Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bacris 02-04-08, 03:15 PM	Hey folks, Angellis_ater and I are working on developing an all-psionic campaign setting. We've decided to go all-out in this aspect and not only remove arcane and divine magic, but also remove deities. Instead, we'd use psionic replacements (society mind, morphean, marksman, etc) for classes and godminds for the "greater entities" of the world. What we want to know is - what sort of things would the psionic community want to see in an all-psionic world?
Psionx 02-04-08, 04:26 PM	Factions, as in the disciplines of metacreativity and seers being factionalized. Some people have natural affinities for specific disciplines when they are born would be cool too.
TheKeyofE 02-04-08, 09:41 PM	Do you plan on having psionics be super common and well known, or vague and unknown? I would prefer the former. I think common and wide spread low psionics (a la Eberron's common low level magic) would be cool. I'm thinking Far Hand everything, and the specific example that came to mind is a horseless plow. Something else I would like: despite the removal of deities, I should like to see some kind of theology. What I mean is some sense of "higher power" or "universal consciousness" that is higher even than the godminds.
Caterpillar 02-04-08, 11:26 PM	Hey folks, Angellis_ater and I are working on developing an all-psionic campaign setting. We've decided to go all-out in this aspect and not only remove arcane and divine magic, but also remove deities. Instead, we'd use psionic replacements (society mind, morphean, marksman, etc) for classes and godminds for the "greater entities" of the world. What we want to know is - what sort of things would the psionic community want to see in an all-psionic world? I like the way you think! One thing I love about D&D is the multitude of deities, but not when there is an overwhelming amount. Can you be more specific with what you mean by godminds as greater entities? Some things I would like to see: With your lack of divine and arcane magic a neat idea would be that some psion communicates with a deity and brings about divine powers (magic). I know you just stated you wanted to remove deities but it would be an interesting idea to imagine how a world full of psions would act to a notion of these 'gods.' A lot, a lot of twists. With the ease of telepathic abilities it could really bring about some interesting intrigue. Elans by far are my favorite race. How would they relate to your idea of an all psionic-world? Maybe they are somewhat new and claim to be the next step in evolution and it could be that they are psionic versions of the Netherese (minus the shadowyness). Just a few thoughts for now.
Eldritch_Lord 02-04-08, 11:33 PM	One thing that would be interesting if many many many items were "intelligent"--not Intelligent with a capital "I" like the DMG version, but just can communicate telepathically, lift themselves (like a dancing item, but not for attacking), and have one very minor psi-like ability at will. This would give you a horseless plow like TheKeyOfE said (or dare I say, a horseless carriage? :D), bunches of familiar-like servant items, and so on.
TheKeyofE 02-05-08, 02:18 AM	One thing that would be interesting if many many many items were "intelligent"--not Intelligent with a capital "I" like the DMG version, but just can communicate telepathically, lift themselves (like a dancing item, but not for attacking), and have one very minor psi-like ability at will. This would give you a horseless plow like TheKeyOfE said (or dare I say, a horseless carriage? :D), bunches of familiar-like servant items, and so on. I approve of this idea :D
The_Mess 02-05-08, 02:42 AM	Some thoughts: First, try to avoid doing everything magic can do. Psionics has fairly well established holes, like poor healing and lousy resurrections. Filling all these holes in with new psioncis will just make the world feel like magic-renamed. Arcane natural phenomena make some sense, but psionics is primarily willful. Will the world have fantastic terrain? Will any such terrain have to have been specifically made rather than just occuring? Psions are pretty linked with intelligence. I don't mean just in game terms (where all caster classes have a link to the same three stats), but in terms of how it's generally perceived. Psionics is the power of your brain. I expect psiocracies would be a pretty common form of government, simply because of the general perception that people with powerful minds *ought* to be running things. I doubt such a society would welcome the undisciplined wilders... Given the huge number of D&D creatures that are magical in nature, some conversions of SRD magic beasts to psionic might be a good idea. Depending on how common psionics is, crime investigation and privacy issues might need examination. If cops can read minds, how common is this? How do non-psionics deal with the psionic element? Stopping a low-level wizard is fairly easy, just tie his hands and gag him. Stopping a psionicist is harder. Drugs that supress psionics seem almost mandatory for the setting. (I haven't read Countermeasures yet, so it's possible this is all covered already.)
InkBlot 02-05-08, 04:02 AM	First, try to avoid doing everything magic can do. Psionics has fairly well established holes, like poor healing and lousy resurrections. Filling all these holes in with new psioncis will just make the world feel like magic-renamed. I agree with this sentiment emphatically.
Bacris 02-05-08, 09:33 AM	Wow. These are all some excellent ideas. And a lot of responses, very cool! In particular, Angellis_ater and I had already determined that resurrection in this world would be limited to the psionic revivify power, period. And the theology based upon that - that once the mind leaves the body and where it goes. Since the traditional deities would be gone, the question becomes is it a soul or is it the conscious mind, or is it something else - we've had a few discussions on that religious / philosophical aspect, so I'm glad to see other folks want it. Countermeasures does have poisons and other low-cost items to hinder low-level manifesters, so that would probably be useful in this sort of campaign. As for if psionics is common or rare, think of a typical D&D campaign and how common "magic" is. Low-level magic is common, although not necessarily in the hands of every commoner. I think that's what we plan here - so the idea of a horseless plow (or carriage :P) might not be too out of line, although I wouldn't expect everyone to have it, either. One concern I have about leaving the poor healing in place is this becomes a pretty deadly world... I'm not sure if that's our intent or not. The ardent has decent (but not great) healing - that standard might be the best option so that healing is still available, just not quite as prevalent as typical wands of cure light wounds. Now, the concept of godminds from a d20 psionics perspective, for those who don't know, originated in Hyperconscious: Explorations in Psionics by Bruce Cordell. The idea in that book was a little "psionic x" in flavor, so I expanded on it and tried to make it a bit more unique in The Mind Divine, and that style of godmind is what we'll be using. So, extremely powerful psionic entities, but not utilizing the meddlesome aspect most pantheons in D&D worlds use. As for how many godminds... I'm not sure. We have an existing pantheon of godminds of around a dozen, I'm not sure if we'll expand that, cut it down, or keep around the same number. Caterpillar - let's just say - we have the same ideas when it comes to elan :D The concept of law enforcement / espionage in a world of telepathy is an intriguing idea... Counter-options are a must.
