| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| awaken_D_M_golem12-14-07, 12:53 PM | Firstly, yep, two bucks: http://www.amazon.com/Psionics-Handbook-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying/dp/0786918357/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197653903&sr=8-4 That's less than 2 cents per page !!! It'll keep you more entertained than your relatives !!! And it's a lot less broken, than your relatives !!! Secondly, turn to p.80 in your 3rd Edition DMG. Under Variant: Nonmagical Psionics it says: Psionics aren't magical at all, but a different sort of extraordinary power altogether. And on p.81 under Spell Resistance it says: Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject. Extraordinary ... abilities are not. RAI - of course not. RAW - 3rd edition psionics pierces SR. Is this broken? Well not really. Is this out of line? One of the PrC's in Dragon Magic has as it's 10th level ability, piercing SR, but at a cost of a free action spell slot. I don't have that mechanics sitting in front of me. Psi-3.0 was/is weak, so this little boost seems vaguely interesting. What do you think? |
| Suspect_Unusual12-14-07, 01:38 PM | 3rd Edition Psionics? Ewwwwww. |
| Breetai12-14-07, 01:53 PM | Any book on Psionics isn't worth the paper it's printed on. |
| Fafnir12-14-07, 02:15 PM | Any book on 3.0 Psionics isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Fixed it for you. |
| GuyrtheadamantineOne12-14-07, 02:29 PM | Any book on Psionics isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I won't insult you or criticize your opinion, Breetai. But please, could you stop the hateful comments about psionics? Why do you even post on the psionic boards?(Please, do not hijack this thread if you want to answer. Just PM me.) |
| RadicalTaoist12-14-07, 02:33 PM | His sig's broad personal attack preceded by a "From my experience" in a thinly veiled attempt to appear as mere opinion has been reported. |
| GuyrtheadamantineOne12-14-07, 02:40 PM | I said I didn't wanted personnal attacks, so lets leave it there. Oh! And for the OP, I had bought the 3.0 Psionic Handbook, when I started gaming. I was about twelve, and even there I thought it s*cked bad. I loved the flavor,(read my sig, up there!) but psionic combat was useless unless I played in a full-psionic campaign, which was quite the opposite. |
| SlanderPanic12-14-07, 02:54 PM | I just recently spent $2 on Green Ronin's Mindshadows. I've been meaning to buy it for years, but skipped it when I went from 3.0 to 3.5 psionics. I snatched it up, along with several other ultra-discounted books, from Paizo. I'm looking forward to its arrival, even if all I ever use it for is fluff. (Sometimes, I even dig into my 2nd-edition books for fluff and character/adventure ideas.) |
| Deekin12-14-07, 03:03 PM | I don't want the natural incarnation of a natural 1 in my House! |
| Jaid12-14-07, 04:17 PM | Secondly, turn to p.80 in your 3rd Edition DMG. Under Variant: Nonmagical Psionics it says: Psionics aren't magical at all, but a different sort of extraordinary power altogether. And on p.81 under Spell Resistance it says: Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject. Extraordinary ... abilities are not. RAI - of course not. [snip] obviously you aren't particularly familiar with the nightmare that is the psionics rules for pretty much every previous edition ever (including default 3.0 by the way) |
| Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi12-14-07, 05:48 PM | If you're going to pay $2 for a book, search Amazon again. I just spent $2 on Magic of Incarnum. Much better buy. And even then, after shipping and handling, it's bumped up to $8. |
| Dead_Weasel12-14-07, 06:28 PM | http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/bumbletbw/Admiral-Ackbar-trap.jpgIf you're going to pay $2 for a book, search Amazon again. I just spent $2 on Magic of Incarnum. Much better buy. And even then, after shipping and handling, it's bumped up to $8.Do this instead. |
| awaken_D_M_golem12-15-07, 02:08 PM | obviously you aren't particularly familiar with the nightmare that is the psionics rules for pretty much every previous edition ever Try this ---> http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14459826&postcount=100 Note: I posted the word Variant; it is part of the title of that short section. Piercing Spell Resistance seems to me to be not that big of a deal. And seeing how weak 3.0 psi is, a minor upgrade is OK. My comment about $2 ... yep I coulda had a couple nights of drinking and wenching, and still gotten 3.0 Psi. Let's do the Time Hop again :) |
