A real pschic Warrior??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A real pschic Warrior??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
taylors005
03-15-07, 09:37 PM does anyone have anything to add on the lack of a real warrior with psionic ability???
my dm and i cheaply altered the Psychic Warrior by improving the BAB to that of a warriors and reduced it's power points/powers known/max power lvl to match the divine minds and then we called it a Psionic Soldier

but i know somebody out there has a real good alternative its just finding them and it
Tempest Stormwind
03-15-07, 09:49 PM Did you ever actually try running the psychic warrior as printed?

It works fine as a warrior class. There's no need whatsoever to change it. It's considered one of the bes-tbalanced classes published.

In fact, there's an entire other thread on the subject here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=804407).

Oh, and please read that link. I wouldn't need to remind you of that if not for your thread on standard classes, where one link answered all your questions and you appeared to ignore it.

Since you cross-posted this to Classes, so will I.

I apologize for my demeanor, but this honestly is something that could be answered by yourself.
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-15-07, 10:19 PM Why? The psychic warrior is most comparable to a cleric in terms of power and versatility in combat (and the cleric is overpowered already).

Why did you think it had problems in the first place? Psychic warriors get more bonus psionic feats than any other class in the game, and are good manifesters within their own scope.
JulesCARV
03-15-07, 10:29 PM So let me see: you want a psychic type with full base attack bonus, but with more limited manifesting than a psychic warrior?
AntiDjinn
03-15-07, 10:32 PM If you have made something that resembles the Divine Mind then keep it in an airtight container; single biggest waste of space in Comp. Psi. The Psychic Warrior is balanced against the cleric (arguably the most powerful class in the game) and does just fine in a fight. They get bonus feats hand over fist and they select from a list comprised of the bonus feats available to fighters and all psionic feats. They are also full manifesters even if their powers cap at 6th level: A 20th level PsW manifests at level 20 and can stand up to other full manifesters of comparable level trying to dispel him.
Wharin
03-15-07, 11:56 PM Yeah, Psy War's are definately my new favorite... well tied with Cleric. The only PRC i would consider is WarMind, but thats because it fits my build of taking maximum advantage of Expansion and Sweeping Strike.

Expanded Knowledge lets you grab a blasty power and grab Wis boosting items (or Animal Affinity, really) and you'll be blasting with the best of them. Otherwise you'll be doing just fine with combat.
Scion of Coldshard
03-16-07, 12:16 AM psychic warrior is great! although I do increase their base pp's to (base+1)*1.5.

I find it works out a lot better that way.
taylors005
03-16-07, 02:07 AM I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior.
It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that other
calronmoonflower
03-16-07, 02:31 AM VARIANT FIGHTER: PSYCHIC FIGHTER

A psychic fighter combines combat prowess with psychic abilities to become an unparalleled engine of destruction.
Class Features

- Skills: Add Concentration

- Bonus feats: At 1st level a psychic fighter gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. Those that already have power points may take Psionic Talent instead. At 2nd level and every other level there after, they gain either a bonus feat from the fighters list or a psionic feat. They cannot gain feats that require levels of fighter unless they meet the minimum level requirements. This replaces a fighter’s normal bonus feats progression.
TheAnthroDM
03-16-07, 02:32 AM I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior.
It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that otherSince when is a cleric or psychic warrior a non-combatant? Just wondering. :confused:
ArcTan
03-16-07, 03:21 AM I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior.
It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that other

Y'know, 1:1 BAB really kind of sucks when you compare it to buff spells, at least if you have good enough access to the right buffs.

Clerics and Psychic Warriors are *so* much better at fighting than Fighters (at least core-only Fighters) it's not even funny. Giving Clerics full BAB would only serve to add insult to injury.
Fireclave
03-16-07, 03:44 AM I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior.
It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that other
So...assuming by "noncombantant" you mean "wis/sor", you want a melee fighter with full bab and secodary spellcasting? Sounds like you want to play a ranger, paladin, warmage, or duskblade.