Magocrat 02-05-08, 11:50 AM	You may want to leave the debate on whether there are souls or conscious minds after the body dies. This opens up the opportunity for such debates in the campaign setting, which can put factions even sturdier in their place. It could take up the place of religious debates, or it could be a strain of topics on its own. Maybe each godmind has a specific stance? Also, the origin of the mental art is especially important. For Eberron, magic is the Draconic Prophecy, for Forgotten Realms, it is the Weave and the Shadow Weave. What lets people manifest powers in Third Dawn? Is 'The Impact' the origin, or was it merely a catalyst to the mind's potential? And if applicable, what keeps the power there? What about the material in the campaign setting? Will you take everything from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the big three and leave the rest, or will you go the Eberron way and say that everything (psionic) has a place in Ksaren? I can see that everything psionic has a niche, and 'The Impact' may have spawned the psionic aberrations (and not just the creature type). Finally, racial culture is a big issue. Which races will you include? The psionic races are (with the exception of dromites and thri-kreen) physically similar to humans. Do they share a common ancestor, and if so, how did they differentiate themselves? There's a lot of room for incredibly awesome explanations here, which can lend a unique racial identity, allowing players to really say "I'm a maenad pirate" and let others familiar with the setting know exactly what they're saying.
Lokiyn 02-05-08, 11:56 AM	I'd kind of like to see a place to fit the "lost kingdom" i've been working on in my free time. In short it was designed around the idea that at one point either in the present or the past a shaper created a portal on the material world and led a group of people into a new demiplane created by genesis, once there they used that demiplane as a staging ground and create demiplanes within that demiplanes ethereal (Using the pocket ethereal demiplane trait and the Protomatter substitution (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter4.pdf) feat). Linked together with unique portals designed to function without the astral (since the new planes would be sealed from such) Each demiplane became the foundation of a city state, since then this kingdom has led an existence entirely sealed off and unknown from the world they fled from. The Decedents have no knowledge of the original world outside of myths and legends told to children, the original demiplane still retains all the traps and guardians created to protect this secret world from the material but after [plot] time the guardians are failing and either a.) explorers from the material are discovering the demiplane, or b.) Explorers from the kingdoms are re-discovering the material. I envisioned that the hidden realms would be very heavy on shapers and nomads whose primary focus would be the manipulation of protomatter rather than ectoplasm (of course no real mechanical effect just a different flavor with maybe some unique traits.) I also had great success designing a system similar to the Ways from Robert Jordans books using modified psi-gates and demiplanes, creating a sort of cross between undermountain and the worlds serpent inn. Where adventures and commerce would span the world quickly but retaining the risks and encounters. (in practice the system was a loose collection of encounter sites that allowed multiple environments to come into play while shortening the over all time frame of journeys without lessening their subjective impact. For example a low level caravan mission might have one or two bandit attacks over a couple of weeks, while a higher level group using the "ways" (i called them nexi) would also have one or two attacks on a similar caravan, but the over all time would be within a couple of days and begin and end on different ends of a continent.) Short of shameless self promotion, the things i see in our local psi-only game that i want more of are cultures that are highly repressive of the "blind" and inversely cultures that are repressive of the "tainted", with either psi repressing non psi "for the greater good" or the other with psionic individuals taught from birth that their taint damns them but they are graciously employed by the state. One thing our local game does that i agree on is that the two ruling classes in the world are immortals. Elans and Psionic Lich(savant/mindborn/etc)'s are the open rulers of the governments, which only makes sense. Any immortal with even a benevolent desire to create an ordered society will inevitably rule, and baring massive screw ups rule for a long long time indeed. Edit One thing that i found interesting was the Psionic Glyph of warding, aside from its standard Uses, i noticed that the power allows for the creation of essentially free one shot magic items. Although limited to harmfull effects the power is incredibly useful none the less. Generally its best use has been two fold in my experience, as a "Snap" (basically a small wooden tube with a cap about the size of a stand alone eraser) and as a positive debuff. Snaps are generally emplaced in such a way as to cause a second individual to pop the top off, for example a small piece of string and two pins allows you to pin a snap to a door to that the person opening the door also opens the snap (by virtue of pulling off the cap). A few powers work as harmful effects that can also aid the user, for example a glyph of time hop can save your life. Or a Glyph of Dispel Psionics can save you from a debilitating effect. The glyphs provide a role similar to explosives and random potions and scrolls in many games. Psionic Claymores are a favorite trap, while Ectoplasmic cocoons provide a last ditch defense. My all time favorite use of a glyph was the time when we used a glyph of Telekinetic Thrust to launch ourselves across a chasm, at minimum they could launch a player 50 feet in any direction! Applied economically it would be nice to see such simple items and power products such as quintessence integrated into the "inventory" of a setting.
