Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dumas_drift 01-04-08, 09:55 AM	Hello psionics board! I want to run an all psionics campaign as my last hurrah of 3.5 edition, and I am trying to establish my list of available races and classes. I think that I have a decent mix of classes ready, but the races are really stumping me. I want to run a secret war type of scenario between quori (Eberron)/qael (Dreamscarred) type dream enemies and my player characters. I want to focus on the ideas of ever-present danger, paranoia, and fear. I plan on having dreamscapes and dream traveling be a part of the campaign. (I can't wait to use the Quori Nightmare and the Undersense (Dreamscarred) villains that I have had rattling around in my head) So, my two main concerns for races are that I want them to appear for the most part human and I want them to be as balanced as possible. As much as I love Dromites and Gith, they are very conspicuous and do not lend themselves to the Shadow War type of campaign that I am envisioning. So, my list of Races so far includes: Elan Human Kalashtar Maenad Synad Xeph Is this enough variance in the races? Are any of them way overpowered as written? Way underpowered? Also, if all of the other races (but human) are given the Kalashtar's 1pp/level ability rather than their own weaker version, what would you give the Kalashtar to compensate? My initial thoughts are for an actual "soulknife" type ability in which they gain a dagger form of the mindblade which they are proficient in. I like this since the soulknife seems like a ubiquitous item to the Kalashtar, and their Inspired cousins. I plan on using the soulknife as a feat chain concept anyway, so this seems like it might have merit. Any thoughts? As far as classes go, I think I have a fairly decent mix, and I don't feel that I have any horrible options. I have 5 classes that either come with or have the option of gaining trapfinding. My distribution of full manifesters to half manifesters to non manifesters is 5/6/6 with the Artificer (psionic) being an odd man out. I also plan on using the souknife as a feat chain concept, as well as a psi-thief as a feat chain concept that I homebrewed. I want to avoid Bo9S classes, not because I dislike them, but because I want to keep the main focus of the campaign on psionics. So here is the list I plan on using. Ardent Artificer (psionic) Barbarian Erudite Fighter (homebrew variant) Lurk Marksman (Dreamscarred Press) Morphean (Dreamscarred Press) Psion Psychic Rogue (WOTC Mind's Eye) Psychic Warrior Ranger (non-spellcasting/no animal companion variant from Iron Kingdoms) Rogue Scout Society Mind (Dreamscarred Press) Swashbuckler Thoughtsinger (From Keith Baker's site) Wilder (homebrew variant) I can go into more detail about the homebrew variants if you want, but I am mainly looking to see if anyone sees any major holes. I have not even begun to consider PrCs yet, and hope to only have to consider them on a 1 for 1 basis if my players bring them up to me. I hope to have this all ironed out by the time I sit down with my players to generate characters, so any help offered will be greatly appreciated.
jbsaff 01-04-08, 11:06 AM	One note on races: Feel free to allow the mechanics, even if you override the flavor or description. For example, in my group we are running a "psionics is normal, magic is weird" campaign. We have a brother/sister pair; one is using the Xeph race and the other is using a Wood Elf. Our DM wanted to keep stuff similar to core races, so these two are from a certain elf village known for speed and strength. If memory serves me right, you basically have two classes listed to fulfill a healing role: ardent and society mind (if I missed one, it's because I'm limited to SRD and DSP). Depending on your starting level and party configuration, you might consider making Body Adjustment a second level power on the Society Mind list. Consider how this will effect your game, especially later on, but it may make the Society Mind a better healer if that's all you have.
Bacris 01-04-08, 11:28 AM	Reading this post made me grin ear to ear, seeing the classes you're going to use. :) As for your questions: You could use for the Kalashtar the Xeph Soulknife specialty level feature - it does like you mention, a mind blade option. As for the soulknife as feats option - I have something coming out soon that might help with that concept, just FYI :) I also have a healer base class (society mind variant) that is just entering playtesting, as jbsaff mentions, that's a hole you need to fill. If you're interested in giving it a shot, send me a PM. Overall, I really like the concept of the game and hope it works out well for you!