Though the psywar, as is, would meet your martial needs as well. So would the wilder, bard, cleric, and druid. Full bab is over rated.
serow_#R
03-16-07, 07:56 AM Give the current psy-war a run through before deciding to change it.
It's really much more versatile than you think!
Shado
03-16-07, 11:59 AM If BAB is so important, just PrC to Slayer. You end up with BAB of 17 and a ML of 19 with a PW 11/Slayer 9 build.
Kanachi
03-16-07, 12:33 PM Or throw some ghost breaker levels in there if you really want to get your bab up without sacrificing your ML. As has been said though full bab is over-rated… don’t forget that numerous powers exist that can really help you buff up your bab with little cost (precognition, offence for starters). Psi-warriors have some fantastic flavour and are probably my favourite melee class.
RadicalTaoist
03-16-07, 03:42 PM A few notes:

The Psychic Warrior is nowhere near the Cleric in power. This is a good thing. The Cleric is mad broken.

The Psychic Warrior is probably the most balanced class in D&D 3.5 right now
taylors005
03-16-07, 04:19 PM i just want a variant, not all of you telling me how great the class is already. If you want to post about how great the Psy-War class is or tell me how wrong and over powered the Cleric is go post somewhere else i just want an over abundant knowledge on variant rules other people think of so i can figure out how balanced my creations are in comparison. i personally hate non druid or ranger divine casters especially clerics, devout classes again clerics, and most arcane classes. i know i need them to survive, but i wont be them i want a class i will play; mostly 1 class: +1BAB
Tempest Stormwind
03-16-07, 04:28 PM The only published full-base-attack manifester is Untapped Potential's Marksman. It has power points comparable to the psychic rogue and a power list comparable to, but slightly less varied, the psychic warrior's list. The marksman does, however, have a few unique class features.

Look, why do you insist on full base attack? Every reason for choosing it over a medium base attack class can be handled by the psychic warrior's power list. For that reason -- the LIST, not the points -- the psywar with full base attack would be overpowered.
DarknessEternal
03-16-07, 04:29 PM Good base attack is worthless compared to medium base attack and Psychic Warrior powers.

The Psychic Warrior is much more of a warrior than your idea could ever hope for.
taylors005
03-16-07, 04:43 PM i don't care any more i know my class isn't as powerful as the true Psychic Warrior that was the point. when you sacrifice a really good thing and replace it with something not as good (or really bad)... guess what happens??? i want a class more on a fighter flavor than over powered clerical badassness.

what is this book you have spoken of Untapped Potential? and this Marksman class?
Red12
03-16-07, 05:00 PM Untapped Potential is published by Dreamscarred Press. Google it. Its a quality psionic supplement.

The Marksman is a Full-BAB class that has some psionic powers. It does, however, focus on ranged combat. (exclusively).

The thing is, taylor, is that the Psychic warrior is THE warrior class for psionic games. It doesn't have full BAB, its true- but thems the breaks. It doesn't need to have full BAB. (however, with the advent of the duskblade, you could make a case against that). So when you say you want a psionic fighter type character, the best and cleanest option IS the psychic warrior, so everyone is going to sing praises to you about it.
JulesCARV
03-16-07, 05:46 PM How 'bout this:

-You get full BAB

-You gain effective levels of psychic warrior manifesting only on levels in which you don't gain a bonus feat i.e., you gain your first power and your power point reserve at level 3, after not being a manifester for levels 1 and 2. You gain psywar levels on levels 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, and 19.

There. Now you end up from a "level 20" perspective with 12 powers known, 12 manifester levels, 4th level powers, full base attack bonus, and nice bonus feats. Compared to a fighter, you're downgrading hit dice from d10 to d8, lose access to special fighter-only feats, lose 3 fighter bonus feats, and lose tower shield proficiency, but gain 60% psychic warrior manifesting.

As a variant, this cannot be multiclassed with psychic warrior.
The_Shaman
03-16-07, 10:04 PM Or you could go into PrCs. A pity, I suppose, but if you want less manifesting and more smackdown, it's an option. A fighter4/PWar 4 is a good jumping board for various PrCs and hence builds.
myusernameis
03-16-07, 10:29 PM You my friend, need to play a warmind, go the prestige class section.
kelvinaw273
03-17-07, 11:08 AM There is a good reason no psionic class has full BAB, and it has to do with balance. While Duskblades may have full BAB, as do Hexblades, Rangers and Paladins, their spells have limitations that psychic warrior powers don't - they usually have to have a hand free to cast, they have to speak, and they often need a focus or material componant.

