Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magus_Darksoul 07-11-07, 01:44 PM	Hello All, First off I would like to say I love the psionic system and the flavor presented in it. I unfortunatly I have have a problem with the balance of the system. Ok let me start from the begining. I started a new character (my last one was a sorcerer(1)/wizard(4)/Ultimate Magus(1). I have played him since the beginning and just grew tired with never having the right spell ready at the right moment. So I started a Human Psion(5)/Fighter(1), who is a kineticist. I new something was going to be wrong when i got this giddy feeling when I was creating him. Here is a lowdown of him: STR 18 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 19 (20 with item) WIS 13 CHA 8 (we use 85 points to spend when creating a character) 65 HP +9 attack with a +1 maul 22 AC in +1 full plate and +1 heavy shield +8 Fort +1 Ref +5 Will 7 skill points / level (max concentration, and lots of knowledges) 40 power points 16 base save DC (has a feat that is the same as spellcasting prodigy) Feats: Psionic Body, Psionic Prodigy, Practised Manifester, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus: Maul, Expanded Knowledge: Dimension Hop, Expanded Knowledge: Hustle, Psionic Meditation (We are allowed to trade one weapon group (unearth arcana) or armor proficiency for a feat) Psionics: 1st - Dimension Hop, Precog: Offense & Defense, Mind Thrust, Vigor, Deflection Field 2nd - Hustle, Energy Missile, Levitate, Damp Power, Energy Emanation 3rd - Touchsight, Telekinetic Thrust I tried to make him well rounded in melee, ranged, burst, and utility. So here in lies the problem. My GM introduced my new character who was a thrall under the control of a villian character. What I found is that my psionic character has an answer to everything the other players could do. One of the players is a book of nine swords warblade, the other is a ranger/druid, my wizard, and a favored soul archer/healbot. I honestly believe that if my friends did not metagame and know what my character was going to do I could kill 2-4 of them before I fell. I understand that encounters are balanced on a 4/day scale, but how do I encourage psionics in our campaign when I can take out half the party before I am even out of spell power, let alone my 1d10+2d6+4 damage I can do every round in melee combat. Not to mention my GM rarely has the 4 encounters per day. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Magus
Scion of Coldshard 07-11-07, 02:09 PM	Well, first off, getting the jump on unsuspecting people is a huge boost in this system. Next up, I am guessing you would try to kill them with energy missile. Manifester level 6 gives 6d6+6 fire or cold damage with the save DC for it being 21 reflex or fort, respectively. (10 +5 int +2 base +3 extra pp +1 feat) That is 27 damage on a failed save. The warblade could fail both saves, unlikely, and still be up. The ranger/druid would likely still be up with one success and one failure. I dont have my book with me to look up the favored soul and see when they get their energy resistance and what kind it is, but if it is not applicable is likely in the same boat as the ranger/druid. Assuming that you get a surprise round (likely) then you could blast them up to twice before they could likely do much to you. How are you getting your hp anyway? Assuming that fighter was first: 10+5*2.5+4*6=46.5. Psionic body will net you 10 hp it looks like (if I recall properly practiced manifester was not psionic and psionic prodigy is made up so I will assume it is not) for 56.5 hp (if practiced manifester and psionic prodigy are assumed to be psionic you are still only up to 60.5). A couple of good rolls could make up for it of course, just trying to get it straight. Since they are likely as decked out as you are I would assume that all 3 of them would still be standing even after two blasts, the warblade would be able to knock off at least half of your hp with a variety of builds, the ranger/druid I dont know how it is built but getting at least a quarter is far from unlikely, and the favored soul might be able to handle the rest or pop up some energy resistance, healing, or some other spell. All of that sounds about right for a surprise situation from a prepared foe in pretty optimal circumstances.
Nephlite 07-11-07, 02:15 PM	Hello All, First off I would like to say I love the psionic system and the flavor presented in it. I unfortunatly I have have a problem with the balance of the system. Ok let me start from the begining. I started a new character (my last one was a sorcerer(1)/wizard(4)/Ultimate Magus(1). I have played him since the beginning and just grew tired with never having the right spell ready at the right moment. So I started a Human Psion(5)/Fighter(1), who is a kineticist. I new something was going to be wrong when i got this giddy feeling when I was creating him. Here is a lowdown of him: STR 18 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 19 (20 with item) WIS 13 CHA 8 (we use 85 points to spend when creating a character) 85 point buy otr total stat amount? 40 power points 16 base save DC (has a feat that is the same as spellcasting prodigy) You shouldn't create houseruled feats if you want to show balance. As there is no Manifesting priodigy: you must have created it. Thus you houseruled it. I tried to make him well rounded in melee, ranged, burst, and utility. So here in lies the problem. My GM introduced my new character who was a thrall under the control of a villian character. What I found is that my psionic character has an answer to everything the other players could do. One of the players is a book of nine swords warblade, the other is a ranger/druid, my wizard, and a favored soul archer/healbot. I honestly believe that if my friends did not metagame and know what my character was going to do I could kill 2-4 of them before I fell. I understand that encounters are balanced on a 4/day scale, but how do I encourage psionics in our campaign when I can take out half the party before I am even out of spell power, let alone my 1d10+2d6+4 damage I can do every round in melee combat. Not to mention my GM rarely has the 4 encounters per day. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Magus AC: Okay not great. But 22 will do. Every round? Oh, 1/round Psionic weapon? But only 1 attack so evens out. Damage: 16.5, okay. With +9 hit. Good AC at level 6 is 24 AC so need a 15 or more. You could do better with a Duskblade in damage if not 4/encounters per day. Heck, most Fighters deal by level 6: 2d6 +[1.5x PA (power attack) = up to 12 damage and 100%= 24] + 1.5 Str (+4 is +6=37 damage with HitL +2 charge + 18 Str so +4= +6 hit. That isn't counting Weapon focus to hit or anything or a magic weapon. So your damage is decent but nothing amazing unbuffed. Requires: Power attack, leap attack only two feats with a 2 hander. Why Mind Thrust? Will/negate is pretty iffy.
Bacris 07-11-07, 02:17 PM	Allowing a manifester to blow through all his power points in one combat is asking for trouble anyway. I'd recommend using the recommendation in Complete Psionic - only allow the character to use half his power points.
Magus_Darksoul 07-11-07, 02:55 PM	Thanks for the reply guys, First up, Nephlite - while I agree house rules that have no president should not be used to show power level comparisons, this is a direct copy of the spellcasting one named spellcasting prodigy. We use a flat up 85 points system, it is not point by at all, but seeing as all the other players have the same system it is an irrelevent argument. While I admit my melee damage is nothing fantastic it is a fallback for when I am out of PP. Ideally I would not be in melee unless absolutly necessary. The reason for Mind Thrust. DC 19 will save... very few monsters let alone players can say with certainty they can make that save. My char has +5... that means 65% of the time my psion would fail that save taking 6d10 damage. I feel that is justified. Scion of Coldshard - I was not including a suprise round in my combat, simply stating that the players we not prepaired in terms of precast buffs or magic items. Energy missile would be for the first round of combat as an opener while they close distance. As soon as any of the melee machines got relativly close I would telekinetic thrust one of them 60ft (or as far as possible), his weapon (into another character), and if the other melee character was within 10ft i would thrust his weapon away too. It is hard to deal melee damage when you are neither in melee or have a proper melee weapon (+1 weapon of you focus vs. a basic greatclub). Psionic Prodigy and Practiced Manifester are both Psionic feats. Good rolls on hit points has put me at 65. Bacris - Thanks for the recommendation, I will look into that as a possible solution. The reason I feel that I could take on all my teammates is that while my 22 armor class is not spectacular I can swift action a +4 deflection bonus each round. As a player my first priority would be to kill the wizard (my main threat). Once he is down I would force one of the melee characters away and burst DPS the other one. Like I said I dont know if I could kill them all, but I feel I would have a very good chance to at least kill two and potentially escape.
rilem 07-11-07, 03:09 PM	If you're not assuming, I'm not sure you'll survive the round. Your initiative is pretty poor and there's a solid chance you'll go low in the order, perhaps even last. Your standard-action attack is probably subpar to the Warblade's, and the others — though they seem a poorly designed crew, on balance — could put enough hurt on you that sticking it out toe-to-toe is a bad option for you. On mind thrust — I don't see overchannel, and your ML is 5 so your Max damage is 5d10. (RAW, I haven't seen a ruling that allows Practiced Manifester to boost the power-point cap. You may THINK it works this way, and you may be right, but there's another house-rule. And the DC is 17 — 10 + 1 Power Level + 2 (augmentation) + 4 ability. By the way, nothing here is in any way specific to psionics. Starting in a level or two, a properly built divine or arcane caster would probably be able to eliminate a significant number of partymates, assuming they win initiative.
Magus_Darksoul 07-11-07, 03:19 PM	Thanks for the Reply Rilem, So for we have had little in the way of problems balance wise in our group, very good skill, ability and damage type coverage. I can cast as a 6th level manifester because of the practised manifester feat (+4 manifester levels up to a max of your HD). Additionally my save DC is 10 + 5 (20 int) + 3 (augmented mind thrust) + 1 (psionic prodigy house rule feat). I agree with you that until I could thin the ranks melee combat would be a bad option. But our warblade would still need a 15 I believe in order to hit me with my 26 AC, that is quite a high miss chance, the druid and favored soul would be even worse. I should point out that my GM introduced this character with another level 7 character psion(5)/illithid prestige class(2) (cant remember the name) and both my psion character and this other guy were on top of a 10 foot ledge with a 40-50 run towards it and stairs on either side. So basically in this battleground the two psions had the tactical advantage. But even without the other psion I still think my guy would pummel my teammates. I might actually have to try it out just to see if the view on psionics is what we think it is (my other players all think my guys is over powered too). Thanks, Magus
Fafnir 07-11-07, 03:22 PM	On mind thrust — I don't see overchannel, and your ML is 5 so your Max damage is 5d10. (RAW, I haven't seen a ruling that allows Practiced Manifester to boost the power-point cap. You may THINK it works this way, and you may be right, but there's another house-rule. The power point cap is equal to your manifester level. Practiced manifester raises your ML. This means: 1) Higher PP cap. 2) Higher ML-dependant values like power duration. 3) Additional bonus PP. :teach:
rilem 07-11-07, 04:08 PM	You said the Psionic Prodigy was a direct copy of the Spellcasting Prodigy. The Spellcasting Prodigy feat no longer provides a DC bonus. I missed the ability mod, though. (I'm still not keen on Mind Thrust, as too many things are outright immune, but it is decent damage to the living). I'd need to see the stats on the Warblade, but I think he'd be a pretty good match for you. The problem with the rest is just that you've got 3rd level spells and they probably don't. But that's their fault, not yours, and it's certainly not a problem with psionics that somebody multiclassed Druid with Ranger.
rilem 07-11-07, 04:08 PM	The power point cap is equal to your manifester level. Practiced manifester raises your ML. This means: 1) Higher PP cap. 2) Higher ML-dependant values like power duration. 3) Additional bonus PP. :teach: I've read the feat. I know what it says — and what it doesn't say. It's pretty specific about what it does. Everything else is conjecture. Maybe it's conjecture that makes sense, but still conjecture. Regardless, it's sorta tangental to this subject.
Scion of Coldshard 07-11-07, 04:21 PM	Scion of Coldshard - I was not including a suprise round in my combat, simply stating that the players we not prepaired in terms of precast buffs or magic items. Energy missile would be for the first round of combat as an opener while they close distance. As soon as any of the melee machines got relativly close I would telekinetic thrust one of them 60ft (or as far as possible), his weapon (into another character), and if the other melee character was within 10ft i would thrust his weapon away too. It is hard to deal melee damage when you are neither in melee or have a proper melee weapon (+1 weapon of you focus vs. a basic greatclub). Psionic Prodigy and Practiced Manifester are both Psionic feats. Good rolls on hit points has put me at 65. Will save to negate the telekinetic thrust, readied actions to disrupt your manifestation, spells, ranged attacks, and other such things.. If you really were to go up against your party in such a way and did not get the surprise round for whatever reason then you would likely lose very rapidly. You might get to take one or more with you but I think the only way to make that likely is with the surprise round. Likely even the party wizard would survive one blast by the energy missile and once you have shown yourself to be hostile 4 actions vs your one action is going to take you out incredibly quickly.
