Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Subtle 08-28-07, 10:08 PM	Theres no sticky for psionics in the 4th edition section so I might as well start the discussion here. What does everyone think Psionics will be like in the next edition? They'll obviously come back, judging how popular they are right now. Psions will obviously be controller types... will Psychic Warriors be Defenders or Stykers? Will soulknives become a prestige class again, a series of feats? Will they stay a base class? Will anything happen to the much unloved wilder? I'm personally hoping to see some of the old Minds Eye stuff come back... the Psychic Weapon Master and Constructor come to mind... And I'd love to see Wizards steal some of the cool 3rd party powers... Throw Ectoform and Astral Juggernaught, I'm looking at you.
Malcaor 08-28-07, 10:40 PM	I would like to do away with things like the Wilder and Psychic warrior (Soulknife is different enough), and instead have one Psion class with a medley of variants. I assume that 4e will solve the problem of being a crappy psion and a crappy fighter if you multi class (thereby making a psionic fighter). As it currently is, I love psionics. When properly used they are one of the best balanced systems int he game, and have a flavor that makes me jump with joy when i get to make a psion.
TheKeyofE 08-29-07, 08:46 AM	The Psychic Warrior is more than just a multiclass fighter/psion. I hope he stays. It will most likely be a Defender role. As for the soulknife, I think as a class it will disappear, but mindblade options will probably appear as talent trees for Psywars, and maybe Rogues or Monks, too. The Wilder will become a specialist Psion. Just remember the phrase "Class X kills Class Y and steals his stuff" in relation to 4E class design. In this case, Psion kills Wilder and steals his class abilities.
Fallenangel359 08-29-07, 09:38 AM	It flatout amused me when they said that line at the 4th edition Q&A... I was front row... the guy fixing the projector.
Bacris 08-29-07, 09:44 AM	Given this is all speculation, but also given that ToB and SWS are early tests of 4th Edition style of things, I'm expecting that the psychic warrior / psion / soulknife roles will likely be talent / feat options to customize one of the archetypes. We'll see if I'm right or if I'm way off :) Personally, I like it being separate and agree - the psywar should stay. He's the psychic bard equivalent, but a lot more combat focused. Well balanced and fun to play.
Rageheart 08-29-07, 10:43 AM	Given this is all speculation, but also given that ToB and SWS are early tests of 4th Edition style of things, I'm expecting that the psychic warrior / psion / soulknife roles will likely be talent / feat options to customize one of the archetypes. I feel Psionic classes will be "Alternate Power Sources" varients of the Archetypes. PsyWarrior = Defender + Psionic Power Source (vs. Paladin = Defender + Divine Power Source) Psion = Controller/Leader + Psionic Power Source (vs. Wizard = Controller/Leader + Arcane Power Source) Soulknife = Striker + Psionic Power Source (vs. Ranger = Striker + Martial Power Source)
InkBlot 08-29-07, 11:53 AM	As for the soulknife, I think as a class it will disappear, but mindblade options will probably appear as talent trees for Psywars IIRC, that's how it's done in D20 Modern with their psywar-equivalent advanced class.
Subtle 08-29-07, 01:57 PM	I can see the Wilder getting merged into the psion ( especially with the new talent tree type system we'll be seeing) but if the Psychic Warrior dissapears that'll feel like a step backwards for the system. Its a very cool, very different class.
DrowBattlemind 08-30-07, 04:23 PM	When the 3.0 Psionics Handbook came out, I first saw the classes in light of the 2nd edition Psionicist class: the Psion class was a more cerebral version of the Psionicist (sort of a 'Jedi Consular'), while the Psychic Warrior was a more militant version of the 2nd ed class (Y'know, the 'Jedi Guardian' type), since back in the bad old days of 2nd ed AD&D the Psionicist started with proficiency in light armor and included scimitars, hand and throwing axes, shortswords, and warhammers, among other weapons. If they do pull a Jedi and merge the psion and psychic warrior back into one class again, I hope the talent trees take this into account (although I'd prefer it if they remained separate.)