Psionic powers don't need any of those things. A psychic warrior can use his powers tied up, gagged and stripped. None of these can.
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-17-07, 09:17 PM There is a good reason no psionic class has full BAB, and it has to do with balance. While Duskblades may have full BAB, as do Hexblades, Rangers and Paladins, their spells have limitations that psychic warrior powers don't - they usually have to have a hand free to cast, they have to speak, and they often need a focus or material componant.

Psionic powers don't need any of those things. A psychic warrior can use his powers tied up, gagged and stripped. None of these can.

Psychic warriors can also manifest level 6 powers at full manifester level...
Scion of Coldshard
03-17-07, 10:03 PM psychic warrior vs duskblade. Interesting.

Psychic warrior at level 20: 20d8 hp, BAB +15, F+12, R+6, W+6, 127 base pp, 20 powers known, access to 6th level powers, 20th manifester level, 8 bonus feats

Duskblade at level 20: 20d8 hp, BAB +20, F+12, R+6, W+12, base spells (6 0th, 10 1st, 10 2nd, 10 3rd, 8 4th, 6 5th), 23+starting(? maybe not) int bonus spells known, access to 5th level spells, 20th caster level, arcane attunement, armored mage (light, light shield, medium, heavy shield), combat casting, arcane channeling (standard or full-attack), quick cast 4/day, spell power +5

Both have mostly offensive abilities but the psychic warrior has more defensive ones than the duskblade.

Ignoring the difference in choices for powers and spells for the moment.

Trade in the 8 bonus feats for +5 BAB, +6 Will, 76 more pp base equivalent (The spells to pp equivalency gives 203 (0th = 1/2), this neglects free scaling), the ability to attack and use an offensive spell, free quicken a very limited number of times per day, and a better ability to penetrate SR.

Tough call. There are some 'very' good offensive spells on the duskblade list after all and some intersting buffs (such as +4 deflection +sonic damage to attacker along with potential knockback when they hit you).

With my normal fix the duskblade is still ahead by an effective 11 pp's without taking scaling into account.

So, are the extra buffs and utilities plus custamizeability of the psychic warrior equivalent overall to the extras of the duskblade?

Tough question.

Edit: Just took a look at level 1 instead of level 20. wow
psychic warrior: d8 hd, BAB +0, F+2, R+0, W+0, 0 base pp, 1 power known, access to 1st level powers, 1st manifester level, 1 bonus feat
duskblade: d8 hd, BAB +1, F+2, R+0, W+2, base spells (3 0th, 2 1st), 4+starting(? maybe not) int bonus spells known, access to 0th and 1st level spells, 1st caster level, arcane attunement, armored mage (light, light shield)

I would say that the duskblade is nicely ahead combat wise at this point and I am not sure if he is all that behind in any other areas.
kelvinaw273
03-18-07, 01:15 PM I would say that the duskblade is nicely ahead combat wise at this point and I am not sure if he is all that behind in any other areas.

Armour. The Psychic Warrior has any armour, all but tower shield if I recall correctly. That makes a big diference at 1st level - the duskblade might have +1 BAB, but the PsyWar has several AC points advantage.
JulesCARV
03-18-07, 01:22 PM At level 1, you can't really afford much better armor than light anyway. I mean, if the duskblade is rich enough to afford a chain shirt, the psychic warrior is, at best, wearing chainmail or breastplate. If the duskblade can only afford studded leather, the psychic warrior has scale mail at best. This is a difference of 1 AC. Not totally insignificant, but then neither is +1 base attack bonus, not to mention that if the psychic warrior is in scale or chainmail, he'll be slower than the duskblade (barring racial speed differences).

UPDATE: Most people prefer using two-handed weapons, but if they both decide to go for a one-hander-and-shield route, then the difference between the duskblade's buckler or light shield and the psychic warrior's heavy shield is another +1 AC for the psychic warrior.

