst prestige class in my book is the Shadow Dancer. For most, it is esssentially a 1-level prestige class to get Hide in Plain Sight. This is due to the fact that most people who would take levels in it are rogues and the pretige class has no sneak attack progression and alot of ovelapping abilities. On top of this, their shadow jump ability can now be aquired with levels in swordsage (along with other goodies that wont overlap with the rogue).
RaivokasMagma 09-12-07, 10:01 AM	I vote Stoneblessed from Races of the Stone
The_Shaman 09-12-07, 03:54 PM	Not if you want to emulate racial features, which is its main purpose. Some pretty neat PrCs and abilities are only allowed to dwarves, gnomes and goliaths. Oh, and it's in Races of Stone, btw.
Avenger314 09-12-07, 05:29 PM	Void disciple and Entropomancer are pretty poor, stat-wise.
Jaxgaret 09-12-07, 09:21 PM	Void disciple and Entropomancer are pretty poor, stat-wise. The Entropomancer has some awesome abilities - particularly the Entropic Shield rerolls. Plus only DMs who are pricks allow the class but deny you your very own Sphere of Annihilation. But it does only give 5/10 casting, which was probably your point. It's best entered by divine casters who aren't as focused on their spellcasting.
endofdreams 10-03-07, 04:05 PM	I have always been diappointed with the Reaping mauler prestige class. -It assumes that an entrant would not already have imp. grapple, so it gives it as a class feature. (provided you keep away from that armor) -Its based off the assumption that size doesn't matter in a grapple. which is a faulty line of thought. the best grapplers always tend to be the biggest chap. - The special abilities are based off your wisdom score, instead of strength. so, unlike the synopsis of the prestige class eludes to, you are not a front line unarmed killer. Most base classes that benefit from a high wisdom, do not have good BAB. And are usually viewed as pious and sagacious individuals, not impulsive ... well, maulers. I guess it just lacks so much synergy with anything that it really is useless. I suppose ranger is a far reach, but the hit dice doesn't suggest they should be grappling in the midst of battle.
Operation_Shoestring 10-04-07, 05:11 PM	Hierophant? I know they wanted a divine archmage, but with no new spells per day, this isn't too good a choice outside epic levels. Hierophant can do that trick where his cure spells all do max healing right? Hardly useless. If playing epic, grab a level of it at level 21 and then go Holy Proselytizer :D Loremaster strikes me as being weaker than most other Arcane PrC's.
Lormador 10-05-07, 10:28 PM	My vote is for the Maester. I can hardly look at that page in the book without getting sick. At least some of the other classes I might have moments of brief desire to play. For a little while there I even considered Gnome Giant Slayer, then I realized I'd be better off with a gnomish paladin just taking Goad and Upward Thrust. That's the most annoying thing, really- when a Prestige Class is entirely invalidated and outperformed by a few feats elsewhere.
Jaxgaret 10-06-07, 03:34 AM	Loremaster strikes me as being weaker than most other Arcane PrC's. The Loremaster is not weak by any means. It is simply a victim of power creep. In Core, the most powerful spellcasting build is Wizard5/Loremaster10/Archmage5. The Loremaster may not be as powerful as the plethora of PrCs that came after it - which were thusly made progressively more powerful so that people would purchase the pieces of paper they were written on ($$$ for WotC) - but it is definitely not weak. Full spellcasting progression, 4 sp/level, a bonus feat at every other level, UMD as a class skill, some other minor goodies, plus an absolutely awesome capstone ability* adds up to a pretty darn good class. * If you don't realize the power of True Lore, let me explain it to you. Here is an excerpt from the spell Legend Lore: Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4×10 minutes. If you have only detailed information on the person, place, or thing, the casting time is 1d10 days, and the resulting lore is less complete and specific (though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). True Lore (Ex) At 10th level, once per day a loremaster can use her knowledge to gain the effect of a legend lore spell or an analyze dweomer spell. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted. Emphasis mine. Even if you've heard only vague rumors of something, you can True Lore for it one day, find out more about it, True Lore for it the next day for a better result, True Lore for it next day for a better result, etc. Within a week you'll probably have specific information about the whereabouts, activities, goals, etc. of the subject. Remember, this is about something that was just a rumor to you. Without True Lore, this process takes months/years in which you can do nothing else. With True Lore, it takes but a standard action a day, and with no material cost to boot.
Lichkiller 10-06-07, 02:29 PM	Dude, Alienist. I can't believe no one's mentioned it. One of its class features actually nerfs you on purpose, and for all the cool Lovecraftian flavor, it fails to be cool or useful.
Zackan 10-07-07, 03:58 PM	Hmm, I am suprised Noone has mentioned Apostle of Peace. Does this mean that prestige class is actually useful like I keep telling people. Let's make a new category. Most Despised: Apostle of Peace. After all, What is D&D without combat......... (Sorry I guess I am just venting. I keep trying to run it, and people are always going ..hmm, how can I kill him off) So I guess just cuz he isn't liked, doesn't mean he is useless?
Jaxgaret 10-07-07, 06:39 PM	So I guess just cuz he isn't liked, doesn't mean he is useless? Bingo. An AoP can gain 9th level spellcasting faster than any other character build in the game, by 16th level - there's no possible way that can be considered underpowered. They also get full Turning progression (nice for Clerics who go into AoP), all good saves, the ability to wear protective items even with their VoP, and good skills.
The_Shaman 10-07-07, 08:16 PM	Dude, Alienist. I can't believe no one's mentioned it. One of its class features actually nerfs you on purpose, and for all the cool Lovecraftian flavor, it fails to be cool or useful. Considering that it's a summoner PrC, I don't see what the big "nerf" is. The main weakness is that ot hits your social skills: if you weren't planning to be the party face, it's not a big deal? OTOH, full spellcasting and two bonus metamagic feats is not too bad. I wonder how bad the inability to summon non-pseudonatural creatures is. The template itself isn't bad - imo it's better than celestial or fiendish - but not being able to summon any of the noncelestial/nonfiendish creatures in the SM lists can be a pain. All in all it's imo a decent, if specialized, PrC as far as mechanics go. I don't really understand your negativity towards it.
Zackan 10-07-07, 09:49 PM	Bingo. An AoP can gain 9th level spellcasting faster than any other character build in the game, by 16th level - there's no possible way that can be considered underpowered. They also get full Turning progression (nice for Clerics who go into AoP), all good saves, the ability to wear protective items even with their VoP, and good skills. Heh, Apostle of Peace is kinda my pet project right now, I am having a hard time though, anything short of a solo campaign(which they can actually pull off with the right skills and feats) But anyway thanks for the heads up you re-lit my fire. p.s. anyone know how i can play online^^ (Send a private message)
Jaxgaret 10-07-07, 10:08 PM	All in all it's imo a decent, if specialized, PrC as far as mechanics go. I don't really understand your negativity towards it. Agreed. Let's take a look at their bonuses: Metamagic Secret = bonus feats. Positive. Summon Alien: Pseudonatural creatures gain SR 5 higher than Celestial/Fiendish creatures, gain 5 more Energy Resistance if they have more than 12 HD, gain True Strike 1/day, which is better than the Smite that Celestial/Fiendish creatures get (+20 attack is better than +HD damage), and they cause enemies attacking them to take a -1 to their attacks. So this is a decent positive. Alien Blessing - overall a positive, I would say. Mad Certainty/Insane Certainty. Free hit points. You're not the face anyway. Positive. Pseudonatural Familiar: Adds free bonuses to your Familiar. Nice positive. Extra Summoning: Free bonus highest level spell slot. Pretty sweet positive. Timeless Body: No penalties from aging, only bonuses? Positive. Alien Transcendence: A pretty decent capstone. Positive. So, overall, it's actually a pretty good class, you're getting something new and beneficial at every level. I kinda like it - I never really looked at it before, might start thinking about playing one :)
powercreep 10-08-07, 08:32 AM	Ive always thought the arcane archer was a bit weak there is a spell or feat that duplicates almost everyone of there abilities. SUrein a low magic item game they can be okay but thtas about it. I also agree Dragon disciple is bad too.
DracoPhoenix 10-08-07, 08:43 AM	meta-mind : A straight psion has more pp, ML, powers / day than a meta-mind going nova for the full minute a day at L20 and using all it's free powers. The whole point of the class : effectively more pp...
Khatoblepas 10-08-07, 01:16 PM	Summon Alien: Pseudonatural creatures gain SR 5 higher than Celestial/Fiendish creatures, gain 5 more Energy Resistance if they have more than 12 HD, gain True Strike 1/day, which is better than the Smite that Celestial/Fiendish creatures get (+20 attack is better than +HD damage), and they cause enemies attacking them to take a -1 to their attacks. So this is a decent positive. But then you can't summon anything OTHER than pseudonatural creatures. No named demons, devils, or celestials like the Imp or the Lantern Archon. Negative.
The_Shaman 10-08-07, 01:28 PM	Yep. Still, the normal SM tables don't have too many useful fiends/celestials anyway. It is a problem, just not an incredible one. Besides, when it comes to those, planar ally/binding are much better anyway as these allow for stronger allies - and for much longer time. Planar ally can get a lvl 11 character things with higher CR than that (astral deva, for example). Sure, it costs a bit, but it's worth it. BTW, the way I'm reading it, the true strike ability of pseudonatural creatures does not require an action to cast/prepare, unlike the spell. I'd say that can be pretty wicked - especially for your familiar. Shivering touch, anyone?