Scion of Coldshard 07-11-07, 04:23 PM	I've read the feat. I know what it says — and what it doesn't say. It's pretty specific about what it does. Everything else is conjecture. Maybe it's conjecture that makes sense, but still conjecture. Regardless, it's sorta tangental to this subject. Tangential yes, but important anyway. Practiced manifester actually changes your manifester level and as such everything that changes with it also changes. That means that you can put extra pp into your powers, because your pp limit is your manifester level.. which has just been increased ;)
CrimsonDeath 07-11-07, 04:26 PM	I've read the feat. I know what it says — and what it doesn't say. It's pretty specific about what it does. Everything else is conjecture. Maybe it's conjecture that makes sense, but still conjecture. Regardless, it's sorta tangental to this subject. What the feat does is raise your Manifester Level. The three things Fafnir mentioned are not effects of the feat. They are effects of an increased Manifester Level. For Practiced Manifester not to do any of those things, it would need to specifically say that it doesn't.
Bacris 07-11-07, 04:41 PM	I've read the feat. I know what it says — and what it doesn't say. It's pretty specific about what it does. Everything else is conjecture. Maybe it's conjecture that makes sense, but still conjecture. Regardless, it's sorta tangental to this subject. You may have read the feat, but I'm not sure you know what it does ;) It raises your manifester level - it doesn't say "only for x" - ergo, for all effects based on ML, your ML is higher - this includes augmentation, metapsionics, duration, power resistance, bonus power points, range, dispel attempts, etc. Assuming that because it doesn't say "raises your manifester level, thereby increasing [all of the above]" is a bit silly, IMNSHO.
rilem 07-11-07, 04:42 PM	That four-actions-to-one is the big deal, I agree. And as noted, your Initiative is poor, so the Archer, Wizard and Warblade are probably going to have better Init mods than you. Unless they're all REALLY poorly designed, they'll win. If the feat didn't say what it applied to — power resistance, duration, etc. — that'd be true. The fact that it specifically does include those things, and didn't include any of the more important factors of manifester level, suggests that either they didn't want to change those factors or simply never thought about it. Either one's possible. Is this theory conjecture as well? Sure.
Magus_Darksoul 07-11-07, 04:45 PM	Thank for the replies guys, My wizard only has 22 hit points thanks to several rolls of 1 :weep: Chances are the wizard would survive a single energy missile, but there is a chance I could kill him outright (which honestly isnt hard since he only has 22 HP). I think the point I am trying to make here is I have 1 less hit point then our warblade (who actually has a few levels of rogue), more skill points then the wizard (who is not human, but otherwise same Int), 1 less attack bonus then the favored soul/druid/warblade-hybrid, more damage output then the wizard... I just find psionics to be very powerful when taken from a single encounter persective (even though there should be 4 encounters per day). Unfortunatly my friends look at that and go, your guy is way too powerful (which I feel he is by the giddy feeling in my stomach and my contstant search for new creative ways to use his powers). Like someone else mentioned, if you have 8 encounters in a day all CR-2 the fighter is going to look and feel powerful, while the casters are going to be tired, drained, and possibly dead. The thing is, when this character is out of juice (assuming he has 1PP left) he can keep swinging and deal as much damage as the rest of the melee'rs. One thing I will say is that my character definatly feels more optimized then the rest of the crew (warblade/rogue, ranger/druid, sorcerer/wizard, favored soul) which may be lending towards this biased view point. If the wizard was a 6th warmage or damage focused sorcerer, the warblade was full warblade (two attacks per round) and the druid was... well... anything else :) it might feel different. Thanks, Magus
rilem 07-11-07, 04:50 PM	... One thing I will say is that my character definatly feels more optimized then the rest of the crew (warblade/rogue, ranger/druid, sorcerer/wizard, favored soul) ... He is. You've specialized. They haven't. (Well, you didn't either, in the Ultimate Magus case, which is at a particularly weak point in his career). But four sucky PCs can still put the hurt on one optimized one. If the wizard was a 6th warmage or damage focused sorcerer, the warblade was full warblade (two attacks per round) and the druid was... well... anything else If the Druid was a Druid, you mean. And yes, it'd feel a LOT different.
Magus_Darksoul 07-11-07, 04:51 PM	One other thing that just pop'd to mind is that I dont have any crowd controlling powers. I shy away from them as the GM has a tendency to always fudge his saving throws whenever one of his monsters is taken out of a fight. I am sure if I looked I could find a decent crowd control power that would take the warblade out of the fight (he only has +1 will). Dead wizard + CC'd heavy hitter = 2 on one. With those odds I think the archer and the druid would be psionic fodder. Like I said before, even though they have 4 actions to my 1, my 26 AC means that the druid hits on a 15+, warblade 14+(i think) and the archer 15+. That is roughly a 25% chance each of them would hit me, which puts me more on a 1-to-1 ratio (and my powers never miss, only save for half).
rilem 07-11-07, 04:58 PM	I am sure if I looked I could find a decent crowd control power that would take the warblade out of the fight (he only has +1 will). You might, and here's where specialization rears its head again. Any self-respecting Warblade6 will have Iron Heart Surge, which negates such tactics. Will +1? I think I'm starting to root for you. Somebody needs to teach these guys a lesson.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 05:01 PM	We use a flat up 85 points system, it is not point by at all, but seeing as all the other players have the same system it is an irrelevent argument. Its not an irrelevant argument. Flat point buy favors characters that need multiple high stats and can stand low stats. Standard point buy only allows several mediocre stats or one high stat. Since you're a fighter/psion, your character is clearly favored by a flat point buy system. On a different note, there already IS a thread about how Psionics is stronger in single encounters and weaker across a day. If they don't like you playing a psion, go the opposite end of the spectrum and play a warlock (low power, but effectively infinite encounter endurance) and see what they say.
UCsimplyme 07-11-07, 05:19 PM	I think the point I am trying to make here is I have 1 less hit point then our warblade (who actually has a few levels of rogue), more skill points then the wizard (who is not human, but otherwise same Int), 1 less attack bonus then the favored soul/druid/warblade-hybrid, more damage output then the wizard... I just find psionics to be very powerful when taken from a single encounter persective (even though there should be 4 encounters per day). What can your build do that a Wizard or Sorcerer 6 can't? When you compare your BAB and hps a Wiz/Sorc 6 is going to have the same BaB (+3) as your Wiz5/Fighter 1, have 3rd level spells and only be short 3 less hit points as you (assuming they are taking all of the same types of hp feats are you). The fact that you have the same hit points as the Warblade/Rogue only tells me that the Warblade has a poor Con. You can cast in armor but so can a cleric or druid of your level. I just don't see the difference. A pure wizard would school you. Btw, how are you wielding a maul one handed?
lears_fool 07-11-07, 05:37 PM	I'm really not seeing any of this as unbalanced. You have a character that's well rounded and flexible with solid potential to 'nova' If you switch roles with another character they also have abilities that can really put the hurt on a party. Just imagine the mess a summoning druid could make in the same situation :) Trust me, tossing someone against the party alongside a BBEG in combat is a very bad way to indicate effective party balance.
Scion of Coldshard 07-11-07, 05:49 PM	I should point out that my GM introduced this character with another level 7 character psion(5)/illithid prestige class(2) (cant remember the name) I think there was another illithiad prc of some sort in complete psionic.. but just in case this is the illthiad slayer prc a psion 5 does not meet the prereqs to enter it. and both my psion character and this other guy were on top of a 10 foot ledge with a 40-50 run towards it and stairs on either side. So basically in this battleground the two psions had the tactical advantage. Hmm.. 7th level means 4th level spells.. pair of casters in a section like this... Caster 1: Evards black tentacles Caster 2: Solid fog Next round: Ready actions in cast any party members actually get out. In a few minutes, collect your new loot ;)
Magus_Darksoul 07-11-07, 06:15 PM	Thanks for the replies all, UCsimplyme - While I first hand know how powerful wizards can be, I would like to point out that a fighter(1)/wizard(5) does not have nearly the same synergy as a fighter/psion. I can wear full plate and wield a shield all the time. While a wizard can have mage armor on with an extend spell, that is only +4 armor that does not get enhancement bonuses like armor does. Likewise the wizard has to spend 1 round casting shield in combat which is a waste of your turn in my oppinion. Sure there other defensive spells that are better such as mirror image (which will get removed as soon as I shoot 5 energy missiles at him, which is one casting), or blur which (correct me if I am wrong) irrelevent when it is a saving throw, not an attack roll. My 26 armor class each round really shines compaired to a mage/fighter with 18'ish base and wasting a round to turn it into a 22. Mauls can be wielded one handed if you have the exotic proficiency in them, which my character does since we are using the UA weapon groups. zorgling25 - it is irrelevent since all the other characters in the party are a hybrid of some kind, ranger/druid (focus on spellcasting and melee), rogue/warblade (focus on melee and skills), favored soul (focused on ranged and spellcasting), sorcerer/wizard (focus on dex, int, and cha), psion/fighter (focus on power DC's & PP, melee combat, and high hit points). We all require several high stats which means it does not factor into the equation. If we all had low stats I would still wallop them as the also would have low stats spread around just like me. Scion of Coldshard - Nah wasnt the Illithid slayer (he had the ability to shoot an illithids mind blast). That brings up another point though... The illithid slayer would make this build even more deadly as I would get D8's instead of D4's, full base attack bonus, 4 skill points per level (and decent skills), 9/10 manifester progression, and some other nice powers. You will notice no track feat on my character because as soon as I read this prestige class I know if I took it I wouldn't even get approval of my character (which was hard enough as it is) rilem - Iron heart surge was going to be his next power, which is exactly what he said when he was hit with the illithid mind blast that knocked him out of the encounter for 4 rounds :( Again my big thing is that the traditional "4 encounters per day" does not apply to me like all the pure class psions as I am able to deal out decent/good melee damage as well. So if I go light when we are fighting "trash" encounters and whenever there is a moderate threat I can go nova. This allows me to mix and match every encounter. When fighting my team I can nova and hope to kill them all. If I survive I still have decent to good melee skills to kill all the goons on my way home. Thanks, Magus
Nite_shade 07-11-07, 09:59 PM	Automatically discounting everything the rest of the possible day as "goons" is simply metagaming (which you assume in your first post your compatriots will not engage in). Any number of obstacles could happen between you slaying your companions and the next day. A cave-in, inclement weather, bounty hunters, wild animal/monster packs. Will your character, IN-GAME, really be willing to expend nearly all of his points on a nova when literally anything could happen, potentially leading to his death? The concept of a nova in-and-of itself is, in my opinion, almost always a metagame choice. You know this is "it", - the - fight of the day, and once it's over you'll be able to go and have a nice day in the local inn.
zuul88 07-12-07, 12:01 AM	Well like always there are a bunch of idiots Word Vomiting!!! I dont need to name names you just read thier "I'm a idiot so let me write something" post. To the OP yeah you probably could take out a couple party members before you are taken out. This is not because you are so awesome(4 Psion/2 Fighter would get you into slayer next level if you burned a feat for track which you obvisily could.) But because you party is NON_OPTIMIZED did they do this on purpose? Well maybe there is reasons for it(Ranger/Druid has me baffled, Warblade/Rogue I cant comment because I dont know enough about ToB.) So try it out, I says that a suprise round is where one group knows their fighting and the other doesnt right. Manifest with no display you should have the concentration check easily. You know you are doing it, do they? Be nice friendly and then blast them when they are talking to you. Your wearing Full-Plate with an sheathed maul that seems Melee to me UNTIL you unload on them. NOVA!!!!! You are a thrall and you were told to kill them, so do your best. Couple questions do you have dorjes or powerstones to get you those mindcontroling or battlefield controling powers?? Respect Nathan
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:04 AM	Thanks for the reply Nite_shade, To a certain extend I would agree with you, but if you follow that logic it is reasonable to say that A wizard is metagaming to use his one and only fireball spell this day on a group of humanoid skeletons, using it on such a lowly threat could result in his death later on in the day. Again, why would the wizard use his only fly spell for the day to get out of a 20ft pit trap? Later on in the day he might need it to save his life against a band of ogres. What you are talking about is a slippery slop of paranoia, where does it stop? at what point is it meta-gaming? Should you have to play your character in fear that every moment from this point on in the day is what could be my death sentence? "A cave-in, inclement weather, bounty hunters, wild animal/monster packs" - Bounty hunters and wild animals my guy would be confident enough to battle in melee. A cave in or inclement weather, honestly these are things my character never considers when walking around and to a certain extent I dont think he would, because if the gods will his dead (aka GM) there is little-to-nothing he can do about it. Thanks, Magus
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:13 AM	Hey zuul88 thanks for the reply, No powerstones or dorjes, as my guys has been outfitted for his purpose as body guard I saw no reason to give these utility items to start (plus i need the cash on other items) :) I really should defend my friends, you see we were trying to make a balanced part so the warblade offered to take a rogue level to have the rogue skills (they are all human and most took able learner). The druid went with a splash of ranger in the beginning because he... you know what, I dont remember why he went ranger anymore... I think there was a purpose :) My wizard had to burn a few feats just to be the face of the group, but these we all sacrifices we made willingly. I should also point out that the favored soul archer is actually played by the group (only 3 of us in our gaming group anymore). As i mentioned before I find the slayer class to be so out of balance that I had to fight ever min/maxing instinct to not take the track feat to begin with :) I agree that it is more then likely a case of optimized vs. non-optimized characters, but how can I justify playing such a character (assuming magically they let me, or should I say psionically) when I can do what most of the other characters can do + more? Thanks, Magus
zorgling25 07-12-07, 12:22 AM	I agree that it is more then likely a case of optimized vs. non-optimized characters, but how can I justify playing such a character (assuming magically they let me, or should I say psionically) when I can do what most of the other characters can do + more? Hardly. You mentioned combat against the party as one thing. "Doing what they can do"? Completely different. For one thing, I can almost guarantee that you're skills-deficient. You can't skills-monkey the way a rogue can. If the rest of the party doesn't powergame, don't do it either is the simple option. Its easier for the DM to craft appropriate encounters if you're on even power levels. Its also more interesting, and hey, you'll be able to roleplay some cool characters that aren't dictated by fantastic builds.