Theoretically, a psychic warrior with a lot of first-level wealth sinking almost all of it into armor could afford splint armor. That's only better than chainmail, though, if he has 11 or lower dexterity.
awaken_D_M_golem
03-18-07, 03:57 PM Ardent 4 / +1BAB 2 / Storm-ish PrC 4 / Slayer 10
BAB +19 , -Fester level 20 with Practised Manifester , full 8+9s via feat cherry picking.
shhh ... don't get recharge going m'cuz thats 'bork-ny'.

Not quite as good as a Cleric with Miracle and DivinePower.

The King of Smack is linked around here somewhere :)
Scion of Coldshard
03-18-07, 04:41 PM Armour. The Psychic Warrior has any armour, all but tower shield if I recall correctly. That makes a big diference at 1st level - the duskblade might have +1 BAB, but the PsyWar has several AC points advantage.

JulesCARV already went into it but wealth is definately a factor here.

The average psychic warrior starts off with 125gp while the average duskblade starts off with 150gp. Neither can get very high on the armor chart without seriously impacting other gear choices.

Plus going for a medium armor really reduces mobility and at this low of a level there are not many ways around that. Mounts are expensive, magical items are really expensive, and spells/powers are not long enough lasting yet to be counted on. So that mobility hit will hurt, especially if you are trading in mobility for one point of AC.

A chain shirt (100), longsword (15gp), light shield (3gp or 9gp) totals up to 118 or 124. The psychic warrior would have either 7 or 1 gp remaining while the duskblade would have either 32 or 26 gp remaining. Same AC for both, same movement.

A scale mail (50gp), longsword (15gp), heavy shield (7gp or 20gp) totals up to 72 or 85 gp. The total AC bonus is 2 higher but the speed is lower and the armor check penalty is higher. A lot less gold spent though, so the psychic warrior could go this route. I would personally hate the loss in movement though.