Jaxgaret 10-08-07, 07:18 PM	But then you can't summon anything OTHER than pseudonatural creatures. No named demons, devils, or celestials like the Imp or the Lantern Archon. Negative. It's true that you lose access to anything that isn't originally Fiendish or Celestial on the SM list; but you gain access to both Fiendish/Celestial summons as converted-to-Pseudonatural summons. This actually increases the number of different choices you have at each level of SM, except with SM IX. Of course, the loss of named summons decreases true versatility, especially due to lost access to certain summons' SLAs. But you can look through the books and find plenty of celestial, fiendish, and pseudonatural creatures to [convert and] summon. Yep. Still, the normal SM tables don't have too many useful fiends/celestials anyway. It is a problem, just not an incredible one. Besides, when it comes to those, planar ally/binding are much better anyway as these allow for stronger allies - and for much longer time. Planar ally can get a lvl 11 character things with higher CR than that (astral deva, for example). Sure, it costs a bit, but it's worth it. Right. Summon Alien only affects the Summon Monster spell - you can still use any other summoning method you have to summon non-pseudonatural creatures. BTW, the way I'm reading it, the true strike ability of pseudonatural creatures does not require an action to cast/prepare, unlike the spell. I'd say that can be pretty wicked - especially for your familiar. Shivering touch, anyone? Yep. It works just like Smite. No action to activate.
snakeman830 10-08-07, 09:01 PM	I can't believe nobody's said this: Cryokineticist. Everybody is bashing it's firey counterpart, but this PrC is so inferior it isn't even funny. Harder entery requirements and inferior abilities. Why bother? I also hate the Alienist. Wisdom penalties for crappy abilities? I don't think so. Most of the PrC's in the DMG are not that great (Thurmatagist, Red Wizard in your typical party, Arcane Archer almost anywhere) and some of the XPH ones just suck (Metamind, Psion Uncarnate) and a few base classes that are just pathetic (Soulknife). Maester is an excellent 1 level dip for an artificier, though. That will let the artificier do what he's best at twice as fast,
Borgtron 10-23-07, 11:01 PM	i say most of the classes in the complete adventure are very flimsy and not thought out very well..
DracoPhoenix 10-24-07, 03:51 AM	... some of the XPH ones just suck (Metamind, Psion Uncarnate) and a few base classes that are just pathetic ... Metamind yes, if only because it is one of the most ironic classes going. Uncarnate, not so much. effectively a +4LA, (which an Unbodied has), but you gain the ability to change pretty much all your items to incorporeal when you do (and there's ~ 10 body slots + Handy Haversack. So you have to pick one body slot you can't use.)) Sadly, my DM has banned me from taking this PrC as he finds incorporeal in the hands of a PC massively unbalancing. :(
The_Shaman 10-24-07, 06:45 AM	i say most of the classes in the complete adventure are very flimsy and not thought out very well.. Really? I think it's one of the better books of the Complete Series, in terms of PrCs. Sure, there are some failures (imo) like the Exemplar or the Maester, but there are some very solid ones - like Animal Lord (solid choice for rangers without the spellcasting), Nightsong Enforcer, the Shadowbane classes... Heck, it even had a psionic PrC, those are almost as rare as prestiges for the ToM classes.
ArkhamInmate 11-08-07, 07:27 PM	i say most of the classes in the complete adventure are very flimsy and not thought out very well.. Even if that was true, the base classes kinda make up for it
The_Shaman 11-09-07, 07:59 PM	Weird, I'd think the opposite. The scout is a good class although the skirmish mechanic makes little sense imo, the ninja is okay, but has anyone ever used the spellthief before CScoundrel?
Sol_Odlanier 11-09-07, 11:47 PM	Ahem...Thrall Of Orcus
The_Shaman 11-10-07, 12:00 PM	Ahem...Thrall Of Orcus Worst as in "weakest" or worst as in "I don't like it and won't have it in my games?" It's so far from the former that it's not even funny. It is a warrior PrC with full BAB, 2 good saves, a bucketful of bonus feats, and some damn good abilities. Mechanically, it's quite solid - you just need to have some spellcasting, like from a level or two of blackguard, or even some spell-likes. Heck, how many classes do you know with a death ability that is usable, afaik, at will? Of course, there is the small matter about, er, the Lichloved feat. Mind you, as far as I'm concerned, when you pledge yourself to a demon for all eternity you've gone far beyond worrying whether your significant other has a pulse or not.
aikimiller 11-10-07, 12:16 PM	Of course, there is the small matter about, er, the Lichloved feat. Mind you, as far as I'm concerned, when you pledge yourself to a demon for all eternity you've gone far beyond worrying whether your significant other has a pulse or not. LOL, that's spectacular
navar100 11-10-07, 01:15 PM	I suggested the Eunuch Warlock in another one of these threads (maybe this one, I don't know) for the same reason geekmasterflash did. You lose your balls. In 3.5 you get slightly more power for losing your balls, but you still lose your balls. The first and only time a prestige class is males only, as opposed to the numerous female only empowerment ones, and it's this.
Zsasz_Diedne 11-11-07, 01:20 AM	The Exotic Weaponmaster This is a dip class if ever there was one, and in my eyes an acknowledgement of that playstyle. My only problem with this class is I am supposed to consider it the updated version of both the Weapon Master and the Master of Chains, eh? I think not. The Mystic Theurge Cool concept, since improved with other PrC's, underpowered alone, quite busted when patched with Ur-Priest, but I tend to play in power-heavy campaigns, and have seen a lot worse. Ghost Face Killer When you take into account this was lifted from an issue of Dragon themed around martial arts and Wu Xia movies, it becomes less silly, the context was definitely out of place, but I like the class a great deal. The Hulking Hulker Anytime someone cries foul about a warrior class doing insane damage I point at a mage, 'nuff said. That aside,love mixing this class with Master Thrower. The Apostle of Peace The book says for mature readers only for a reason, I love a good hack and slash as much as the next guy, but any reasonably mature group of players should have no problems with one of these in the party. @Complete Adventurer being "flimsy" <looks at the Daggerspell Mage, Fochlucan Lyrist, Ghost-Faced Killer, Nightsong and Shadowbane PrCs, and the feats> I disagree :) The Gray Guard You don't get to ignore the Code of Conduct, there just isn't an XP cost for the atonement spell when you break the code in pursuit of your ideals, and suffer as any pally would when you break it for any other reason, placing you even more firmly under the thumb of DM Fiat IMO. @Complete Scoundrel being worthless Going to have to disagree again, I like the Tricksters and the Malconvoker quite a bit, and the Skill Trick mechanics are both flavorful and useful, and some pretty cool feats as well. Master of the Unseen Hand If you're looking at this class and judging it by it's (lack of) spell progression, you don't get it, at all. My Picks -The Maester: Already mentioned, just adding my vote, not sure what they were thinking here, the Gnome Tinker is dead, long live the Artificer. -Master of Masks: I love the concept of these two classes, not that isn't a typo because it seems someone took the flavor text and prereqs of one class and slapped it onto the mechanics of another. You start off thinking "Master of Disguise" only to get "dude with a mask fetish". Even this would not be so bad if the mask mechanics themselves weren't total Weaksauce with Gimp Zest. A head-scratcher of a PrC if ever I saw one. I suppose it's best taken as a bard, but there are so many better choices out there, why the hell would you? -Illithid Savant: Buh-Roken!
The_Shaman 11-11-07, 07:21 AM	BTW, am I the only one who thinks the MoM PrC is designed to emulate the ToM binder?
GhostSound 11-19-07, 07:47 PM	Frenzied Berserker. Depending on whether or not the party has devised a way to handle the "kill all your allies" problem, the class is either ludicrously overpowered or completely unplayable. There is no middle ground, in which the power of the class is properly balanced by its drawback. Fin stole the words right out from under me.
Jaxgaret 11-19-07, 10:42 PM	Depending on whether or not the party has devised a way to handle the "kill all your allies" problem, the class is either ludicrously overpowered or completely unplayable. There is no middle ground, in which the power of the class is properly balanced by its drawback. Party of all FBs with some Frenzy-stopping method should do the trick. :) That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun, actually.
The_Shaman 11-20-07, 07:38 AM	Party of all FBs with some Frenzy-stopping method should do the trick. :) That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun, actually. Party of FBs with an ethereal cleric/healer, ideally. They all rage together, they mess up, they die together, and then the cleric/healer raises them :D
Jaxgaret 11-20-07, 06:36 PM	Party of FBs with an ethereal cleric/healer, ideally. They all rage together, they mess up, they die together, and then the cleric/healer raises them :D Do you mean by "mess up" that they can't stop their Frenzy? There are several ways to auto-stop a Frenzy. Righteous Wrath is one of them.
LordQwert 11-21-07, 04:58 PM	Short races are fun. Fun fact about halflings: 15 hide check, EASY, at lvl 1. 4 ranks +4 small +2 racial +3 Dex (dex 16) +2 Stealthy (feat) Does this seem powerful? eh, not really. "look ma, I can hide from the dog like none other!" Where does it come in handy? Leadership. Use leadership to become an underground crime lord, and all your lvl 1 followers are little halfling rogues with massive hide checks who run around stealing stuff. Just being nitpicky here, but halflings don't get a racial bonus to hide checks. Just move silently.
wjliii3 11-21-07, 10:10 PM	Do you mean by "mess up" that they can't stop their Frenzy? There are several ways to auto-stop a Frenzy. Righteous Wrath is one of them. Actually...technically speaking, Righteous Wrath states rather clearly that it removes the negative effects incurred while raging. I generally rule that that does not include the ability Frenzy, only the ability Rage.