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:35 AM	Thanks for the reply zorgling25, "how can I justify playing such a character (assuming magically they let me, or should I say psionically) when I can do what most of the other characters can do + more?" - not the bolded word. I never said I could do everything the other characters can do + more. The thing is I did not make this character as a min/maxed character, it is my first psion that I have played. I actually made him to be well-rounded instead of a focuses psion who just goes nuke crazy. So I am honesly not sure how to make a weaker version of a psion. Thanks, Magus
zorgling25 07-12-07, 12:49 AM	Play with the psion a bit. You say that your fighting ability gives you encounter longevity right now. Trust me, if you try to spread out between Psion and Fighter, you're eventually going to hit a point where you'll need to lose one to stay on par in power in the other. This is one reason why the Psychic Warrior class sucks. Your attack bonus and number of attacks will fall way behind fighters if you don't add fighter levels, even though your absurd strength bonus is carrying the day right now. At the same time, falling more than 2 levels behind in powers means that you're effectively a whole spell level behind the rest of the casters. Also notice that while Psions early on can pump their powers much more than other casters, normal casters win out in the long run because their spells will increase in power with level while yours don't (e.g. energy burst vs. fireball). The juggling act seems easy early on, but just give it a few levels and I think you'll find that the scene will change completely.
Nephlite 07-12-07, 01:56 AM	Play with the psion a bit. You say that your fighting ability gives you encounter longevity right now. Trust me, if you try to spread out between Psion and Fighter, you're eventually going to hit a point where you'll need to lose one to stay on par in power in the other. This is one reason why the Psychic Warrior class sucks. Psychic Warriors don't suck. They get bonus feats and powers to augment their fighting ability (they have sucky amounts of power points though but other than that) Your attack bonus and number of attacks will fall way behind fighters if you don't add fighter levels, even though your absurd strength bonus is carrying the day right now. At the same time, falling more than 2 levels behind in powers means that you're effectively a whole spell level behind the rest of the casters. Also notice that while Psions early on can pump their powers much more than other casters, normal casters win out in the long run because their spells will increase in power with level while yours don't (e.g. energy burst vs. fireball). The juggling act seems easy early on, but just give it a few levels and I think you'll find that the scene will change completely. True. Why did he choose maul/where is the one handed maul in (what book)?
zorgling25 07-12-07, 02:33 AM	Psychic Warriors don't suck. They get bonus feats and powers to augment their fighting ability (they have sucky amounts of power points though but other than that) This is debatable. My biggest issue is that as Psychic WARRIORS they should have a fighter-type BAB, but then we have other balance issues. Either way, its irrelevant to this discussion.
Colmarr 07-12-07, 03:24 AM	The Psion does have an advantage over the other PCs, because it seems none of them have reached a point where they can cast 3rd level spells. If they had, you'd be dealing with the likes of Hold Person, Suggestion, Invisibility Sphere and the usual damage dealing spells. However, I can see at least four 2nd level wizard spells that would give your character serious issues if you failed a save: Summon Swam Tasha's Hideous Laughter Blindness/Deafness Ghoul Touch You will likely get one Energy Missile off before the meleers approach. From that point on you are using Telekinetic Thrust or Energy Missile each round, and are likely only hitting 2 of them at a time. Both powers require the targets to be close to each other. Don't forget that it is a DC 20 Concentration check to attain Psionic Focus. Assuming your last level was in Psion, you Conc check bonus is probably 14 (10 ranks + 4 Con). There is slightly more than a 25% chance that you don't gain your focus and therefore don't get your your +2d6 damage. Notwithstanding the above, this thread has caused me to really look at the psionic rules for the first time, and now I know why I've always refused to play them. They are complete and utter cheese. If anyone suggested a 2nd level wizard spell that inflicted 3d6+3 damage on up to 5 targets, that had no somatic, verbal, or material components, and that could be cast 8 time a day the boards would go beserk.
Bacris 07-12-07, 09:53 AM	This is debatable. My biggest issue is that as Psychic WARRIORS they should have a fighter-type BAB, but then we have other balance issues. Either way, its irrelevant to this discussion. Except by making a statement that the psychic warrior class sucks, you've made it part of the discussion. ;) In my opinion and my experience, the psychic warrior is probably one of the best balanced classes I've seen in a very long time that was created during the "balanced per day" era, rather than the new "balanced per encounter" that was introduced with the ToB style classes. I haven't played around with those enough to say definitively. :)
zorgling25 07-12-07, 11:01 AM	Notwithstanding the above, this thread has caused me to really look at the psionic rules for the first time, and now I know why I've always refused to play them. They are complete and utter cheese. If anyone suggested a 2nd level wizard spell that inflicted 3d6+3 damage on up to 5 targets, that had no somatic, verbal, or material components, and that could be cast 8 time a day the boards would go beserk. There are enough discussions about Psionics being overpowered. They're not. Energy missile can be cast 8 times a day, yes, but to the exclusion of all other powers. Assuming your average psion isn't going to be throwing himself into melee combat, and assuming he can cast, say 3 per encounter, he bottoms out on effectiveness after 2 2/3 encounters, below the average encounter longevity. The best way to deal with it is to look at the most similar Wizard/Sorcerer spell: Scorching Ray. While Scorching Ray has to make a touch attack, and has less range, Scorching Ray does slightly greater average damage, and has no saving throw. At low levels, Scorching Ray seems worse, but by the time you hit level 12, Scorching Ray is clearly the better of the two, on a count of versatility. You can fire 3 rays at any number of targets. Energy Missile can only be fired at the number of targets available. While Scorching Ray has use in any encounter, Energy Missile is only more effective in encounters with more than 3 enemies (and sometimes not even then if they're spaced out), and its use greatly diminishes against fewer enemies.
Mesiolan 07-12-07, 11:09 AM	Notwithstanding the above, this thread has caused me to really look at the psionic rules for the first time, and now I know why I've always refused to play them. They are complete and utter cheese. If anyone suggested a 2nd level wizard spell that inflicted 3d6+3 damage on up to 5 targets, that had no somatic, verbal, or material components, and that could be cast 8 time a day the boards would go beserk. If you "cast" the power 8 times a day, you cannot manifest anything else for the whole day, if you are level 4. At lv. 3 its almost impossible to get 24pp (without burning feats on it). It is one of the strongest powers around, yes. One of those worth taking with Expanded Knowledge, if you are from another discipline. But utter cheese? I like to compare it to Scorching Ray. The kinetikist is better off at low levels (up to 5 close targets for 3d6+3, save for half). At higher levels the Scorching Ray is better against a single target (12d6 = 42 HP) than the EM. A fire EM for 9d6+9 (= 40.5 HP) is augmented to 9pp, or the equivalent of a 5th level spell. I accept, that the EM has several advantages, when added make the power VERY strong: * up to 5 targets, * choose the energy type you like, * medium range * augment to your needs * save for half damage * even fort save if evasion matters * NOT a ranged touch attack, so hurl it into melee * does not provoke AoOs as regular ranged attacks do * no miss chance from concealment * the bonus from cover is less than against a touch attack If you have 3-5 foes lumped together, they are asking for an area attack spell at level 5 and higher. So the power is strongest at levels 3-4, but still very useful at higher levels until energy resistence kicks in. Then it gets very expensive pretty fast. Darn. Zorgling25 beat me to the response.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 11:15 AM	Darn. Zorgling25 beat me to the response. That's ok, yours is probably clearer and more thorough. :D
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:16 PM	Thanks for the replies all, zorgling25 - I understand how trying to maintain two classes can cause each to fall behind, which is what I was hoping for in a sense; to be balanced between the two. But I dont see how you can say I will fall behind. I choose not to go the route of the slayer because I think it is very overpowered, instead we would use the eldritch knight as a direct copy over to a psionic version. Using this PrC I would be Psion(8)/Fighter(2)/Mind Knight(10). THis would give me a 16 BaB (maximum number of melee attacks per round), and 20th level manifester (17th level for the purpose of powers known). I fail to see how this is much of a compromise at all and I am sure I would be able to nova an melee quite well. For melee I would definatly get the expansion power, grow to huge size and with hustle/greater psionic focus I could be dealing 8d6+6 damage (with my maul) on two of my swings (psionic weapon does not require a standard action to use, just the expendature of your psionic focus, therefor my first hit in an attack I could expend my focus, hustle as a swift action to get it back, and do it again on the next swing). This seems far from weak to me and does not include any other damage bonuses of the weapon. Nephlite - The Maul is in the complete warrior, it is exactly the same as a dwarven waraxe, but deals bludgeoning damage. Colmarr - While I agree with you that is my team had immobilizing powers it would make defeating me much easier, but I stated earlier that we seldom if even memorize them as our GM hates to lose control of his mobs. I realize that it requires a DC 20 check to make the psionic focus, but I have a ring of +5 concentration, with a total concentration of +18, so I only fail on a 1 (5% chance) and next level I will not be able to fail at all. Blindness/deafness would only cause me to lose one action as I have touchsight so I would be able to see even when blinded. Once I have level 4 psionics I would have freedom of movement, psionic and then it is a whole new ball game again. I really do love this character, every time I think about how versitile he is and how much control he has over his powers I want to play immediately. I think we will have to come up with a house rule that restricts the amount of power points available each encounter. The half power point NPC varient in the complete psionic is ok, but even having half my power points available to me allows me to nova for roughly 4 rounds which will be the end of most if not all encounters. Perhaps like something I read on the boards (cant remember who or where): You have access to 2x your manifester level in powers points with a reserve equalling the rest. You move a number of power points from your reserve equal to (character level / 5) + 1 at the start of your turn (before you have priority to act). This allows full power nova's for only the first two rounds or if you are more conservative you can slow down your augmentations and not worry about burning out until round 5 or 6. The other option is to use the above rules, but have no "power regeneration" and require them to use a full round action to fill your power points back up. Thanks, Ryan
zorgling25 07-12-07, 12:24 PM	Thanks for the replies all, zorgling25 - I understand how trying to maintain two classes can cause each to fall behind, which is what I was hoping for in a sense; to be balanced between the two. But I dont see how you can say I will fall behind. I choose not to go the route of the slayer because I think it is very overpowered, instead we would use the eldritch knight as a direct copy over to a psionic version. Using this PrC I would be Psion(8)/Fighter(2)/Mind Knight(10). THis would give me a 16 BaB (maximum number of melee attacks per round), and 20th level manifester (17th level for the purpose of powers known). I fail to see how this is much of a compromise at all and I am sure I would be able to nova an melee quite well. For melee I would definatly get the expansion power, grow to huge size and with hustle/greater psionic focus I could be dealing 8d6+6 damage (with my maul) on two of my swings (psionic weapon does not require a standard action to use, just the expendature of your psionic focus, therefor my first hit in an attack I could expend my focus, hustle as a swift action to get it back, and do it again on the next swing). This seems far from weak to me and does not include any other damage bonuses of the weapon. The Slayer has its own problems. It's not technically printed in any WotC print material, only found in the SRD. As such, I would have no qualms as a DM banning it from use. Since you are homebrewing a class, there are no guarantees of it being balanced. The Eldritch Knight is balanced because Arcane casters have worries of Arcane Spell Failure when entering a class that advances fighting and casting. As Psions have no worries about ASF, there is no guarantee that a direct translation will be balanced at all. On the contrary, it has the potential to be quite broken, and since its homebrew, your DM should have no reason to accept it. Barring those two, can you suggest another way that you'd be able to juggle both classes? Also, in terms of damage, I'm not sure where you're getting your damage from. A huge maul deals 3d8 damage, so 2 attacks with psionic weapon deals 3d8+2d6 on the first attack and 3d8 on the 2nd attack (ignoring strength bonuses). If your group chooses not to use some of the best spells/powers in the game, simply because "the DM doesn't like losing control of his mobs," then thats their problem, not yours. With a normal group that doesn't limit its own effectiveness just because the DM doesn't want them using good spells, your character (minus homebrew classes) should be fine.