InkBlot 08-30-07, 04:39 PM	The problem with merging the Psychic Warrior and the Psion is that their power lists are themed so completely differently. Even the Egoist list doesn't hit anywhere near all the same themes as the Psychic Warrior list. It's not insurmountable, but it's difficult if they keep the idea of descrete power lists.
Novem 08-30-07, 04:43 PM	Hopefully, 3.5 version Psionics will be playable and compatible with 4E rules until 4.0 Psionics rules are published. (And, if it is a Complete Psionic, I might just keep 3.5 and update)
ShinoAburame 08-30-07, 07:05 PM	Psychic Warrior: Will probably merge from 3.5 psi-warrior and soulknife. Being focused on combat and powers to enhance combat. The mindblade more then likely a talent tree vs other talents or bonus powers. Psion: Will probably merge from 3.5 psion and wilder. To create a psychic that can manifest things with unrivaled force, or have a huge repitore of powers known. Psychic Rogue: Rarely talked about the psychic rogue or "striker type", will be a bit of everything. And probably take the abilities of The Lurker. I can immagine this new 4E psychic rogue would have talent trees that could expend powerpoints for bonuses on his sneak attack! Divine Mind: Though only fiddled with a bit with Complete Psionics. A psionic healer class would be expected. Thus you can complete the four "roles" but permit alot more versaility. And this is why it's supplemental. Because you could add it to a game, or run your own psionic based game. Because all the roles have psionics, and that is best left to a high-magic campaign.
Bacris 08-30-07, 07:14 PM	I sincerely hope they use the Ardent as the model, rather than the Divine Mind.
Suldarr'essalar 08-31-07, 01:46 AM	In 4e every class will have abilities used at will, per encounter and per day, so maybe we'll see a great return of psionic combat? I'd see it as per encounter psi-like abilities. They have a lot of potential, fluff, but poor mechanics in 3.0 As for classes I see it as most of you: psion ("kills and loots" erudite, wilder) psychic warrior ("kills and loots" soulknife, divine mind) rogue (psychic rogue, lurk, soulknife), or just psychich rogue (lurk, soulknife)
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-31-07, 01:48 AM	In 4e every class will have abilities used at will, per encounter and per day, so maybe we'll see a great return of psionic combat? If they stick to this thinking, psi will likely be completely different from what you're used to. I doubt it will still use a point system.
Deekin 08-31-07, 01:53 AM	According to the new articals, their are four roles to fill in a party. Combat, Blaster, Stealth/Social, and Leader. So going Psionics Combat: Psi-war/Soulknife Blaster: Psion/Wilder Stealth/Social: Psi-rouge/Lurk Leader: Ardent/Society Mind Wrong Roles Leader (support): Ardent/Society Mind Defender (tank): Psi-war Striker (attacker): Lurk/Soulknife Controller (battlefield control) :Psion/Wilder
angellis_ater 08-31-07, 06:03 AM	What article would that be? EVERYTHING I have read denotes the roles to be: Leader (support), Defender (tank), Striker (attacker) and Controller (battlefield control)
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-31-07, 09:56 AM	I'm very leery of any kind of 4th edition psionics. 3.5 psionics is a great alternative to Vancian casting. Unfortunately, 4th edition is getting rid of Vancian casting, so where does that leave psionics? Psionics has a long history of Very Bad Things, and they've all come in different flavors. One could view the XPH as a fluke, especially in light of Complete Psionic. I feel that WotC is going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to meet the high expectations for 4th edition psionics. Anyways, I think it's pretty pointless to speculate on this when we haven't even seen the new magic system yet. Right now, anything anyone can say is a shot in the dark. Sure, you might get lucky and hit the right space, but it's still got 50% concealment and you have to hit its AC.
Bacris 08-31-07, 10:52 AM	Ah, but I have blind-fighting.
DanteApollyon 08-31-07, 11:11 AM	I seem to play a psychic warrior all the time i love the character, you have psionic abilities and you can fight, and regardless of what anyone says Form of Doom is classical. I think they should keep the Warrior and get rid of the wilder, ive played as a soul knife and a psion before but the warrior just speaks out to me as fun for all ages.
Rageheart 08-31-07, 02:25 PM	Oh yeah Bacris, I have Touchsight out to 60'! :P So I can't see where they're going with all this but I got a bad feeling....