The_Mess 02-05-08, 02:14 PM	In particular, Angellis_ater and I had already determined that resurrection in this world would be limited to the psionic revivify power, period. Good. One thing I've never liked is how easy it is to overcome death. Of course, this makes the world much more dangerous, as the whole game is balanced for easily overcome dying by PCs. I'd suggest doing something like the recent 4e Death and Dying article, but it's not OGL at this point. As for if psionics is common or rare, think of a typical D&D campaign and how common "magic" is. Low-level magic is common, although not necessarily in the hands of every commoner. I think that's what we plan here - so the idea of a horseless plow (or carriage :P) might not be too out of line, although I wouldn't expect everyone to have it, either. I see a need for more psionic NPC classes. One concern I have about leaving the poor healing in place is this becomes a pretty deadly world... I'm not sure if that's our intent or not. The ardent has decent (but not great) healing - that standard might be the best option so that healing is still available, just not quite as prevalent as typical wands of cure light wounds. Well, the problem with that is you can't touch the ardent, of course. (Still, it would be nice if you *cough* left room for ardents, lurks and Synads.) I would suggest beefing up the heal and craft (herbalism) skills. Make "Poultice of cure light wounds" a non-magical, possibly slower, substitute for universally available clerics, but cheap and easily gotten resource. If you go this route, there should be a class (not a prestige class) that at least has those skills as class skills and can attack with herbal concoctions, even if it's not, itself a psionic class. (Though... why not? And now that I think about it, Egoists have heal as a class skill...) As for how many godminds... I'm not sure. We have an existing pantheon of godminds of around a dozen, I'm not sure if we'll expand that, cut it down, or keep around the same number. I like large pantheons, myself. You might take some cues from Eberron on religions in a world without meddlesome deities. Other thoughts: While converting arcane monsters to psionics, it might be worthwhile to convert some of the more common magic items, especially item abilities. Keep in mind what you're losing, class-wise. From the SRD alone, you're losing: Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers, and Wizards. All you're keeping are the Barbarian, Fighter (weak), Monk (really weak), Rogue, and the four psionic classes, plus the three (or more?) new Dreamscarred classes. Society Mind makes an adequate substitute for bard without even a hint of Psionic X, Marksman kinda-sorta subs in for half the people who want to play rangers (not to imply it is anything less than total win), and Morphean competes with the rogue. I'm afraid that sheer numbers are going to make the world feel less diverse just because there are far fewer base classes available. One class role that is currently unfilled is, what do you do with a nature oriented character? I see some potential for a psionic performance-oriented class, similar to classical Celtic depictions of bards, rigorously trained guardians of the natural order whose songs could inflict curses or topple kingdoms. I may have to think on this a while... It's a shame that Magic of Incarnum isn't OGL, because it fits the mood of a psionics world pretty well (just replace "soulmelds" with "archetypes"), and could help with the lack of healing without feeling like Clerics-renamed. This is all stream of consciousness, so I fear I'm rambling, but I'm not afraid enough to stop. What about a psionic-themed swashbuckler class who can spend pp not on powers, but on "stunts"? Are gem dragons OGL? If not, we'll need more Ego dragons. After all, regular dragons are so closely tied to Arcane that they won't be in this world without some heavy modification. Am I the only one who sees Elan as a sea-faring race? Imagine the benefits of not needing to eat to sea-going traders. The dangers of marine-living could also explain how an otherwise immortal race that can reproduce at all never expands to fill the whole world. I envision them as having floating nations unbound to land... (Yes, if you're one of the players of my endless-world campaign, this *is* starting to sound familiar and this is the reason there are no Tirhai children.) I know the fluff text ties the Maenads to the sea, but I'm not sure I see the connection myself (something about being tempestuous, maybe?). More obviously non-human races are a necessity. Pity about the Thri-kreen not being OGL, but the dromites are loads of fun. I'd also like to see a reptile-themed psionic race, perhaps similar to the classical eastern Naga (not the Monster Manual naga, but the Rokugan ones). Of course, I may be prejudiced in this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=979277). Come to think of it, I made a version of this somewhere in my notes... I'll see if I can find it and throw it at the Dreamscarred forums later today. That's all I have at the moment. More rambling later!
Magocrat 02-05-08, 02:53 PM	I would suggest beefing up the heal and craft (herbalism) skills. Make "Poultice of cure light wounds" a non-magical, possibly slower, substitute for universally available clerics, but cheap and easily gotten resource. If you go this route, there should be a class (not a prestige class) that at least has those skills as class skills and can attack with herbal concoctions, even if it's not, itself a psionic class. (Though... why not? And now that I think about it, Egoists have heal as a class skill...) I just so happen to have a Craft (herbalism) skill left unpublished. If you have a need for it, I'm more than happy to submit it to the good cause. Also, the world doesn't really become a lot more deadlier. With the Heal skill, you can do quite a lot of healing. Basically, with time, hit point and ability score damage can be healed. You just need no spells but more time. And now that I think of it, a sangehirn in this campaign setting would command a lot of influence because his skills are in demand.
The_Mess 02-05-08, 02:57 PM	Yes, but they can't mention Sangehirn in the campaign setting. The Mind's Eye stuff isn't OGL.
The_Mess 02-05-08, 03:19 PM	Curses! I've just realized that the two best psionic monsters are both missing from the SRD. CURSES AGAIN! I guess that makes Aboleths the default "evil masterminds" of the world, along with Dreamscarred's own "native" psi-evils. Presumably opposed by the Coatl (who would take most of the "divine agent" jobs in the setting). You know, a smaller, terrestrial, Aboleth servant would be really helpful. Well, I still like the reptilian-psi theme, and there's room for a non-yuan-ti reptilian psions out there. Mindflayers... well, they're going to be missed.
Bacris 02-05-08, 03:22 PM	Keep in mind, there are Open Content versions of the Mind Flayers :) Lion's Den Publishing put out the Phrenic Scourges and we'll definitely be including them. But yes, the loss of the kreen, the flayers, the yuan-ti, and the gith do suck.
Lokiyn 02-05-08, 03:28 PM	the Neh-Thalguu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) is ogl so you could probably keep the original in place of the elder brain and work up a "lesser" version, just off the top of my head drop is Hd to 19, drop its poison down to a XdX damage, remove its casting ability (granting it again as psionics 1 level per hit dice until it reaches 32 again, change its incorporality to a mis chance (upgrading it to incorporality later) Just that should drop it into the CR 14-15 range where the classes Mindflayer is, drop the brain extraction and replace it with ego whip for a "least" neh-thalguu as well as dropping the miss chance and that should put it in the cr 8-10 range.
Caterpillar 02-05-08, 05:32 PM	I was thinking about Jhaamdath (sp?) and a good idea that comes from that is the ability of a whole city to be connected through a focus of some sort. How law enforcement would work is a good idea, as someone as already stated. When I think about psionics in non d&d settings a lot of the stories involve psychics who reach out and touch alien forces and either learn from them or draw them to their planet. This can easily make for some interesting enemies or allies. I really can not think of much else. Nice thread btw.
Lycanthromancer 02-05-08, 09:30 PM	Well, my psionics revision is OGL (I set it out to be used for free after all), so you can feel free to use anything from that, even if you don't like or use all of it. Talents, for instance. I'll look around at this and come up with a few things (and yes, I realize that my stuff has, in the past, been less than optimal; I'll stick mostly with ideas this time, as you seem to like those, Mr. Smiff). Are deep crystal dragons still coming out? Those'd make a very interesting 'familiar' for any 'wizards' that come along. :)
The_Mess 02-05-08, 10:57 PM	Will you be converting races with magical abilities into psionic equivalents? Psionic drow, kobolds being natural kineticists? Elves would need a new favored class.
