AC Nerf...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC Nerf...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_One_Who_Walks
03-07-07, 08:35 PM ok, I do not have Comeplete Psionic. I've spent time in my local Borders reading parts of it, and frankly, the only thing I like is the Ardent, so I've not seen the need to spend money on it. However, I've been reading around, and I keep seeing referneces to the "Astral Construct nerf", particularly in threads to do with CP itself. I have no idea, however, what this nerf is. As widly reviled as it seems to be, I almost consider myself better off, but I confess I'm now curious. What did WotC do to decimate AC so throughly?
PrinceCurtis
03-07-07, 08:42 PM You don't like the Lurk? IMO it's the best class in there, with the Ebon Saint to best PrC. I also like the Zerth Cenobite and Soulbow. But anyway I thought this was a Armor Class question cause you used AC. The reason pwople don't like it is it takes away the ability to make multiple ones at the same time.
Artector
03-07-07, 09:00 PM They limited you to one at a time. The logic followed that certain players were taking too much time at the table with all their summons (note arcane/divine don't have a restriction)(CompPsi aslo introduced several new summoning powers, mind you).

The other reason was that Wilders would summon one's too powerful. The nerf actually does nothing for that problem.

This is at least the logic I've heard. Hopefully someone can back me up.
The_One_Who_Walks
03-07-07, 09:04 PM The Lurk is eh... I much prefer the Psionic Rogue from Mind's Eye. Ebon Saint I've not read, so I can't pass judgement one way or the other. the Zerth Cenobite I like in theory, but not practice. The idea was interesting, but it didn't seem like the abilities had much to do with the concept of the class, and were less than impressive in any case. That all, however, is neither here nor there.

Only one at a time, hmm? Interesting... I now understand the problem, I think... I suppose I could see that being ok, so long as they apply the same rule to Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, ect... Honestly, though, I think it'd be a little ridiculious even if they applied it across the board, which they don't seem to have done. I've never been a big user of Astral Construct, but... I have used summoned monsters fairly frequently, and half the appeal of bringing temporary minions into the fray is many of them. A swarm (6) of celestial owls onced quite littlerally saved my party's collective life. One wouldn't have even postponed it.

Ok, so.

Bad call, WotC. Bad call.
SlanderPanic
03-07-07, 10:16 PM Don't think of the lurk as a rogue. He isn't one and can't keep up with a rogue in the rogue's traditional roles. What he is is a psionic assassin, a dedicated stealth-killer and infiltrator who focuses on a specific cause.

In the games I run, long before Complete Psionic came out, I nerfed summon spells so that a character could only have one active at a time. Cast a new summon, the creatures summoned by the previous one go home. (I also use the specific creatures variant. If the cleric summons Snuffles the Celestial Dire Badger and sends Snuffles to die in an unpleasant and unnecessary way, he won't come next time the cleric casts the spell.)

The practical reason behind this is that the cleric's player was an idiot who would never have been able to manage the vast menageries he envisioned himself commanding.

Anyway. Astral construct is a full-round power. Leaving yourself vulnerable to attacks for an entire round is a big enough weakness to more than compensate for the possibility of a wilder cranking it up or filling the battlefield with them. I don't use the CPsi nerf.
Asadeseth
03-07-07, 11:39 PM As I understand it the AC nerf was supposed to be added to all summonings, not just the psionic one, as of the Complete Mage release, as you'll note it wasen't.
cymbolik
03-08-07, 04:51 AM ...summoned by the previous one go home. (I also use the specific creatures variant. If the cleric summons Snuffles the Celestial Dire Badger and sends Snuffles to die in an unpleasant and unnecessary way, he won't come next time the cleric casts the spell.)...
Really a conversation for the magic board, but really what would happen is that Snuffles is unavailable for 24hrs.
SlanderPanic
03-08-07, 10:38 AM The point is that, in my campaigns, each summon spell creates a contract between the caster and a specific creature or group of creatures. The creatures agree to serve the caster faithfully for a short time in exchange for the magical energy of the spell. If those creatures are abused, they have the option of not answering when called. This is both to make the player use his summons more wisely and to inject some roleplaying into it.