So, 2 points of AC for a few levels at the cost of movement and some skills. I think my comment still stands ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
taylors005 03-15-07, 09:37 PM	does anyone have anything to add on the lack of a real warrior with psionic ability??? my dm and i cheaply altered the Psychic Warrior by improving the BAB to that of a warriors and reduced it's power points/powers known/max power lvl to match the divine minds and then we called it a Psionic Soldier but i know somebody out there has a real good alternative its just finding them and it
Tempest Stormwind 03-15-07, 09:49 PM	Did you ever actually try running the psychic warrior as printed? It works fine as a warrior class. There's no need whatsoever to change it. It's considered one of the bes-tbalanced classes published. In fact, there's an entire other thread on the subject here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=804407). Oh, and please read that link. I wouldn't need to remind you of that if not for your thread on standard classes, where one link answered all your questions and you appeared to ignore it. Since you cross-posted this to Classes, so will I. I apologize for my demeanor, but this honestly is something that could be answered by yourself.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-15-07, 10:19 PM	Why? The psychic warrior is most comparable to a cleric in terms of power and versatility in combat (and the cleric is overpowered already). Why did you think it had problems in the first place? Psychic warriors get more bonus psionic feats than any other class in the game, and are good manifesters within their own scope.
JulesCARV 03-15-07, 10:29 PM	So let me see: you want a psychic type with full base attack bonus, but with more limited manifesting than a psychic warrior?
AntiDjinn 03-15-07, 10:32 PM	If you have made something that resembles the Divine Mind then keep it in an airtight container; single biggest waste of space in Comp. Psi. The Psychic Warrior is balanced against the cleric (arguably the most powerful class in the game) and does just fine in a fight. They get bonus feats hand over fist and they select from a list comprised of the bonus feats available to fighters and all psionic feats. They are also full manifesters even if their powers cap at 6th level: A 20th level PsW manifests at level 20 and can stand up to other full manifesters of comparable level trying to dispel him.
Wharin 03-15-07, 11:56 PM	Yeah, Psy War's are definately my new favorite... well tied with Cleric. The only PRC i would consider is WarMind, but thats because it fits my build of taking maximum advantage of Expansion and Sweeping Strike. Expanded Knowledge lets you grab a blasty power and grab Wis boosting items (or Animal Affinity, really) and you'll be blasting with the best of them. Otherwise you'll be doing just fine with combat.
Scion of Coldshard 03-16-07, 12:16 AM	psychic warrior is great! although I do increase their base pp's to (base+1)*1.5. I find it works out a lot better that way.
taylors005 03-16-07, 02:07 AM	I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior. It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that other
calronmoonflower 03-16-07, 02:31 AM	VARIANT FIGHTER: PSYCHIC FIGHTER A psychic fighter combines combat prowess with psychic abilities to become an unparalleled engine of destruction. Class Features - Skills: Add Concentration - Bonus feats: At 1st level a psychic fighter gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. Those that already have power points may take Psionic Talent instead. At 2nd level and every other level there after, they gain either a bonus feat from the fighters list or a psionic feat. They cannot gain feats that require levels of fighter unless they meet the minimum level requirements. This replaces a fighter’s normal bonus feats progression.
TheAnthroDM 03-16-07, 02:32 AM	I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior. It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that otherSince when is a cleric or psychic warrior a non-combatant? Just wondering. :confused:
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:21 AM	I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior. It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that other Y'know, 1:1 BAB really kind of sucks when you compare it to buff spells, at least if you have good enough access to the right buffs. Clerics and Psychic Warriors are so much better at fighting than Fighters (at least core-only Fighters) it's not even funny. Giving Clerics full BAB would only serve to add insult to injury.
Fireclave 03-16-07, 03:44 AM	I didn't mean to insult any one by asking for a real psychic warrior. It's that i don't play clerics or non-combatants. i want a character that has a 1:1 BAB and is secondary with other abilities like casting, manifesting, and all that other So...assuming by "noncombantant" you mean "wis/sor", you want a melee fighter with full bab and secodary spellcasting? Sounds like you want to play a ranger, paladin, warmage, or duskblade. Though the psywar, as is, would meet your martial needs as well. So would the wilder, bard, cleric, and druid. Full bab is over rated.
serow_#R 03-16-07, 07:56 AM	Give the current psy-war a run through before deciding to change it. It's really much more versatile than you think!
Shado 03-16-07, 11:59 AM	If BAB is so important, just PrC to Slayer. You end up with BAB of 17 and a ML of 19 with a PW 11/Slayer 9 build.