| Jaid12-15-07, 03:50 PM | Try this ---> http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14459826&postcount=100 Note: I posted the word Variant; it is part of the title of that short section. Piercing Spell Resistance seems to me to be not that big of a deal. And seeing how weak 3.0 psi is, a minor upgrade is OK. My comment about $2 ... yep I coulda had a couple nights of drinking and wenching, and still gotten 3.0 Psi. :) hmmm... evidently you're right =S obviously the 3.0 rules were just so painful to read that i never picked up on the fact that the DM i have who used psionics was using the variant rule, which just makes the whole system extra crappy. i still don't regret completely ignoring 3.0 psionics completely though =P |
| Arco Versipellis12-16-07, 01:13 AM | 3.0 psionics were terrible, but I read that book more than any other 3.0 book. I even had players randomly buying the book because they though it was cool, even though we knew it sucked. Imagine how crazy we went when XPH came out. |
| awaken_D_M_golem12-16-07, 02:54 PM | Hey, I played 3.0 psi regardless of whether it sucked or not. Then I discovered this board and the CO-board. Wow. Talk about ignorance is strength. It took me a couple of years to un-"role"-play myself; not that it ever left me. Still, two bucks is not much moolah to blow to be entertained for a few years. And then ... suck on my salty balls mmm ... hmm ... Dragon Magic PrC Wyrm Wizard - 10th level ability is pierce SR. Cost is 1 spell slot level per round. So a 5th level spell slot would delete SR for 5 rounds. Free Action. Wyrm Wizard also has Spell Research at 2nd level, allowing an Arcane to cast Divine; lose one caster level. Wiz 18 / WyW 2 = BAB +19, Caster Level 19. Not bad. |
| Lycanthromancer12-16-07, 03:16 PM | I wouldn't play 3.0 psionics if someone paid ME to do it. Unless it was a LARGE amount of money. I'm not that masochistic. A sadist, yes, but not a masochist. :devil: |
| Goldenbane12-16-07, 06:07 PM | obviously you aren't particularly familiar with the nightmare that is the psionics rules for pretty much every previous edition ever (including default 3.0 by the way) I thought 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook blended in nice and smoothly with the rest of 3.5 DnD. I have to say though, maybe because I really liked Psionics, that I always felt that WotC were trying to stomp them down. In 2nd Ed, psionics were sort of wizard killers. If you wanted someone to make a chump out of a wizard, you threw in psionics. I have a weird feeling that a lot of "wizard worshippers" from those days remembered their humiliation, and went out of their way to make 3.0 psionics the pussiest and most worthless class you could possibly play. Thank god someone stepped up to the plate and balanced things out in 3.5! Even so, it seems like Wizards of the Coast is trying to ignore them as much as possible. There's like, what, 5 books after Expanded Psionics Handbook that even mention psionic rules? (Complete Psionic, Frostburn, and I can't remember the other 3 books). Seems Wizards writers have much more of a hard on for stupid Warlocks (no offense Warlock fans) and Incarnum (even worse that Warlock stuff). |
| Jaid12-16-07, 10:16 PM | I thought 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook blended in nice and smoothly with the rest of 3.5 DnD. yes, it does. it is also the *current* edition of psionics, not a *previous* edition of psionics, and is therefore exempt from any statement regarding said previous editions of psionics rules, which were on the whole quite terrible (and usually broken, sometimes in both directions). |
| Goldenbane12-17-07, 12:54 AM | yes, it does. it is also the *current* edition of psionics, not a *previous* edition of psionics, and is therefore exempt from any statement regarding said previous editions of psionics rules, which were on the whole quite terrible (and usually broken, sometimes in both directions). I see what you are saying. I felt that I needed to defend 3.5 psionics just in case you (or anyone else, for that matter) were already considering 4th edition the current. I was mistaken! :) |
| CrimsonDeath12-17-07, 01:51 AM | 4th isn't current until the core books hit the shelves. |