Jaxgaret 11-23-07, 03:01 AM	Actually...technically speaking, Righteous Wrath states rather clearly that it removes the negative effects incurred while raging. I generally rule that that does not include the ability Frenzy, only the ability Rage. Ah, this old argument! :) Righteous Wrath states that "While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage." Now, since Rage doesn't actually cause you to attack without mercy or attack your friends, the "stop your attacks to show mercy" and "distinguish friend from foe" parts can't be referring to raging. Thus, they are referring to something else - such as Frenzy. By RAW Righteous Wrath definitely works with Frenzy as long as you are Raging at the same time; IMO it works by RAI as well, as I explained above. But feel free to rule otherwise.
danelsan 12-13-07, 09:08 AM	I'm on the side of those who don't think Eldritic knight ot Mystic Theurge sucks. Sure, if you can use non-core, they become filler levels, but they are there to allow the use of certain character concepts with flavour on their own, so the PrC don't need it. Of course, for the MT, if you are going into epic, you need all the dual-spellcating classes you can get: instead of going past level 10 in MT, just use other classes with dual casting progression. As for the Argent Savant, Spell Compendium and Dargon Magic make it much better.
Magius_Rerecros 12-15-07, 08:47 PM	Pretty sure that (imho) True Necromancer is the worst PrC ever. It kills EVERYTHING useful about necromancers in the first place. It's like a cancerous 20 year old dog's corpse with fleas. Without the ability to animate it.
Kelmourne 12-15-07, 09:50 PM	In regards to true necromancer comment Fact: a 5th cleric, 5th wizard, and 10th true necromancer can cast 8th level cleric and 8th level wizard spells. Now what would you prefer. to be able to cast one type as a level 20 caster or cast 2 types as level 15 casters. I'd pick the second one. True necromancer is really just a flavoured and IMO powered up mystic theurge. If you agree, ***** about mystic theurges instead. Exotic Weapon Masters still trump. Bard PCs such as dirgesinger are also pretty lame.
The_Shaman 12-16-07, 07:11 AM	In regards to true necromancer comment Fact: a 5th cleric, 5th wizard, and 10th true necromancer can cast 8th level cleric and 8th level wizard spells. Beeep! Fact: the first 10 levels of TN give 8 arcane and 8 divine caster levels (divine levels are not given on 1 and 6, arcane on 2 and 7). Conclusion: A Cleric 5/Wizard 5/TN 10 will cast like a lvl 13 cleric and lvl 13 wizard, meaning that s/he will just barely get lvl 7 spells. Opinion: while the True Necro may be a flavored variant of the mystic theurge, it is not a more powerful one.
Jaxgaret 12-16-07, 05:35 PM	Fact: a 5th cleric, 5th wizard, and 10th true necromancer can cast 8th level cleric and 8th level wizard spells. Wrong. Now what would you prefer. to be able to cast one type as a level 20 caster or cast 2 types as level 15 casters. I'd pick the second one. Wrong. True necromancer is really just a flavoured and IMO powered up mystic theurge. Wrong. Exotic Weapon Masters still trump. Wrong. Bard PCs such as dirgesinger are also pretty lame. Wrong wrong wrong.
Kelmourne 12-18-07, 07:28 PM	My mistake, he could cast as a 13th wizard and 13 cleric. Still a pretty sweet deal IMO and IMO, bard PrCs are lame because IMO, bards are lame. And are you saying that you would prefer to cast as a 20th level wizard than cast as a 13th level wizard AND a 13th level cleric? And for the future, please respond with your own facts and opinions. Not the same word repeated 7 times.
Richmud 12-18-07, 08:00 PM	And are you saying that you would prefer to cast as a 20th level wizard than cast as a 13th level wizard AND a 13th level cleric? Yes, a 20th level wizard has more potent spells and an ability to use them better. For instance the 13/13 will have far more trouble dealing the SR of CR 20 creatures then the 20 will. 8th and 9th level wizard spells are generally far more potent then 1-7 cleric spells. You are still restricted to the same number of spells per round so being able to use the better spells rather then simply having a few more options is better in most combat situations.
The_Shaman 12-18-07, 08:25 PM	My mistake, he could cast as a 13th wizard and 13 cleric. Still a pretty sweet deal IMO and IMO, bard PrCs are lame because IMO, bards are lame. That is, indeed, your personal opinion. I would disagree - between skill points, spellcasting (less than wizards and CoDzillas, but still full caster level and with spells other classes get higher) and even a bit of combat skills bards are far from useless, even though dragon shamans, warlocks/DFAs, beguilers and others have been encroaching on their turf. Of course, it helps when you know what you want to get at... but that's another story. In the case of the dirgesinger, we have a few situational, but quite powerful features. Anything that pits a bard's perform check (which is likely to be ungodly) vs practically anything - save, HD, you name it - means the bard wins in 90+% of the situations of a comparable CR. The ability to use bardic music to buff/weaken undead - which is given in the requiem feat that the PrC requires - can be quite handy in any undead-heavy campaigns. And are you saying that you would prefer to cast as a 20th level wizard than cast as a 13th level wizard AND a 13th level cleric? Why wouldn't you? First, you have 2 more spell levels - the sweetest spell levels, in terms of power - and much better caster level throughout the game. The power of spells tends to scale exponentially - so a lvl 9 spell is much, much better than a lvl 7. Certainly, a wiz 13 cl 13 can cast more spells eventuall, but they will be weaker - and as s/he can only cast so many spells per round, it simply means that they can cast weaker spells a few more rounds per day. When you also consider how monsters of that CR will have higher SR and/or saves, the difference becomes even bigger. At best, you're a backup spellcaster with another set of spells than the real mage or divinist gets - or you are outgunned whenever the DM throws another spellcaster at you. And for the future, please respond with your own facts and opinions. Not the same word repeated 7 times. Well, to be perfectly honest you only gave opinions yourself... Just as he did :P
Jaxgaret 12-19-07, 12:19 AM	My mistake, he could cast as a 13th wizard and 13 cleric. Correct. Still a pretty sweet deal IMO In actual play, high level MTs are alright. Definitely viable characters. But low level MTs are pathetic, and high level MTs are still less useful than straight classed spellcasters. Just try playing one; you'll really miss those higher level spells. and IMO, bard PrCs are lame because IMO, bards are lame. Why exactly do you think Bards are lame? I'm guessing that either a) you think they're underpowered, and on that you couldn't be more wrong. I would personally put them at just about the same power level of the Sorcerer, perhaps a bit lower, if not a bit higher. Definitely top 10. Or b) you think playing songs at the enemy is lame. Well here's news for you - not only is it not lame, you don't even have to use Bardic Music to play music, or recite poetry, or even anything performance related if you are performance-phobic. There's plenty of options to use Bardic Music uses for other effects, just like there are options to use Turn attempts for other things. And are you saying that you would prefer to cast as a 20th level wizard than cast as a 13th level wizard AND a 13th level cleric? http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5999/funnypicturesracoonyessr4.jpg That's not even close. I would take a 17th level Wizard over a 13/13 caster, easy. Not only does the 13/13 caster have to deal with more MAD as well as lower spell levels, they don't even get the class features that the single classed character would be getting via PrCs! It's just not as good a deal as you think it is. And for the future, please respond with your own facts and opinions. Not the same word repeated 7 times. Didn't really have a lot of time, and I thought that it sufficed for the moment. Hope you appreciated this post more.
Kelmourne 12-19-07, 11:05 AM	Didn't really have a lot of time, and I thought that it sufficed for the moment. Hope you appreciated this post more. Yes this post is better. Love the picture. I still would rather cast as 2 13th level classes than 1 20th level classes, especially with the added bonuses. Changing the subject away from True Necromancer, am I horribly wrong to suggest Dragon Diciple? From what I see it's MOSTLY a combat PrC but you need casting to get it. Maybe if u multiclassed bard or sorceror with fighter it could be good but if u go with just bard or sorceror it wouldn't be that good. Correct me if im wrong.
The_Shaman 12-19-07, 02:57 PM	Oh, for a sorcerer to go at it takes less powers of observation than a legendary Mon Calamari of Star Wars fame... and bards aren't much better. I can see it only for warriors with a short dip in casting classes or some spellcasting of their own (i.e. hexblades or duskblades). Even then it's not great, but becomes passable.
Jaxgaret 12-19-07, 07:50 PM	Before Hex- and Duskblades existed, Bard4/Melee1 was the best entrance into Dragon Disciple, period. It's still one of the better ones. Dragon Disciple itself is less than useful, but it's not in the running for the worst prestige class ever. It's bottom third though, definitely.
madbliza 12-20-07, 11:56 AM	Purple Dragon Knight (CW) is a pointless class IMO.
Empirate 12-21-07, 09:07 AM	PDK is actually a quite decent class. Note that you need more than, say, two or three allies to pull it off in any meaningful way, as most of your abilities are geared toward standing in the frontline of great battles, not fighting it out Small-Unit-Tactics-like. But all in all, taking a Paladin as your base to build from, you exchange some divine spells for the ability to buff many many allies at once and cast Fear (a bit weird...). The entry requirements are easy, though, and you can break off taking levels wherever you like, basically. All in all, a good (potentially very good, if paired with other stuff) PrC for battle commanders, or even for nanite cheese. My vote for worst PrC goes to: Survivor. No BAB, no spellcasting, (almost) no skills, no class features except defensive stuff others get through rather standard class levels (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion...)? Strange class. Can't see the prestige in this one. Even if they had +1 to all saves and Toughness as a bonus feat at every level, it wouldn't be worth it, but it would fit the concept better. Other "good" bad PrCs are: Magical Trickster (lose CL for dubious skill tricks), Combat Trapsmith (huh?), Shadowdancer (one fantastic ability at first level; after that why go on? Also, hefty, illogical feat reqs), Wayfarer Guide (just plain sucks), Acolyte of the Skin (why the low BAB? Or alternatively, why so little casting?), Spellfire Wielder (takes a sucky mechanic to augment and strips you of everything else you might be able to do well), Hellfire Warlock (sucks to lose Con; if you have a way to mitigate that, broken like hell, literally), Nentyar Hunter (if you don't remember where this is from, it's probably for the better), Radiant Servant of Pelor (just because there is absolutely no reason not to take it: It's just better. Which I'm inclined to hate in a PrC), Abjurant Champion (for much the same reason), ... As you might have gathered, I could go on all day. Much harder to find a well designed, flavorful, all-round good PrC than a sucky one!