It's one thing to say, "I summon three hippogriffs." It's another thing entirely to say, "In the name of Kord, I call forth Kitzia the Swift, Fontaine the Brave, and Alacritus the Bold, Captains of the Seventh Hippogriff Legion of Celestia!" and then be able to refer to them by name, rather than "Hippogriff 1," "Hippogriff 2," and "Hippogriff 3." It requires a bit more bookkeeping, but I think it's a lot more fun.
cymbolik
03-08-07, 11:39 AM Oh, I agree with you 100% in that regard.
I was just pointing out that by the way this particular optional rule is written, "death" of a specific summoned creature results in it not being available to be summoned for a 24hr period.

Now that you've explained your house rule in more detail there's not much more I can say about it. Carry on.
;)
PrinceCurtis
03-08-07, 06:57 PM My bad i didn't mention to turn this in to a Complete Psionic opinion thread concerning the Lurk vs. Psionic Rogue. But yeah the Rouge is still the better skill monkey, but the Lurk is good for killing things in annoying ways.
Fargren
03-08-07, 07:03 PM But yeah the Rouge is still the better skill monkey

I know black lipstick has whale sperm in it (true fact), but I wasn't aware rouge had monkeys.
Ryuu_Tenshi
03-08-07, 07:39 PM off topic, but...
I know black lipstick has whale sperm in it (true fact), but I wasn't aware rouge had monkeys.
...
......
you... ju...

...

*IS SO GLAD HER EMO PHASE LASTED LIKE A DAY*
...
*STILL WORE BLACK LIPSTICK THAT DAY x.X*
... seriously, how am I going to costume as an undead now? I'll have to use other sorts of makeup. ghaaaa.
SlanderPanic
03-08-07, 10:39 PM You could always punch yourself in the mouth until your lips bruise purple-black.
KurenaiYami
03-09-07, 01:49 AM Thread has become awesome.
TheDarkLord
03-09-07, 02:22 AM I know black lipstick has whale sperm in it (true fact), but I wasn't aware rouge had monkeys.

One of the A shift women is big into the Goth scene, I'm going to tell her about it but I'm afraid she might not care or give a damn knowing how screwed up those people are.

On topic, the Astral Construct Nerf was totally uncalled for and when I read it, I personally chucked the book at the wall behind the table. I was ticked needless to say.
Fargren
03-09-07, 12:38 PM I'm not sure if all black lipsticks have it, I know one a friend of mine used did. It was right there in the Ingredients list. He spent a long time wondering how they obtained it.
PrinceCurtis
03-09-07, 05:27 PM A guy with lipstick? Anyway....

On topic, the Astral Construct Nerf was totally uncalled for and when I read it, I personally chucked the book at the wall behind the table. I was ticked needless to say.

Darn dude. You need to be put in a group for D&D suplement abuse.
:)
The Livewire
03-09-07, 07:52 PM A guy with lipstick? Anyway....

Darn dude. You need to be put in a group for D&D suplement abuse.
:)

Only if we can put the comp psi writers/editors in a room for D&D player abuse. :D
TheDarkLord
03-09-07, 08:09 PM Only if we can put the comp psi writers/editors in a room for D&D player abuse. :D

Seconded :D.

I just happen to Love Psionics, and one of the main reasons why I banned the Sorcerer in my game. The Psion pulled off the feel of a spontaneous caster much better. When the CPsi came out I was exstatic, then I read it. Needless to say we use very little out of that book.
SlanderPanic
03-10-07, 10:52 AM Only if we can put the comp psi writers/editors in a room for D&D player abuse. :D

Why do you wanna hurt Bruce like that?
Bacris
03-10-07, 12:20 PM I'd say the editors deserve more than Bruce, but Bruce does deserve a healthy smack in the arse for some of what's in CPsi. either him or Christopher, whichever of them wrote the horribly flavored portions :p
Asadeseth
03-10-07, 01:52 PM But there as so few decent parts to the book Bracis.
PrinceCurtis
03-12-07, 03:23 PM Well it does have some good parts. I suppose we're just too psi-crazy to be fully happy. Dazzling Energy (the feat) for instance, it has no save that's awesome.

