Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andramadus 07-21-07, 04:26 AM	I am starting yet another campaign 10th level. I will be playing a Psion. Race any, prc any. I was wondering what a good prestiege class would be? I like the Elan for a race, but am open to suggestions. Thanks
JulesCARV 07-21-07, 04:35 AM	Well, first of all, you need to decide on a discipline, or, if you don't want a discipline and have Complete Psionic, play an erudite. Elan is a fine race for a psion. Tell us more about your concept, and what you plan on doing in the game? (do you plan on blowing stuff up? Dominating people? Healing? Summoning astral constructs? (customizable "summon monster" equivalents, to a rough approximation))
Andramadus 07-21-07, 05:01 AM	Well, first of all, you need to decide on a discipline, or, if you don't want a discipline and have Complete Psionic, play an erudite. Elan is a fine race for a psion. Tell us more about your concept, and what you plan on doing in the game? (do you plan on blowing stuff up? Dominating people? Healing? Summoning astral constructs? (customizable "summon monster" equivalents, to a rough approximation)) Definatly want to blow stuff up, so I will go for the Kinetisist, or the Egoist I am eager to try out metamorphisis. The campaign will be undermountain, so I will be fighting for my life against golems galore & plenty of magics. Erudite has been banned, sinse he has access to wizard spells, although a cerebromancer is ok.
Grimmsfeld 07-21-07, 04:48 PM	Erudite has been banned, sinse he has access to wizard spells, although a cerebromancer is ok.Question...has it been banned specifically because of that? Cause, you know, you don't necessarily need to use the expanded class options...
AdventChild 07-21-07, 04:54 PM	Erudite has been banned, sinse he has access to wizard spells, although a cerebromancer is ok. Well! wizards should be banned too then and any class that can learn spell from sources. Anyways always visit the psion buildguide and compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=624041)
suomynonAyletamitlU 07-21-07, 05:00 PM	You might consider a Psion/Thrallherd build, like I'm doing for my current campaign (I haven't gotten a chance to try him out, but I'm happy with the decision so far). For a 10th level character, putting even one class level into Thrallherd gives you a leadership score of 11+Cha, which means you get one Thrall of at least 7th level. You then get to make and equip a second character which can be your own personal meatshield, lockpick, diplomat, or whatever else you (or your party) needs. I don't know exactly how Thralls respond to your commands, but my DM has ruled that they are compelled to obey you no matter what, which is cool because you can get another Thrall when you lose yours, without the pesky penalties to your Leadership score. Granted, you need at least one feat (two, if you aren't a Telepath) to pull it off, but I think it's pretty cheap. If you go the Thrallherd route long-term, as I plan to, then you also get a second Thrall, which is something that you don't get with a Leadership feat alone. Plus, you regain most of your Psion levels for powers known and PP/day... except on the levels that you get a new Thrall, 1st and 10th. So that's my recommendation. Also, this is my first post on the forums.
JulesCARV 07-21-07, 05:29 PM	If you're a kineticist, I don't think that there's all that much to be gained by taking a prestige class. How 'bout this... Elan Kineticist 10 1. Overchannel, Talented 3. Psicrystal Affinity 5. Psionic Meditation 6. Maximize Power 9. Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis) 10. Metamorphic Transfer Other feats to look into, after that: psicrystal containment and power penetration.
Torrential 07-22-07, 02:11 AM	Erudite has been banned, sinse he has access to wizard spells, although a cerebromancer is ok. Is it just me... or is this ban... just so... pointless:uh-huh: (okay, i can see how the variant erudite's ability to waive material components can be a little troublesome, but that wasn't even mentioned... and doesn't even warrant a ban in and of itself, i don't think.)
Andramadus 07-22-07, 03:19 AM	The DM thinks the Erudites ability to learn powers is bad, and that should only be for wizards. He doesn't really like the Elan either.... I will drop out of is campaign if he begins to rant and complaign about psionics. He has already expressed some distaste for psionics.