drunkman 12-21-07, 11:59 AM	The exotic weapon master is not pointless. As a player character, in most situations, I wouldn't want to be an wxotic weapon master but I can see the goodness of it (for a lvl 3 prestige class). The exotic weapon stunts: flurry of strikes, stunning blow, twin exotic weapon fighting, and uncanny blow are pretty good if you ask me, but more than one or two levels of this class seems pointless though most of the time. I'd say the most pointless pointless prestige I ever saw was a five-level one called the tempest (complete adventurer). I simply see no point in taking this class. Basically, it takes three of your feat slots to get (excluding the two weapon fighting feats). The first ability is tempest defense; gives a +1 defense bonus every odd numbered level of this class IE a +3 AC bonus when you've completed the prestige class. Defense is good, but a +3 bonus is marginal. Then there's ambidexterity, which slowly shrugs off completely the -2 penalty, also good but marginal. But then it gets even more pointless; at the third level you get this ability called Two weapon versitality, which applies feats like weapon focus from one weapon to another different weapon you are using, most two weapon fighters use twin light weapons anyway, so it doesn't really do anything, and all I'm missing out on from using a bigger weapon is like +1 on average damage rolls. Then there's two weapon spring attack, which allows you to spring attack with each of your two weapons, but this is made obsolete by both the dual strike feat on the same book, which allows you basically to single attack with both weapons on all standard acttacks, period, and two weapon pounce. The five levels of street fighter on that same book is also very pointless. You basically get a +3 initiative bonus on initiative (can do without always going first), streetwise (a marginal +2 bonus on some skills), stand tough (an ability that allows you to both half and make nonlethal all weapon-involved attacks with a fortitude save, usable 2/day. Great, but there's better abilities), +1d6 sneak attack (wow, not), and uncanny dodge (see stand tough). These are WAY more pointless than the exotic weapon master. There are some other complete adventurer prestige classes like spymaster and dongeon delver that are pointlessas for player characters but make interesting NPC enemies or allies so are not completely pointless.
The_Shaman 12-21-07, 06:47 PM	What did you mean about the Nentyar Hunter? Don't tell me you consider it too weak :rolleyes:
drunkman 12-22-07, 01:24 AM	Yeah, the survivor was a great concept, but I didn't know what they were thinking; NO BASE ATTACK BONUS PROGRESSION AND 1D6 HIT DIE??? Doesn't sound like a survivor to me. Now that makes it one of the bottom 10 right there. In order to make this prestige class a better one, I would have thrown some d12's on the hit dice and give it a decent BAB progression. Now that's a pretty hardy prestige class.
LordQwert 12-22-07, 07:53 PM	My mistake, he could cast as a 13th wizard and 13 cleric. Still a pretty sweet deal IMO and IMO, bard PrCs are lame because IMO, bards are lame. And are you saying that you would prefer to cast as a 20th level wizard than cast as a 13th level wizard AND a 13th level cleric? And for the future, please respond with your own facts and opinions. Not the same word repeated 7 times. Not to dredge this up more, but you only need 3 levels of wizard and cleric to qualify for True Necromancer. It's a 14 level prestige class... so you end up being a 15/15 not 13/13... So... yeah.
ThroteCutter 12-22-07, 10:38 PM	I really like the Arcane Archer as a 2 level dip. I am currently playing a wizard 6/Fighter 1/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight 10/ Archmage 1. (The archmage is so I can stop blasting my allies with area spells) It actually really worked well. Nothing hurts like forcing your enemies into an antimagic field if you hit there AC. Also, it lets you fire area spells off into the distance, which can be useful in some situations. There are enough buffs that really help archers, spells like magic weapon, brilliant blade, fire arrow, and phantom steed (because Eldritch Knight has the ride skill). And about the Greenstar adept, don't they get a crazy effective caster level 15 effective caster levels in a 10 level prestige class
Brujj 01-03-08, 11:59 PM	With house rules, my DM let me roll a warlock, and i got it to level 5, and he let me have the Supernatural transformation (on the grounds that i could take no other feat that affected my eldritch blasts, i.e. quicken, heighten, etc-spelllike abilities). After 5th level, I popped 1 level into Sorcerer, and then went into Dragon Disciple. At level 15 now, (5 Warlock, 1 Sorc, and 9 DD), My char is very well rounded, but went from a ranged fighter, to a melee type with claw attacks that i channel eldritch blast through. I don't do a LOT of damage, but, with a high Str score, i can do enough to make it a lil bit of a challenge, and keep it fun. SO i don't think DD is a bad PrC. I do however think that most PrC's aren't that good compared to just leveling a class to 15 or 20, or multiclassing. Just my opinion. Brujj
natzero 01-04-08, 12:08 PM	Changing the subject away from True Necromancer, am I horribly wrong to suggest Dragon Diciple? From what I see it's MOSTLY a combat PrC but you need casting to get it. Maybe if u multiclassed bard or sorceror with fighter it could be good but if u go with just bard or sorceror it wouldn't be that good. Correct me if im wrong. BATTLE SORC FTW!!! LOL 5 lvls of battle sorc then 10 lvls of dragon disp... followed by w/e u want u get 7 bonus spells added to sorc list, which allows u to cast a decent amount of spells (hint go 10th lvl bs first, so u can get bonus lvl 5 spells. u lose 1 spell per day per level as a battle sorc, however u get 7 of them back ;) you have 10 lvls of d8 + hp and 10 lvls of d12 + hp 14/9/4 BAB. not great but eh ur a 10th lvl caster. (lvl 5 spells) +8 str(if they stack), +2 cha, +2 int, +2 con, +4 nat armor (plus ur +5 mithril breastplate :p ) wings, blindsense 60 ft, breathe weapon, immune sleep and par, darkvision, and finally immunity to energy of ur dragon type base saves are: fort +10, ref +6, will + 14 so its not overpowered but ur still a flyin halfdragon with a great sword :)
JaronK 01-04-08, 12:32 PM	Generally, it's Hexblade/Dragon Disciple that's workable. I vote Shining Blade of Heironeous. It's a long PrC that ends with... a level 3 or so Artificer ability. And that's pretty much it. JaronK
The_Shaman 01-04-08, 08:23 PM	I wouldn't call it exactly the worst as much as annoyingly bland. 10 levels that give you nothing but 1/2 spellcasting and the ability to put a temporary enhancement or two on your weapon? Wow. It must've taken a whole 2 minutes to design.
pale_enchantress 01-05-08, 12:16 PM	3.0 hathran sucked, 3.5 hathran however redeemed itself fully
The_Shaman 01-05-08, 06:10 PM	True, removing the necessity for dual casting helped it become quite decent... I wish they'd also give the UEast Durthan a similar do-over.
Necromas 01-05-08, 06:22 PM	I wouldn't say dragon disciple is the worst, you're still getting a +3 LA template out of it, even if the requirements are annoying.
The_Shaman 01-06-08, 07:56 PM	That's kinda true, but consider what Walker in the Waste gives beside a +5? template (Dry Lich)
Druss_of_The_Sword 01-06-08, 09:20 PM	i vote for that dwarf teacher from CAdv and Mystic Theurge.
Bloodsoul 01-07-08, 06:14 PM	Mystic Theurge? What's wrong with having eventual access to every Wizard and Cleric spell in exhistance? Only problem I see is gaining those spells slower than normal, but the duel progression's no doubt why they only get Bonus Feats every six levels. I love EWM's Uncanny Blow; it's helped my Barbarian/Blackguard throughout so many battles. Personally, I've still yet to see the need for a Horizon Walker, either as a PC or as an NPC.
Jaxgaret 01-07-08, 06:39 PM	Personally, I've still yet to see the need for a Horizon Walker, either as a PC or as an NPC. Horizon Walker is underpowered as written, yes, but that is only because skills are very underpowered when compared to spells, and skill feats are quite underpowered as well. An HW gains +4 to a skill at every level from 1-5, plus a minor bonus ability. Compared to Skill Focus, this should be worth more than a feat. Gained at every level. That's strong, or should be. And that's even before an HW gets to the really good stuff at levels 6+.
Bloodsoul 01-07-08, 06:48 PM	Well, then that makes me a perfectly good example of judging a book by it's cover XD
Dragoon_Warrior 01-08-08, 01:29 PM	There are more then a few that don't suit my pallet but the most offensive was the Dragon Disciple, It sounded cool and at first glance seemed great but with no casting it suddenly hit me that it was such a gigantic a waste of time. Thats just one out of a few I have a problem with.
Gareshra 01-11-08, 11:10 PM	Alienist. You don't lose much...but you don't really gain much either, and even what you gain seems counteracted by the various weaknesses you get. On the other hand, it makes for an excellent class for roleplaying, but I'm assuming this thread is based purely on combat abilities, right?
The_Shaman 01-12-08, 05:40 PM	Well... even then, you're an almost full caster. There's some pretty damn good combat ability, right there :) . Mind you, wizards are kinda sub-par as summoners, but imo it can still work. It's not too strong, not too weak, got its own flavor... I personally think it's quite a decent PrC. Weird as hell, but that makes it unique. It's not like Incantatrix, which works for all purposes. Speaking of weird, has anyone tried the Acolyte of the Skin? I've never really liked it that much.