The_Mess 01-04-08, 11:37 AM	Whether a race stands out is largely a function of how many of them there are. Do Dromites stand out more than Maenads? Not really. They're both obviously not human (the presumed standard). They're both obviously what they are. If Dromites are a common species, then they aren't going to stand out, they'll just be another Dromite. And, unless the shadow war is divided by races, you won't know what side any one dromite is on. I wouldn't leave them out for looking less human than Maenads. Similarly, go ahead and include the Thri-kreen, Blues, and Gith. Just make sure they're a part of the culture and they won't stand out at all.
jbsaff 01-04-08, 12:00 PM	I also have a healer base class (society mind variant) that is just entering playtesting, as jbsaff mentions, that's a hole you need to fill. My DM is very happy. Very, very happy. But I guess that would make my current Society Mind slightly redundant. Soulbinder is looking more interesting all the time...
dumas_drift 01-04-08, 12:03 PM	I absolutely love Dreamscarred's stuff, and I own EVERYthing in PDF form so far. I am looking at getting Untapped Potential in print soon, but might need to talk to you in private about that. That being said: I was thinking of the Xeph soulknife substitute when I suggested it as an option because I don't feel that a non-upgradeable dagger that takes a move action to draw is any more game breaking than a maenad's sonic energy ray or a half giant's stomp. (but it sure is fun) I am acutely aware of your mindblade as feats option, and I am using the prototypes from this board for now until the next section of Mind Unveiled is released. I have been waiting for Mind Unveiled since it's inital announcement as I am a major Quori freak, and I was sure the the stuff would be infinitely useable by me. The mindblade as feats options also inspired me to make a homebrew psi-thief as feats, since I like the flavor of the spell thief, but the psi-thief substitutions are gimped. I am aware that healing might be a problem, and I have been looking at other options. Some mundane options (i.e. potions, salves, other such things to make up some of the difference, also, Secrets of Sarlona has some interesting mold/lichen options, and the idea of healing agents being addicting appeals to me) Also, one of the Egoist substitutions from the Mind's Eye gives them more healing potential. I would include the Factotum and the Warlock as available classes since I love both of them mechanically, but the idea of changing all of their abilities that reference spells out for psionic equivilents makes my head spin. (I felt the same way about the Artificer, and just decided to keep the infusions as is, though I wish there was a real psionic artificer) I also wouldn't be adverse to the monk, but I'd like a more psionic flavored monk, and I am patiently waiting for Dreamscarred's take on it. I thought about adding martial adepts, as the Crusader alone would be more than enough healing for a group, but as soon as I throw in a martial adept class, everyone in my group wants to play one. :P I also considered using a Reserve Points style system like in Iron Heroes, and may yet stick with that option (though it only covers out of combat healing) So, other than healing, are there any gaps? Also, are there any other near human races that I could add? I am trying to stay away from level adjustments overall however. Edit - I'm running this campaign in an almost exclusively human campaign world, to the point where any nonhuman PCs will likely have to be able to pretend be human to avoid angry mobs. I'm doing this to further highlight the alien nature of the Quori/Qael/Nameless Fear, and to make the PCs work in manners similar to their enemies. I'm envisioning a highly spy/counterspy type of affair that normal mortals don't even realize is going on. Calling it a Masquerade might make it easier to understand. ;)
The_Mess 01-04-08, 03:16 PM	Edit - I'm running this campaign in an almost exclusively human campaign world, to the point where any nonhuman PCs will likely have to be able to pretend be human to avoid angry mobs. I'm doing this to further highlight the alien nature of the Quori/Qael/Nameless Fear, and to make the PCs work in manners similar to their enemies. I'm envisioning a highly spy/counterspy type of affair that normal mortals don't even realize is going on. Calling it a Masquerade might make it easier to understand. ;) Maenads and Xeph can't pretend to be humans either. There are three races from Magic of Icarnum that could pretend to be humans with the right clothing. While not psionic per se, they could fit in. Azurins are born to humans as "mutations", but the whites of their eyes are bright blue. My first thought was to have one pretending to be blind to disguise this. Two other races are slightly reptilian, with one having scales on their forearms and neck and another have spikes on the forearms, lower-leg, and back. The spines can be folded, so either can be disguised with clothing. I can't remember the names right now, but I can look them up if you care. While they aren't specifically psionic, the one reptilian race actually has knowledge related abilities, so would fit in pretty well. The Kuresh from If Thoughts Could Kill could work. They're humans, but for a third-eye and psionic to boot. In fact, if they wear a third eye as a magic item, they're basically indistinguishable from any other human wearing one. Another option might be the Illumians from Races of Destiny. Just rule that their sigils don't appear unless they're being actively used or something and they'll be easily able to pass for humans. Also, check out the bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) from Unearthed Arcana. There's no set description for how they might physically manifest their traits, so some (all?) of them could pass for humans.
dumas_drift 01-04-08, 03:58 PM	You're thinking of the Skarn and the Rilkin. Those two races might work very well actually if retooled to be psionic rather than incarnum focused. I always thought of Maenads as sparkly humans repressing a great anger and Xeph as slight, dark, lithe humans. I never really thought that either's appearance seemed a radical departure from a normal human's especially considering their artwork. Maybe I just haven't been looking at them correctly, I'll look into them more when I get home. And I totally forgot about the Kuresh! That's a great idea, and they are so included. Thanks for the suggestions!