Torrential 07-22-07, 03:46 AM	There's nothing really overpowered about the Elan or the Erudite. Especially compared against what else exists in the psionics world. But, if he's expressing a strong distaste for psionics, then there's probably very little you can do about it. I've found (and I know others can back up on this) that many people look down on psionics when there are things about the system that they don't understand too well or have misconceptions about. If you can get him to sit down with the books, or have him at least visit the boards (and, perhaps, read this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253) in particular) you might have a shot at dispelling some of the issues. But if he clings to his views, then you'll just have to accept: Psionics by RAW... and the DM's campaign... those two things just won't be mixing.
Fleem 07-22-07, 12:58 PM	If you're playing a kineticist with a DM who thinks psionics is overpowered, you're going to end up with a confrontation at some point. It'll probably come even sooner if you're going to throw metamorphosis with Metamorphic Transfer in. If you want to stay in the game, discuss the whole "psionics is overpowered" thing before you start. Otherwise, have fun while it lasts.
Andramadus 07-23-07, 04:49 AM	Yeah I could just do all the same stuff with a wizard or warmage.... But the thing is, I like psionics end of story.
Torrential 07-23-07, 11:23 AM	Me too. Unfortunately, most DM's I've played with in the past simply ban Psionics outright for being "broken." As a fan, it's just something you'll just have to get used to. However, since your DM has accepted Psionics on a tentative basis (even though he still seems to hate it), you might still have a chance. Like others above have suggested, sit down with your DM and have a nice talk. Convince him that Psionics itself really isn't overpowered. Take points from the thread called Myth: The XPH is overpowered (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253), which has many of major issues covered already. Show him, that while Psionics may be powerful, Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are even more broken, using only just Core and traditionally allowed books like the Complete series. Psionics is powerful, but its focus is on its Flexibility... it doesn't hold a candle to magic in other regards. If you need help in proving this point, you could probably took a look around the Character Optimization boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) to see what can be pulled. If he still clings to his notions, then, well, he's a lost cause. Either you can play in his game w/o psionics, or you can find a new DM who allows it. Or you can just CoDzilla stomp his game into the ground. (Not guaranteed to work, but at least you'll have fun doing it :D) EDIT: And for frick's sake, a 10th level Erudite only has SIX UNIQUE POWERS PER DAY. Only 6! When I'm playing a cleric/druid/wizard/psion, I'm running about that many buffs alone, let alone what wide and multiple things I'm trying to pull in our multiple encounters/day. And there's no feat that "officially" exists that increases that number. Just because you have access to every psion or wizzie spell in the game, doesn't mean the very low amount of unique powers/day won't matter. Because it does matter... and it balances out the class a lot. Yeah, you can pick up wizard spells, and it'll add to versatility, but how many of them will you be casting during the day, really? (And, last I checked, there's no text saying that cantrips don't contribute to unique powers stipulation. Oy!). Like I mentioned above, the ability to waive expensive material components is the most troublesome factor, but minor DM houserules could easily fix that problem (even bumping up the required 2 pp to a required 4 pp would make a difference). Elans, while they may be fun, aren't as powerful from an optimization stand-point. The thread I linked to already explains this well, but to summarize: ~ The bonus pp is inconsequential at higher levels ~ No ability score bonuses or bonus powers ~ While an aberration, they still don't get darkvision ~ Repletion can be duplicated by an affordable item or relatively low-level magic spell ~ Resistance and Resilience use your Immediate Action, which means: you can't use them when you're flatfooted at the start of battle (when you'll probably need 'em most), and you can't use another Immediate Action until after the end of the turn after the upcoming turn (meaning that, during the duration, you can't use resistance/resilience a second time, or any other Swift/Immediate actions you might need to use). Really, there are much better uses available for swifts and immediates in this game.