Broken vacuum 01-14-08, 03:03 AM	It's not too strong, not too weak, got its own flavor... I personally think it's quite a decent PrC. Weird as hell, but that makes it unique. I agree. In my opinion the Alienist is one of the best designed PrCs, mechanically speaking (I also like the flavour, though). While making the character different, it still keeps the character at approximately the same level of power it would have been if it instead had kept in the qualifying class. Regarding Horizon Walker, I do not think it as bad as some here seem to. A number of the abilities you get are not at all bad. Immunity to fatigue and darkvision should be rather obvious and if you happen to have a swim or climb speed the unnamed bonus to them are not bad. Same thing happens when it gets to planar masteries. Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds and tremorsense are rather nice abilities and for a character that is frequently plane-hopping, the ability to mimic the dominant alignment of a plane can be very useful. In short, for the right sort of character the Horizon Walker actually has quite a bit to offer. Also, I think this is rather common when it comes to opinions about PrCs. People do unfortunately not consider properly which sort of character can make best use of a PrC, but instead give it a cursory glance and then try to fit it into something it is not. The Dragon Disciple is an excellent example of this. Since it requires spell-casting (even though it only requires 1 level in a casting class) and offers some extra spell-slots, people often expect it to be good for casters and then get dissappointed. Although the class is a victim of power-creep, it is by no means a bad PrC. As mentioned before, one of the best ways of entering it in core is Bard 4/Full BAB 1, but even with a dead obvious and very plain Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1 it is a quite viable character that compares favourably to a straight fighter. It is by no means a PrC that is obvious for everyone to take, but then it would be over-powered if that were the case. As a minor note, it is often claimed that a Half-Dragon martial character is better than a martial character with the DD PrC. This is actually pretty far from the truth. Plenty of characters suffer a lot from those lost 3 levels. For a tank the loss of 19.5 + 3*(con bonus) HP is rather bad - especially considering the generally high con bonus of a DD. It is more of the same when it comes to saves. As a final note, I would like to volunteer the Mindbender as a badly designed PrC. Taken as a whole it is not bad for some, e.g. warlocks, but the first level is just way too good for full casters. It boggles my mind that they actually designed the class so that that you get a caster level and telepathy at will at first level and at second level you get no caster level increase and Suggestion 1/ day.
JaronK 01-14-08, 03:50 AM	I wouldn't call it exactly the worst as much as annoyingly bland. 10 levels that give you nothing but 1/2 spellcasting and the ability to put a temporary enhancement or two on your weapon? Wow. It must've taken a whole 2 minutes to design. Can you think of any build that doesn't get significantly worse by adding in more Shining Blade, though? I mean, Paladin 10/Shining Blade 10 is worse than Paladin 20. Cleric 10/Shining Blade 10 is far worse. I tried doing something involving Kensai, but you run out of levels and it's still crap. I can optomize almost anything (I even kinda got something working with the CW Samurai!) but the Shining Blade has nothing... and I can't even get much in the way of a nice characterful flavor out of it either. JaronK
JaronK 01-14-08, 03:53 AM	Personally, I've still yet to see the need for a Horizon Walker, either as a PC or as an NPC. A one level dip with desert mastery protects you from being fatigued by Rage. When combined with the Orc Warlord PrC, it's incredibly powerful (permanent always on rage, baby!). So there's that. JaronK
Jaxgaret 01-14-08, 03:58 AM	A one level dip with desert mastery protects you from being fatigued by Rage. When combined with the Orc Warlord PrC, it's incredibly powerful (permanent always on rage, baby!). So there's that. JaronK There's also the core-only Rogue who absolutely has to max out Hide/MS, and takes two levels of HW to get +4 to both.
Jaxgaret 01-14-08, 04:29 AM	Can you think of any build that doesn't get significantly worse by adding in more Shining Blade, though? I mean, Paladin 10/Shining Blade 10 is worse than Paladin 20. Cleric 10/Shining Blade 10 is far worse. I tried doing something involving Kensai, but you run out of levels and it's still crap. I can optomize almost anything (I even kinda got something working with the CW Samurai!) but the Shining Blade has nothing... and I can't even get much in the way of a nice characterful flavor out of it either. JaronK It's not great, but here's something you could look at:get Pounce via 1-level dip in CC Lion Totem Barb, load up on any way to garner yourself more attacks with your weapon, and get your weapon enchanted with the various Con-damage enhancements (Greater Wounding, and I think there was another one). Switch on the Brilliant Blade, and hopefully you can cut any enemy down with a single charge. This works even better with TWF, but then it takes two rounds to turn on the Brilliant Blade (why isn't there a Quicken Supernatural Ability feat?). Would the Brilliant Blade ability make both ends of a Double weapon Brilliant Energy? I highly doubt it. I think the rules of Double Weapon enhancement preclude it.
The_Shaman 01-14-08, 04:32 PM	Can you think of any build that doesn't get significantly worse by adding in more Shining Blade, though? I mean, Paladin 10/Shining Blade 10 is worse than Paladin 20. Cleric 10/Shining Blade 10 is far worse. I tried doing something involving Kensai, but you run out of levels and it's still crap. I can optomize almost anything (I even kinda got something working with the CW Samurai!) but the Shining Blade has nothing... and I can't even get much in the way of a nice characterful flavor out of it either. JaronK Well, it's a weakish 1/2 progression class, and that's about it. 1/2 progression classes aren't great anyway, but at least this one doesn't detract too much from your fighting. Speaking of which, I've always thought the fleet runner of Ehlonna from Dragon Compendium (and elsewhere, for all I know) was weaker, though. I mean... running around is fun, but you're a cleric, for crying out loud. Also, the Enthropomancer... I just don't get. I mean, you get some extremely poor feats (magical aptitude? good grief), half your spellcasting levels, and for what? For a few 2/day abilities that your lost spells would have MORE than compensated for? The Shining Blade at least gets something better, even if it is a better BAB for clerics and a good will save for paladins. - I don't know how it works with the Devotions from CC as I don't have it... maybe it functions somehow now.
JaronK 01-15-08, 04:56 AM	It's not great, but here's something you could look at:get Pounce via 1-level dip in CC Lion Totem Barb, load up on any way to garner yourself more attacks with your weapon, and get your weapon enchanted with the various Con-damage enhancements (Greater Wounding, and I think there was another one). Switch on the Brilliant Blade, and hopefully you can cut any enemy down with a single charge. This works even better with TWF, but then it takes two rounds to turn on the Brilliant Blade (why isn't there a Quicken Supernatural Ability feat?). Would the Brilliant Blade ability make both ends of a Double weapon Brilliant Energy? I highly doubt it. I think the rules of Double Weapon enhancement preclude it. The problem there is the standard action charge up, and the fact that you must be lawful good (not chaotic, as a barbarian must be). Also, you could have spent 10 levels on Kensai for always on Brilliant Energy... and +5 or so in other enchantments. Or you could have spent five levels of Kensai and five levels advancing your caster class... or something else. Heck, PrC Paladin would have given you the ability to cast Holy Sword. I actually made a challenge on the CO Boards to try and optomize this class, and there's just nothing (lots of good tries, but it always comes out crappy). JaronK
JaronK 01-15-08, 04:58 AM	The Shining Blade at least gets something better, even if it is a better BAB for clerics and a good will save for paladins. The Cleric would do far better by instead taking 10 more levels of cleric and using one of the 4th level spell slots gained for Persistant Divine Favor. Full BAB, and you don't lose 5 caster levels. The Paladin, meanwhile, could have saved caster levels too and cast Holy Sword. I just got nuthin' for the Shining Blade. JaronK
Bergtann 01-15-08, 07:07 AM	Mystic Theurge? What's wrong with having eventual access to every Wizard and Cleric spell in exhistance? Only problem I see is gaining those spells slower than normal, but the duel progression's no doubt why they only get Bonus Feats every six levels. Try playing one. And they dont get any bonus feats. Yes, there is a spot at the end where they do function, but you got to fight through about 14 levels of uselessness to get there. When spells is all you have to contribute, being 1-2 levels behind on them is awful.
Slaunyeh 01-15-08, 07:14 AM	Master of the Unseen Hand is up there. First, it's a caster class that doesn't get any spellcasting. Second, their "ultimate" power allow them to do something that isn't normally disallowed by the telekinesis description anyway (except by the implication of the MotUH power). I still think I'd give top prize to the original version of the Halfling Outrider. No base attack? At all? :P
MongooseFamiliar 01-15-08, 11:06 AM	Regarding Horizon Walker, I do not think it as bad as some here seem to. A number of the abilities you get are not at all bad. Immunity to fatigue and darkvision should be rather obvious and if you happen to have a swim or climb speed the unnamed bonus to them are not bad. Same thing happens when it gets to planar masteries. Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds and tremorsense are rather nice abilities and for a character that is frequently plane-hopping, the ability to mimic the dominant alignment of a plane can be very useful. I just had to pipe in on this. Every time someone mentions the Aligned ability, they leave out an important point - the spell immunities. Besides being unharmed by planes that your alignment is at odd with, you gain total immunity to spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment. Not overpowered by any stretch, but still situationally useful.