InkBlot 08-31-07, 03:07 PM	I'm very leery of any kind of 4th edition psionics. 3.5 psionics is a great alternative to Vancian casting. Unfortunately, 4th edition is getting rid of Vancian casting, so where does that leave psionics? They never said they were getting rid of Vancian casting. They're just diminishing it's importance, and mutating it. Technically, 3rd Edition doesn't have Vancian casting either. Wizards haven't memorized spells since 2nd Edition.
Cthulhu 08-31-07, 03:51 PM	Am I the only one quietly dreading the change to 4e and what it means for psionics? I keep flashing back to the days of waiting for 3e psi...and the terrible forum wars that erupted over its disappointing performance. I'm not looking forward to that again. As of right now psionics is nearly perfect. Sigh.
johnkretzer 08-31-07, 04:34 PM	Am I the only one quietly dreading the change to 4e and what it means for psionics? I keep flashing back to the days of waiting for 3e psi...and the terrible forum wars that erupted over its disappointing performance. I'm not looking forward to that again. As of right now psionics is nearly perfect. Sigh. No I am dreading 4th edition psionics propably more than you...but then again I am dreading everything that I have read about 4th edition also.
Suldarr'essalar 09-01-07, 04:35 AM	If they stick to this thinking, psi will likely be completely different from what you're used to. I doubt it will still use a point system. It's hard to predict that. If wizards would have to prepare spells from their spellbooks per day, and use power points (mana points) to cast those prepared spells like psionic powers in 3.5, that psionics should have a different system (Force skills from SW:Saga?). The worst thing WotC could do to psionics is not connecting them to divine, as it was done in CPsi. The worst thing is giving he same mechanics as for casting spells. I really hope we'll see psionic combat (but not based on the same resources as powers), and less "psionic X" powers.
DrowBattlemind 09-01-07, 05:02 AM	It's hard to predict that. If wizards would have to prepare spells from their spellbooks per day, and use power points (mana points) to cast those prepared spells like psionic powers in 3.5, that psionics should have a different system (Force skills from SW:Saga?). The worst thing WotC could do to psionics is not connecting them to divine, as it was done in CPsi. The worst thing is giving he same mechanics as for casting spells. I partially disagree. Going by the stated formula: Minor power/spells refresh per encounter mid-level power/spell refresh per day high-power/world-shaking spell using spell slots just replace the last line with: "high-power/world shaking powers using power points" doesn't seem so bad to me. Especially considering that Energy Burst (the psionic equivalent of Fireball) is a low level power (3rd level, to be precise, same as Fireball.)
Suldarr'essalar 09-01-07, 06:27 AM	I wasn't talking about the concept of abilities at will/per encounter/per day, I was thinking of mechanics (in this case slots/power points). I'd like to see minor powers as psionic skills, as it was done in starwars, psionic combat as per encounter and "world-shaking powers" as (i.e.) power points per day. Having energy X powers, astral constructs, and stuff like that makes psionic powers just another form of magic. While I really like the psinic 3.5 mechanics, it lost it's DarkSun's fluff (imo).
Wrong 09-01-07, 06:42 AM	Personnally I'd prefer an at-will spell-like ability based psion. No powers with a longer duration than concentration. No energy powers but force based powers. No mind/body Ki-like things but pure psychic powers. No psychometabolism, only morale effects obtained through telepathy that can include some healing and ability score boost, but not not to grow flesh from nowhere as with magic. Telepathy that allows to contact anything that has an intelligence score unless it has a specific defense against these contact. Intelligent undead or construct shouldn't be immune to a telepath just because of their type. A telepath shouldn't has the same restriction as spellcasters as they directly feeling and powering their psychic abilities. Option to link their spirit to outer-plane beings or spirits of the dead (with binder-like results or special knowledge). It should be the only option to get magic-like or flashy effects. Telepathy should be the strongest option for the psion. Most of divination, buff and debuff, and damage options should come from telepathy. A psion should abandon the sci-fi flavour of the "psion" name. Call it psychic, medium, witch, big-brain, mindicator, but not psion. Most of the problem with DMs is the sci-fi flavor of psions. So they must be put somewhere in a forest in the middle of flowers, or something else like that. It worked with illithids (stupid sci-fi E.T. bad guy with a calamar halloween mask).