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:30 PM	Illithid Slayer. I did not mean to suggest the slayer from SRD, but rather the illithid slayer PrC from EPH. While there is the restriction of having slayed an illithid that the DM can use to prevent you from entering this class I still have 4 levels in which i can take psion/fighter before I would need the PrC. 4 levels is enough time to make it my driving goal to kill an illithid. If my driving goal is to find and kill an illithid I will completely derail the current campaign. Thanks, Magus
Fafnir 07-12-07, 12:37 PM	The Maul is in the complete warrior, it is exactly the same as a dwarven waraxe, but deals bludgeoning damage. Yes, but the problem is you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul) so you'd need to use it two-handed. Even if you were a dwarf (mmm... are you? I can't find your race anywhere in your post), you could use the Waraxe one-handed, but not the Maul.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 12:38 PM	I I did not mean to suggest the slayer from SRD, but rather the illithid slayer PrC from EPH. While there is the restriction of having slayed an illithid that the DM can use to prevent you from entering this class I still have 4 levels in which i can take psion/fighter before I would need the PrC. 4 levels is enough time to make it my driving goal to kill an illithid. If my driving goal is to find and kill an illithid I will completely derail the current campaign. If you notice, I made some small edits also, above. If you're roleplaying a character who wants to kill illithids just because out of the game you want to qualify for Illithid Slayer, you are metagaming, plain and simple. Don't do it. Unless you have another explanation, then the fact that you're metagaming makes it obvious you shouldn't be able to do that.
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:38 PM	"Arcane casters have worries of Arcane Spell Failure when entering a class that advances fighting and casting" - This brings up another problem I see in terms of class balance. I understand why psionic characters dont have to worry about ASF since psionics are a mental projection power, but from a balance stand-point I dont understand how they thought this was fair? If I made a pure psion I would have him dressed in +1 full plate and a +1 tower shield so he always had a 25 AC. Why not, other then weight issues? I mean so what if I am non-proficient, a -15 penalty on attack rolls means nothing when all of my powers are save based. Not to mention that psionics dont have verbal, semantic, or material components (or spell book). So basically I am captured and thrown into a cell, I am bound, gagged, and all my items are removed. The rest of my team is likewise restrained including the team wizard. My character uses timehop (which he will have next level) to send his manacles forward in time. Stands up, laughs at the helpless wizard and dimensional hops throught the bars to freedom (afterwards he hops back into the bars and free's everyone). There are so many combat and non-combat advantages to the psion that the more I think about them the less I can even convince myself that they are not overpowered in a 4 encounters / day scenario.
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 12:43 PM	If you notice, I made some small edits also, above. If you're roleplaying a character who wants to kill illithids just because out of the game you want to qualify for Illithid Slayer, you are metagaming, plain and simple. Don't do it. Unless you have another explanation, then the fact that you're metagaming makes it obvious you shouldn't be able to do that. Because my character is metagaming is not a balancing factor to character though zorgling. Regardless what if my characters family was killed by an Illithid and I have a hatred towards them (in this case I would take a ranger level and favored enemy abberations). His driving goal is to find the illithid that killed his family, but he will go out of his way to kill any illithid he can find/track down. This is why metagaming/RP reasons dont work as balancing factors to an overpowered class. If my DM knows this is what my character is all about from the get go and by the time I am level 11 if our party has never found the trail of an illithid I would consider all that my character has worked for as a complete waste of time and that the DM should from the get go said "you cant be that PrC". Instead I could just re-roll my lvl 11 character as a similar character to my last one and have levels of Illithid slayer already.
Fafnir 07-12-07, 12:45 PM	"Arcane casters have worries of Arcane Spell Failure when entering a class that advances fighting and casting" - This brings up another problem I see in terms of class balance. I understand why psionic characters dont have to worry about ASF since psionics are a mental projection power, but from a balance stand-point I dont understand how they thought this was fair? If I made a pure psion I would have him dressed in +1 full plate and a +1 tower shield so he always had a 25 AC. Why not, other then weight issues? I mean so what if I am non-proficient, a -15 penalty on attack rolls means nothing when all of my powers are save based. Not to mention that psionics dont have verbal, semantic, or material components (or spell book). So basically I am captured and thrown into a cell, I am bound, gagged, and all my items are removed. The rest of my team is likewise restrained including the team wizard. My character uses timehop (which he will have next level) to send his manacles forward in time. Stands up, laughs at the helpless wizard and dimensional hops throught the bars to freedom (afterwards he hops back into the bars and free's everyone). There are so many combat and non-combat advantages to the psion that the more I think about them the less I can even convince myself that they are not overpowered in a 4 encounters / day scenario. *Cough*Cough*DivineMagic*Coughcough* :rolleyes: If at all, it's the concept of ASF that makes no sense. Everybody and their mother is ignoring it these days.
RobbyPants 07-12-07, 12:56 PM	I notice you have vigor on your power list. This can be a nice buff before combat. It's too bad you don't have share pain. You could elect to have half the damage dealt to you go to your psicrystal. Plus, it's hardness would negate a good amount of that. Plus, with share powers, your psicrystal would gain the same amount of temp HP that you do for free. So, for 6 PP, you and your psicrystal could gain 30 temp HP.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 12:59 PM	There are so many combat and non-combat advantages to the psion that the more I think about them the less I can even convince myself that they are not overpowered in a 4 encounters / day scenario. The key being YOU can convince YOURSELF You want evidence that Psionics is not overpowered? Twenty-six reasons right here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253). Psionics is one of those things that looks like it works out on paper, but you have to either work out really carefully, or actually play through 20 levels of to realize its not broken. Psionic characters are resonably stronger at earlier levels, but do have a relative drop-off in power as level-variant spells begin to catch up and exceed you in power level. So you have a character you took the time to optimize, and it can beat a party of characters that aren't. So what? A good number of people here could probably optimize a swashbuckler to beat a bunch of un-optimized characters, and yet swashbucklers are still one of the most underpowered classes in the game. Just because you overpower the rest of the party at a given level, especially one as un-optimized as you say yours is does not go to show that psions are broken.
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 01:32 PM	The key being YOU can convince YOURSELF You want evidence that Psionics is not overpowered? Twenty-six reasons right here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253). Psionics is one of those things that looks like it works out on paper, but you have to either work out really carefully, or actually play through 20 levels of to realize its not broken. Psionic characters are resonably stronger at earlier levels, but do have a relative drop-off in power as level-variant spells begin to catch up and exceed you in power level. So you have a character you took the time to optimize, and it can beat a party of characters that aren't. So what? A good number of people here could probably optimize a swashbuckler to beat a bunch of un-optimized characters, and yet swashbucklers are still one of the most underpowered classes in the game. Just because you overpower the rest of the party at a given level, especially one as un-optimized as you say yours is does not go to show that psions are broken. You seem to be taking this as almost a personal attack, as if you were psionics yourself zorgling. I am just trying to understand the class and prove that it is not as overpowered as me and my group thinks it is. I know I could make a much more lethal character then this using core books, but my point is I was NOT trying to make a lethal character, but a balanced all-around character. I did not flip through all the books I have and go, how can I make a powerhouse to decimate my friends. I choose a few melee augmenting psionic power/feats, ranged powers/feats, utility powers, etc... RobbyPants - very interesting use of the share pain power. I totally overlooked it due to its exceptionally crappy range. Definatly makes me think that taking a psicrystal might be more worthwhile then I originally thought. Fafnir - So you are saying most people just disregard Arcane Spell Failure all together? The reason that divine casters dont have this limitation (other then RP reasons) is the divine spell list (especially at lower levels) is far from agressive and is mostly buff/debuff/healing related. On a spell level per spell level basis, divine spells do not stack up to the lethality of arcane ones. Plus all divine characters are champion types (sword and board and plate), not caster types like we see in more video games. Thanks, Magus
zorgling25 07-12-07, 01:40 PM	You seem to be taking this as almost a personal attack, as if you were psionics yourself zorgling. I am just trying to understand the class and prove that it is not as overpowered as me and my group thinks it is. I know I could make a much more lethal character then this using core books, but my point is I was NOT trying to make a lethal character, but a balanced all-around character. I did not flip through all the books I have and go, how can I make a powerhouse to decimate my friends. I choose a few melee augmenting psionic power/feats, ranged powers/feats, utility powers, etc... If I came off as offended or combative, I apologize. That was not my intention. The caps were for emphasis, not for aggression. As I've said before, you currently have a level 6 character and psionics seems overpowered. Play it down the line and see what happens. IMO there really is no need to worry about Psionics being overpowered. Again, its obvious that psionics is going to seem overpowered if the group purposely hinders itself by choosing weaker spells that aren't all that suited to handling this sort of combat. Psionics in general begins to weaken in comparison with arcane/divine spellcasting later on because of level-based benefits that arcane spells get. Play out your character to level 20 and see what happens. Then, if you haven't done so at any time before, play out an arcane caster to level 20 (not an Ultimate Magus, because those have a high probability of sucking if you DON'T try to optimize). I'll be interested in seeing what your opinion is then. And for the record, trying to make your character well-balanced is a form of optimization too.
Scion of Coldshard 07-12-07, 01:42 PM	my point is I was NOT trying to make a lethal character, but a balanced all-around character. So you accidentally went a route that is decently optimizeable, have a few houseruled items which may or may not be overpowered, and put it all together accidentally for something that looks to be about as impressive as a straight classed guy who picked a good selection of abilities. Whether you felt that you were optimizing or not is not really an issue here, you did so and the houserules push it even further. I already went through just how unlikely it would be for you to actually be able to take out the party and your party looks to be incredibly unoptimized so you could simply tone yourself back. For example, you could change over to being a nomad instead. Specialize in getting people around to where they need to be and quickly. You would still be able to make a well rounded character that way after all. Fafnir - So you are saying most people just disregard Arcane Spell Failure all together? The reason that divine casters dont have this limitation (other then RP reasons) is the divine spell list (especially at lower levels) is far from agressive and is mostly buff/debuff/healing related. On a spell level per spell level basis, divine spells do not stack up to the lethality of arcane ones. Not directed at me but still... ASF is going away slowly, at some point it will hopefully be completely gone. Many/most/all classes with arcane casting now have some way around the spell failure. The divine spell list has some pretty potent attack spells on it as well... I know that sound burst, silence, and spiritual weapon do some pretty hefty effects when used offensively. Shillelagh can be kindof insane as well!
Fafnir 07-12-07, 01:56 PM	ASF is going away slowly, at some point it will hopefully be completely gone. Many/most/all classes with arcane casting now have some way around the spell failure. The divine spell list has some pretty potent attack spells on it as well... I know that sound burst, silence, and spiritual weapon do some pretty hefty effects when used offensively. Shillelagh can be kindof insane as well! Yes, I meant that... sorry, my post was ambiguously worded.
Bacris 07-12-07, 02:05 PM	Notwithstanding the above, this thread has caused me to really look at the psionic rules for the first time, and now I know why I've always refused to play them. They are complete and utter cheese. If anyone suggested a 2nd level wizard spell that inflicted 3d6+3 damage on up to 5 targets, that had no somatic, verbal, or material components, and that could be cast 8 time a day the boards would go beserk. Because one power you take exception to invalidates 200 pages of rules. Right. Ok. Have a nice game...