Richmud 01-15-08, 01:28 PM	Master of the Unseen Hand is up there. First, it's a caster class that doesn't get any spellcasting. Second, their "ultimate" power allow them to do something that isn't normally disallowed by the telekinesis description anyway (except by the implication of the MotUH power). MotUH isn't actually meant for spellcasters (even if they can get in) its for people with telekinesis as a spell like ability, ghosts can make great use out of the class
Jaxgaret 01-16-08, 12:56 AM	I actually made a challenge on the CO Boards to try and optomize this class, and there's just nothing (lots of good tries, but it always comes out crappy). JaronK It's pretty craptacular, that's for sure. But there must be some way to break it :)
JaronK 01-16-08, 02:57 PM	It's pretty craptacular, that's for sure. But there must be some way to break it :) We're trying! But it's really freaking hard. We're not even trying to break it anymore, actually... it's now down to "use it in some way that's stronger than if you had just not used it." And it's really hard to get that in there too. I mean, it's a 10 level class, and at the end of 10 levels you get the ability to spend three standard actions to make your sword holy, shocking, and brilliant energy for a short time... but a Kensai 6 can just make his sword permanently those things. There's really not a lot to work with here. JaronK
Votan 01-16-08, 04:06 PM	We're trying! But it's really freaking hard. We're not even trying to break it anymore, actually... it's now down to "use it in some way that's stronger than if you had just not used it." And it's really hard to get that in there too. I mean, it's a 10 level class, and at the end of 10 levels you get the ability to spend three standard actions to make your sword holy, shocking, and brilliant energy for a short time... but a Kensai 6 can just make his sword permanently those things. There's really not a lot to work with here. JaronK Two good saves. Full BAB. 2 skills points per level. 1d10 hit points. Half Caster progression. The class features eat up standard actions, are sharply limited in uses per day and duplicate cheap weapon features. The entrance requirements are a high BAB (+7) and will save (+3) making it nearly impossible for a single classed character to enter before level 9. Forget breaking, how do you make this better than 10 levels of Fighter? Pious Templar (in the same book) is actually easier to enter, has better casting, the same skills, BAB and hit points plus it allows you to have actual class features (damage reduction, mettle, smite weapon specialization) and is easier to qualify for.
Jaxgaret 01-16-08, 06:35 PM	Took a longer look at it; man, does that class stink. I think if it had 9/10 casting progression, it would still be bad.
zanril 01-17-08, 02:55 AM	i think dual class prestidge classes rock they give those who hate playing the boring one class hack and slash fire ball backstab rutine in a game to my opinion one class is just dull see the monk then tatooed monk who is so broken like the paladin purple dragon knight i smite evil then smite eveil dragon then smite chaos since we are fighting a red dragon oh look i crit that is x5 damage oops i killed the dragon get the point i hope so they make playing more interesting
The_Shaman 01-17-08, 07:17 AM	i think dual class prestidge classes rock they give those who hate playing the boring one class hack and slash fire ball backstab rutine in a game to my opinion one class is just dull see the monk then tatooed monk who is so broken Right now, your post would make a lot more sense with a "j/k LOL" at its end. I mean you are kidding, right? About all that c..p like TM being broken (:D ) or PDKs making some kind of triple-smite ultra crits? Anyway, yeah, I admit the Shining Blade is quite poor, but even then... I don't know, full BAB, 2 good saves and 1/2 casting progression are worth something imo. Not a much, granted, but something.
Votan 01-17-08, 11:37 AM	Anyway, yeah, I admit the Shining Blade is quite poor, but even then... I don't know, full BAB, 2 good saves and 1/2 casting progression are worth something imo. Not a much, granted, but something. The problem with the Shining Blade is that it is weak relative to all other options. You can pretend it has no class features. Typical entries: 9th level Paladin 10th level Cleric The Cleric can page forward and notice the Warpriest class in the same book with powers like Haste, a bonus domain,mass heal . . . It has the same skills, BAB, hit die and nearly the same saves. They buff allies and they progress the turn undead class feature. They both require skills to enter but the warpriest skills are more generally useful. You can enter warpriest as a cleric 7! The Paladin see the Hospitalier. They can enter at level 5. It progress estheir lay on hands and has 7/10 spellcasting. It has 3 bonus feats. Free multi-classing with Paladin. Widely thought to be weak, it is a better deal than the Shining Blade. Now consider the Pious Templar . . . Easier requirements, two good saves, 1d10 hit points and will still end up casting better spells. Gets DR, Smites, Mettle, weapon specialization and two bonus feats. It can cast Holy Sword which will last longer than the Shining Blades Holy enhancement and be a better use of a standard action. But I go back to a Paladin 20 being more powerful (in nearly every way) than a Paladin 10/Shining Blade 10 . . . Both both the Paladin and the cleric will be stronger at level 20 for not taking Shining Blade. The Paladin, for example, will have slightly weaker will save for: more smites, casting Holy Sword spells, Turn Undead progression, lay on hands progression and a better mount.
The_Shaman 01-17-08, 12:23 PM	Well, yeah... although, tbh, a paladin 10/SBoH10 will be able to cast Holy Sword, but much later and less often. Anyway, I just think it's a sub-par PrC, but I doubt it's the worst ever.
Votan 01-17-08, 01:53 PM	Well, yeah... although, tbh, a paladin 10/SBoH10 will be able to cast Holy Sword, but much later and less often. Anyway, I just think it's a sub-par PrC, but I doubt it's the worst ever. Well, the worst ever is a fairly competitive category. It will change depending on campaign and play style. But SBoH is a nice competitor just because it seems to be always worse than the likely alternatives.
Norgerber 01-17-08, 03:07 PM	I can see one significant advantage to taking SBoH. So few people will that Heironious is sure to know, personally, who you are, and how dedicated you are to him to take such a crap PRC, even if he does judge you to be a couple of cards shy of a full deck. Direct Divine Intervention on your behalf, baby!
JaronK 01-17-08, 04:06 PM	I think the PrC was invented by Hextor just to mess with Heironeous. That said, I'm pretty sure it completely wins at the "most useless PrC" award... as I can't find any decent usage for it. JaronK
ninjarabbit 01-17-08, 04:15 PM	At least the Shining Blade doesn't make your character weaker by taking a level of it unlike the blighter. You need to take 3 levels of blighter just to get back to the power level you were before you started taking blighter levels.
JaronK 01-17-08, 05:21 PM	At least the Shining Blade doesn't make your character weaker by taking a level of it unlike the blighter. You need to take 3 levels of blighter just to get back to the power level you were before you started taking blighter levels. Yeah, but later on you get stronger with Blighter than you would have been without it... at least in theory. So it has a long term redeaming value somewhere along the line. JaronK
The_Shaman 01-18-08, 11:14 AM	Yeah, but later on you get stronger with Blighter than you would have been without it... at least in theory. So it has a long term redeaming value somewhere along the line. JaronK I doubt it. Ok, at some point you do cast spells earlier than a druid - lvl 15 unless you have a wisdom of 27 or less - but the selection is much poorer than that druids know, and you lose the ability to spontaneously cast summons. I'd say that by and large, blighter is about equal to druid for 1-2 levels, and no more. On the other hand, blighter abilities are way worse than those most Druid-acceptable PrCs give (perhaps excepting the use of sustenance in extreme conditions - but you need plant life for your spellcasting, so those mess you up anyway). Plus, you've got the equivalent of a "Druids, come get me!" bullseye on your back, and your method of spell replenishment can be a major pain. It's damn hard for a PrC that has full spellcasting - heck, accelerated full spellcasting - to suck, but the blighter makes a commendable effort.
JaronK 01-18-08, 05:17 PM	I doubt it. Ok, at some point you do cast spells earlier than a druid - lvl 15 unless you have a wisdom of 27 or less - but the selection is much poorer than that druids know, and you lose the ability to spontaneously cast summons. I'd say that by and large, blighter is about equal to druid for 1-2 levels, and no more. On the other hand, blighter abilities are way worse than those most Druid-acceptable PrCs give (perhaps excepting the use of sustenance in extreme conditions - but you need plant life for your spellcasting, so those mess you up anyway). Plus, you've got the equivalent of a "Druids, come get me!" bullseye on your back, and your method of spell replenishment can be a major pain. It's damn hard for a PrC that has full spellcasting - heck, accelerated full spellcasting - to suck, but the blighter makes a commendable effort. Ah, but you said it yourself... for 1-2 levels, you're equal to where you would have been! That's better than the SBoH can say. I'm not saying Blighters are great... just that there's some point to using them. JaronK
The_Shaman 01-18-08, 06:16 PM	As you remember, I said that they are about equal in spellcasting. That does not mean equal altogether, just as the SBoH is not better than a cleric in combat just because it has better BAB.
Jaxgaret 01-19-08, 05:01 AM	There is a workaround for the Blighter: a Druid1/SpiritShaman6 can qualify for it, and lose only the one level of Druid spellcasting.
Bergtann 01-19-08, 07:54 AM	There is a workaround for the Blighter: a Druid1/SpiritShaman6 can qualify for it, and lose only the one level of Druid spellcasting. Interesting flavor. All spirits of ruin and decay. I wonder if there is a PrC that would advance divine/divine casting for it?
ninjarabbit 01-19-08, 08:50 AM	There is a workaround for the Blighter: a Druid1/SpiritShaman6 can qualify for it, and lose only the one level of Druid spellcasting. Good effort but you're still not that much better off. Now you're waiting until level 7 to get into blighter so you're at level 17 by the time you finish taking the blighter level, you're not really better off than a druid in any aspect now. And you're not able to advance your spirit shaman casting or anything else but you do slightly improve from having 5 dead levels to having 1 dead level and 6 levels that get progressively less useful as you level up.
Jaxgaret 01-19-08, 03:51 PM	Interesting flavor. All spirits of ruin and decay. It could be an intriguing roleplay :) I wonder if there is a PrC that would advance divine/divine casting for it? Unfortunately, no. A simple solution would be to take the Ultimate Magus and convert it from an arcane/arcane PrC to a divine/divine PrC. You could leave it exactly as is, or bump up the HD to d8 and the BAB to 3/4 and give it a good Fort save. Good effort but you're still not that much better off. Almost nothing is better off than Druid20 though. Now you're waiting until level 7 to get into blighter so you're at level 17 by the time you finish taking the blighter level, you're not really better off than a druid in any aspect now. And you're not able to advance your spirit shaman casting or anything else but you do slightly improve from having 5 dead levels to having 1 dead level and 6 levels that get progressively less useful as you level up. True. Adding in either a divine/divine PrC or a PrC that has +1 BAB and divine spellcasting progression at its first level so as to qualify for Blighter at level 6 instead of 7 would be immensely helpful to the build, if possible. A Druid1/SpiritShaman6/Blighter2/UltimateDivinus10 could be pretty decent, particularly in the upper levels. It gets 9th//8th casting by level 18.