I also still think there's good reason for sorcerors to exist in a game with psychics. Then again, I not only count the as too magic and psionic as coming from two different sources i also count them separate. I only use psi-mag transprancy (sp? kicks self) when the magic or power is really strong.
gimby
03-12-07, 03:41 PM <tangent>

Was it possible that the "Whale Sperm" was in fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermaceti (Spermaceti)?
Fargren
03-12-07, 06:09 PM It's a definite possibility.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_One_Who_Walks 03-07-07, 08:35 PM	ok, I do not have Comeplete Psionic. I've spent time in my local Borders reading parts of it, and frankly, the only thing I like is the Ardent, so I've not seen the need to spend money on it. However, I've been reading around, and I keep seeing referneces to the "Astral Construct nerf", particularly in threads to do with CP itself. I have no idea, however, what this nerf is. As widly reviled as it seems to be, I almost consider myself better off, but I confess I'm now curious. What did WotC do to decimate AC so throughly?
PrinceCurtis 03-07-07, 08:42 PM	You don't like the Lurk? IMO it's the best class in there, with the Ebon Saint to best PrC. I also like the Zerth Cenobite and Soulbow. But anyway I thought this was a Armor Class question cause you used AC. The reason pwople don't like it is it takes away the ability to make multiple ones at the same time.
Artector 03-07-07, 09:00 PM	They limited you to one at a time. The logic followed that certain players were taking too much time at the table with all their summons (note arcane/divine don't have a restriction)(CompPsi aslo introduced several new summoning powers, mind you). The other reason was that Wilders would summon one's too powerful. The nerf actually does nothing for that problem. This is at least the logic I've heard. Hopefully someone can back me up.
The_One_Who_Walks 03-07-07, 09:04 PM	The Lurk is eh... I much prefer the Psionic Rogue from Mind's Eye. Ebon Saint I've not read, so I can't pass judgement one way or the other. the Zerth Cenobite I like in theory, but not practice. The idea was interesting, but it didn't seem like the abilities had much to do with the concept of the class, and were less than impressive in any case. That all, however, is neither here nor there. Only one at a time, hmm? Interesting... I now understand the problem, I think... I suppose I could see that being ok, so long as they apply the same rule to Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, ect... Honestly, though, I think it'd be a little ridiculious even if they applied it across the board, which they don't seem to have done. I've never been a big user of Astral Construct, but... I have used summoned monsters fairly frequently, and half the appeal of bringing temporary minions into the fray is many of them. A swarm (6) of celestial owls onced quite littlerally saved my party's collective life. One wouldn't have even postponed it. Ok, so. Bad call, WotC. Bad call.
SlanderPanic 03-07-07, 10:16 PM	Don't think of the lurk as a rogue. He isn't one and can't keep up with a rogue in the rogue's traditional roles. What he is is a psionic assassin, a dedicated stealth-killer and infiltrator who focuses on a specific cause. In the games I run, long before Complete Psionic came out, I nerfed summon spells so that a character could only have one active at a time. Cast a new summon, the creatures summoned by the previous one go home. (I also use the specific creatures variant. If the cleric summons Snuffles the Celestial Dire Badger and sends Snuffles to die in an unpleasant and unnecessary way, he won't come next time the cleric casts the spell.) The practical reason behind this is that the cleric's player was an idiot who would never have been able to manage the vast menageries he envisioned himself commanding. Anyway. Astral construct is a full-round power. Leaving yourself vulnerable to attacks for an entire round is a big enough weakness to more than compensate for the possibility of a wilder cranking it up or filling the battlefield with them. I don't use the CPsi nerf.
Asadeseth 03-07-07, 11:39 PM	As I understand it the AC nerf was supposed to be added to all summonings, not just the psionic one, as of the Complete Mage release, as you'll note it wasen't.
cymbolik 03-08-07, 04:51 AM	...summoned by the previous one go home. (I also use the specific creatures variant. If the cleric summons Snuffles the Celestial Dire Badger and sends Snuffles to die in an unpleasant and unnecessary way, he won't come next time the cleric casts the spell.)... Really a conversation for the magic board, but really what would happen is that Snuffles is unavailable for 24hrs.