| Dead_Weasel12-17-07, 04:28 AM | Seems Wizards writers have much more of a hard on for stupid Warlocks (no offense Warlock fans) and Incarnum (even worse that Warlock stuff).Hey, now. Say what you like about the Warlock, but Incarnum has received no attention whatsoever, which is far less than it is due. Them thar's fightan werds! |
| Darth_Serenous12-17-07, 07:08 AM | Any book on Psionics isn't worth the paper it's printed on. No, any 3rd Edition is'nt worth the paper it's printed on. Psions are cool, even if I do not allow them in my game because my players hate them. |
| Goldenbane12-17-07, 09:08 AM | Hey, now. Say what you like about the Warlock, but Incarnum has received no attention whatsoever, which is far less than it is due. Them thar's fightan werds! The thing with Incarnum is that it seems to have come out when WotC decided to go ahead with 4e. Now I will say this, while I'm not a big fan of the 'lock or Incarnum, I am more accepting of them then anything in Tome of Magic. IMO, a lot of stuff in that book just seemed to be overly coplicated versions of already existing sub-schools. (Example: Shadow magic is really just another "energy" to play with.) |
| The_Mess12-17-07, 10:55 AM | I think you give Tome of Magic too little credit. The Binder rocks the house, and the Shadowmancer was an attempt to overcome a problem Wizards have had from the beginning: How to be a themed wizard without arbitrarily weakening yourself. After all, if you say to yourself, "I'm going to play an ice-mage, I'll only take powers with the cold descriptor!", all you've done is limit your options and gotten nothing mechanically for it. That it the shadowcaster failed doesn't mean it wasn't a worthy effort. I'm definately going to have to check out Incarnum. (I'm actually having fun with a shadowcaster in an online game now, even if the class is seriously underbalanced.) |
| Starless12-17-07, 12:08 PM | I'd play 3.0 Psionics just to have my Nomad/Soulknife back. :( The transition to 3.5 killed him. His low Intelligence score suddenly meant he couldn't do anything, and his high Dexterity and Wisdom (using the secondary discipline rules for Clairsentience) were suddenly subpar choices. To make matters worse, my DM latched on to the Soulknife core class and tried to reflavor it to match the original, but part of the fun was still getting Nomad powers... *sigh* I haven't played a Psionic character since, hilariously enough. O.o |
| InkBlot12-17-07, 12:28 PM | It sounds like he would convert best as a Psychic Warrior. Wisdom is the key stat for psywars, he could use some bonus feats to get the nomad powers that aren't already on his list, and he could use the Soulbound Warrior variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)to summon a mindblade. As alternatives to Soulbound Warrior, he could take Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon), or take a 1-or-2 level dip into Soulknife, and use metaphysical weapon to keep his blade's bonuses up. |
| Rageheart12-17-07, 12:36 PM | I'd rather spend $2 on a pdf from Dreamscarred Press. :P |
| Starless12-17-07, 12:48 PM | It sounds like he would convert best as a Psychic Warrior. Wisdom is the key stat for psywars, he could use some bonus feats to get the nomad powers that aren't already on his list, and he could use the Soulbound Warrior variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)to summon a mindblade. As alternatives to Soulbound Warrior, he could take Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon), or take a 1-or-2 level dip into Soulknife, and use metaphysical weapon to keep his blade's bonuses up. Oh, trust me. I've been around this road so many times. Nothing has managed to capture the original character satisfactorily to me. He either ends up having neutered psionic power (as in, he was always intended to have 9th level psychoportation powers once we moved on into epic) or having a neutered mind-blade and no capability to be stealthy. He was really a lot like a Psi-Thief gish or something, in the end, and nothing short of homebrew can really get close to that. In my own games, I use a dual-progression class (the mind blade savant) that advances psionic manifesting and the mind blade's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage, but it's not something that works with my DM's changes to the class. He's also never been keen on most of the material from the WotC site, and Incarnum isn't allowed in the game for PC's yet (because of the fact that it's only just been "born" in the world--there's no reason for an epic Incarnum PC to exist yet). |