MnemonicSV 02-06-08, 02:00 AM	Here's a copy/paste of a item that I was going to add to my own psi-only campaign (which I fear may never get off the ground now... sigh), and is intended as a mundane means of restricting low-level manifesters: Hairshirt Originally used by monks for the practice of self-discipline exercises, the shirt has of late become more popular in civilized lands, albeit for a less benign purpose. A hairshirt (also called a cilice) is a shirt woven of very coarse materials, usually goat or camel hair. When worn against the skin it tends to irritate and itch… made worse by the fact that lice typically infest such a shirt. The version noted here is actually more like a straight-jacket, complete with buckles and straps, typically used in prisons and dungeons to restrict power manifestation by prisoners as well as bind them. Characters who are bound in a hairshirt find this irritation is very uncomfortable and distracting. Characters who attempt to manifest powers or use psi-like abilities must succeed on a DC 15 Concentration check, or ruin the attempt. A character who sleeps in a hairshirt is automatically fatigued the next day. A character bound in a hairshirt can remove it with a successful DC 30 Escape Artist check, or burst free of it with a DC 26 Strength check. A hairshirt has hardness 2 and 5 hit points. EDIT: You may want to add a caveat that characters with damage reduction (or maybe a natural armour bonus) are immune to the distracting effects. It's up to you.
Soel Griffin 02-06-08, 03:16 AM	Instead of psionic x classes, maybe just have psionic variant substitution levels for the base classes.
angellis_ater 02-06-08, 03:41 AM	Someone noted that there might be a shortage of classes, but with two upcoming base classes not yet released, both which can cover very large premises of concepts, I believe people will not feel that they are limited in their choices.
Orchomenos 02-06-08, 08:34 AM	I haven't read everything, just wanted to give my two coppers. Beside the four traditional PC roles (tank & bash, healer, arcane power, skill monkey), beside the good vs evil, there's another antagonism in D&D: nature vs civilisation. Or druids (and rangers) vs anything that does not respect nature. I know psywar have many "wild" powers (claws of the beast, bite of the wolf, etc.), but a psywar could still have a full plate, a broad sword and manifest Bite of the Wolf for an additional attack. So what I suggest is either a sect or cult promoting the "inner beast", or even a psywar class variant: you get weapon and armor restrictions as a druid, you loose some powers that are not 100% "wild" (anything related to a weapon instead of natural attack), but you gain some ranger abilities & skills: HIde, Move Silently, Survival, Handle Animal, Track, Wild Empathy, Animal Companion. Perhaps could you also give 4 skill points by level instead of 2? I don't know if it's balanced, I'm just throwing an idea. Once again, I'm not really versed in the psionic area, perhaps something similar already exist. These are just my two coppers.:twocents:
Bacris 02-06-08, 09:57 AM	So what I suggest is either a sect or cult promoting the "inner beast", or even a psywar class variant: you get weapon and armor restrictions as a druid, you loose some powers that are not 100% "wild" (anything related to a weapon instead of natural attack), but you gain some ranger abilities & skills: HIde, Move Silently, Survival, Handle Animal, Track, Wild Empathy, Animal Companion. Perhaps could you also give 4 skill points by level instead of 2? I don't know if it's balanced, I'm just throwing an idea. I'm going to go on record and say I love this idea.
SkipSandwich 02-06-08, 10:15 AM	so...something like this? (rough draft) Psychic Warrior Variant: Wild Warrior Among the psychic warrior community, there are those who believe that natural ways are the best ways, and seek to emulate nature in all her forms so as to better themselves. Class Skills A wild warrior adds Handle Animal, Survival, Hide and Move Silently to his list of class skills. Class Features The Wild Warrior has all the standard psychic warrior class features, except as noted below. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Wild Warriors are proficient with the following weapons: club, greatclub, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are proficient in light and medium armors as well as shields (but not tower shields). Manifesting Remove the following powers from the Wild Warrior’s class power list: 1st- call weaponry, metaphysical weapon, prevenom weapon; 2nd-dissolving weapon; 3rd-graft weapon, Psionic keen edge, vampiric blade; 4th-truevenom weapon, weapon of energy Add the following powers to the Wild Warrior’s class power list: 1st-control flames, entangling ectoplasm; 2nd-control air; 3rd-ectoplasmic cocoon; 4th-Metamorphosis; 5th-psionic revivify, restore extremity; 6th-psionic restoration The Wild Warrior loses his bonus feats, and gains the following class features as a ranger; Wild Empathy, Track, Woodland Stride, Animal Companion, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Camoflage, Hide in Plain sight. He gains these abilities at the same level a ranger would.
AntiDjinn 02-06-08, 02:15 PM	Even a world without gods or divine magic would probably still have "priests". They just wouldn't be a character class, more likely a profession skill that anyone can take. In RL no one can prove the existence of the divine and priests can't cast actual (overt) spells, but churches are everywhere. In D&D terms, RL clerics are Experts with ranks in Profession (Cleric), they provide guidance for lay people, but don't channel worship to empower the divine who in turn provides spells. Such NPCs might be everywhere, their followers might actually believe that faith is their salvation, but they would be mistaken. Primitive cultures may be a problem. Belief in a spirit world seems to arise pretty early in any given culture, whether or not spirits actually exist. Cultures too primitive to have developed the techniques of the psion or erudite probably have something else. Wilders would likely be the shamans among primitive tribes in a psionics-only world. In the evolution of psionic techniques, it is likely that the more crude abilites of the wilder arose first and were over time refined to produce the psion. Other options would include using the ardent as primitive shaman (add mantles for Ancestors, Spirits, genus loci, and Visions, and you pretty much can cover what shaman could do for their people). Alternately, you could adapt something like the Akashic from Monte Cook; a skill-based class that taps into racial memory (great for a society that reveres their ancestors). Society Minds may also be common among barbarians, but only at or beyond a certain level of society; bronze-age tribes yes, but stone age or lower family clans probably not.