Bacris 01-04-08, 04:33 PM	It depends on which style of Xeph you go with. One looks decidedly human, another has a very alien feel to it (for example, the Xeph pictures in Complete Psionic are decidedly alien in feel).
The_Mess 01-07-08, 01:34 PM	Ooo, I forgot about Changelings and Dopplegangers. What more do you want from "looks human" and "spreads paranoia"?
InkBlot 01-07-08, 02:47 PM	It depends on which style of Xeph you go with. One looks decidedly human, another has a very alien feel to it (for example, the Xeph pictures in Complete Psionic are decidedly alien in feel). Xephs look at least as different from humans as Elves do; they have pointy ears. Unfortunately, the only xeph that ever shows up in art is Xerxes, so it's a little hard to determine what's a racial feature and what's just his personal fashion. The description of Xephs in the XPH is also rather lacking. It doesn't even mention their pointy ears (which makes me wonder if it was something that was just inserted by the artist). http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80512.jpg Xephs seem to have Pointy Ears No Eyebrows Blank green eyes Elongated heads Monkey faces Lanky Limbs The eyebrows could have been shaved off. He shaves his head, and his beard (if xephs can grow beards). So why not his eyebrows? The green eyes could just represent the psionic power welling up inside of him. Xerxes is only a soulknife, so he can't be manifesting a power with a visual display. If it's just generic psionic glow, then it's a racial feature because all Xephs are psionic. The only question is whether or not his eyes are always green, or only when he's using a psionic ability. The only picture of him where he's not using some sort of psionic ability, is in black&white (in the races section of the XPH). Xerxes' elongated head and monkey face could just be him. It's certainly not outside of the range of appearances for humans. There could easily be Xephs who have faces which are cherubic and round. On the other hand, look at elves. All elves have a certain shape to their heads, and a narrow face. Xephs have long graceful limbs. That's known for certain, because it's in the physical description of Xephs from the XPH. P.S.; Anybody else just now notice that Xeph is XPH with an E stuck in there? Coincidence? Pun? Conspiracy?
Bacris 01-07-08, 03:04 PM	True, but compare that to the Xephs in Complete Psionic, who are much more cartoonish in nature (in particular, the Dazzling Power feat - I think that's the one, and the Transdimensional Power feat illustrations).
InkBlot 01-07-08, 03:25 PM	Those are (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cpsi_gallery/96358.jpg) dromites (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cpsi_gallery/96354.jpg). There are only five pictures of Xephs. 1 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80512.jpg) 2 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cpsi_gallery/96359.jpg) 3 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cpsi_gallery/96357.jpg) 4 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80449.jpg) 5 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80443.jpg)
Bacris 01-07-08, 07:49 PM	Hrm, weird... wonder why I thought they were Xephs... Ah well.
MnemonicSV 01-08-08, 01:36 AM	Don't overlook your NPCs Dumas! Not all of your NPCs are going to have a base PC class... Most will be commoners, experts, warriors, or nobles. However, since there are no "adepts" in an all-psionic campaign, you will have to use a psionic version. I know there is one out there.. but the name and book escapes me at the moment. Was it called an Auger? Augurist? Something like that I think. I just can't remember. Somebody... help me out here.
jbsaff 01-08-08, 02:09 AM	http://s93766105.onlinehome.us/xray/AugerMotivator.jpg There ya go!
MnemonicSV 01-08-08, 02:22 AM	There ya go! Thanks!