| Arco Versipellis12-17-07, 11:22 PM | That it the shadowcaster failed doesn't mean it wasn't a worthy effort. (I'm actually having fun with a shadowcaster in an online game now, even if the class is seriously underbalanced.) I thnk you should look here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911018). It is a thread on this foum dedicated to buffing the shadowcaster. Better yet, they don't make any real changes to the class, which makes it easier to incorporate. The class does really rock. About 3rd edition psinics, I remember rad the way ability scores work and thinking "Cool, an elfcould use his high dexterity to cast teleort spells." Then I read how if you spent 3pp you did 3d4 damage. Period. It crushed me. Of course, in retrospect, I'm glad I understand why MAD sucks now. |
| CrimsonDeath12-18-07, 03:52 AM | I built my first Psion under 3.0 rules. I showed up to the game to find out that the system had changed completely, and I had about an hour to read the XPH and convert him. And that's why he had 12 Str. |
| Arco Versipellis12-19-07, 11:32 PM | At least when you got done, you were awesome, at least by comparison. |
| Enchanter_Tom12-22-07, 07:56 PM | Why did anyone think that 3.0 psionics was playable? I mean, surely Cordell realized the epic level of fail present within. Then again, he did write CPsi... On the plus side, certainly all the failure is out of his system by now. |
| archerpwr12-22-07, 08:09 PM | On the plus side, certainly all the failure is out of his system by now. Famous last words. You've doomed 4E psionics. |
| Enchanter_Tom12-22-07, 08:32 PM | Famous last words. You've doomed 4E psionics. I think we're good. 3.0 psionics, 3.5 psionics, CPsi...looks like everything's in the clear for 4e. |
| archerpwr12-22-07, 08:41 PM | I think we're good. 3.0 psionics, 3.5 psionics, CPsi...looks like everything's in the clear for 4e. down, up, down... up? I'm not sure three things makes a pattern. It could go: down, up, down, down, up, down, down up... |
| Enchanter_Tom12-22-07, 08:48 PM | down, up, down... up? I'm not sure three things makes a pattern. It could go: down, up, down, down, up, down, down up... Yeah, probably. Damn 4e. |
| turalisj12-22-07, 09:13 PM | Any book on Psionics isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Reported for baiting. |
| TheKeyofE12-22-07, 09:15 PM | down, up, down... up? I'm not sure three things makes a pattern. It could go: down, up, down, down, up, down, down up... Well, isn't Psionics' track record something like "down, down, down, down, UP, down..."? That pattern doesn't bode well for me. |
| archerpwr12-22-07, 09:26 PM | Well, isn't Psionics' track record something like "down, down, down, down, UP, down..."? That pattern doesn't bode well for me. I'm not very familiar with 1&2E psionics, but that they sound pretty bad from what I've heard, so it would be: Bad, bad, bad, good (3.5 XPH), bad, ??? |
| CryoSilver12-22-07, 11:14 PM | I would not pay $2 for a 3.0 Psionics Handbook; there's a reason it's $2! If someone was selling a box of defective shirts covered in fiberglass, would you buy it because it's cheap? No! You'd avoid it because fiberglass sucks to have on your skin. Likewise, the 3.0 Psionics Handbook takes something good (like a shirt) and covers it in badly thought-out, craptastic mechanics that suck like the cold vacuum of space (like fiberglass on your skin). Sometimes, things are not worth buying at any price. |
| Lycanthromancer12-25-07, 12:34 AM | down, up, down... up? I'm not sure three things makes a pattern. It could go: down, up, down, down, up, down, down up... Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, start? Then you get a chime and you can access the cheats menu? |
| TheKeyofE12-25-07, 04:55 AM | EDIT: nvm. |
| archerpwr12-25-07, 01:50 PM | Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, start? Then you get a chime and you can access the cheats menu? I do believe you just made it into the win list in my book. |
| Lycanthromancer12-25-07, 02:00 PM | ...As if I wasn't there already. Hmph. :D |
| archerpwr12-25-07, 02:05 PM | ...As if I wasn't there already. Hmph. :D Well, it takes a certain something to transiton to awesomesauce to win. The Konami code is one of those things. |