Bacris 09-01-07, 07:15 AM	Personnally I'd prefer an at-will spell-like ability based psion. No powers with a longer duration than concentration. <snip> It worked with illithids (stupid sci-fi E.T. bad guy with a calamar halloween mask). What a great way to nerf psionics back to the 3.0 Stone Age. Seriously. Flavor is completely changable (see the Truenaming Psionics thread if you don't know what I mean). Making everything concentration-based would be a horrible balance decision for the psionics system and would get the psionics community more up in arms than when Complete Psionic was released.
Wrong 09-01-07, 02:56 PM	What a great way to nerf psionics back to the 3.0 Stone Age. Seriously. Flavor is completely changable (see the Truenaming Psionics thread if you don't know what I mean). Making everything concentration-based would be a horrible balance decision for the psionics system and would get the psionics community more up in arms than when Complete Psionic was released.Nerf ? Did I gave any example that make you think this way ? You suppose that what is in my head goes this way, that's all… If an at-will spell-like ability has a DC calculation of 10 + 1/2 psi level + key ability, for example, you remove a big problem, as I suppose that you thought that I was refering to warlock invocations. And an instantaneous effect that lasts until you create another psychic link of the same nature allows powerful effects while keeping balance. You could put instantaneous trigger effects in target minds. The problem is that it's ok to have magic effects that lasts after the casting, but how to explain how a psychic effect directly handled by its source lasts by itself, without requiring a form of attention from this source (the psion) ? The flavor is in the book, from the start, and a lot of people give up considering allowing psionic in their campaign just because of the sci-fi flavor, from the psion name to the power descriptions. Flavor can be changed, of course, a bard can become a dark guy who uses power words and so on, but the truth is that the psion has a big problem to be sold to a lot of gamers, and this gamers won't listen to arguments like "the flavor can be adapted". I know a lot of people in this case, my curent DM included, because they played AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, and that some remeber the time when I made a big black dragon helpless in two rounds with a "psionicist". Like the stupid races like half-elves or gnomes, the psion need a better fantasy image (packaging :P ) and a unique ability, something that others cannot do as well as them (or better, as it's the case now). And my opinion is that they should be the best to deal with minds. We saw the same phenomenon with ToB, a lot of people screamed "MANGA !" and never bought it. "Base" flavor is important. If the psion actual flavor remains, it will stay a D&D "add-on" as it is now.
Fafnir 09-01-07, 03:00 PM	Telepathy should be the strongest option for the psion. Most of divination, buff and debuff, and damage options should come from telepathy. Why not Metacreativity? When I was a kid, I dreamed about making stuff real, from my mind. Creating whole universes. Telepathy seemed so tame, in comparison... :P
DrowBattlemind 09-01-07, 03:24 PM	Telekinesis, all the way, baby :evillaugh
Bacris 09-01-07, 04:17 PM	The problem is that it's ok to have magic effects that lasts after the casting, but how to explain how a psychic effect directly handled by its source lasts by itself, without requiring a form of attention from this source (the psion) ? A surge of adrenaline can have a lasting effect, without requiring constant concentration. "Concentration duration" has a very specific meaning - the psion can't do anything else. So, all self-buffs are out, because he'd just be standing there going "I'm stronger, I'm stronger, I'm stronger" - but not actually doing anything with it. Having everything either instantaneous or concentration-based is just a bad idea, imo.