carnivore 07-23-07, 12:31 PM	if your DM will allow Cerebremancer ....try this: Human or Kalashtar Warmage 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 6 and make sure you take some Reserve Feats or try this Gray Elf Psion (Shaper) 10 (32 point buy) 8 Str(10 base -2 racial) 16 Dex(base 14 +2 racial) 12 Con(base 14 -2 racial) 20 Int(16 base +2 racial +2 levels) 14 Wis 12 Cha Feats: Psicrystal Affinity Overchannel Talented Expanded Knowledge:Metamorphosis feats feats total Powers(assuming Psion 20.....keyed on VERSATILITY): 1st level: Astral Construct Minor Creation Vigor Precognition, Offensive Inertial Armor 2nd level: Crystal Storm Psychoportive Shelter Share pain Identify 3rd level Dispel Psionics Energy Wall TK thrust Touchsight 4th level: Burrowing Bonds Correspond Divination Wall of Ectoplasm 5th level: Hail of Crystals Plane Shift powers from 11th level and up Anticipatory Strike Major Creation 6th level: Fabricate Greater Disintegrate Temporal Acceleration 7th level: Mass Ecto coccon Energy Conversion Mind Blank, Personal 8th level: Recall Death Teleport greater True Metabolism 9th level: Genisis Assimilate Affinity field Reality Revision
anarchy1973 07-23-07, 08:44 PM	I agree partially with what you are saying Torrential, when the spell to power option came out it looked more broken than it was. The issues still lie in Character Optimization, when you take the leadership feat, get an Erudite with spells to powers option, when they can learn 9th level powers, get them to learn Psychic Chirugery, then get them to "pass on their powers". Obviously this can't happen to much later levels, but if you play in a high Psionics campaign & one that reaches epic levels, you are set. Pay GP to your cohort, he sacrifices XP, because he's lower XP than everyone else, he gets more at the end of each encounter catching up in levels rapidly.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 09:30 PM	I agree partially with what you are saying Torrential, when the spell to power option came out it looked more broken than it was. The issues still lie in Character Optimization, hwen you take the leadership feat, get an Erudite with spells to powers option, when they can learn 9th level powers, get them to learn Psychic Chirugery, then get them to "pass on their powers". Obviously this can't happen to much later levels, but if you play in a high Psionics campaign & one that reaches epic levels, you are set. Pay GP to your cohort, he sacrifices XP, because he's lower XP than everyone else, he gets more at the end of each encounter catching up in levels rapidly. To curb stuff like this our DM now gives out one chunk of xp based on the party's average level, evenly divided among the members.
Grimmsfeld 07-24-07, 05:59 AM	To curb stuff like this our DM now gives out one chunk of xp based on the party's average level, evenly divided among the members.If the cohort is figured into that, that really doesn't do anything but to hose all the other players. That, and it means that if you play the numbers right, the cohort can spend more experience than a cohort that wasn't sapping the party's experience and level up at the same rate as the rest of the party. This is BETTER for the cohort than just getting a proportional fraction of the experience the main character recieved...just an FYI for your DM. For those of you curious about the numbers...Minimum exp needed to get to level six is 15000. Say our theoretical leader lands on exactly 15000 exp and takes Leadership. If you create the cohort at minimum experience needed to attain level 4 (assuming your leadership score is high enough to have a cohort of your level-2,) he'd have 6000 experience. He needs 4000 to get to level 5. You need 6000 to get to 7th. If your cohort gets experience at the same rate you do, say 500xp per encounter, he's going to level up four encounters before you. That'll leave him with 2000 experience to dick around with that'd be lost otherwise (depending on how you handle that sort of stuff in your game...)
The_Shaman 07-24-07, 10:52 AM	Carnivore, why the low charisma in your build? I thought warmages, by and large, value charisma as a spellcasting attribute. How do you get into cerebremancer with 1 level in arcane casting class, anyway?