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 02:05 PM	Thanks for the replies all, zorgling25 - No problem, maybe I was reading too much into the tone of your posts or more likely I was getting a bit defensive. I understand what you are saying and I agree 100% that the only way we will be able to know the general power level of a psion is to have one played. Also it would help to either have the other players take some time to optimize their characters or for me to tone mine back. Scion of Coldshard - Thanks for clearing up what fafnir was saying. I agree that many classes are finding ways around ASF and it is becoming much more common to do so, but I guess the way I look at it is it requires alot more planning and optimization as opposed to a 6th level psion wearing full plate and using a tower shield. Fafnir - I understand what you mean now :) The true test is to play the characters our and see how powerful they really are. We have never really played anything from the book of nine swords and we were under the impression that they were very powerful and were not sure they should be played (of course all of this was in comparision to fighters who are definatly lower on the food chain). Now that we have had one in play we dont find them to be overpowered, for the most part they can keep up damage wise with the party wizard, but the warblade is already thinking of changing his guy because he see the lack of flexability he will be getting later in levels when me and the druid will be flying and having all these utility power to boot. So i guess it really just comes down to how you build and play your character. Built for optimization any character can become a killing machine, but at the end of the day if all you can do is kill with your guy you might as well pick up Titans quest or diablo and go hack and slash your way to glory.
Scion of Coldshard 07-12-07, 02:49 PM	a 6th level psion wearing full plate and using a tower shield. I imagine the number of psions doing that will be pretty much zero, the drawbacks are just too high. Now it isnt as bad for a multiclassed character, but multiclassing does bite into the psions progression.
Magus_Darksoul 07-12-07, 02:50 PM	I imagine the number of psions doing that will be pretty much zero, the drawbacks are just too high. Now it isnt as bad for a multiclassed character, but multiclassing does bite into the psions progression. What are the drawbacks if you rely entirely on saving throw dependant powers?
zorgling25 07-12-07, 03:02 PM	What are the drawbacks if you rely entirely on saving throw dependant powers? Well, pure-classed psions DO have encounter longevity issues. Especially at low levels, even wizards need to dip into combat, as do psions. At higher levels, pure-classed psions have a significant encounter longevity gap in comparison to wizards, meaning that frontline fighting (as you have done) becomes relevant. IMO Inertial Armor is one of those powers that PP-pumping is worth it, because the wizard equivalent doesn't have level-dependent gain.
Scion of Coldshard 07-12-07, 03:15 PM	What are the drawbacks if you rely entirely on saving throw dependant powers? Reduced maneuverability, encumbrance issues, essentially the inability to succeed at attack rolls if needed, str checks, strength based skills, dex checks, and dexterity based skills. These can all be killers for the psion, depending on the situation.
Fafnir 07-12-07, 03:31 PM	Reduced maneuverability, encumbrance issues, essentially the inability to succeed at attack rolls if needed, str checks, strength based skills, dex checks, and dexterity based skills. These can all be killers for the psion, depending on the situation. Do not forget the fact that many Psions just cannot use it as their strenght is too low.
Scion of Coldshard 07-12-07, 03:36 PM	Do not forget the fact that many Psions just cannot use it as their strenght is too low. I rounded that off into 'encumbrance issues' ;)
InkBlot 07-12-07, 03:45 PM	What are the drawbacks if you rely entirely on saving throw dependant powers? Besides the fact that heavy armor alone lowers your speed, most psions won't have the strength to lift a tower shield (45 lbs), a suit of full plate (50 lbs), and various other equipment (dorjes, rations, bedroll, tent, etc). Armor also costs money. Money that would be better spent on power stones, dorjes, and headbands of intellect. If anybody casts grease under your feet, you're screwed. If anybody throws a net over your head (or hits you with entangling ectoplasm), you're screwed. If you need to climb, swim, or jump, you're screwed. At 6th level there are some powers that could help you get around these disadvantages, but at that point you're using up resources that could have been spent on things that end your enemies. At any rate, a mithral chain shirt and a mithral heavy shield have no armor check penalty and only weigh 25 lbs altogether. Like the saying goes, "everybody is proficient in mithral."
Ryoohki 07-12-07, 04:29 PM	I'd like to point out a few things that I don't believe others have mentioned yet. Forgive me if I missed them. 1. Regaining your psionic focus provokes an attack of opportunity, even when done has a move action. That means if you're going into melee and wanting to regain your focus, you'll be letting all of your opponents get an extra attack on your turn. Granted, if you use expansion, step back, and they don't have reach, you can get around this by attacking from 10 ft away. They can of course counter that by flanking you so you can't get away from both people. Also, expansion will lower your AC so it's a bit risky. 2. You can't use hustle in the middle of attacks. I believe you mentioned attacking once, then hustling to regain focus, then taking your second attack. That's not allowed as you can't use a move action in the middle of a full-attack. You can do one 5-ft step. 3. The Practiced Manifester feat (or whatever you called it) that you came up with is a bit iffy on increasing the level you can augment to. I know others have mentioned reasons for this already, but one that I didn't see mentioned was this. The Practiced Spellcaster feat increases the caster level which increases level-dependent things in the spells being cast. It doesn't let the spellcaster cast higher level spells than he's otherwise able to do. Augmenting is letting you cast a higher-level spell. Of course, psions don't get extra damage being higher level. They just get to augment higher. So if you don't include that, it would be weaker. So I'm not sure which way it should be because it'll either be weaker or stronger than the wizard equiv. Just pointing that out. Maybe come up with a compromise that works but doesn't unbalance it. Another observation. Your character appears to have a number of extra feats which I'm guessing the other characters also have, right? You said you swapped in something to get more feats or something. Characters are typically more powerful than normal if you give them a number of bonus feats. However, once characters start getting a lot of extra attacks a round and you just have the one attack, it'll be evening out. Your low bab will indeed also hurt quite a bit so while you may be able to get into melee and not get hit as often and survive because of high HP, you won't hit as well or get as many attacks as those who focus on those kinds of things. Anyway, happy hunting. Kyle
zorgling25 07-12-07, 04:39 PM	2. You can't use hustle in the middle of attacks. I believe you mentioned attacking once, then hustling to regain focus, then taking your second attack. That's not allowed as you can't use a move action in the middle of a full-attack. You can do one 5-ft step. I believed he expended psionic focus to use Psionic Weapon with his full attack. Can he then hustle afterward to get the extra move action to gain psionic focus?
Ryoohki 07-12-07, 05:03 PM	I believed he expended psionic focus to use Psionic Weapon with his full attack. Can he then hustle afterward to get the extra move action to gain psionic focus? I guess I misread that or something. Anyway, also it does still take power points to use hustle. 3 each time which is not nothing. So if you are indeed out of power points, you can't do that. If you're running low, you'll run out doing that. Kyle
zorgling25 07-12-07, 05:48 PM	I guess I misread that or something. Anyway, also it does still take power points to use hustle. 3 each time which is not nothing. So if you are indeed out of power points, you can't do that. If you're running low, you'll run out doing that. Kyle Not to mention that if he has no power points, he can't gain psionic focus at all.
Colmarr 07-12-07, 06:52 PM	Because one power you take exception to invalidates 200 pages of rules. Right. Ok. Have a nice game... Actually, no. I checked and checked and checked and could not come up with a strategy by which the listed 4 PCs could take this 1 PC out. That is cheese. Psionics ignore or completely ignore ASF, which - like it or not - are a major balancing factor on the arcane spellcasting classes. Why are wizards and sorceror so vulnerable to melee? Because they have low AC and low hp. But psions get high AC just by dipping into Fighter for one level. With no ASF, they pay no penalty to do so. No such luck for arcane casters. It also ignores material and somatic components and spell focuses, which are another limiting factor. Arcane spellcaster gets grappled? He's as good as dead. Psion gets grappled? Whoops. No problem. A concentration check and they're blasting away as normal. A 3rd level psion has 11pp base per day. That's 3 energy missiles per day with 2 pp left over. A 3rd level wizard has 3 spells per day (plus cantrips), only 1 of which is 2nd level. The psion then has the ability to potentially manifest a psionic weapon as a move action that increases their melee damage by 2d6. I won't argue about high-level psionics. I don't know anything about them. But from what I've seen, low-level psionics are overpowered.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 07:11 PM	Actually, no. I checked and checked and checked and could not come up with a strategy by which the listed 4 PCs could take this 1 PC out. That is cheese. Thats a fallacy. The fact that you couldn't come up with a strategy doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I'm curious as to how you worked this out when all he gave us about the other characters is their class combinations. We don't even know how many levels of each they have. Psionics ignore or completely ignore ASF, which - like it or not - are a major balancing factor on the arcane spellcasting classes. Why are wizards and sorceror so vulnerable to melee? Because they have low AC and low hp. But psions get moderate to high AC relatively easily. No such luck for arcane casters. For low levels, this is true. As the saying goes, however, "everyone is proficient with mithril." :P That aside, however, there are plenty of ways for arcane casters to get casting in armor. It also ignores material components/spell focuses, which are another limiting factor. Arcane spellcaster gets grappled? He's as good as dead. Psion gets grappled? Whoops. No problem. A relatively easily concentration check and they're blasting away as normal. Hence why Wizards put the reserve feats in Complete Mage. Yay supernatural abilities! :D A 3rd level psion has 11pp base per day. That's 3 energy missiles per day with 2 pp left over. A 3rd level wizard has 3 spells per day (plus cantrips), only 1 of which is 2nd level. Its well established that psions beat wizards or sorcerers at low levels. However, the wizards outrun the psions when 1) level-based effects of spells come close to maxing out and 2) A wizard's spell knowledge significantly outdoes a psion's power knowledge. The psion then has the ability to potentially manifest a psionic weapon as a move action that increases their melee damage by 2d6. And he has to take an AoO to do it, and, in the case of psions that are crossed with fighting characters, they have to provoke 2 if they want to use Hustle to get their full attack. By the time you get a 2nd or 3rd attack, you start doing LESS damage with Psionic Weapon than you do with full attacks. I won't argue about high-level psionics. I don't know anything about them. But from what I've seen, low-level psionics are overpowered. Thats the catch though. Psions are a little more powerful at low levels, but thats made up for by the fact that at high levels, they have a SIGNIFICANT power dropoff. There's really no point in arguing if you haven't played through the class at all power levels.
Colmarr 07-12-07, 07:24 PM	That aside, however, there are plenty of ways for arcane casters to get casting in armor. Show me one way that an arcane "full caster" can get the ability to cast without penalty while wearing full plate, carrying a shield in one hand, and a weapon in the other. Without heavy use of feats and/or prestige classes, I can't think of any. Hence why Wizards put the reserve feats in Complete Mage. Yay supernatural abilities! So arcane casters (and divine casters for that matter) have to spend a feat(s) to gain an ability that psions gain for free? And he has to take an AoO to do it, and, in the case of psions that are crossed with fighting characters, they have to provoke 2 if they want to use Hustle to get their full attack. By the time you get a 2nd or 3rd attack, you start doing LESS damage with Psionic Weapon than you do with full attacks. The point is not that a psion is better in melee than a fighter, but that a psion is much better in melee than an arcane full caster. A member of those classes is never going to have an effective iterative attack, so full attacks are somewhat moot. Thats the catch though. Psions are a little more powerful at low levels, but thats made up for by the fact that at high levels, they have a SIGNIFICANT power dropoff. There's really no point in arguing if you haven't played through the class at all power levels. Aside from pointing out the "snobbishness" of the last sentence, I won't argue about the accuracy of your conclusion. I don't know enough about high-level psionics. But IMO it's a fallacy to "balance" overpower at low levels with underpower at high levels or vice versa. And as for your suggestion that psions are a "little" more powerful at low levels, I think that seems to be an understatement...
zorgling25 07-12-07, 07:44 PM	Show me one way that an arcane "full caster" can get the ability to cast without penalty while wearing full plate, carrying a shield in one hand, and a weapon in the other. Without heavy use of feats and/or prestige classes, I can't think of any. Mithril Chain has no ASF. Nor does a +1 Mithril Heavy Shield AFAIK. While full casters won't be running around in plate mail, nor will psions, because of the severe movement limitations. So arcane casters (and divine casters for that matter) have to spend a feat(s) to gain an ability that psions gain for free? No, they spend a feat to gain something much better. They gain an ability that can't be dispelled, doesn't provoke AoOs, and has unlimited uses per day effectively. The point is not that a psion is better in melee than a fighter, but that a psion is much better in melee than an arcane full caster. A member of those classes is never going to have an effective iterative attack, so full attacks are somewhat moot. Except for the fact that unless the psion could fight semi-effectively in melee, it doesn't have the encounter longevity of a wizard or sorcerer, since, to keep up with the same power level, he has to expend power points, while the wizard or sorcerer's spells increase in power naturally. Aside from pointing out the "snobbishness" of the last sentence, I won't argue about the accuracy of your conclusion. I don't know enough about high-level psionics. But IMO it's a fallacy to "balance" overpower at low levels with underpower at high levels or vice versa. And as for your suggestion that psions are a "little" more powerful at low levels, I think that seems to be an understatement... It wasn't meant to be snobbish or offensive in any way, and if it sounded either, I apologize. Some classes just are less powerful at low levels and more at high levels, thats just an issue of the flavor of the game. Even at early levels, the main trade-off of a psion is encounter longevity. Because he has to expend power points to keep his powers as powerful as a wizards, he can get through less encounters in a day.