Wrong 09-01-07, 06:48 PM	A surge of adrenaline can have a lasting effect, without requiring constant concentration. "Concentration duration" has a very specific meaning - the psion can't do anything else. So, all self-buffs are out, because he'd just be standing there going "I'm stronger, I'm stronger, I'm stronger" - but not actually doing anything with it. Having everything either instantaneous or concentration-based is just a bad idea, imo.I proposed instantaneous or concentration, and you supoose that concentration would be my choice for a buff or self-buff ? Imagine a psychic aura giving a morale bonus or a psychic instantaneous alteration that grant the subject a permanent bonus until the psion stop the effect to be able to use again this power or a related serie of powers. I prefer the aura option as auras can be the support of a lot of psychic perception or effects. Why do you suppose that I want to always apply the worse option ? I will explain my opinion that telepathy should be the strong area to make the psion special among all other classes. - Telekinesis relative powers are fine for a psion, but how to explain that the physical effects obtained by the psion are stronger than ones created by the champions in this area, the spellcasters ? And then telepathy would be as it is now, fun but more and more complicated to use, as resistance to mind-affecting effects become very common with higher levels. Another point is that telekinesis offers limited development in effect versatility. I didn't understand the "energy way of doing psychokinesis" choice for 3.0 psionics. Even in sci-fi, the more flashy common uses of TK is manipulation of fire or electricity in electronic systems. For pyrokinesis, it's often an anomaly or rare ability coupled with a psychotic behaviour, and manipulating electricity in electronic systems needs more precision than power. - Psychometabolism : most of the buff effects can be obtained through telepathic subjections, and body modifications go too far in the magic domain (flesh appears, flesh disappears, flesh becomes non-living matter…). - Clairsentience : most of the effects can be telepathic effects, even forcing people to reroll dices. other effects could be obtained through a binder-like relation with dead or outer-plane spirits. - Psychoportation : running faster or jumping higher fall in the telepathic suggestion. Flying fall into telekinesis domain. Very strong telekinesis could bend dimensions and allows space and time manipulations. - Metacreativity is magic. The ectoplasm excuse to create things from nothing is very poor. To cover creature summoning, telekinesis can offer the option to create a TK construct of invisible force or using nearby matter. And other things like fabricate are openly telekinesis effects. - Telepathy offers a lot of versatility in the possible effects without requiring the big flashy powerful forces of spells : divination, buffs, damage, save or die, ground control or mental manipulations (including illusions, acceleration of perceptions, shism, mind switch…). As psions with a pure psychic power source, they should be unique people able to directly contact any intelligent mind, without physical consideration of race or type. My opinion is that the psion disciplines should be : - Telepathy (better at mental perception and manipulation than anyone else) - Telekinesis (no long lasting effects based upon force descriptor, limited teleportation effects at high level or no teleportation at all) - Spiritism (binder-like results, astral projection and strong divination, should require specialization to be as powerful as telepathy or telekinesis) Psions with an affinity with telepathic powers should be able to replace social skill checks with telepathy checks, affinity with TK should allows to replace stealth and craft skill checks with TK checks, and affinity with spiritism should allows to replace knowledge skill checks with spiritism checks. Discipline checks based on the ML and something else, for example. I am for psychic powers without any visual effects, strong impact without requiring huge amounts of forces, and without limit of use. Actual psion are a nice alternative to spellcasting, but having a limited psychic power reservoir only makes sense as a balancing factor between spellcasting and the very similar psionic system. If psions stay as they are, a sci-fi flavored alternative to spellcasters that needs to be adapted to match more fantasy flavor, we will continue to beg for more psionic love and obtain one day a very good result, like the Complete Psionic…
Jaid 09-01-07, 07:18 PM	I proposed instantaneous or concentration, and you supoose that concentration would be my choice for a buff or self-buff ? Imagine a psychic aura giving a morale bonus or a psychic instantaneous alteration that grant the subject a permanent bonus until the psion stop the effect to be able to use again this power or a related serie of powers. I prefer the aura option as auras can be the support of a lot of psychic perception or effects. Why do you suppose that I want to always apply the worse option ? probably because instantaneous buffs either don't do anything, or else they are so horribly broken that it simply never occured to him that anyone would be crazy enough to allow a permanent benefit for a temporary expenditure of resources.
AntiDjinn 09-01-07, 08:51 PM	I am not seeing why messing with someone's head shouldn't have consequences long after a mentalist stops concentrating. The shock and trauma of having someone impose a mental block, induce dementia, or scramble someone's sensorium should persist just as a wound persists long after the dagger is pulled out. After reaching into someone's mind and ripping out a memory or closing off an entire character level of training there is just no way you should have to pay some stupid round by round upkeep cost to keep them from shrugging it off and being normal again.