Kanachi 03-16-07, 12:33 PM	Or throw some ghost breaker levels in there if you really want to get your bab up without sacrificing your ML. As has been said though full bab is over-rated… don’t forget that numerous powers exist that can really help you buff up your bab with little cost (precognition, offence for starters). Psi-warriors have some fantastic flavour and are probably my favourite melee class.
RadicalTaoist 03-16-07, 03:42 PM	A few notes: The Psychic Warrior is nowhere near the Cleric in power. This is a good thing. The Cleric is mad broken. The Psychic Warrior is probably the most balanced class in D&D 3.5 right now
taylors005 03-16-07, 04:19 PM	i just want a variant, not all of you telling me how great the class is already. If you want to post about how great the Psy-War class is or tell me how wrong and over powered the Cleric is go post somewhere else i just want an over abundant knowledge on variant rules other people think of so i can figure out how balanced my creations are in comparison. i personally hate non druid or ranger divine casters especially clerics, devout classes again clerics, and most arcane classes. i know i need them to survive, but i wont be them i want a class i will play; mostly 1 class: +1BAB
Tempest Stormwind 03-16-07, 04:28 PM	The only published full-base-attack manifester is Untapped Potential's Marksman. It has power points comparable to the psychic rogue and a power list comparable to, but slightly less varied, the psychic warrior's list. The marksman does, however, have a few unique class features. Look, why do you insist on full base attack? Every reason for choosing it over a medium base attack class can be handled by the psychic warrior's power list. For that reason -- the LIST, not the points -- the psywar with full base attack would be overpowered.
DarknessEternal 03-16-07, 04:29 PM	Good base attack is worthless compared to medium base attack and Psychic Warrior powers. The Psychic Warrior is much more of a warrior than your idea could ever hope for.
taylors005 03-16-07, 04:43 PM	i don't care any more i know my class isn't as powerful as the true Psychic Warrior that was the point. when you sacrifice a really good thing and replace it with something not as good (or really bad)... guess what happens??? i want a class more on a fighter flavor than over powered clerical badassness. what is this book you have spoken of Untapped Potential? and this Marksman class?
Red12 03-16-07, 05:00 PM	Untapped Potential is published by Dreamscarred Press. Google it. Its a quality psionic supplement. The Marksman is a Full-BAB class that has some psionic powers. It does, however, focus on ranged combat. (exclusively). The thing is, taylor, is that the Psychic warrior is THE warrior class for psionic games. It doesn't have full BAB, its true- but thems the breaks. It doesn't need to have full BAB. (however, with the advent of the duskblade, you could make a case against that). So when you say you want a psionic fighter type character, the best and cleanest option IS the psychic warrior, so everyone is going to sing praises to you about it.
JulesCARV 03-16-07, 05:46 PM	How 'bout this: -You get full BAB -You gain effective levels of psychic warrior manifesting only on levels in which you don't gain a bonus feat i.e., you gain your first power and your power point reserve at level 3, after not being a manifester for levels 1 and 2. You gain psywar levels on levels 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, and 19. There. Now you end up from a "level 20" perspective with 12 powers known, 12 manifester levels, 4th level powers, full base attack bonus, and nice bonus feats. Compared to a fighter, you're downgrading hit dice from d10 to d8, lose access to special fighter-only feats, lose 3 fighter bonus feats, and lose tower shield proficiency, but gain 60% psychic warrior manifesting. As a variant, this cannot be multiclassed with psychic warrior.
The_Shaman 03-16-07, 10:04 PM	Or you could go into PrCs. A pity, I suppose, but if you want less manifesting and more smackdown, it's an option. A fighter4/PWar 4 is a good jumping board for various PrCs and hence builds.
myusernameis 03-16-07, 10:29 PM	You my friend, need to play a warmind, go the prestige class section.
kelvinaw273 03-17-07, 11:08 AM	There is a good reason no psionic class has full BAB, and it has to do with balance. While Duskblades may have full BAB, as do Hexblades, Rangers and Paladins, their spells have limitations that psychic warrior powers don't - they usually have to have a hand free to cast, they have to speak, and they often need a focus or material componant. Psionic powers don't need any of those things. A psychic warrior can use his powers tied up, gagged and stripped. None of these can.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-17-07, 09:17 PM	There is a good reason no psionic class has full BAB, and it has to do with balance. While Duskblades may have full BAB, as do Hexblades, Rangers and Paladins, their spells have limitations that psychic warrior powers don't - they usually have to have a hand free to cast, they have to speak, and they often need a focus or material componant. Psionic powers don't need any of those things. A psychic warrior can use his powers tied up, gagged and stripped. None of these can. Psychic warriors can also manifest level 6 powers at full manifester level...