AntiDjinn 02-06-08, 02:32 PM	Yeah, I know, if you are developing a setting for publication then you can't even mention the ardent or erudite, but I bet they OGL the lot of 3.5 once 4.0 lands.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 02-06-08, 04:14 PM	I apologize if this has already been stated, but it seems to me that different societies might have different approaches for grouping those with different talents. For example, one society could have the Nomad Guild (responsible for mass-transportation), the Egoist Guild (infantry), the Telepath Guild (law enforcement), the Seer Guild (espionage), the Shaper Guild (construction), and the Kinetecist Guild (artillery). Each Guild would have both normal and psionic members, and between them would run every facet of life in that society. Another society might group Psions of different talents in small subgroups, making a point of having one of each type working together to combine their unique talents in a wide variety of fields - essentially, troubleshooters for the State. Yet another society might leave people to pursue their desired profession regardless of their natural talents. Some combination of all three possibilities seems likely, each style of Psiocracy giving different weights to different approaches.
jbsaff 02-06-08, 04:46 PM	Awesome psywar as nature warrior idea... Here I spend 2 weeks trying to come up with a psionic replacement for the druid and you come along with an idea that totally nails it. I was pretty much stuck with an Egoist/Anyform Savant with a psicrystal and EK:Astral Construct.
Lycanthromancer 02-06-08, 05:13 PM	First off, I think that completely revoking gods is perhaps not the best way to do things. Having gods with stats – yes, definitely gone. I think I’d prefer to have a god or a small pantheon (such as a duality) of high gods that may or may not exist (leave it vague, and up to each DM as to whether or not the high god/s exist), and that not even the most skilled seers can determine their veracity. Perhaps there are some large religions that have schismed into various factions over the exact nature of the high ones, or even whether or not they actually exist. I’d also like to see some sort of Spirit World (Avatar: The Last Airbender does an absolutely awesome job – go watch Book 1, Chapter 20: Siege of the North (Part 2)) that coexists and transcends the mortal world, filled with the spirits of living and nonliving things alike. Very evocative, and it could be Ksaren’s version of either the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, with the domicile of the spirits being the Deep Ethereal or Deep Shadow. I would also make most creatures at least somewhat psionic in nature (or magical, for ‘natural’ beasties), giving them the Wild Talent or Hidden Talent feats for free. Wild Talent + Precocious Psychic (the feat as shown in my powers revision) could give quite a few people access to low-level psionic abilities that would alter the flavor of the world. A lot. It wouldn’t change much in the way of mechanics, however. Those that don’t have natural psionics (call them psivoids or something) are naturally resistant to psionic energies, and though they are relatively rare (perhaps 5-10% of the population), they can be very useful to have around (make it a template: high PR, access to antipsionic feats, and perhaps a slight level adjustment, if any at all). They, of course, could never take psionic classes, but they’re quite useful to have around as infiltrators, as lab monkeys, and as cleanup crews after massive supernatural disasters where residual energies could do serious psychic harm to those vulnerable to psi-energies. Perhaps a new category of classes and feats (or a bonus adjunct to the non-psionic classes, kind of like how a scaling template works) would work well with this type, so that they can keep up with the power of the manifesting classes. This would, however, require quite a bit of thought, since keeping up with casters in general is difficult for noncasters. Anyway, these are a few thoughts I’ve had, and I’ll see if I can’t dream up some more. Good luck on this. Very exciting stuff.
The_Mess 02-06-08, 09:36 PM	I apologize if this has already been stated, but it seems to me that different societies might have different approaches for grouping those with different talents. For example, one society could have the Nomad Guild (responsible for mass-transportation), the Egoist Guild (infantry), the Telepath Guild (law enforcement), the Seer Guild (espionage), the Shaper Guild (construction), and the Kinetecist Guild (artillery). Each Guild would have both normal and psionic members, and between them would run every facet of life in that society. I like this idea in general, but specific to the campaign in question, it doesn't sound like it fits. Welcome to a world where city-states struggle to survive on their own, having thrown off the bitter rule of the fallen empire of Alyria. (http://www.dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Core/article/sid=12.html) A guild structure like that would require nations larger than city-states to organize effectively, I'd think. Then again, the guilds could be remnants of the old empire, in which case they're probably more powerful than the existing nations...
Bacris 02-07-08, 09:20 AM	Here's a copy/paste of a item that I was going to add to my own psi-only campaign (which I fear may never get off the ground now... sigh), and is intended as a mundane means of restricting low-level manifesters: Hairshirt I missed this post initially. This is a cool concept!
angellis_ater 02-07-08, 09:24 AM	I can say this much, you can expect variant classes and new ideas (some found in previous releases) and some of those ideas have been born from what YOU people have brought to us here! Keep it up and we'll see when we can throw together a preview of some sort.