Bacris 01-08-08, 07:23 AM	:dancin: Nice
dumas_drift 01-08-08, 01:43 PM	I definitely plan on using the Auger and the other NPC classes, just not as those available for players. I'm mostly trying to get a "rules" guide together so that the players know what their options are since they are interested in psionics, but most of them have never even seen them in an actual game. (too many psionics are sci-fi people around here) Changelings were a race that I considered, and I absolutely love Eberron, so they might very well make it in. It would be neat to have another non-psionic race in the mix. At the very least the Egoist substitution that gives them a changeling's shapeshift ability is going in as an option, so if anyone bites on that we may just bring the changelings out. I am now loving the idea of a changeling masquerading as an Inspired (afterall, they share the ability to be multiple people physically with one constant consciousness), and recalling all of the fluff about changelings in Reidra. Changelings are in. I agree on the Xephs, considering that Xerxes is the only one that we see, it's hard to ascertain a race's look from one example. If an alien race saw me, they'd be sure that all humans are fair skinned and dark haired, and are shorter than most elves and barely taller than most dwarves. I think that being the case, Xerxes (other than the green eyes and pointed ears which could be hidden if necessary) looks to be very much in the bounds of human appearance. If other Xephs look more human than him, than any concerns of them "passing" as human are pretty unfounded. So, is there anything else that I am missing race or class wise? (I am painfully aware of the lack of healing issue which I might solve through other means) Also, one of my players wants to be a monk, citing the overabundance of psionic/monk hybrid PrCs as his main reason. (I think that he just wants to use the ascetic psion and tashalatora feats) While I love the idea in theory, the monk class is such a cobbled together thing that it makes my head hurt. (I'm tempted to make him play an unarmed swordsage variant instead of the PHB monk) I know that Dreamscarred planned on releasing a psionic flavored monk, and I just wanted you to know that there is at least one DM and one player eagerly awaiting it. I suspect that there are more than that given the massive amount of monk/psionics crossover present in the fluff.
The_Mess 01-08-08, 02:13 PM	Swordsage can be done well unarmed, and is much better balanced than monk, in my opinion. Offer to make the tashalatora feat available to swordsages and see if he bites. If he wants to go unarmored, maybe swap out the Swordsage's "Quick to act" and armor profiency for the monk's AC adjustment.
Bacris 01-08-08, 02:22 PM	I know that Dreamscarred planned on releasing a psionic flavored monk, and I just wanted you to know that there is at least one DM and one player eagerly awaiting it. I suspect that there are more than that given the massive amount of monk/psionics crossover present in the fluff. I'll keep that in mind once I move on to the next project :) Mechanics-wise, it's done, it's just in editing and layout.
jbsaff 01-08-08, 02:57 PM	Hoorah! Hoorah! Hoorah! Three cheers!
InkBlot 01-08-08, 04:06 PM	Swordsage can be done well unarmed, and is much better balanced than monk, in my opinion. Offer to make the tashalatora feat available to swordsages and see if he bites. If he wants to go unarmored, maybe swap out the Swordsage's "Quick to act" and armor profiency for the monk's AC adjustment. Swordsages, really ToB in general, has integrated psionics far better than the PHB Monk. Swordsages have access to Diamond Mind maneuvers, which often require a Concentration check, which any psionic creature can "take 15" on by expending psionic focus. The flavor of the Swordsage is very close to that of the Psychic Warrior or the Ardent, especially the Diamond Mind discipline, which almost got a psionic prestige class in the book. The Psychic Renewal feat allows a Swordsage to recover a maneuver as a swift action by expending focus and paying powerpoints equal to the maneuvers level. The Sudden Clarity feat allows a Swordsage to attempt to become psionically focused as a swift action after successfully using a maneuver. With the way ToB classes multiclass (1/2 your non-ToB class levels count towards your initiator level), mixing Crusader, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Ardent, Warblade, and Lurk achieves interesting and viable results. My personal favorite is the Crusader/Psywar who uses expansion and Devoted Spirit to become a giant iron umbrella of safety for his party.
Subtle 01-09-08, 03:23 AM	Now that Dreamscarred people are in this thread, One of you should write some Psionics/Tome of Battle combination stuff... I doubt you will, with tome of battle not being ogl, but, putting in a request don't hurt!