| turalisj12-25-07, 02:13 PM | I had to read over it a second time to get it :P |
| Fafnir12-28-07, 09:28 AM | Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, start? Then you get a chime and you can access the cheats menu? Pure win indeed. Godmode-quality win. |
| khyron114412-28-07, 07:47 PM | Any book on Psionics isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I thought the 2e Complete Psionics handbook justified its cover price of around $18. So, that one is worth the paper it's printed on. Everything after that is bit suspect. Now I will say this, while I'm not a big fan of the 'lock or Incarnum, I am more accepting of them then anything in Tome of Magic. IMO, a lot of stuff in that book just seemed to be overly coplicated versions of already existing sub-schools. (Example: Shadow magic is really just another "energy" to play with.) I like Binders and Vestiges. It feels interesting, like a certain amount of fluff kinda resembles real world Goetic systems of magic ever so slightly. Of course, they could have done that with regular Conjurers in the core rules and I would have been at least as happy. |
| InkBlot12-29-07, 02:58 PM | Spells can do anything. That said, no way can you remake a Binder with the Wizard class. Wizards don't have 3/4's BAB, a d8 hit die, great social skills, a reason to boost Charisma, or a small suite of at-will uninterruptable non-provoking componentless supernatural abilities (some of which are only usable once every five rounds). The Binder is also the simplest of the three classes presented in Tome Of Magic. It's simpler than the core Wizard as well. It's just new and different. There are no spell slots to keep track of. There are no points to allocate. You just pick the vestige you want to use that day. The vestige grants about four supernatural abilities. These do exactly what they say they do (even the ones that mimic spells usually duplicate the text of the spell). At worst, you have to be able to count to 5 for the few abilities that have a five-round cool down before you can use then again. You don't have to keep track of separate save DCs for different levels and schools of spells. You don't have to calculate the save DC on the fly because you augmented a power. You don't have to avoid using cool lower-level abilities because the save DC is low. All vestige granted abilities use the same DC — 10 + 1/2 binder level + Charisma. It's easy to accidentally pick a bad spell or power. It's even easier to miss the powerful combos hidden below the surface. They say there's nothing more powerful than a well prepared Wizard, but nothing more pathetic than an unprepared one. As with the Tome Of Battle classes, it's very difficult to create a bad Binder. All the vestiges are good, and although some have their niches, none of them have the gulf of power present between my light and crystal shard. At the very least, nearly every last vestige grants something that's useful to a melee fighting (archery focused Leraje is the big exception). That's not even taking into account the fact that every Binder can bind every vestige available to Binders of his/her level. A Psion who chooses poorly has to wait until next level to choose again, or must pay XP to use psychic reformation. A Binder who chooses poorly just binds a different vestige the next day. When a Wizard casts a spell, the player has to about spell components, provoking attacks of opportunity, making concentration checks to avoid an AoO, and making concentration checks if he gets hit while casting. Then the player has to mark off the spell slot he had prepared that spell in. A person playing a Binder, because they use supernatural abilities, have to worry about none of that. The only thing even remotely complex about Binders are the binding check, and the sign and influence a character takes on if you fail the binding check. First of all, you can still bind the vestige even if you fail the check. It's only one roll, right when you decide which vestige to use. You also have the option to ignore the influence by taking a small penalty (-1) to some checks and rolls, and the option to simply disguise the sign (wearing a hat or a cloak is enough in most cases). The influences are always minor, like "you have difficulty recalling names and other minor details," "be nice to dwarves," or "act superior and condescending." |