Scion of Coldshard 03-17-07, 10:03 PM	psychic warrior vs duskblade. Interesting. Psychic warrior at level 20: 20d8 hp, BAB +15, F+12, R+6, W+6, 127 base pp, 20 powers known, access to 6th level powers, 20th manifester level, 8 bonus feats Duskblade at level 20: 20d8 hp, BAB +20, F+12, R+6, W+12, base spells (6 0th, 10 1st, 10 2nd, 10 3rd, 8 4th, 6 5th), 23+starting(? maybe not) int bonus spells known, access to 5th level spells, 20th caster level, arcane attunement, armored mage (light, light shield, medium, heavy shield), combat casting, arcane channeling (standard or full-attack), quick cast 4/day, spell power +5 Both have mostly offensive abilities but the psychic warrior has more defensive ones than the duskblade. Ignoring the difference in choices for powers and spells for the moment. Trade in the 8 bonus feats for +5 BAB, +6 Will, 76 more pp base equivalent (The spells to pp equivalency gives 203 (0th = 1/2), this neglects free scaling), the ability to attack and use an offensive spell, free quicken a very limited number of times per day, and a better ability to penetrate SR. Tough call. There are some 'very' good offensive spells on the duskblade list after all and some intersting buffs (such as +4 deflection +sonic damage to attacker along with potential knockback when they hit you). With my normal fix the duskblade is still ahead by an effective 11 pp's without taking scaling into account. So, are the extra buffs and utilities plus custamizeability of the psychic warrior equivalent overall to the extras of the duskblade? Tough question. Edit: Just took a look at level 1 instead of level 20. wow psychic warrior: d8 hd, BAB +0, F+2, R+0, W+0, 0 base pp, 1 power known, access to 1st level powers, 1st manifester level, 1 bonus feat duskblade: d8 hd, BAB +1, F+2, R+0, W+2, base spells (3 0th, 2 1st), 4+starting(? maybe not) int bonus spells known, access to 0th and 1st level spells, 1st caster level, arcane attunement, armored mage (light, light shield) I would say that the duskblade is nicely ahead combat wise at this point and I am not sure if he is all that behind in any other areas.
kelvinaw273 03-18-07, 01:15 PM	I would say that the duskblade is nicely ahead combat wise at this point and I am not sure if he is all that behind in any other areas. Armour. The Psychic Warrior has any armour, all but tower shield if I recall correctly. That makes a big diference at 1st level - the duskblade might have +1 BAB, but the PsyWar has several AC points advantage.
JulesCARV 03-18-07, 01:22 PM	At level 1, you can't really afford much better armor than light anyway. I mean, if the duskblade is rich enough to afford a chain shirt, the psychic warrior is, at best, wearing chainmail or breastplate. If the duskblade can only afford studded leather, the psychic warrior has scale mail at best. This is a difference of 1 AC. Not totally insignificant, but then neither is +1 base attack bonus, not to mention that if the psychic warrior is in scale or chainmail, he'll be slower than the duskblade (barring racial speed differences). UPDATE: Most people prefer using two-handed weapons, but if they both decide to go for a one-hander-and-shield route, then the difference between the duskblade's buckler or light shield and the psychic warrior's heavy shield is another +1 AC for the psychic warrior. Theoretically, a psychic warrior with a lot of first-level wealth sinking almost all of it into armor could afford splint armor. That's only better than chainmail, though, if he has 11 or lower dexterity.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-18-07, 03:57 PM	Ardent 4 / +1BAB 2 / Storm-ish PrC 4 / Slayer 10 BAB +19 , -Fester level 20 with Practised Manifester , full 8+9s via feat cherry picking. shhh ... don't get recharge going m'cuz thats 'bork-ny'. Not quite as good as a Cleric with Miracle and DivinePower. The King of Smack is linked around here somewhere :)
Scion of Coldshard 03-18-07, 04:41 PM	Armour. The Psychic Warrior has any armour, all but tower shield if I recall correctly. That makes a big diference at 1st level - the duskblade might have +1 BAB, but the PsyWar has several AC points advantage. JulesCARV already went into it but wealth is definately a factor here. The average psychic warrior starts off with 125gp while the average duskblade starts off with 150gp. Neither can get very high on the armor chart without seriously impacting other gear choices. Plus going for a medium armor really reduces mobility and at this low of a level there are not many ways around that. Mounts are expensive, magical items are really expensive, and spells/powers are not long enough lasting yet to be counted on. So that mobility hit will hurt, especially if you are trading in mobility for one point of AC. A chain shirt (100), longsword (15gp), light shield (3gp or 9gp) totals up to 118 or 124. The psychic warrior would have either 7 or 1 gp remaining while the duskblade would have either 32 or 26 gp remaining. Same AC for both, same movement. A scale mail (50gp), longsword (15gp), heavy shield (7gp or 20gp) totals up to 72 or 85 gp. The total AC bonus is 2 higher but the speed is lower and the armor check penalty is higher. A lot less gold spent though, so the psychic warrior could go this route. I would personally hate the loss in movement though. So, 2 points of AC for a few levels at the cost of movement and some skills. I think my comment still stands ;)