The_Shaman 01-19-08, 05:27 PM	I personally find the (Talontar) Blightlord PrC much better and fulfilling nearly the same role as a druid-like herald of disease and decay. If the blightlord looked anything like that, it would be a much better PrC imo.
Warweaver 01-19-08, 07:40 PM	Sidenote: I have been inspired by this thread to make my own Blighter version, after seeing how terrible it is. (Would've used Talontar Blightlord but the elemental (cold) stuff doesn't fit my campaign). The ex-druid will basically get an Atonement to re-dedicate to the blighter path, so those levels aren't dead. From what I can tell, even though Blighter's good for maybe 1-2 levels, the trick would be surviving till then. Not only because you've got dead levels and the anti-druid bullseye...your own party would resent such a dumb choice, even if they're evil. :P It looks like a tie between Blighter, Metamind, Maester, and Shining Blade for worst, unless I'm missing something. They seem to be the only ones everyone can agree at their suckitude. Magister maybe less so as someone said it was a good 1-level dip with Artificer. I think Bladesinger's pretty bad, but it gets more mention than other equally-bad PrCs because it broke so many hearts. Bladesingers are one of the most famous "PrCs before they had a name", and the CW version doesn't reflect their badassness. I agree that PrCs that don't work for the class you'd expect (like the Dragon Disciple & Sorc) but work for other builds shouldn't count as "bad". Just..."niche". Also, two personal peeves of mine I submit as food for thought: 1) I think the Mystic Theurge (while it has suffered from the power creep) is still a fun PrC. It serves two purposes in my mind. First, it appeals to people who want the dual-caster thing...for some, a little weakness is worth the fun of having so many and varied spells. Second, most people I know will admit casters are better than the martial classes in most cases. I have found players who do MT in a group of melee classes actually make the game better - they don't dominate the encounter as their spells are lower level, they do more buffing the party because they have so many, and the party can go longer w/o resting because of the same fact. 2) Know what I hate? PrCs with their own casting progression and spell lists that are designed for full casters. Either make it add caster levels (and maybe a few "unique spells known" if you must), or make it a class like Blackguard for melee-types with a "splash" of casting to get into and get their own wacky spell lists. None of this Blighter/Ur-Priest/Nar Demonbinder cr*p.
The_Shaman 01-19-08, 08:51 PM	I don't remember a Magister PrC, where is that from?
Jaxgaret 01-19-08, 10:52 PM	I don't remember a Magister PrC, where is that from? Think he meant the Maester. Actually, come to think of it, the SBoH isn't terrible as a 1- or 2-level dip for a Paladin. Since the Maester has a use, and the Blighter can be utilized (in a dual-casting progression PrC build), that leaves one class. The Metamind. The absolutely poorest designed class I've ever seen.
Warweaver 01-19-08, 11:32 PM	Yeah, Maester, sorry about the confusion. And I majored in English... :rolleyes: Probably right about Metamind at #1. My vote is for Blighter at #2 - the Maester and SBoH don't force you to deal with dead levels, and although they aren't as good as sticking to whatever class you were, I wouldn't say they were as bad as being terrible for 8/10 levels even when cracking your Blighter out. I also don't think either of those classes has as much difficulty surviving in an actual campaign.
Jaxgaret 01-20-08, 08:24 PM	The problem with the Metamind is that its core conceit - limited infinite power points! - requires it to be otherwise nerfed, or else it is overpowered. They just hit it with the nerfbat a bit too hard, for fear of making it too strong.
Lichtouch 01-21-08, 05:51 PM	Shadowsun Ninja. It's just absolutely terrible. You trade in several levels of weeaboo fightan magick (also known as manuevers and stances) in exchange for incredibly random monk abilities and other abilities which are on the verge of useless.
Broken vacuum 01-24-08, 11:27 AM	I am probably just being stupid, but I just do not see why Maester is such a bad PRC. It is a niche PrC, sure, but if crafting is what strikes your fancy, it seems ok. Free identify, two crafting feats, four caster levels some extra skill-points and accelerated crafting over 5 levels does not seem that bad. As for Shining Blade of Heironeous, about the only thing I can think of is someone wanting to combine a Paladin with cleric casting. A Cleric 4/ Paladin 4/ SBoH 10/ Full BAB class 2 would end up with BAB +19 and 5th level cleric spells. It would be sort of a slightly more casting-oriented paladin. Although it is not very good, it would probably work in a game.
Votan 01-24-08, 02:05 PM	As for Shining Blade of Heironeous, about the only thing I can think of is someone wanting to combine a Paladin with cleric casting. A Cleric 4/ Paladin 4/ SBoH 10/ Full BAB class 2 would end up with BAB +19 and 5th level cleric spells. It would be sort of a slightly more casting-oriented paladin. Although it is not very good, it would probably work in a game. Yes, but it actually has a lower caster level than a pure Paladin no matter how you slice it and loses out on a lot to get 5th level cleric spells. Also, you could do the same build using Warpriest and gotten an extra domain and a whole pile of useful spell-like abilities (plus inspire) for the same loss of casting power. Mass Heal is never a bad ability nor is haste . . .
Paladin's Pride 01-24-08, 02:23 PM	Does anyone remember royal explorer from Song and Silence in 3.0? Now THAT was the worst prestige class to ever come into existance! Bonuses on a few skills and some bonus languages. Man, what were they thinking?
turalisj 01-24-08, 05:41 PM	I know. why don't they just make a base class with almost no skill points, one good save, and bonus feats for class abilities?
The_Shaman 01-24-08, 06:39 PM	Well, the Survivor from SSpecies does something like that, I think.
turalisj 01-24-08, 07:00 PM	That's prestige class. It's 5 levels, gives you a few good bonuses actualy (don't have SS on hand atm)
Thaliost 01-24-08, 07:04 PM	From my personal experience, you never know when you can come across a good use of a lame class, so I should say, the "worst" class conclusions make not much sense...
Broken vacuum 01-24-08, 07:23 PM	Yes, but it actually has a lower caster level than a pure Paladin no matter how you slice it and loses out on a lot to get 5th level cleric spells. Also, you could do the same build using Warpriest and gotten an extra domain and a whole pile of useful spell-like abilities (plus inspire) for the same loss of casting power. Mass Heal is never a bad ability nor is haste . . . Warpriest is a better PrC, no arguments from me there. The abilities it gets more than make up for the worse save. Compared to a straight Paladin it is not that bad, though. So what if a straight Paladin has a better caster level (the difference is only one level, though). They are not directly comparable as they are from different lists and the cleric list contains a lot more than the paladin list.
JaronK 01-24-08, 07:51 PM	I know. why don't they just make a base class with almost no skill points, one good save, and bonus feats for class abilities? Teehee, subtle. And yet... Fighters are still better than the CW Samurai. JaronK
Warweaver 01-24-08, 09:43 PM	haha, nice one turalisj. I agree with JaronK too, but let's remember this is for PrCs, not base classes. :P Survivor's not bad for slapping on a monster (obviously since it's from SS) to give it abilities that would otherwise be too tough to get. Not really good for PCs though. Thaliost & broken vacuum: While I agree any PrC can be "playable" and some do have a niche, "worst" is the title of this thread and so we've tried to kind of come up with a rubric for it. So far, "worst" has come to mean: - Worse than just sticking with your base class (negating the whole reason for prestige-ing). - Worse than any other class/PrC combination by a moderately aware player. - Has a niche so small it will almost never come up in a campaign. - Fails in its own niche. For example, Blighter is nice if you're somehow stuck as an ex-druid anyway (and your DM's too mean to do some atonement or conversion thing). It also has one or two levels in very specific builds that are better than straight Druid - but getting to that point is near-suicidal, and once its over you suck again. The Shining Blade is un-optimizable due to its simplicity, and is worse than going with your base class. The Maester, as people have said, is nice if you really like crafting - but most adventurers would prefer to have something more generally effective. That said, it's probably in 4th place for "worst". The Metamind has an attractive niche, but fails at what it claims to do well.
Jaxgaret 01-25-08, 12:36 AM	The Maester, as people have said, is nice if you really like crafting - but most adventurers would prefer to have something more generally effective. That said, it's probably in 4th place for "worst". Let me break down why exactly the Maester is bad. Let's compare two basic builds: Wizard20 and Wizard15/Maester5. The Maester build nets a single bonus feat which is limited to being an item creation feat (of which you already have three), plus the not-very-useful Identification ability and Quick Crafting, plus 4 sp/level and UMD as a class skill for the 5 Maester levels. And you lose a spellcasting level, which is anathema for casters. Since the Quick Crafting ability doesn't actually make it cheaper to craft items (either gold-wise or XP-wise), it's really not that great, unless you need to craft something overnight that would normally take two days, but when is that ever going to come up? So you're trading a spellcasting level for a bit of a skill benefit and a bonus feat and some negligible abilities, and that's without factoring in the opportunity cost of not being able to take another PrC for those 5 levels. Basically, if it had 5/5 spellcasting progression it would be okay, similar to the Loremaster. Or if it actually got good abilities to make the loss of spellcasting worth the trade, that could work. As is, it stinks.
