A few questions about the rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few questions about the rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
criticalstriker
02-13-08, 06:53 PM I need a bit of advice. A player of mine is going to be playing a Psion and has been plotting a few uses for the powers that are(in my opinion) kind of out of the box.

I'd just like some help clarifying whether these would work or not.

One of her ideas is to Time Hop a single brick in a wall, have her psicrystal crawl through the hole, then use Dimension Swap on it to get into otherwise unaccessible areas.

Here is my first question, would the wall count as a single object? Or would you count each individual brick as a separate object?

Another idea, along the same lines, is to Time Hop a nobles purse, then catch it when it reappears.

Again, would the purse and the gold inside count as one object? Or many?

Then she proposed she could Time Hop a guys horse, which would make him fall off, and if he didn't move soon enough, the horse would run him over.

Again, same thing with doors, could she Time Hop the door? Or the hinges on a door?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Zappy
02-13-08, 07:19 PM Well I've never used it but from my understanding the answeres to your questions are:

Single brick in a wall. I'd say as it's any object up to 300 lbs. If she tries to hop the whole wall then I'd say no as it's made up of individual bricks.

The purse I believe was covered in another thread on a character being swallowed whole. As I recall the end of that debate puts this question as she hops the purse and the coins spill all over the floor.

As for the horse bit. Absolutely not, sort of. The horse goes away then reappears in exactly the same postion, orientation, and condition. However it moves to the nearest unoccupied square if the square it left is occupied. The guy would fall to the ground and the horse would come back and have to move over for him. Of course odds are actually that as far as physics are concerened he'd be thrown forward slightly due to momentum. Thereby when the horse comes back his square is empty and the guy is in front and gets trampled. But I think one round (minimum time) is plenty to get out of the way.
Zappy
02-13-08, 07:47 PM Here's the link to the original swallowed whole discussion.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=974648&highlight=swallowed+whole
AntiDjinn
02-13-08, 08:54 PM The first question hinges on what you consider to be an object. I would be disinclined to allow a single brick to be hopped out since it is mortared to the bricks around it and thus can not be moved about as a separate object. If the player persists that a fixed in place brick is an object, then point out that each molecule that makes up that brick is also an object by extension of his logic in assuming that a brick as a sub-unit of the wall may be defined as an object. If you decide to allow single bricks to be hopped out, then fine, but it will mean a hole can be opened in a brick wall, but not in a wall of solid glass or ice. It probably won't matter: Walls composed of a single layer of bricks are fairly rare; when was the last time you encountered such a wall in a dungeon?

There is actually no official definition of objects in the game, but here is what I use: Ability to move or be moved as a defined unit. Thus, in a stack of books, one book is an object because it can be removed from the stack. A door is an object because it can be opened and closed (though attached at the hinges, it is a separate object that happens to interdigitate with the frame at certain points).

If you are thinking ahead about Time Hop adjudication, another issue to consider (because it will arise) is the chest of treasure issue. If a chest is hopped into the future, do the contents go with it or do they spill out onto the ground? If they spill out, then the chest may need to be displaced upon its return since contents will occupy its previous position. If contents go with the chest, then Time Hop can't be used to bypass locks and traps on the chest. What I would do on this account is: Be mindful of the weight limit, and define the chest as an integrated or discrete object based on what the character knows. If the character knows what is in the chest or knows its dimensions, then he can hop out just the chest and leave the contents. If chest and contents are complete mysteries to the manifester, then he can only treat it as a single object. This actually means there will be a use for Psionic Knock, which otherwise would be replaced by Time Hop.
InkBlot
02-14-08, 02:25 AM There is actually no official definition of objects in the game, but here is what I use: Ability to move or be moved as a defined unit. Thus, in a stack of books, one book is an object because it can be removed from the stack. A door is an object because it can be opened and closed (though attached at the hinges, it is a separate object that happens to interdigitate with the frame at certain points).

That's pretty much how I go as well; whether the object can be moved independently or with as part of a group. To use the stack-of-books example again, I'd let a psion hop one book because you could also simply reach out and pull out a single book. I would also allow the psion to hop the whole stack of books at once, since you can pick up the bottom book and move around all the rest of the books with it.

For the treasure chest issue, I'd say that the psion can decide to hop just the chest, or the chest with the treasure, with each individual manifestation of time hop.

You can't move a brick in a wall without first chipping away the mortar, and then using a sledge hammer to knock the brick out. So I'd say that it's not possible to use time hop to remove a single brick from the wall. It's not really a balance issue in my mind, since you could just as easily use clairvoyant sense and dimension door in a similar manner (without spending a feat to get a psicrystal, but waiting a couple levels to learn dimension door). There are lots of ways for psions, wizards, and even fighters to bypass simple brick walls.
CrimsonDeath
02-14-08, 03:43 AM There's also the fact that if you let someone Time Hop one brick out of a wall, or the hinges off a door, then you open the way to Time Hop the handle out of an axe or the buckle off of a saddle. All of a sudden, Time Hop is destroying objects, which is way outside the power's scope.