Lokiyn 02-07-08, 11:50 AM	One thing that always drove me mad, even in the eberron setting was the misapplication of magic or psionics to solve a mundane problem. Looking at it logically the main premise of any engineer or artisan from such a world, one would think that the designers would try to minimize their use of psionics, in such a way as to extract the maximum possible potential from any given applications. As i stated on the eberron boards when eberron first came out in any given psionic society any attempt to psionically heat and light a given infrastructure will logically default to the use of minor creation. The basic pricipal behind such a design is "It doesn't matter how long it lasts, as long as it lasts long enough" Lets take a look at how they dealt with lighting in Secrets of Sarlona. In the Sarlona book they use darklights a 500gp psionic item that creates an 80 foot radius non variable light setting. If you were to say cover a city say a square mile in size you are looking at anywhere from 300-600 of these units to light just the cities thoroughfares. So 150k-300k plus the need for psionic indidivuals to recharge the darklights on a routine basis. Not the most terribly efficient set up. Now lets look at a set up using say, minor creation as a base Each individual lighting unit would be Hooded Lantern or roughly 7 gp apiece. so already we are seeing some savings, to cover the same area as above we need slightly more lanterns Roughly 1.7- 1.8 times as many lanterns, so say 700-1000 lanterns, so 4.9k to 7k worth of lanterns, already you are looking at 3% of the cost of using darklights in end units alone. Now, if the city was "ideally" laid out it would be in a circle with our hypothetical unit in the center the city would be roughly 3000 feet in radius and have a perimeter of about 19,000 feet. So assuming overkill you would establish say 3119 pipes 3000 feet long extending from the center of the city to the edge of the walls to carry our fuels. That is something on the oder of 9,357,000 feet worth of tubing. Please note that this is actually the most Inefficient method of laying out the pipes, in theory you would only need half of that. Anyway, examining the listed materials we note that there are five metals given in Cost per Pound; Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper, Iron. Of these 5 metals only Iron is given in both hardness and hit points in the Core Srd. (or at all as far as i can tell) So taking iron with a hardness of 10 and a HP of 30 per inch, we decide some numbers for these pipes, namely how thick/strong should they be. So we take a look at the total HP to break in a hit as our base line. Looking at our options we see we have glass (2hp), wood (15hp), Bronze (29hp), Stone (24hp), and Iron (40hp). So from a standpoint of costs, lets reduce iron till it has the minimum strength, in other words the ability to take up to 10 points of damage in a hit without losing function. So Iron would then be 10HD/1Hp to 1/30hp = .03~ inches thick, which is about the thickness of 10 pieces of paper Converted into a volume this means that the total volume of the pipes iron (and i mention again that the above was probably the maximum pipe lengths) that boils down to 1928 cubic feet of iron. Iron (averaged out) boils down to about 450 pounds per cubic foot so 867,587 pounds of iron or 86,758 gp maximum for the pipe network. Each lantern's resevoir would presumably contain a valve as well as valves at junctions in the grid, So that the person with the job of maintaining the resevoirs would use a key to send oil down the pipes and a second key to actually let oil into the resevoir of the lantern. Anyway we now have a distribution system and an end lighting unit. The main portion of this system (and the only enchanted portion) would be in a central location, in a tower or above the city in some way to allow gravity to do most of the work in moving the liquids. An item of minor creation, operating continuously (Power Level X Manifester Level X 2000 X special) As an hour per level power minor creation is not with a special mod so, Pl*Ml*2000 Working with the power you see that every minute in operation the item would produce X*7.4 Gallons of oil with the X being the manifester level. (Oil produced in Pints)*(Oil Duration/6) winds up with 21,312 lanterns fueled by such a system (Each lantern burns 1/6th of a pint per hour) Now realistically you would want to be sure that the lanterns are the low point in the system with an automated float or such to keep the resevoir from over filling, if the lanterns are not the low point in the system you lose a lot of oil that pools in the pipes and isn't burned. In practice you would likely set up secondary stations and divide the oil between them then distribute it to the lanterns. So at worse you have a system that costs 80-90% of the cost of using multiple psionic items (bait for theft, and an exp drain) and still lights up the city Realistically you are looking at a roughly 40-50k system or about 30% of the cost with the most valuable component centralized safely, with no component of the system costing more than 7-12 gold outside of the core unit. More practically if you designed a system well you could also heat the city's important areas with a similar system. If you were really civic minded you could work out a formula (Produced oil - Dissipated oil) = Consumed oil * fee to pay for upkeep of the system and set taxes accordingly. And this isn't limited to oils. Any product that is used to generate an end result that is not dependend on the initial reactants is useful. I'll present a short example two real quick One of the biggest problems in mining is getting minerals from their ores and purely, with a major creation system providing the Acids necessary to dissolve the say, copper/tin/uranium/gold/platinum/etc (depending on the solvent) from ores and soils. The resulting liquid mixture, minus the materials that are non soluable is rich with the bound minerals, for example if you mix sulfuric acid with copper ores you will produce a slurry with three main components Copper Sulfates, Iron Sulfates and occasionally something called Jarosite, Once the duration of major creation is over and the original materials dissipate you are left with basically a collection of pure copper and iron remaining with slight impurities.
McPoyo 02-07-08, 12:01 PM	Stuff That brought a tear to my eye. That was just beautiful. Unrelated Side Note: Imagine how low petrol prices would be :) I can clearly see this working in an alternate reality campaign. Wait, prices would be the same, profits would be huge though...
MnemonicSV 02-08-08, 02:59 AM	I missed this post initially. This is a cool concept! Thanks, though I can't take full credit. It is loosely based on the actual historical item (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice), but adapted to a "more practical" use for a psi-only campaign.
angellis_ater 02-10-08, 02:36 PM	Some of the things I can leak right now is that we've taken you guys up on the Wild Warrior to fill the role of the Druid, although with some alterations, as well as making space for a new base class that can cover Cleric, Druid, Bard and a few other roles as well.
Bacris 02-10-08, 03:00 PM	Additionally, Lokiyn's excellent post on the economics of psionic items for mundance uses will be something I'll be thoroughly examining when deciding those sorts of details. :)
AdventChild 02-10-08, 10:58 PM	i have a few stuff i made for an all psionic campaign, bacris check your personal messages i sent you everything i have, also check my sig for other creations (you can modify them if you like.)
MnemonicSV 02-11-08, 01:00 AM	You know what would be really cool? Fixing cognizance crystals! Specifically: 1) Fold Craft Cognizance Crystal into Craft Universal Item. The former feat is never worth taking really. Unless you're planning on using Psychic Reformation to dump it immediately after use. 2) Create rules for actually charging the darn thing. As it stands, there are zero game mechanics for the act of charging a cognizance crystal. What action is it? Does this provoke an AoO? Who can perform such a task (manifesters-only, or any creature with pps)? Must you charge it to capacity in "one shot," or can you fill it to capacity 1 pp at a time? Is it like manifesting a power? And so on... Just some personal gripes I (and perhaps others) would like to see ironed-out.
The_Mess 02-11-08, 08:10 AM	Dreamscarred Press already "fixed" cognizance crystals not by folding them into universal items but by expanding them to include a wider variety of options. See Untapped Potential.