SlanderPanic 03-08-07, 10:38 AM	The point is that, in my campaigns, each summon spell creates a contract between the caster and a specific creature or group of creatures. The creatures agree to serve the caster faithfully for a short time in exchange for the magical energy of the spell. If those creatures are abused, they have the option of not answering when called. This is both to make the player use his summons more wisely and to inject some roleplaying into it. It's one thing to say, "I summon three hippogriffs." It's another thing entirely to say, "In the name of Kord, I call forth Kitzia the Swift, Fontaine the Brave, and Alacritus the Bold, Captains of the Seventh Hippogriff Legion of Celestia!" and then be able to refer to them by name, rather than "Hippogriff 1," "Hippogriff 2," and "Hippogriff 3." It requires a bit more bookkeeping, but I think it's a lot more fun.
cymbolik 03-08-07, 11:39 AM	Oh, I agree with you 100% in that regard. I was just pointing out that by the way this particular optional rule is written, "death" of a specific summoned creature results in it not being available to be summoned for a 24hr period. Now that you've explained your house rule in more detail there's not much more I can say about it. Carry on. ;)
PrinceCurtis 03-08-07, 06:57 PM	My bad i didn't mention to turn this in to a Complete Psionic opinion thread concerning the Lurk vs. Psionic Rogue. But yeah the Rouge is still the better skill monkey, but the Lurk is good for killing things in annoying ways.
Fargren 03-08-07, 07:03 PM	But yeah the Rouge is still the better skill monkey I know black lipstick has whale sperm in it (true fact), but I wasn't aware rouge had monkeys.
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-08-07, 07:39 PM	off topic, but... I know black lipstick has whale sperm in it (true fact), but I wasn't aware rouge had monkeys. ... ...... you... ju... ... IS SO GLAD HER EMO PHASE LASTED LIKE A DAY ... STILL WORE BLACK LIPSTICK THAT DAY x.X ... seriously, how am I going to costume as an undead now? I'll have to use other sorts of makeup. ghaaaa.
SlanderPanic 03-08-07, 10:39 PM	You could always punch yourself in the mouth until your lips bruise purple-black.
KurenaiYami 03-09-07, 01:49 AM	Thread has become awesome.
TheDarkLord 03-09-07, 02:22 AM	I know black lipstick has whale sperm in it (true fact), but I wasn't aware rouge had monkeys. One of the A shift women is big into the Goth scene, I'm going to tell her about it but I'm afraid she might not care or give a damn knowing how screwed up those people are. On topic, the Astral Construct Nerf was totally uncalled for and when I read it, I personally chucked the book at the wall behind the table. I was ticked needless to say.
Fargren 03-09-07, 12:38 PM	I'm not sure if all black lipsticks have it, I know one a friend of mine used did. It was right there in the Ingredients list. He spent a long time wondering how they obtained it.
PrinceCurtis 03-09-07, 05:27 PM	A guy with lipstick? Anyway.... On topic, the Astral Construct Nerf was totally uncalled for and when I read it, I personally chucked the book at the wall behind the table. I was ticked needless to say. Darn dude. You need to be put in a group for D&D suplement abuse. :)
The Livewire 03-09-07, 07:52 PM	A guy with lipstick? Anyway.... Darn dude. You need to be put in a group for D&D suplement abuse. :) Only if we can put the comp psi writers/editors in a room for D&D player abuse. :D
TheDarkLord 03-09-07, 08:09 PM	Only if we can put the comp psi writers/editors in a room for D&D player abuse. :D Seconded :D. I just happen to Love Psionics, and one of the main reasons why I banned the Sorcerer in my game. The Psion pulled off the feel of a spontaneous caster much better. When the CPsi came out I was exstatic, then I read it. Needless to say we use very little out of that book.
SlanderPanic 03-10-07, 10:52 AM	Only if we can put the comp psi writers/editors in a room for D&D player abuse. :D Why do you wanna hurt Bruce like that?
Bacris 03-10-07, 12:20 PM	I'd say the editors deserve more than Bruce, but Bruce does deserve a healthy smack in the arse for some of what's in CPsi. either him or Christopher, whichever of them wrote the horribly flavored portions :p
Asadeseth 03-10-07, 01:52 PM	But there as so few decent parts to the book Bracis.
PrinceCurtis 03-12-07, 03:23 PM	Well it does have some good parts. I suppose we're just too psi-crazy to be fully happy. Dazzling Energy (the feat) for instance, it has no save that's awesome. I also still think there's good reason for sorcerors to exist in a game with psychics. Then again, I not only count the as too magic and psionic as coming from two different sources i also count them separate. I only use psi-mag transprancy (sp? kicks self) when the magic or power is really strong.
gimby 03-12-07, 03:41 PM	<tangent> Was it possible that the "Whale Sperm" was in fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermaceti (Spermaceti)?
Fargren 03-12-07, 06:09 PM	It's a definite possibility.