Dark Psion 09-01-07, 10:58 PM	I've been thinking about how I would "upgrade" the psionic classes. Psionicist: As a generalist Psion, similar to the Erudiute. Psion (Specialist): Remain, but need to be "special". They need something that sets them apart from the Psionicist and each other. My idea, signature power. A Kineticist would get a "Telekinesis" power at 1st level that augments into allmost all other TK powers. Might also add augmentations just for the specialists. Sensei: Combine the Psychic Warrior, Lurk, Soulknife and Divine Mind into one class. Take the Lurk's Augments and cross it with the D20 Modern Talent trees and create a bunch of Augment trees that would allow you to create psionic versions of Warriors, Archers, Monks, Rangers, Paladins, Bards, and Rogues. Powers would be tied to the trees like the Ardent's Mantles. Ardent/Wilder would be combined into an Anti-Psion, Chaos to their Order. Thematic in nature, based on emotion, belief and pure will power. I would break up the energy and elements mantles, but that is just because I have been watching Avatar, the Last Airbender.
Novem 09-01-07, 11:23 PM	Metacreativity *MUST* stay. MUST!!! Actually, I think I like Psionics as they are now, and will probably houserule/update them for 4.0 if 4e isn't satisfactory. Given that my only, singular, complaint with the system is the lack of "Hold-the-Focus" feats, it's quite likely I'll keep the 3.5 system.
RavinRay 09-01-07, 11:40 PM	From EN Worlder Zander, who interviewed psionics author Cordell at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206078: A few days ago, EN World member Zander asked me if he could approach Bruce Cordell as a representative of EN world at GenCon UK. I was happy to say yes, and here are the results: Q: How will psionics work? A: They will be a "power source" {but not in the PHB}. The PHB power sources will be "arcane", "divine" and "martial".
Wrong 09-02-07, 07:17 AM	I am not seeing why messing with someone's head shouldn't have consequences long after a mentalist stops concentrating. The shock and trauma of having someone impose a mental block, induce dementia, or scramble someone's sensorium should persist just as a wound persists long after the dagger is pulled out. After reaching into someone's mind and ripping out a memory or closing off an entire character level of training there is just no way you should have to pay some stupid round by round upkeep cost to keep them from shrugging it off and being normal again.I'm agree and it has nothing to do with the psion level.
bholdr_mage 09-02-07, 11:43 AM	We saw the same phenomenon with ToB, a lot of people screamed "MANGA !" and never bought it. "Base" flavor is important. If the psion actual flavor remains, it will stay a D&D "add-on" as it is now. 1) Who? People you know? Evidentally the (ToB) book sold well or the new edition wouldn't be using many parts of that particular book. I really don't have a manga feel about the book...it's a good book. That's like saying theres a phenomenon with Eberron and a lot of people were screaming warforged are robots and it isn't dnd. It still did well (and continues to do so...Keith even said that the next two books will be updated to 4th edition via ddi) 2) "Add-on?" The Marshall was an "add-on," that is now being renamed to Warlord (or at least that's the common speculation). That's going to be in the first core PHB. Saying that if the flavor remains it will remain an add-on is a very pessimistic statement. I just gave an example of how an add-on became a main feature. People change. Their dislikes and likes change. That carries over from old edition to new. Most importantly, their views sometimes change with it. Regardless, I imagine Bruce will handle 4.0 psionics. He did the 3.5 version. I think he did the 3.0 version, and if he didn't, (don't have the book any longer; gave it away) he surely used it as reference. I completely trust Mr. Cordell to not screw this edition up. He writes well, has had plenty of experience and certaintly knows what he's doing. Also, if WotC does screw up 4th edition psionics and make it open game content, I know a few individuals who would make it right...and sell a better version. :D
Fafnir 09-02-07, 01:54 PM	I really don't have a manga feel about the book...it's a good book. Seconded. Moreover, I'll add that in any case, people stating Manga=Bad simply have no idea what a good manga looks like. There's some really good stuff there. Same goes for Anime. EDIT: Of course, there's lots of crap too. *cough*cough*FreeCollarsKingdom*cough*co ugh* :rolleyes:
Bacris 09-02-07, 02:00 PM	Regardless, I imagine Bruce will handle 4.0 psionics. As long as 3.5 Bruce handles 4.0 Psionics, and not 3.0 Bruce. If it's 3.0 Bruce, color me scared.