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 01:24 PM	If the cohort is figured into that, that really doesn't do anything but to hose all the other players. The cohort is not counted as a player. It gains a fraction of whatever its leader gains.
carnivore 07-24-07, 04:26 PM	Carnivore, why the low charisma in your build? I thought warmages, by and large, value charisma as a spellcasting attribute. How do you get into cerebremancer with 1 level in arcane casting class, anyway? actually there are 2 separate build ideas....: 1)Warmage 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 6 2)Psion 10 the Elf with stats is for the Psion 10 for the Warmage 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 6 ....something like this: Human (32 point buy) 8 Str 12 Dex(base 10 +2 item) 12 Con 20 Int(16 base +2 levels +2 item) 14 Wis 18 Cha(base 16 +2 item) Warmage 1/ Psion(Egoist) 3/ Cerebremancer 6 Warmage 1..........................Precocious Apprentice/ Practiced Caster Psion 1...............................Extend power Psion 2...............................Arcane thesis(Magic Missile) Psion 3 Cerebremancer 1 Cerebremancer 2..................Fell Drain Cerebremancer 3 Cerebremancer 4 Cerebremancer 5..................Metamorphic Transfer Cerebremancer 6 10th lvl Caster 3rd lvl Warmage Spells as 7th lvl caster 9th lvl Manifester 5th lvl powers Psion Powers Known 1st lvl Inertial Armor Precognition, Offensive Vigor Entangling Ectoplasm Channel the Psychic Dragon(Dragon Magic) 2nd lvl Ego Whip Crystal Storm Psychoportive Shelter Psychic Scimitar 3rd lvl Dispel psionics Time Hop Energy Wall TouchSight 4th lvl Metamorphosis Gemstone Breath(Dragon Magic) Wall of Ectoplasm Planar Apothesis 5th lvl Plane Shift Adapt Body Items: 5000gp +1 Mithral Breastplate 2007gp +1 Heartning Darkwood Medium Shield 4000gp gloves of Dexterity +2 4000gp Headband of Intellect +2 4000gp Cloak of Charisma +2 900 gp Hand of the Mage..gives Mage Hand At Will 2500gp eyes of the eagle...Gives +5 Spot 3750gp 5 dorjes:force shield,know direction,grease,empathy,telempathic projection 9000gp 2 dorjes:2nd lvl powers 2000gp Handy haversack 2500gp Ring of Sustenance 3000gp Rod of Extend Spell .................... 42657gp total mundane equipment: 800gp Acid flasks(80) 800gp Alchemists fire(40) 150gp Antitoxin(3) 110gp Everburning torch 200gp Holywater(8) 100gp Smoke sticks(5) 600gp Thunderstones(20) 250gp Tanglefoot Bags(5) 170gp Light Warhorse with Military saddle 150gp Guard Dogs(6)..trained........... 300gp Riding dog(2)..trained 60gp exotic Saddles(pack)(4) 16gp saddle bags(4) 200gp Misc Adventuring Gear(5 daggers, 3 short spears,1 light crossbow w/20 bolts),misc supplies , clothing, etc.... .............. 3906gp total for mundane equipment :D
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 04:32 PM	Carnivore makes great builds. The Beguiler/Ardent Cerebremancer he suggested has worked out great for me so far. In fact he's just hit level 21.
carnivore 07-24-07, 04:35 PM	yay forsaken1111 :w00t: thanks i forgot to ask how it was going ... kinda lost track of things;) :D
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 04:38 PM	yay forsaken1111 :w00t: thanks i forgot to ask how it was going ... kinda lost track of things;) :D Well I had planned to go ardent though 17+ but I realized gaining ardent 4 would give me an xp penalty as it'd be more than 1 away from my other base classes so instead I went with exalted arcanist to increase my beguiler casting and gain some more utility spells. At 21+ I plan to take an Epic Cerebremancer I've worked out with my DM.
carnivore 07-24-07, 04:55 PM	great ... im glad things worked out well.... you also could have done this...to avoid the XP penalty: Beguiler 2/ Monk 2/ Ardent 2/ Cerebremancer 10/ Anarchic Initiate 4 still Exalted Arcanist is a fun way to go also :D
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 05:21 PM	Anarchic initiate required chaotic and my DM didn't feel the change from lawful to chaotic was appropriate. The most he would allow was a 1-step change to neutral.