Broken vacuum 01-25-08, 04:59 AM	- Has a niche so small it will almost never come up in a campaign. I cannot agree to that definition of 'worst'. Uncommon is not bad. If you happen to want to be in that niche, the PrC is good, and if you do not, it is not any worse than any other PrC, however popular, that does not cater to the role you do want to fulfil. The Shining Blade is un-optimizable due to its simplicity, and is worse than going with your base class. Understand that I am not claiming the SBoH to be good or even tolerable, but claiming that a Cleric 4/ Paladin 4/ SBoH 10 is worse than a Paladin 18 is not unproblematic. They are just slightly different. The problem here is that there are plenty of other options in the same book that does a lot of the same but better. Let me break down why exactly the Maester is bad. Let's compare two basic builds: Wizard20 and Wizard15/Maester5. The Maester build nets a single bonus feat which is limited to being an item creation feat (of which you already have three), plus the not-very-useful Identification ability and Quick Crafting, plus 4 sp/level and UMD as a class skill for the 5 Maester levels. But reasonably speaking you only pursue the path of a Maester if you want those crafting feats. If you do not want more crafting feats, the PrC is not for you. And you lose a spellcasting level, which is anathema for casters. Sure, losing a spell-casting level is bad, but only losing one may be warranted if you get something good enough. And what that is depends on character. Since the Quick Crafting ability doesn't actually make it cheaper to craft items (either gold-wise or XP-wise), it's really not that great, unless you need to craft something overnight that would normally take two days, but when is that ever going to come up? This is where I feel your analysis fails spectacularly. For a certain sort of character, Quick Crafting is the reason to enter the class and that is why the class exists. Saving a day on the occasional short crafting may be nice, but the real benefit of the ability lies in shortening the length of bigger projects. Only a character with a real interest in crafting would bother with Maester, but that character would end up with at least 4 crafting feats and spend a considerable amount of time crafting things. And time is not something you always have unlimited amounts of. Campaigns differ, of course, but reasonably speaking it will be easier to find two weeks for crafting than it is to find a month. Pre-epic you can start projects that will take up to 200 days to finish and that is a long time. In a campaign where the characters are not in total control of the time flow between external events, cutting that time in half is valuable. So you're trading a spellcasting level for a bit of a skill benefit and a bonus feat and some negligible abilities, and that's without factoring in the opportunity cost of not being able to take another PrC for those 5 levels. The abilities are only negligible if longer crafting projects are not your thing, or if you are free to spend unlimited amounts of time crafting. Basically, if it had 5/5 spellcasting progression it would be okay, similar to the Loremaster. Or if it actually got good abilities to make the loss of spellcasting worth the trade, that could work. As is, it stinks. I am not convinced for the above reasons. To me, it looks like you judge it on its usefulness to a kind of character that really does not match the PrC. It is a bit like saying a caster PrC stinks because it does not give anything to a fighter.
Explosive_Zombie 01-25-08, 06:11 AM	My #1 vote goes to anything built for the Truenamer... any PrC built for a class with impossible-to-work-with-mechanics desires mention, but that's more of a vote for 'Worst Class Ever'. My #2 vote is for Ectopic Adept (Complete Psionics). Sure, lets rob the psionic classes of the ability to summon multiple creature, ignore the fact that caster can do it better, then make a PrC designed to showcase their silly new versions of feat dependent Astral Contructs... thanks...
Votan 01-25-08, 05:13 PM	Understand that I am not claiming the SBoH to be good or even tolerable, but claiming that a Cleric 4/ Paladin 4/ SBoH 10 is worse than a Paladin 18 is not unproblematic. They are just slightly different. The problem here is that there are plenty of other options in the same book that does a lot of the same but better. How about relative to a Cleric 18? But a Paladin 18 has a better BAB, better and more smites, nearly the same spellcasting and the same spellcasting level plus a much better mount and turn undead. The SBoH has better saves (solely due to a flaw in the multiclass system) and, for this one level, possibly better casting (depends on how you value the level 4 paladin spells vs. level 5 cleric spells). It was worse 2 levels ago for sure unless saving throws are the only criterion used. And the most interesting thing is that the increase in power is solely due to boosting the cleric levels. But here is a case where I would even consider a Cleric 9/Paladin 9 to be competitive with this build. I am not saying that every single possible aspect is worse than a single classed character because multi-classing ensures saves will improve. But I really think that is the only thing . . .
Jaxgaret 01-25-08, 05:21 PM	But reasonably speaking you only pursue the path of a Maester if you want those crafting feats. If you do not want more crafting feats, the PrC is not for you. There are other ways to garner a bonus item creation feat, but I agree with your general notion. Sure, losing a spell-casting level is bad, but only losing one may be warranted if you get something good enough. And what that is depends on character. I was speaking only of mechanical effectiveness. Losing even a single spellcasting level is almost never warranted. This is where I feel your analysis fails spectacularly. For a certain sort of character, Quick Crafting is the reason to enter the class and that is why the class exists. Saving a day on the occasional short crafting may be nice, but the real benefit of the ability lies in shortening the length of bigger projects. Only a character with a real interest in crafting would bother with Maester, but that character would end up with at least 4 crafting feats and spend a considerable amount of time crafting things. And time is not something you always have unlimited amounts of. Campaigns differ, of course, but reasonably speaking it will be easier to find two weeks for crafting than it is to find a month. Pre-epic you can start projects that will take up to 200 days to finish and that is a long time. In a campaign where the characters are not in total control of the time flow between external events, cutting that time in half is valuable. True, although there is a feat called Exceptional Artisan that reduces crafting time by 25%, and does not stack with the Quick Crafting ability. Thus Quick Crafting is only worth a net 25% reduction in time for a character focused on crafting. The abilities are only negligible if longer crafting projects are not your thing, or if you are free to spend unlimited amounts of time crafting. A 25% reduction in crafting time can be seen as a negligible benefit. I am not convinced for the above reasons. To me, it looks like you judge it on its usefulness to a kind of character that really does not match the PrC. It is a bit like saying a caster PrC stinks because it does not give anything to a fighter. I am judging it against the entire spectrum of all PrCs. This is a thread about what the worst PrCs are after all, not what the worst caster PrCs are and what the worst fighter PrCs are. Note that I never suggested it be included on the list of the worst PrCs. I just stated that it is a bad PrC, which it is. My #1 vote goes to anything built for the Truenamer... any PrC built for a class with impossible-to-work-with-mechanics desires mention, but that's more of a vote for 'Worst Class Ever'. Right. It's more a function of the Truenamer itself being broken. The PrCs seem to be okay.
Neraagile 01-26-08, 08:31 AM	I agree that PrCs that don't work for the class you'd expect (like the Dragon Disciple & Sorc) but work for other builds shouldn't count as "bad". Just..."niche". Dragon Disciple is not for Sorcerer (its not the only Spontaneous Arcane Caster around), looking at the same book, Bard is a Spontaneous Arcane Caster, has a better BAB so they would have a better use for it, Duskblade and Hexblade are the same (though Hexblade is not really an interesting class to play) Though the most interesting use I've found for DD so far is Human Monk... here's a build for you Monk - 5, Avenger - 5 (non-chaotic assassin, which also happens to be a Spontaneous Caster), Dragon Disciple - 10. Now if your DM allows flaws so much the better, because, what you want is, to be LG, get Sacred Vow and Vow of Powerty as well as Kung Fu Genious (don't know where it is besides the Feats list on www.chrystalkeep.com/d20, what it does is making the Monks AC bonus be determined by Int instead of Wis), because it overcomes a VoPov Monk's most basic problem, the lack of flight. And now for something completely different (A man with a taperecoder up his nose), 1# Ectopic Adept, 2# SBoH.
The_Shaman 01-27-08, 12:18 PM	What do you mean different, we were talking about those for a while now.
Neraagile 01-27-08, 06:48 PM	Something completely different from what I was mainly discussing. ;)
Broken vacuum 01-30-08, 08:14 AM	I was speaking only of mechanical effectiveness. Losing even a single spellcasting level is almost never warranted. I was also talking about mechanical effectiveness. And if you say 'almost never warranted' that means that there are situations where it is warranted. True, although there is a feat called Exceptional Artisan that reduces crafting time by 25%, and does not stack with the Quick Crafting ability. Thus Quick Crafting is only worth a net 25% reduction in time for a character focused on crafting. No. To benefit from a feat such as this you have to take it, thus Quick Crafting is worth 50% reduction or 25% (or 33% if you compare to the already lowered crafting time) reduction and a feat. A 25% reduction in crafting time can be seen as a negligible benefit. Cannot agree. Especially not if you add things together. Note that I never suggested it be included on the list of the worst PrCs. I just stated that it is a bad PrC, which it is. And you still have not convinced me, but let me explain it a bit further so that maybe you can see where I am coming from. Now, above you speak of Exceptional Artisan, which is a setting-specific feat and as such may not be available, but if it is, so should Extraordinary Artisan from the same book be. The problem with Exceptional Artisan is that crafting can be feat intensive. A dedicated crafter more or less always at least reserves its 3rd and 5th level feats (and frequently at least the 6th level as well) for crafting feats. A first level wizard already has Scribe Scroll and could take Exceptional Artisan as its first feat, but the feat will be useless for a number of levels. Scrolls will not come near 1000 gp for quite some time and even at 3rd level when e.g. Craft Wondrous Item is taken, the available amount of gp is so low, that the feat is unlikely to actually save you some time. At 4th level it might save you a day. Taking Extraordinary Artisan on the other hand, saves the character money from the start. But if that feat is taken, a crafter will not have access to Exceptional Artisan for some time. The PrC is only available to gnomes and aimed at characters who want to focus on crafting so that is where we have to make the comparison. A wiz 5/ Maester 1 could have Scribe Scroll, Extraordinary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Craft Construct and Craft Wand, as well as the ability to craft things twice as fast as anyone else. A gnome wizard not taking a level in Maester cannot duplicate this. He could take all of the above feats but one of the later ones, but then he would need double the time crafting things. If Exceptional Artisan is to be fit in to reduce the time difference, the pure wizard is down another crafting feat and does still not produce item as fast as the Maester. And he will have spent some levels with a feat that he received no benefit from. The pure wizard is the better caster and the Maester is the better crafter, which seems about right to me.