Bacris 02-11-08, 09:06 AM	Correct. Craft Cognizance Crystal can be used to create the following if you use material from Dreamscarred Press: Cognizance Crystals Mindstones Impression Crystals Memory Crystals (including Instructional Crystals) (in Phrenic Creations: Memory Crystals) AdventChild, I'll be giving that all a look over. :)
AdventChild 02-11-08, 09:00 PM	i had stats and rules for psionic airships, basically the ship had a room with a sphere like object made out of crystal with "veins" made of crystal as well that rooted all around the ship, the "pilot" would require to touch the object and by using his thought he could sail. some big crystal where placed outside of the ship in strategic positions, the pilot could see through all the crystals outside which served like eyes, with a proper concentration check the pilot could view things from all eyes at once ill see if i can find it and the rest of my setting... other stuff: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=865608&highlight=ravnica Pillory of the Sleepless Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One living creature Duration: 1 day Saving Throw: Will negates Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 3 Target creature cannot sleep for 24 hours. A creature who rests does not gain the benefits from resting, so a creature who rests 8 hours to regain spells and usage of some spell like abilities. Every 24 hours the creature must make an additional will saving throw or become fatigued, if already fatigued it becomes exhausted. Augment You can manifest this power in one or both of the following ways. For every 4 additional power points you spend, the duration of this power increases by one more day. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
Caterpillar 02-12-08, 04:05 PM	Pillory of the Sleepless Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One living creature Duration: 1 day Saving Throw: Will negates Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 3 Target creature cannot sleep for 24 hours. A creature who rests does not gain the benefits from resting, so a creature who rests 8 hours to regain spells and usage of some spell like abilities. Every 24 hours the creature must make an additional will saving throw or become fatigued, if already fatigued it becomes exhausted. Augment You can manifest this power in one or both of the following ways. For every 4 additional power points you spend, the duration of this power increases by one more day. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1. That is such an awesome power.
Lokiyn 02-12-08, 06:06 PM	On facinating thing i discovered is that the lions share of items that we consider "modern" inventions (or coming out of the industrial revolution) existed long before. If you Read De Arctitecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_architectura) you find that an incredible amount of advanced machinery was available even before the roman empire fell. Furthermore even before them the Chinese had gearing and devices that converted rotational motion (from a water wheel) into sidereal motion (for blast furnaces, sawmills, millhouses, and such) Even possessing drilling rigs (though not as advanced the ability to drill 100 or more feet into the ground for water is impressive considering you are working with bamboo wood and muscle power) Even more amazing i found that while a lot of people attribute iron to the aid of industry bronze is actually a superior material for most applications, but without advanced mining techniques to get Zinc and Tin were comparatively uncommon metals compared to iron. Anyway, when you look at it there are three main items you can look at and exclude from a dnd world to get a more consistant look at what the combination of mechanical artisan-ry and magic artistry would produce. First of remove combusion based engines, on the other hand include steam engines that are not piston based (available in as early periods as roman empire lacked a fuel source (heavy coal mining) to make it more available or efficient than water power) a good example of this is the Dirge for Sabis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_of_Knowledge) book where the artisans outfitted a Aoliphile (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Aeolipile_illustration.JPG) to a sailing vessel to prove the concept of steam power (the city was overrun by barbarians in a few days later however the captain of the ship escaped to a series of isolated islands and founded the "dragon pirates" venting the escaping steam through a bronze figure head of the dragon to disguise the actual nature of the ships propulsion. (For example a Multihull design such as a Catamaran with appropriate paneling to hid the wheel between the two hulls would be faster and more stable than a wind powered monohull) As an example you could place a psionic race originating from an island that is stuck in a calm belt or in an area with contrary winds that prevends normal wind ships from easily reaching it, extremely rough seas would promote the development of multi-hull designs (in fact the multihull was mainly used in the archipelagos where shallow waters led to rougher waves and shallow waters helped limit keels.) I would personally use a Trimaran design with the Aeolipile in the center Vaka and the wheels in the gap between the Ama, with the right gingerbreading the ship could look like a dragon riding the waves "breathing" steam. Secondly Remove explosives, although gunpowder is well known and not terribly hard to make the corning process wasn't invented till much later (1400's or so) the original powder couldn't burn rapidly enough to "explode" but did burn enough for signal rockets. i would suggest that you posit an impurity that prevents the corning process from successfully working, for example the corning process while creating the proper mixture also serves to create small elemental mites that are short lived fiery creatures that scamper about till their food (the powder) is gone, you could explain that sulfur is the husks of the elementals or perhaps the nests or some similar and that the addition of their two primary foods (charcoal and cystal of urine) acts to wake up/hatch the mites. Thirdly make sure to mention that induction doesn't work, this is as easy as explaining that even though electricity is created in this world electricity is the result of an application of (magic/psionics) and that the process of induction rather than creating the electricity is instead generating a low low level field of psionic energies that are absorbed into the greater natural fields. Toss something in thats unique such as a crystal that absorbs such energies and glows for a bit or one that cools down for a unique feature. Anyway, the output of Aeolipiles is calculatable to an extent, you take the fule produced / consumed per round and turn that into heat energies, its not difficult to calculate heat X turns Z amount of water to Steam, the hard part is determining how much force is generated by the steam escaping the aeolipile. For ease of sanity its best to claim some linear amount of force that goes up with the fuel consumed and then toss in a couple of simple gearing ratios for more or less force at greater or lesser speeds.
AdventChild 02-14-08, 10:38 AM	That is such an awesome power. thanks! :cool:
Caterpillar 02-14-08, 06:13 PM	thanks! :cool: np! If I work late my brain simply will not shut off when my body is beyond tired so I lie awake for hours. This was one of the things I was reading after days of no sleep. I actually lol'd at the timing.
angellis_ater 02-16-08, 07:36 PM	First of all, Lokiyn, you scare me at times with the intense knowledge and understanding of some of this stuff. Second of all, thanks to suggestions here and elsewhere, as well as a small leak at our website, we can announce that Third Dawn will include the following prestige classes, in one form or another: "Elven" Hawkspear Crystalcarver Ophiduan Palatial Guard But even so, there will be NO racial prestige classes. Make what you want out of that ;-)
The_Mess 02-17-08, 12:57 AM	Hawkspear doesn't require you to be an elf... but it does turn you into one!