Torrential 07-25-07, 12:23 AM	I agree partially with what you are saying Torrential, when the spell to power option came out it looked more broken than it was. The issues still lie in Character Optimization, when you take the leadership feat, get an Erudite with spells to powers option, when they can learn 9th level powers, get them to learn Psychic Chirugery, then get them to "pass on their powers". Obviously this can't happen to much later levels, but if you play in a high Psionics campaign & one that reaches epic levels, you are set. Pay GP to your cohort, he sacrifices XP, because he's lower XP than everyone else, he gets more at the end of each encounter catching up in levels rapidly. Meh. It's an abuse accessible to erudites... yeah, I'll give it that. But other full casters/manifesters can throw down a lot more. My comment was more in relation to normal play. A 10th level druid can simply do so much more than a 10th level erudite, even w/ Spell to Power. And this doesn't change at higher levels. The low amount of unique spells available seriously gimps session-by-session, level-by-level play. Anarchic initiate required chaotic and my DM didn't feel the change from lawful to chaotic was appropriate. The most he would allow was a 1-step change to neutral. Ouch. Although... this seems a little weird to me... because, well, since its your character, isn't it still kind of your call on what alignment you want your character to play (unless, of course, chaotic alignments are banned overall from the campaign... which would be weird:P). Because, well, if your character decides that he wants to develop an artistic talent, does things to "rage" against "The Man", get in touch with his inner elf, join a group of hippies, votes Libertarian, seeks to prevent government influence of any sort on the infringement of the basic rights of man/beast/other, refuses to write home to his parents, eats his breakfast at a different time each day... and you're still out adventuring and saving babies from certain death... ...well, then wouldn't you legitimately start leaning towards CG? I'm just sayin':D Back on topic: Psion 10 is still pretty fun. If you can't decide on a prestige class, it's okay. They're not a requirement in this instance.
forsaken1111 07-25-07, 12:47 AM	Ouch. Although... this seems a little weird to me... because, well, since its your character, isn't it still kind of your call on what alignment you want your character to play (unless, of course, chaotic alignments are banned overall from the campaign... which would be weird:P). Because, well, if your character decides that he wants to develop an artistic talent, does things to "rage" against "The Man", get in touch with his inner elf, join a group of hippies, votes Libertarian, seeks to prevent government influence of any sort on the infringement of the basic rights of man/beast/other, refuses to write home to his parents, eats his breakfast at a different time each day... and you're still out adventuring and saving babies from certain death... ...well, then wouldn't you legitimately start leaning towards CG? I'm just sayin':D He didn't feel that jumping from lawful to chaotic in an instant just to pick up a class was appropriate. People don't change their entire outlook on life overnight, especially one that is level 17 and fairly set in his ways. (Lawful/Good)
Andramadus 07-25-07, 05:05 AM	The flaky DM is now a no show, too much on his hands, and not enough knowledge of the charcters in his campaign. For example some divine charcter, another character has a cohort, another has a monk prestiege class etc... and now has scraped the game:P Thanks for all your help guys :)
Torrential 07-25-07, 11:17 AM	He didn't feel that jumping from lawful to chaotic in an instant just to pick up a class was appropriate. People don't change their entire outlook on life overnight, especially one that is level 17 and fairly set in his ways. (Lawful/Good) Ah. Although, just for kicks, you should wake up one morning and decide to be as CG as you can. Say you had a dream that you died from a Heart Attack or something, and that you finally realized you've been wasting your life away. It's rare... yes, it's rare... but a person can change their actions or approach to life overnight. Don't even press the whole A.I. issue... just switch your roleplay to CG. Just. Because. Seriously, when it comes to roleplay (and alignment falls under "roleplay"), it really should be the player's call. (Unless certain types of roleplay/alignment are banned, or course). The flaky DM is now a no show, too much on his hands, and not enough knowledge of the charcters in his campaign. For example some divine charcter, another character has a cohort, another has a monk prestiege class etc... and now has scraped the game Thanks for all your help guys *sigh* IMHO, if someone wants to be a DM, that person should at least make an effort at trying to know the rules. Otherwise, everyone's time just gets wasted. Oh well. And... you're welcome :)