dumas_drift 01-09-08, 12:22 PM	Now, I am at a slightly different point in my musings. I have my final list of races and their origins in the setting as follows: Human - Predominant race of the whole world Rilkin - Descendant of the Mishtai, created in the ritual that separated the dream world from the real world and ended their conflict with the Dream Quori Skarn - Descendant of the Mishtai, created in the ritual that separated the dream world from the real world and ended their conflict with the Dream Quori Synad - Thrown from their home in the dream world by the Nightmare Quori after the turn of the age Kalashtar - Rebel Quori that joined with humans to escape the Nightmare Elan - Failed Quori experiment in creating suitable hosts, is now a process used by the Quori to reward mortal subordinates and punish offending Quori Changeling - Failed Quori experiment in creating suitable hosts, now used as spies and assassins, ranked only after Inspired in the Quori run society Maenad - Humans that allied with the Dream Quori against the Mishtai before the last turning of the age, their great anger began when their tie to the Dream Quori was severed and they became a plague upon the land until they learned control Xeph - ? Kuresh - ? Illumians - ? So, in this setting I've decided to use the mysterious progenitor race for the Skarn and Rilkin as the ancient Quori enemy, rather than the Giants as it is in Eberron. This allowed me to add them into those two races into the setting, and provided a good backdrop for the Quori's old war. With the Synad I am using some of their fluff, and changing some aspects of it. I am making the Synad's lost homeworld the realm of dreams, and I am making them the first conquered race in the Nightmare Quori's bid for power. Eventually, they made it to the real world, and it was their familiarity with the subtleties of the threefold mind that allowed them to later aid the Quori rebels that would become the Kalashtar in escaping the Quori persecution. I am keeping the Elan's as Quori experiments angle found in the Eberron Player's Companion because it ties them more into the setting. I also figure that the Quori, like all thrifty people, would found a use for their failures, and so kept the process around, just in case any more Quori rebelled, and I like the thought of mortals that are devoted to the Quori cause being given Elan-hood as a reward for service. Plus, giving a newly created Elan an opportunity to "redeem" themselves for their past crimes seems like it could make for some powerful roleplaying. Imagine atoning for past crimes that you only partially remember from a lifetime ago. The Changelings as experiments uses the idea from Secret of Sarlona that any creature with a mutable form would earn the Quori's respect. I also find it eminently logical for the Quori to be experimenting with creatures that are known to have psionic abilities naturally, and with a mutable form being a plus, Doppelgangers as test subjects seemed like a good bet. The Maenad are a drastic change from the core material, and I hope to get some peoples' opinions on this. I see the Maenads as humans that allied with the Dream Quori against the Mishtai. They developed a bond with the old Quori that allowed them to become a psionic race. Unfortunately, when the Mishtai separated the Plane of Dreams from the rest of reality, the Maenads lost their connection and this drove them insane. I envision a great time of darkness in the Maenads' history in which they literally destroyed their own civilization in ravening bands. Any ideas for any of the other races? I'm still working, but I would certainly appreciate help from the excellent group here on the psionics board.
The_Mess 01-09-08, 03:00 PM	I like the Maenid idea, myself. Illumians could be rethemed as having dream fragments instead of power-words. Perhaps they're the descendents of humans who were dreaming when the world's separated and they still have pieces with them. If I remember correctly (someone can correct me if I'm not), the Naga from the oriental setting (snake tails, humanoid bodies, not the human-headed snakes from the MM) could transform into human and had a connection to the "Akashic Field" which could easily be re-flavored into a connection with the Dream, possibly another Mishtai experiment. Xeph feel to me like humans trained by the Kalashtar, possibly with the idea of making good hosts, but which they ended up being unable to use after being firmly bound to their own line of descent. I'm not sure how the timing of that would work, though. Kuresh could be a group of human mystics who sought to reconnect with the dream world after it's severing and changed by their attempt. That works for the Illumians as well, actually.
SkipSandwich 01-18-08, 08:25 PM	I actually like using the Divine Mind class as a psionic anolog to the paladin and/or bard, as it fills both classes roles well enough in their absence that a player that wanted to be a paladin or bard could just take levels in Divine Mind instead and just call themselves one of the above.:EDIT: D'oh! didn't see that you had the thoughtsinger listed up there, which is a much better class.
angellis_ater 02-16-08, 08:06 PM	Now that Dreamscarred people are in this thread, One of you should write some Psionics/Tome of Battle combination stuff... I doubt you will, with tome of battle not being ogl, but, putting in a request don't hurt! Well, first of all I think these kinds of suggestions would be best put forward at www.dreamscarredpress.com where we can answer them without breaching the CoC, but I can say as much as this - my mind has been there, all it takes now is to tear apart the rules enough :-)
Lycanthromancer 02-16-08, 08:56 PM	Allow incarnum, and give monks bonus incarnum feats. That'd make monks more interesting, more useful, and if you count soulstuff as the most basic form of psionic energy (and turn monk into a psionic class), then voila. Instant awesome. I heartily suggest incarnum. It segues well with psionics, y'know. :D