Also note that if you do try to Time Hop somebody's coin purse, the person holding or wearing the purse gets a save (or the purse itself does, if its saves are better for some reason). And I'm not sure under what circumstances you realize that a piece of your gear has been hit by a power, but one way or the other (possibly both ways) he'll notice there's something up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
criticalstriker 02-13-08, 06:53 PM	I need a bit of advice. A player of mine is going to be playing a Psion and has been plotting a few uses for the powers that are(in my opinion) kind of out of the box. I'd just like some help clarifying whether these would work or not. One of her ideas is to Time Hop a single brick in a wall, have her psicrystal crawl through the hole, then use Dimension Swap on it to get into otherwise unaccessible areas. Here is my first question, would the wall count as a single object? Or would you count each individual brick as a separate object? Another idea, along the same lines, is to Time Hop a nobles purse, then catch it when it reappears. Again, would the purse and the gold inside count as one object? Or many? Then she proposed she could Time Hop a guys horse, which would make him fall off, and if he didn't move soon enough, the horse would run him over. Again, same thing with doors, could she Time Hop the door? Or the hinges on a door? Thanks in advance for any help.
Zappy 02-13-08, 07:19 PM	Well I've never used it but from my understanding the answeres to your questions are: Single brick in a wall. I'd say as it's any object up to 300 lbs. If she tries to hop the whole wall then I'd say no as it's made up of individual bricks. The purse I believe was covered in another thread on a character being swallowed whole. As I recall the end of that debate puts this question as she hops the purse and the coins spill all over the floor. As for the horse bit. Absolutely not, sort of. The horse goes away then reappears in exactly the same postion, orientation, and condition. However it moves to the nearest unoccupied square if the square it left is occupied. The guy would fall to the ground and the horse would come back and have to move over for him. Of course odds are actually that as far as physics are concerened he'd be thrown forward slightly due to momentum. Thereby when the horse comes back his square is empty and the guy is in front and gets trampled. But I think one round (minimum time) is plenty to get out of the way.
Zappy 02-13-08, 07:47 PM	Here's the link to the original swallowed whole discussion. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=974648&highlight=swallowed+whole
AntiDjinn 02-13-08, 08:54 PM	The first question hinges on what you consider to be an object. I would be disinclined to allow a single brick to be hopped out since it is mortared to the bricks around it and thus can not be moved about as a separate object. If the player persists that a fixed in place brick is an object, then point out that each molecule that makes up that brick is also an object by extension of his logic in assuming that a brick as a sub-unit of the wall may be defined as an object. If you decide to allow single bricks to be hopped out, then fine, but it will mean a hole can be opened in a brick wall, but not in a wall of solid glass or ice. It probably won't matter: Walls composed of a single layer of bricks are fairly rare; when was the last time you encountered such a wall in a dungeon? There is actually no official definition of objects in the game, but here is what I use: Ability to move or be moved as a defined unit. Thus, in a stack of books, one book is an object because it can be removed from the stack. A door is an object because it can be opened and closed (though attached at the hinges, it is a separate object that happens to interdigitate with the frame at certain points). If you are thinking ahead about Time Hop adjudication, another issue to consider (because it will arise) is the chest of treasure issue. If a chest is hopped into the future, do the contents go with it or do they spill out onto the ground? If they spill out, then the chest may need to be displaced upon its return since contents will occupy its previous position. If contents go with the chest, then Time Hop can't be used to bypass locks and traps on the chest. What I would do on this account is: Be mindful of the weight limit, and define the chest as an integrated or discrete object based on what the character knows. If the character knows what is in the chest or knows its dimensions, then he can hop out just the chest and leave the contents. If chest and contents are complete mysteries to the manifester, then he can only treat it as a single object. This actually means there will be a use for Psionic Knock, which otherwise would be replaced by Time Hop.
InkBlot 02-14-08, 02:25 AM	There is actually no official definition of objects in the game, but here is what I use: Ability to move or be moved as a defined unit. Thus, in a stack of books, one book is an object because it can be removed from the stack. A door is an object because it can be opened and closed (though attached at the hinges, it is a separate object that happens to interdigitate with the frame at certain points). That's pretty much how I go as well; whether the object can be moved independently or with as part of a group. To use the stack-of-books example again, I'd let a psion hop one book because you could also simply reach out and pull out a single book. I would also allow the psion to hop the whole stack of books at once, since you can pick up the bottom book and move around all the rest of the books with it. For the treasure chest issue, I'd say that the psion can decide to hop just the chest, or the chest with the treasure, with each individual manifestation of time hop. You can't move a brick in a wall without first chipping away the mortar, and then using a sledge hammer to knock the brick out. So I'd say that it's not possible to use time hop to remove a single brick from the wall. It's not really a balance issue in my mind, since you could just as easily use clairvoyant sense and dimension door in a similar manner (without spending a feat to get a psicrystal, but waiting a couple levels to learn dimension door). There are lots of ways for psions, wizards, and even fighters to bypass simple brick walls.
CrimsonDeath 02-14-08, 03:43 AM	There's also the fact that if you let someone Time Hop one brick out of a wall, or the hinges off a door, then you open the way to Time Hop the handle out of an axe or the buckle off of a saddle. All of a sudden, Time Hop is destroying objects, which is way outside the power's scope. Also note that if you do try to Time Hop somebody's coin purse, the person holding or wearing the purse gets a save (or the purse itself does, if its saves are better for some reason). And I'm not sure under what circumstances you realize that a piece of your gear has been hit by a power, but one way or the other (possibly both ways) he'll notice there's something up.