InkBlot 09-02-07, 02:05 PM	If they get Bruce to do the 4e psionics book, I wager we've got a 50/50 shot at it being good. Cordell wrote the Illithiad and the Expanded Psionics Handbook. He also wrote Complete Psionics and the 3rd edition Psionics Handbook. "Base" flavor is important. If the psion actual flavor remains, it will stay a D&D "add-on" as it is now. I agree with this sentence, although not a lot else you've posted. Bholdr_mage, I belive you are conflating mechanics and flavor. The marshal, if it is becoming core, is becoming core because the mechanics are a good fit for the "leader" niche. The flavor is just comming along for the ride, and only because the flavor isn't very different (isn't different at all, really) from what was already present in core. The flavor of DnD-magic is a true meme. It reproduces, it protects it's territory, and it eats resources. Kids today are hearing stories of wizards from people who got their notions of wizards from D&D. Even people who never played D&D, who haven't the foggiest idea of what D&D is, are hearing stories about wizards from people who got their ideas about wizards from people who played D&D. You have to go back at least 20 years to find stories about magic that aren't influenced by D&D. The result is that most people who come into D&D find the flavor of the wizard to precisely suit his or her idea of a wizard. They jealously guard this limited notion of magic, because it's one of their cherised childhood memories. That's what they want to play. In order to get psionics into core, you would have to get them to want to play psionics. You could feasibly get them to use the psionics mechanics, but they won't let go of the flavor currently attached to Vancian-casting. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "if the psion's flavor changes, it won't have to stay a D&D "add-on" as it is now." But then it wouldn't be psionics anymore.
Milo HoBo 09-02-07, 04:23 PM	I think that it would be awesome to have the Dreamscarred Press crew to aid Bruce in 4e. It may just be a pipe dream, but it may also something that WotC should consider. Now, about base flavor. I do not think that psionics has a sci-fi flavor. Crystals? Commonly considered mystic. Meditation? Commonly considered mystic. Greek and Roman style names? Commonly used by the scholors of all ages, including the dark ages. In my opinion, the reason people call psionics sci-fi is because psionics is so flavor neutral, it's and easy argument (though incorrect), or because we still use these greek and roman style names in the fields of science, psychology, and medicine. Vancian magic is sci-fi. His story was a sci-fi world. Beakers and alchemey are pseudo-science. Those greek terms that are used in the XPH are also used for some spells. In fact, the idea of wizards using formulas to prepare spells is sci-fi IMO. If you don't want sci-fi in your game, drop vancian magic and use psionics.
InkBlot 09-02-07, 04:49 PM	Psionics is a scifi term. But D&D doesn't use it right. D&D doesn't use a lot of terms right, but that's besides the point. Psionics is a portmanteau of "psychic electronics." It was invented by a fantasy author trying to write scifi who wanted an excuse to use magic in his stories. But like I said, D&D doesn't use the term right. It doesn't help that meaning of the term itself has evolved since it's inception. There's now only a slight difference in meaning (and pronunciation) between "psionic" and "psychic." The real problem is that D&D has helped successfully convince the whole world, not just the D&D playing people of the world, that "formulas and beakers" are mysterious and magical and that psychics are scientific. If anybody should recognize the power behind consensual reality, it should be a bunch of people who like to roleplay psychics.
Fafnir 09-02-07, 04:52 PM	InkBlot speaks of truth. And bacon.
InkBlot 09-02-07, 05:07 PM	But I eat the bacon as soon as I speak it. MMmmmmm... bacon.
hovnarr 09-03-07, 10:14 AM	Is there a release date for 4th ed. psionics yet? If it's not core (a shame, a damn shame), I reckon it will take longer than next summer, eh?
Fafnir 09-03-07, 10:18 AM	Is there a release date for 4th ed. psionics yet? If it's not core (a shame, a damn shame), I reckon it will take longer than next summer, eh? It will probably be out around the end of 2008 or beginning of 2009, just in time for 4e Eberron.