Fafnir 07-12-07, 08:01 PM	Note that saying that Psions are more powerful than mages at low levels equals saying that they're actually useful there. Wizards and sorcerors are very badly balanced, weak at low levels and uber from medium onwards. Psions begin closer to melee classes in low level power (when fighters are actually good, you know), and stray less far from balanced at high levels. The arcane power curve is horribly scaled. ... nitpick: Mithril Chain has 10% ASF. However, I must remind you of the existence of Bracers of Armor and the Twilight enhancement. And that's without including PrCs and alternate class features. Stating that ASF is a key element in balance is misleading. ASF is pointless. Casters do not need armor, they just need mobility spells and the god sense to STAY AWAY FROM MELEE. A psion can do melee? Yes, alright. Slightly better than a mage? Yes. But is it actually efficient? No. Standing back and using a bow/crossbow is a better idea, it's easy to see. And armor does not matter anymore. Don't believe me? My wizards rarely have more than 16 AC, and they still survive. By not getting targeted.
Erato 07-12-07, 08:51 PM	Colmarr, I hate to repeat it (can't remember if anyone have said it yet, but I can't imagine they haven't) but most of the things you complain about can be said about divine casters too. And comparing 4 non-optimized multiclass builds with a marginally optimized one, doesn't really give you a good picture (or even a picture at all ;) ) on the strenghts and weaknesses of different classes. Show me one way that an arcane "full caster" can get the ability to cast without penalty while wearing full plate, carrying a shield in one hand, and a weapon in the other. Without heavy use of feats and/or prestige classes, I can't think of any. Warmage with mithral armor and shield.
Wizard Zorander 07-12-07, 09:20 PM	Eschew Materials + Still spell gets the job done in full plate with sword and board. Yes I know thats a +1 spell level from still spell but I am sure you can find a prc (etc) to remove that and still keep full caster progression.
Colmarr 07-12-07, 09:22 PM	Ok, let's move away from the low vs high level issue. I can't address it, and it's questionable in any event (IMO) whether "imbalance" at one level is countered by the opposite "imbalance" at another. Psionic characters have no ASF. Regardless of whether it's a big factor or not, at the very least it is a restriction. An ASF class with mithral full plate and a mithral shield still has 30% spell failure (25 from the full plate and 5 from the shield). Even looked at solely in economic terms, mithral sets you back 10,000gp over the cost of non-mithral gear. (The warmage mentioned above must be 8th level before being able to use mithral fullplate, and even then is limited to light shields.) Psionic characters have no components or physical foci. They cannot be effectively hampered by paralysis, disarming, silence, deafness, or grappling. They also do not need a free hand to cast, so they can cast while climbing, swimming, or hanging from a rope. Divine casters get around the former but not the latter, as they generally need to be able to manipulate their foci to cast their spells. If Psionic powers were less powerful than arcane spells, you might have a balanced system, but neither of the two powers here are less powerful than equivalent arcane spells. Energy Missile is at worst on par with scorching ray, and Telekinetic Thrust is the equivalent of the Sor/Wiz5 spells Telekinesis, but available at 3rd level instead of 9th. Stating that ASF is a key element in balance is misleading. ASF is pointless. Casters do not need armor, they just need mobility spells and the god sense to STAY AWAY FROM MELEE... Don't believe me? My wizards rarely have more than 16 AC, and they still survive. By not getting targeted. With all due respect to your DM then, he is not doing his job. Virtually every encounter in printed sources with "suggested tactics" and ranged attackers states that they will target the spellcasters first. Edit: Eschew Materials + Still spell gets the job done in full plate with sword and board. Yes I know thats a +1 spell level from still spell but I am sure you can find a prc (etc) to remove that and still keep full caster progression. 2 feats (one of which is only useful if you either enchance all your spells, or somehow pick exactly the right spell to use it on) and/or a prestige class to attain an ability that psions have as standard. And incidentally, saying that a psion is balanced against the wizard or sorcerer because the latter can take prestige classes is a logical fallacy. It's like saying a porsche is like a volvo because you can put a jet engine into the volvo.
Wizard Zorander 07-12-07, 10:00 PM	You asked for ways he could do it, I gave you one. I haven't made any assertions to balance or equality. Edit: and two feats for a wizard is not heavy.
rilem 07-12-07, 10:42 PM	Actually, no. I checked and checked and checked and could not come up with a strategy by which the listed 4 PCs could take this 1 PC out... I just noticed Zorgling called you on this already, but it's worth shooting down a second time. Granted, these are four fairly weak generalist (from the sound of it) PCs vs. a mildly specialized one (who still isn't that optimized, witness the lack of the Vigor/share pain trick) who has the deck stacked in his favor with terrain, etc. But with ANY planning and clever use of available spells on their part, I'd say this guy could easily get taken down inside of five rounds. Maybe one, if he rolls poorly. (Since he's got a CR 7 partner, however, the resulting combo is probably an EL 9 encounter and is classifed as "Very Difficult" for this group.) The OP has based his much of his argument on the fact that his PC can do this, or that, or the other thing. But he can't do them all at once — nor, aside from the Energy Missile thing, can he do any of them all that well. A dumb-as-rocks fighter6, with proper feats, could easily be dealing an average of 18 points of damage per hit -- more than the psion -- and doing it twice per round, and at a higher attack bonus. And if he bothers to charge with ShockTrooper/Combat brute your party's over. Telekinetic Thrust? Nice idea, but at 200 lbs. base plus Full Plate and equipment, he tops out at more than your weight limit. You could try hurling his sword, but his Will save is about equal to the psion, with this group's generous stat distribution, Iron Will and a +1 item. Makes the DC 17 DC check (what it should be, as Practiced Spellcaster doesn't boost DC levels) more than half the time. But maybe he fails, and maybe he's the one fighter in the world who doesn't carry a backup weapon. Which means it's time for the other three PCs to do something.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 10:59 PM	If Psionic powers were less powerful than arcane spells, you might have a balanced system, but neither of the two powers here are less powerful than equivalent arcane spells. Energy Missile is at worst on par with scorching ray, and Telekinetic Thrust is the equivalent of the Sor/Wiz5 spells Telekinesis, but available at 3rd level instead of 9th. I see, then I will set out to prove that arcane spells are more powerful than psionic powers. I will provide examples. If you want me to make more comparisons, simply choose a psionic power from XPH and I will try to find a spell to compare it with. Fair? First important point, I will count spell slots in terms of the equivalent number of power points for that power level. I will start with damage spells, as they are easier to compare. Magic Missile vs. Energy Ray vs. Mind Thrust Nondamage Elements: Magic missile is never miss, which IMO is better than the 1 extra damage that Energy ray unaugmented can do. Mind Thrust has significantly better damage at 1st level, but has the glaring weakness that it cannot harm any creature that is immune to mind-affecting. I will address other issues with mind thrust later. 1st Level Caster/Manifester: Magic Missile Average Damage - 3.5, 1 pp worth Energy Ray Average Damage - 4.5, 1 pp worth Mind Thrust Average Damage - 5.5, 1 pp worth Magic missile is at least on par with Energy Ray, due to never-miss, and falls slightly behind mind thrust. 3rd Level Caster/Manifester: Magic Missile - 7.0 split max 2 targets, 1 pp Energy Ray - 4.5 1 pp, 7.0 2 pp, 8.5 3 pp Mind Thrust - 5.5 1 pp, 11.0 2 pp, 16.5 3 pp Already, at 3rd level, Energy Ray has to spend twice the power points to achieve the same damage as Magic Missile AND its limited to a single target. Mind Thrust seems to achieve much more damage, but in terms of pp efficiency, Magic Missile already wins. 5th Level Caster/Manifester: Magic Missile - 10.5 split max 3 targets, 1 pp Energy Ray - 4.5 1 pp, 7.0 2 pp, 8.5 3 pp, etc. Mind Thrust - 5.5 1 pp, 11.0 2 pp, 16.5 3 pp, etc. Energy Ray is now effectively out of the running, because for the total manifesting cost of a 2nd level power, Energy Ray can't beat Magic Missile. Sure, you could spend 5 pp to manifest it, allowing it to do 5d6 damage, but thats the same power point cost as a 3rd level spell. Mind Thrust is losing its steam, as 1 pp worth of Magic Missile does barely less damage than 2 pp worth of Mind Thrust. Also, at this level, its not unreasonable to see enemies with will saves of +5 or +6, meaning that against those enemies, Mind Thrust will be doing 0 damage 1/2 the time. I don't think this example needs to continue because 1 pp worth of Missile just destroys either of these further on. Now your biggest complaint is Energy Missile. I will attempt to compare it to a third level spell. Now I know you will complain that I can't make a 3rd level spell vs. 2nd level spell comparison, but I assure you, the difference will be great enough that it won't matter. For further comparison, I will also throw in a third level power. Fireball vs. Energy Missile vs. Energy Burst Nondamage Elements: Energy Missile has the upper hand on this one, being never miss, but Fireball more than makes up for it having 4 x the range and effectively 2-3 times the blast diameter (max distance between Energy Missile targets is 15 ft, max distance between Fireball targets is 40 ft.). Fireball stomps on Energy burst, because despite its energy changing and double radius, Fireball literally has infinitely better range. Energy burst also has the separate problem that blasting allies within 40 feet of you tends to **** them off. 5th Level Caster: Fireball - 17.5, 5 pp Energy Missile - 13.5 3 pp, 18.0 4 pp, 22.5 5 pp Energy Burst - 17.5, 5 pp Fireball and Energy burst are even right now, Energy missile is winning. 6th Level Caster: Fireball - 21.0, 5 pp Energy Missile - 13.5 3 pp, 18.0 4 pp, 22.5 5 pp, etc. Energy Burst - 17.5 5 pp, 21.0 6 pp Energy Burst is already less efficient, and Fireball is quickly catching up with Energy Missile. 7th Level Caster: Fireball - 24.5, 5 pp Energy Missile - 13.5 3 pp, 18.0 4 pp, 22.5 5 pp, etc. Energy Burst - 17.5 5 pp, 21.0 6 pp, etc. Finally, as a 7th level caster, Fireball trumps Energy Missile and Energy Burst So, despite possibly being more powerful at first, Even Energy Missile, the most efficient of Psion spells (and limited only to Kineticists even then) gets taken down within a few levels. The same could be applied to any other set of equivalent damage spells (my favorite comparison is Arcane disintegrate vs. Psionic disintegrate). You aren't even in to high levels yet, and Arcane spells are already winning.
gotbrain 07-12-07, 11:30 PM	There is no way this character could beat that party of 4; I mean you're not a druid after all :-) Not only is he not over powered, but he's not optomized. In fact I could probably beat him with a single wizard character. (btw your +1 full plate armor and +1 shield is going to cost 3807 gp) Just to make it as even as possible i have a wiz(5)/F(1). +1 mithril, twilight chain shirt (no ASF, 2100 gp) + shield spell + 16 dex = 21 AC, only 1 point off yours (and your touch AC = 10)! But this doesn't really matter because you will NEVER get close enough to melee with me with your 20' movement rate. Ok assuming no surprise and I win initiative (imp initiave feat +4 and 16 DEX +2 = +6, not guarenteed but still a good edge) my first action would be to cast web. With an ACP of -8 because of the armor you're wearing you are almost guarenteed to fail your reflex save. Now that I have you safely pinned down I will take the next 5 rounds to cast my 2 lightning bolts (ave damage 17 each), 2 scorching rays (ave damage 14 each) and then finish you off with a magic missle. Now you could try to break free of the web which would prove fruitless in that armor or you could just stay there stuck and try to mentally assualt me in which case it comes down to who can do more damage to the other first. Of course web might not work if we're in the open but with invisibility or hold person or many other spells I'm sure I could finish you off or worst case just run away. Can you see why wearing that armor is a bad idea? Not only does it not give you an advantage over the wizard but it hurts you! And your sword is useless. What good does doing all that damage do you when can never hit? your base attack is only +3. Sure you have an 18 Str but your stats are VERY high. Almost no other players have stats like this so they will suck swinging that sword.
rilem 07-12-07, 11:55 PM	Web probably won't work -- he could dimension hop out of it. As for his Attack Bonus, he can boost it with Offensive Prescience, but that's a standard action to activate for another level at least.
gimby 07-13-07, 12:28 AM	Swift note, ACP does not apply to reflex saves.
Colmarr 07-13-07, 12:51 AM	Gotbrain: You conveniently neglect to mention that the OP character could Energy Missile you for 6d6+6 damage per round, targetting your weak reflex save. You also factor a short duration spell into your AC. While yes it does come down to who can do more damage faster, the psion has the advantage because they can augment their save DCs by spending power points. You've also selected a somewhat iffy feat (Imp. Init) and your high Dex is doubtless impacting on either your Con or Intelligence, both of which affect your ability to survive a spellslinging duel. Zorgling: Thanks for taking the time to do those comparisons. They do go some way to answering my fears. While I could pick some holes in your assessments, your point is well made and I won't sink to nit-picking. I stand by my original point about balancing low level against high level, but it does appear that arcane casters get the "boomstick" edge at higher levels because of the way some arcane spells scale damage by level. I also stand by my position that psions are much more versatile than arcane or divine casters (particularly when comparing pp pools vs the vancian system that core casters use), but if the truth of the matter is that they are similar to bards (good at everything but not great at anything), then I can probably accept that. In summary: not convinced, but swayed enough to stop arguing over it :D
gotbrain 07-13-07, 02:01 AM	excuse my faux paus. We could go with grease then and watch him fall. If I kept my distance I could also acid arrow him. Ghoul touch (fort save) could paralyze him, hold person (will save) would also take him out. And just one spell level higher gets me minor glove of inv. which makes me immune to all his attack powers. But the point I was trying to make was (1) having full plate with no ACF is not that great (2) he can be defeated, it maybe be difficult with a low level wizard but it's possible and very easy with any two PC's.
Colmarr 07-13-07, 02:18 AM	Edit: Never mind. I don't want to get drawn into a debate over where Gotbrain's PC could kill Magus_Darksoul's.
Fafnir 07-13-07, 06:21 AM	With all due respect to your DM then, he is not doing his job. Virtually every encounter in printed sources with "suggested tactics" and ranged attackers states that they will target the spellcasters first. Not by lack of trying. Minor Image, Mirror Image, and Blur make it pretty much impossible to hit any decent caster. Edit: Not simultaneously, of course. Concealment does not stack.
PhaedrusXY 07-13-07, 11:59 AM	At any rate, a mithral chain shirt and a mithral heavy shield have no armor check penalty and only weigh 25 lbs altogether. Like the saying goes, "everybody is proficient in mithral."Darkwood is better for the shield. ;)
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 12:33 PM	Wow, lots of posts, thanks everyone, Fafnir - psions can also get concealment Colmarr - thanks for pointing out somethings for me and for not getting drawn into the Magus vs. Gotbrain death match :) gotbrain - Like Colmarr pointed out, me being web'd really makes no difference to this character as his melee and ranged are fairly well balanced. I would have the option of using energy missile each round (including the round you used web) and I am quite sure my HP would be much higher then yours. In a blast off competition I would have to say I would win. More then likely though, I would gamble on a telekinetic thrust to throw you towards me into your own web, that is where the real fun would begin :) rilem - Telekinetic Thrust has a base weight of 250lb + 25 per power point. You are correct that a full plate fighter will more then likely weight more then this. The difference between me and a full plate fighter is that if we both move 20' per round I can use hustle to keep my distance while still blasting him with spells. "Makes the DC 17 DC check (what it should be, as Practiced Spellcaster doesn't boost DC levels)" - I 100% agree practiced spellcaster (or manifester in this case) does not increase the DC, but my 20 int is a +5 bonus, and the feat psionic prodigy (see my first post) is a +1 to the DC, making it DC 19 (10 + 3 psionic level + 5 intelligence + 1 psionic prodigy). Carrying a backup weapon is all well and good, but rarly is it even the same enhancement modifiers as your primary or the same weapon for that matter. So a weapon focus or weapon specialized fighter is not going to have 2 +1 flaming greatswords just in case. Ryoohki - Very good point on the AoO when regaining your psionic focus, something that I overlooked. While you cant use a move action in the middle of a full-attack, you can use a swift action (as it is stated as being usable instantly anytime during your turn). The swift action of hustle is what is giving you a move action to regain your psionic focus. So you could attack, spend your psionic focus, use hustle, regain your psionic focus, second attack, spend your psionic focus again. "The Practiced Manifester feat (or whatever you called it) that you came up with is a bit iffy" - This is not a feat I have made up, this is a legit feat from the complete psionic that does exactly waht practiced spellcaster does for wizards. While my low BaB is a drawback right now, by level 20 through the slayer or similar class this character will have a 16 BaB (same number of attacks per round as a fighter) and a 17th level manifester (20th level in terms of augmentation with practiced manifester feat). At the early levels alot of melee combat will be based around single attacks that use psionic weapon/greater psionic weapon when I get it. Melee will only become an option if I am low on PP or see no reason to waste any on the current opponents.
Fafnir 07-13-07, 12:52 PM	Fafnir - psions can also get concealment That's my point, actually. Both can easily survive with means other than armor. Absence of ASF for psions is just icing on the cake, not a critical balance point.
rilem 07-13-07, 12:56 PM	I 100% agree practiced spellcaster (or manifester in this case) does not increase the DC, but my 20 int is a +5 bonus, and the feat psionic prodigy (see my first post) is a +1 to the DC I'm sorry, this was my typo. Psionic Prodigy doesn't boost DC, either, because Spellcasting Prodigy no longer does and you said it was a direct copy of Spellcasting Prodigy. (And even at DC 19 he's got a 50/50 chance of saving, and fighters really shouldn't take Weapon Focus, anyway.) Regardless, the fighter has done his job, forcing you to burn between 6-10 power points and concentrate on him — the high-HP guy — while the rest of the party targets you.
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 12:58 PM	Getting rid of the houseruled +5 concentration boosting item (shouldnt be allowed anyway) means that your concentration check is only +12/+13 so if you are entangled making that DC 17 check to manifest actually becomes a problem, not a tough one, but it should be factored in ;)
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 01:10 PM	I'm sorry, this was my typo. Psionic Prodigy doesn't boost DC, either, because Spellcasting Prodigy no longer does and you said it was a direct copy of Spellcasting Prodigy. (And even at DC 19 he's got a 50/50 chance of saving, and fighters really shouldn't take Weapon Focus, anyway.) Regardless, the fighter has done his job, forcing you to burn between 6-10 power points and concentrate on him — the high-HP guy — while the rest of the party targets you. I was unaware that they changed spellcasting prodigy to no longer grant a bonus to DC. When/where was this changed? Does it only grants a bonus to bonus spells? If that is the case this feat will be changed for something else.
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 01:11 PM	Getting rid of the houseruled +5 concentration boosting item (shouldnt be allowed anyway) means that your concentration check is only +12/+13 so if you are entangled making that DC 17 check to manifest actually becomes a problem, not a tough one, but it should be factored in ;) I am confused as to how a +5 ring of concentration is a house ruled item? There are plenty of items in the DM and Magic Item Compendium that grant +5 to skills for a cost of 2,500gp.
Fafnir 07-13-07, 01:20 PM	I am confused as to how a +5 ring of concentration is a house ruled item? There are plenty of items in the DM and Magic Item Compendium that grant +5 to skills for a cost of $2,500gp. I agree. The item is perfectly legal.
rilem 07-13-07, 02:14 PM	I was unaware that they changed spellcasting prodigy to no longer grant a bonus to DC. When/where was this changed? Does it only grants a bonus to bonus spells? If that is the case this feat will be changed for something else. It was changed in 3.5, printed Player's Guide to Faerun. Almost nobody takes it anymore. (For what it's worth, I thought the old one was fine, but WotC made an overall effort to cut down the DC-boosting feats/abilities, which by the end of 3.0 were sort of getting ridiculous). I am confused as to how a +5 ring of concentration is a house ruled item? There are plenty of items in the DM and Magic Item Compendium that grant +5 to skills for a cost of 2,500gp. The ring is fine. Tunic of Steady Spellcasting gives an across-the-board bonus to concentration checks, and not just for spellcasting. (This item is probably better than the ring, actually).
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 02:58 PM	I am confused as to how a +5 ring of concentration is a house ruled item? There are plenty of items in the DM and Magic Item Compendium that grant +5 to skills for a cost of 2,500gp. Not all skills are created equal. Some skills could have a massive bonus and no one would care, with others even a small external bonus throws off the system. Concentration is one of the latter, it should not get skill boosting items by the normal skill boosting price. As a more extreme example lets take jump and diplomacy. +50 to jump? Cool! That character is really good at jumping which should make for some interesting times. +50 to diplomacy? The game is now destroyed, lets go back in time and assume that item never existed, the gods say no.
rilem 07-13-07, 03:17 PM	The Tunic of Steady Spellcasting does use the standard price, however: +5 Competence to all Concentration Checks, 2,500 gp. Complete Adventurer and Magic Item Compendium (MIC may have changed the price, I can't recall).
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 03:20 PM	The Tunic of Steady Spellcasting does use the standard price, however: +5 Competence to all Concentration Checks, 2,500 gp. Remember, there are many overpowered items floating around.. some are downright broken, some are merely disruptive, some just need a much higher price tag than they have. Of course there is also the reverse of each of these as well.
rilem 07-13-07, 03:23 PM	My point wasn't whether it's overpowered or not. My point was that it's not a house-ruled item, but a books-legal one. (This item gets far, far worse with a Martial Adept, however — all those Diamond Mind maneuvers rely on concentration.)
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 03:25 PM	My point wasn't whether it's overpowered or not. My point was that it's not a house-ruled item, but a books-legal one. Which book is the ring in?
zorgling25 07-13-07, 03:37 PM	Like Colmarr pointed out, me being web'd really makes no difference to this character as his melee and ranged are fairly well balanced. I would have the option of using energy missile each round (including the round you used web) and I am quite sure my HP would be much higher then yours. In a blast off competition I would have to say I would win. More then likely though, I would gamble on a telekinetic thrust to throw you towards me into your own web, that is where the real fun would begin :) What's the range on telekinetic thrust? My experience is that while psions have a lot of effective ranged powers, they have very few that are effective at long (400+ ft.) range. On the flip side, Acid Arrow, Fireball and Ice Storm, all reasonable low-level Wizard attack spells have long range, and involve TOUCH attacks (IIRC your touch AC was 10, because all your AC was from your plate mail), Reflex saves, and no save, respectively. In theory, a pure Wizard could take full-run actions until they were 400 feet away from you(since their speed would be significantly higher than yours due to encumbrance), cast these spells until you caught up, full run to 400 ft again, and repeat. And be aware that your high HP is only due to your constitution. Any wizard built off of identical stats to yours would, on average, only have 3 less max hp than you, since the only difference in hp would be from your 1 fighter hit dice.
vahju 07-13-07, 03:37 PM	If you play with magic/psionic transparency then the wizards at fourth level could put up a minor globe and totally ignore powers 3rd level or lower no matter how much the power is augmented. To be honest just play the game to have fun. Everyone has in the past boosted about how there character can take other PCs out. But if you spend all your time worried about killing your own team mates then some baddy is going to get the better of you because you didn't prepare for him. I know simple logic but its the truth.
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 03:39 PM	What's the range on telekinetic thrust? Medium per the SRD
rilem 07-13-07, 03:42 PM	Which book is the ring in? :rolleyes: sigh ... you got me. Yes, shifting the item from a tunic to a ring makes it a custom item. Are you telling me that your problem with the item was the fact that it was a ring he was wearing? Because there are MUCH better ring choices for him to be wearing, while the tunic/vest slot doesn't get much better than this.