AntiDjinn 09-03-07, 05:53 PM	Psionics is a scifi term. But D&D doesn't use it right. D&D doesn't use a lot of terms right, but that's besides the point. Psionics is a portmanteau of "psychic electronics." It was invented by a fantasy author trying to write scifi who wanted an excuse to use magic in his stories. But like I said, D&D doesn't use the term right. It doesn't help that meaning of the term itself has evolved since it's inception. There's now only a slight difference in meaning (and pronunciation) between "psionic" and "psychic." The real problem is that D&D has helped successfully convince the whole world, not just the D&D playing people of the world, that "formulas and beakers" are mysterious and magical and that psychics are scientific. If anybody should recognize the power behind consensual reality, it should be a bunch of people who like to roleplay psychics. When someone looks at D&D psionics and says it seems too scientific or too "Sci-Fi" what he is really saying is that he doesn't know science, it is just a bunch of confusing words, so all confusing words must also be science. D&D psionics is definitely not science; mysticism, yes, Junginan psychobabble, yes, but science - no way. Metamorphosis - You can gain and loose mass, can transform terminally differentiated cells without them becoming neoplastic, can rearrange organs and tissues in seconds and still have them be functional, and can do all of this without knowledge of cellular and molecular biology. Iron Body - Your entire body is made of iron yet you still live? How do you think when your neurons don't have a phospholipid bi-layer to depolarize? If your only neurotransmitters are more iron atoms then how are they conveying any information? How do you see when your retinas contain iron instead of rhodopsin? Nope, none of this is science, none of it could pass for science fiction unless it is aimed at the MTV-raised, never cracked a book crowd. Those who insist that everything has to sound medieval (neglecting the fact that none of the game worlds are set in Earth's European past) forget (or never knew) that the Greek and Latin word roots that we use for modern neologisms were known to people in the middle ages (or they would not be known to us). Would da Vinci have been able to look at the word "polymorph" and figured out what it meant? Sure, many-shape would have been obvious. One former gamer in my group complained the modern word "homunculus" did not belong in a medieval setting. We showed her that the word actually comes directly from the accounts of medieval alchemists and was not invented for the animae Full Metal Alchemist as she had assumed. There are many reasons to dislike a particular sub-set of the rules, but for a poor vocabulary to be one of them is kind of pathetic.
Nephlite 09-03-07, 06:26 PM	When someone looks at D&D psionics and says it seems too scientific or too "Sci-Fi" what he is really saying is that he doesn't know science, it is just a bunch of confusing words, so all confusing words must also be science. True, but he is also saying Greeks and Latin are Sci Fi. Because most Science uses Latin/Greek. Look at Logic (logos), Physics (nature/natural order), etc. D&D psionics is definitely not science; mysticism, yes, Junginan psychobabble, yes, but science - no way. Metamorphosis - You can gain and loose mass, can transform terminally differentiated cells without them becoming neoplastic, can rearrange organs and tissues in seconds and still have them be functional, and can do all of this without knowledge of cellular and molecular biology. Iron Body - Your entire body is made of iron yet you still live? How do you think when your neurons don't have a phospholipid bi-layer to depolarize? If your only neurotransmitters are more iron atoms then how are they conveying any information? How do you see when your retinas contain iron instead of rhodopsin? Nope, none of this is science, none of it could pass for science fiction unless it is aimed at the MTV-raised, never cracked a book crowd. Those who insist that everything has to sound medieval (neglecting the fact that none of the game worlds are set in Earth's European past) forget (or never knew) that the Greek and Latin word roots that we use for modern neologisms were known to people in the middle ages (or they would not be known to us). Would da Vinci have been able to look at the word "polymorph" and figured out what it meant? Sure, many-shape would have been obvious. One former gamer in my group complained the modern word "homunculus" did not belong in a medieval setting. We showed her that the word actually comes directly from the accounts of medieval alchemists and was not invented for the animae Full Metal Alchemist as she had assumed. There are many reasons to dislike a particular sub-set of the rules, but for a poor vocabulary to be one of them is kind of pathetic. I know, funny.