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 03:45 PM	Yes, shifting the item from a tunic to a ring makes it a custom item. Are you telling me that your problem with the item was the fact that it was a ring he was wearing? Because there are MUCH better ring choices for him to be wearing, while the tunic/vest slot doesn't get much better than this. My problem is with the actual ability that it grants, but if you want to pick nits I will pick them right back ;)
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 03:47 PM	What's the range on telekinetic thrust? My experience is that while psions have a lot of effective ranged powers, they have very few that are effective at long (400+ ft.) range. On the flip side, Acid Arrow, Fireball and Ice Storm, all reasonable low-level Wizard attack spells have long range, and involve TOUCH attacks (IIRC your touch AC was 10, because all your AC was from your plate mail), Reflex saves, and no save, respectively. In theory, a pure Wizard could take full-run actions until they were 400 feet away from you(since their speed would be significantly higher than yours due to encumbrance), cast these spells until you caught up, full run to 400 ft again, and repeat. And be aware that your high HP is only due to your constitution. Any wizard built off of identical stats to yours would, on average, only have 3 less max hp than you, since the only difference in hp would be from your 1 fighter hit dice. While this is true in practice, it is exceptionally flawed in that you assume I would keep chasing the wizard foolishly hoping to cross the distance. The reality is I would allow the wizard to run away while I take cover to avoid any artillery batteries launched at me.
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 03:49 PM	The Tunic of Steady Spellcasting does use the standard price, however: +5 Competence to all Concentration Checks, 2,500 gp. Complete Adventurer and Magic Item Compendium (MIC may have changed the price, I can't recall). The only reason it is a ring of concentration +5 is because I did not see the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting, which is in all ways a better choice since it does not take up a ring slot. While a +5 concentration ring might be more powerful then a +5 jump ring, the book has it laid out as a bonus x bonus x 100gp. So regardless of whether you deem concentration to be a more powerful skill or not the rules stat (for the purpose of magic item bonuses) all skills are created equal.
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 03:50 PM	Wizard: I am not retreating! I am using advanced tactics by changing my relative position to my target in a manner to maximize the distance between us!
zorgling25 07-13-07, 03:50 PM	While this is true in practice, it is exceptionally flawed in that you assume I would keep chasing the wizard foolishly hoping to cross the distance. The reality is I would allow the wizard to run away while I take cover to avoid any artillery batteries launched at me. If you turn around and find cover, the wizard turns around too, and casts fireballs and ice storm. Fireball still does decent damage even on a save, and ice storm is no save. The wizard is not running away, he's keeping the optimal distance between you two. It just occurs to me, if he has Expeditious Retreat cast, his base move becomes 60 feet. In heavy armor, your base move is 20 feet. At full run, you cover 60 feet, meaning once the Wizard is at optimal range, he can literally keep you EXACTLY at that range. A 7th level wizard (I realize you aren't 7th level, you are 6th, but advance yourself 1 hit dice for the sake of example) could in theory have 3 fireballs, 2 ice storms, and 4 acid arrows. The average damage for a 7th level fireball is 24.5 damage. Halved for reflex save is about 12 damage. Thats 36 damage from 3 fireballs on average. The average damage for ice storm is 17.5 damage. Since its no save, 2 ice storms does 35 damage on average. On average, you'd be down 70 hit points, and the wizard would only be down about 1 energy missile's worth of damage. Assuming you put the maximum of 7 pp into it, thats 7d6+7 damage, which is only about 20 damage on average. He can then sling his acid arrows at you. Even if only one of them hits, its another 15 average damage. I'd have a hard time believing that a 7th level psion with 2 fighter hit dice has 86 hit points.
Scion of Coldshard 07-13-07, 03:52 PM	So regardless of whether you deem concentration to be a more powerful skill or not the rules stat (for the purpose of magic item bonuses) all skills are created equal. I thought that you were concerned about your character being too strong? Using things that are too strong and then defending your choice might make one think that you arent all that concerned in reality... ;)
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 03:55 PM	If you turn around and find cover, the wizard turns around too, and casts fireballs and ice storm. Fireball still does decent damage even on a save, and ice storm is no save. The wizard is not running away, he's keeping the optimal distance between you two. It just occurs to me, if he has Expeditious Retreat cast, his base move becomes 60 feet. In heavy armor, your base move is 20 feet. At full run, you cover 60 feet, meaning once the Wizard is at optimal range, he can literally keep you EXACTLY at that range. I did not mean to imply that the wizard was a coward and running away :) Those are very valid tactical option, but how long can the wizard keep that up? How many fireballs is a 6th level wizard going to have? 3 for argument sake? that is 6 damage x 3 = 18 damage if I dont fail my save, which hardly seems dangerous to me. In turn 3 Damp powers will cost me 9 power points, less then 1/4th my total and the wizard is now out of 3rd level spells, back to medium range.
zorgling25 07-13-07, 04:02 PM	A 7th level wizard (I realize you aren't 7th level, you are 6th, but advance yourself 1 hit dice for the sake of example) could in theory have 3 fireballs, 2 ice storms, and 4 acid arrows. The average damage for a 7th level fireball is 24.5 damage. Halved for reflex save is about 12 damage. Thats 36 damage from 3 fireballs on average. The average damage for ice storm is 17.5 damage. Since its no save, 2 ice storms does 35 damage on average. On average, you'd be down 70 hit points, and the wizard would only be down about 1 energy missile's worth of damage. Assuming you put the maximum of 7 pp into it, thats 7d6+7 damage, which is only about 20 damage on average. He can then sling his acid arrows at you. Even if only one of them hits, its another 15 average damage. I'd have a hard time believing that a 7th level psion with 2 fighter hit dice has 86 hit points. Quoted because I was editing when you quoted me.
zorgling25 07-13-07, 04:07 PM	Those are very valid tactical option, but how long can the wizard keep that up? How many fireballs is a 6th level wizard going to have? 3 for argument sake? that is 6 damage x 3 = 18 damage if I dont fail my save, which hardly seems dangerous to me. In turn 3 Damp powers will cost me 9 power points, less then 1/4th my total and the wizard is now out of 3rd level spells, back to medium range. Where is Damp Power from? I've never seen it so I have no idea what it does. Granted, I'm a bit skeptical about bringing non-SRD powers/spells into the argument, since a spell/power from one source is bound to have a counter in some obscure source somewhere else. You'll notice I've mentioned no non-SRD material in this wizard.
Magus_Darksoul 07-13-07, 04:30 PM	Where is Damp Power from? I've never seen it so I have no idea what it does. Granted, I'm a bit skeptical about bringing non-SRD powers/spells into the argument, since a spell/power from one source is bound to have a counter in some obscure source somewhere else. You'll notice I've mentioned no non-SRD material in this wizard. Damp power is from the complete psionic. While arguing on the basis of SRD only might make for a more valid comparison on a forum, me and my friends play with every WotC printed book we get our hands on. Complete psionic is a WotC product and therefor is a valid book for players to choose from. Defending psionics is one thing, but doing so using only half the official printed material seems rather biased. How can one say that a psionicist is not powerful, but only use the main psionic book and none of its official expansion material (Which I should note clears up several rule errors on powers from the EPH)?
zorgling25 07-13-07, 04:31 PM	Note that Damp Power would be almost useless against Acid Arrow, since Damp Power only stops the effect taking place on that turn.
rilem 07-13-07, 05:29 PM	These sort of things always get bogged down in a mess of tactics and counter-tactics — especially with 1-on-1 fights. There are too many permutations. But here are a couple of four-person parties that I think have a good chance of wiping the floor with this particular Psion — but are not specifically geared to do so. Fighter6 (Iron Will, Combat Reflexes, EWP:Chain, Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, Combat Expert, Improved Trip) Wizard 6 (Improved Init, Extend Spell, Sudden Maximize) Cleric Archer6 (Elf, Time) Bbn2/Rogue4 (Lion Totem, Whirling Rage, Improved Initiative, Staggering Strike, Extra Rage, Mad Foam Rager) 1. The psion relies on actions and on manifesting defensively. The fighter's Mage Slayer feat (using transparency for psionics) keeps him from doing that and can likely keep him on his back for much of the combat. He's got a good Dex. for Combat Reflexes, so he'll probably go first. 2. The bbn/rogue, meanwhile, flanks with a glaive and denies you the actions you need to work via Staggering Strike. He starts out with a pouncing, triple-sneak-attack charge (courtesy of whirling rage and haste) at near-full BAB. The psion can probably push him away, but Mad Foam Rager means it won't take effect until next round, when the fighter is on top of him. 3. The Wizard isn't a blaster, despite the sudden maxmize. He's there to buff, cast Enlarge Person on the firghter in the first round, and after that move people around with Benign Transposition. 4. The Cleric provides support and readies actions to disrupt your manifesting. Casts Haste in the first round (Time domain) Here's group two: Crusader6 (White Raven Tactics) Fighter2/Ninja4 (Crossbow Sniper, PBS/Precise Shot, TWF, Rapid Reload) Druid6 (Natural Spell) Dragonfire Adept 6 (Slow Breath, Ability Focus, Flyby attack) 1. The Dragonfire Adept is absolute murder. The psion's Reflex save is lousy and Slow Breath will disrupt his actions. And the psion does poorly against flying opponents (Warlock 6 would also be a problem). 2. Ninja/Fighter, with Crossbow Sniper, sits beyond the range of the psion's touchsight and can sudden strike pretty much the entire combat. 3. Druid is the blaster here 4. Crusader has plenty of offensive options, but I just threw him in for healing.
gotbrain 07-13-07, 05:32 PM	I do think that a psion will more than likely defeat a single (low level) wizard; but once he reaches 7th level and gets minor globe it's game over for the psion, so enjoy those 6 levels of dominance. But I hope you at least see that the wizard is a challange and that if he had a fighter helping him they would more than likely take you down. Or in other words, your psion (and psionics in general) is not over powered.
zorgling25 07-13-07, 06:01 PM	The fact of the matter is, 1-on-1 fights are irrelevant to Dungeons and Dragons, simply because 99% of the time you aren't going to be engaged in 1-on-1 fights. Balance of a character is determined by how useful he or she is as part of an adventuring party. The Psion is not overpowered because, while it can lay down a lot of firepower in individual encounters, by the time he reaches level 7 or 8, he has to expend twice or three times the effective spell levels worth of pp in order to match a wizard of the same level's damage, and to exceed his damage, he has to expend even more. This means that in general, a psion will simply have 1/2 the encounter effectiveness of an arcane caster. If your psion was placed in a party of other characters that were pure-classed (say, a pure-classed fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard), you would not be able to put out as much damage as the fighter or soak up as many hits (or the cleric once he got Divine Power), you would not be able to heal other party members, you would not be able to perform skill-based non combat actions like the rogue, and you would have significantly less encounter longevity compared to the blasting wizard. These are the most basic functions that need to be covered by SOME (not all) members of the party. These 4 pure-classed characters represent the ability expected out of the party combined, and your character cannot match, in any combination, ANY of them.
Shadrach_Storm 07-16-07, 12:51 AM	In my experience, the psion can pump out more resources in a shorter amount of time than any other class. He can more easily pump out four encounters' worth of resources in one encounter than anyone else. The downside is that if he does that in the first of four encounters, he's weak in the other three. If the first encounter is the only encounter, that obviously isn't a downside. The psion needs multiple encounters to be balanced. He needs to be conserving resources for future problems and to be made to feel the want of those resources if he uses too many early on. In your scenario of attacking the party, if everyone has all their resources, your psion should be devastating. He can bring more resources to bear against the party in a few rounds than any other single character in the party. At full strength of 40 power points, you should be able to kill the mage and do considerable harm to the party. However, if everyone was at half strength, 20 power points wouldn't get the job done for you, while they would still have enough resources left at half strength to easily handle you. The mage could well still die, but at 22 hit points, he is weak. If he had your hit points because of a level of fighter, high con, and improved toughness, he would definitely survive.
Omen_of_Peace 07-17-07, 09:53 PM	Interestingly, you do seem to be able to weather a variety of tactics, and target various vulnerabilities. I'm not sure I would say your character is versatile, since he is very much combat oriented, but that's beside the point. Note that Damp Power is... well, very powerful (I want to say overpowered, but I tend to use that word too easily) ; I love this power, but it's level 2 only, unconditional and usable as an immediate action... A sorcerer/wizard's Enchantment or Necromancy save-or-die's would likely do you in, but you said thewizard doesn't use them - whereas you have Telekinetic Thrust to effectively disable the meleers. Hmm, I guess I'm not bringing much to the debate. So I'll just congratulate you for a very nice combat build ! :)
Fleem 07-18-07, 09:46 AM	You know, I could probably kill my own 6th level party with a 1st level commoner. Coup-de-grace while they're sleeping should do the trick nicely. ;)