Lokiyn 02-17-08, 02:29 PM	I tend to be a bit of a "Niggle" when it comes to details, to the point where i never actually finish the big picture, anyway wikipedia + Library + Bored Saturday = Lots and lots of sporadic knowledge (for example how to make niter beds to extract Kno3 from Urine) One thing i've been fiddling with is the idea of psionic Ornithopters As described in the Arms and Equipment Guide, they are 15x5 hang gliders designed "flap" magically for propulsion, in out psionic game i'm working on a proposal that the ornithopters work slightly differently. Rather than magic (per se) we instead delve into the monster manual and find that the Arrowhawk (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG20a.jpg) is born from eggs layed upon the elemental winds of the plane, furthermore we find that Arrowhawk eggs have an innate levitation ability, females lay clutches of 2d4 eggs in midair and leave them to float until they hatch which in addition to that states that a juveile Arrowhawk hatches at about 20 lb's. Looking up Eggs, or more specifically the chemical composition of eggs we note that the Eggshell of the average bird is about 95% Calcium carbonate stabilized with a protein matrix. In the proposal i'm postulating that the eggshell contains a trace impurity of a mineral "x" that is naturally boyant and is absorbed into the Arrowhawk just before it hatches. The idea is that the Ornithopter itself is no longer just a wooden frame that flaps but is now a light metal frame that has had ground arrowhawk eggshell added to the mixture to provide a lightening of the frame. Turning to the book "Underdark" we note the existance of a mineral known as "Photogenerative Rock" (Und 105), This rock when exposed to light doubles its dimensions every round exposed to light untill it grows to 16 times its original size (4 rounds). Our next component of this is to Alloy the Photogenerative rock in with a Deep crystal component. Our purpose is to combine the two to create a substance that (at least for this game) Absorbs light and unable to grow in size because of that alloying converts the light into an energy that can be fed into the Shell alloy to enhance the levitation effect into a propulsive effect, of course since the effect is now dependedent on light we turn to the deep crystal component to allow the pilot to "fuel" the ornithopter via psionic energies instead (something like 1pp per hour of flight, it will need in game testing to settle on the value) with the possibility of spending extra power points for extra effects. With a slight modification to the size and design of the Ornithopter ( 2.5 foot clamshell casing for the pilots frame, 2.5 foot section of wing hinge ( V pointing) another 2.5 section connected to a hinge ( ^ pointing) with the final 5 feet of wing we get an ornithopter that while having a space 22.5 feet wide (25x5 ft) Folds into a 5x5x5 cube (more of an "H" shape) when not in use Giving the whole unit a much more "psi-chemical" feel to match our local all psionic game
The_Mess 02-22-08, 10:07 PM	I mentioned my Naga on this thread earlier. If anyone is interested, I posted them (http://www.dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=107.html) to the Dreamscarred forum.
angellis_ater 02-23-08, 02:19 PM	We'll take a look and see if there is something to use there. Anyone should feel free to post ideas and concepts, we promise to take a look at anything you wanna share with us, either here or on the DSP forums.
Jaid 02-23-08, 07:04 PM	of course, anything you post here can be swiped by WotC as i understand it, so keep that in mind...
Lycanthromancer 02-23-08, 07:18 PM	By the way, if the idea of a spirit world holds, check out this link: http://www.avatarchapters.org/20/book-1/chapter-20.html
The_Mess 02-24-08, 12:00 AM	of course, anything you post here can be swiped by WotC as i understand it, so keep that in mind... Well, I didn't post them here and I stripped out anything I'd consider my personal IP. Kinda makes them a bit generic, which is sad.
angellis_ater 02-24-08, 02:44 AM	Yeah that might be true. Might be wiser to post them somewhere that the owners don't take control of what you write if you're unlucky...
JulesCARV 02-24-08, 03:18 AM	One question is what role the undead will have in the world. In D&D with arcane/divine magic, undead are often drafted into being allies of "Team Evil." Good guys generally are very anti-undead, and evil guys often, if not always, regard them as useful. Since necromancy, along with illusions, is an area where psionics simply has no analogy to arcane/divine magic, undead will no longer be at the beck and call of mortal bad guys. Liches simply won't exist. Vampires, wights, and ghosts could still exist, since their undeath cycle is largely independent of necromancy (unless they get rebuked and end up being bossed around by a cleric or the like). Skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghasts, mummies, morghs, shadows, wraiths, specters, and devourers are all sometimes created by spellcasters, but also could conceivably arise on their own. Since undeath is no longer associated with mortal evil, good organizations might be less inclined to be fanatically anti-undead, and more inclined to just regard them as dangerous and predatory (i.e., a ghoul's dangerous, and so is a tiger), and less likely to regard them as a profane, corrupting abomination that is a reification of human depravity or the like. Or, if you really want to take things around the bend, you could say that good guys, while wary of their aggressive tendencies, try to treat sentient undead decently where possible (in the same sense that they try to treat evil humanoids decently where possible -- accepting surrender, etc), while some of the evil living people tend to take a more exterminationist stance of killing any undead on sight. Although that's probably going a little bit too far in the stereotype-inversion department.
InkBlot 02-24-08, 04:18 AM	Classically, ghosts and poltergeists are psychic phenomenon. It makes perfect sense for a psion to be affable when it comes to dealing with incorporeal undead. However, it would be more about communicating with, channeling, and appeasing the lingering psyches of the dead than about blowing them up with positive energy. I could easily see an evil medium who has trapped many ghosts within her, who forces them to do her bidding and drains their psychic energy to fuel her own powers.
angellis_ater 02-24-08, 07:08 AM	Well, DSP was planning on releasing The Seventh Path which was meant to focus on a seventh psionic discipline and devotion - Necrosentience & the Medium, but we never got that far due to the 4E news. Perhaps it might be revived for Third Dawn, who knows. The biggest problem I, as a developer, can see is that if we decide to use "all-psionic" then most undead need a rewrite since they use spell-like abilities. Sure, we can "write around that" saying that these are just inate powers that use the spell mechanics, but it still feels... like cheating? Any suggestions on this dilemma? I do have ONE idea, but that would require us to launch a totally different type of Undead creatures, ones that have little to nothing in common with the regular Undead of the Monster Manual.
Lycanthromancer 02-24-08, 12:28 PM	For one, I've been playing around with a single class that can be used to build almost any undead creature (basically a base-class that counts as racial HD, rather than a regular base class or a PrC); you can play around with that, if you like. For two, the thrallherd can easily be used to "create" armies of undead, since the Thrallherd ability is not mind-affecting. Just a thought.
InkBlot 02-24-08, 04:54 PM	For more material deal with ghosts and psionics, there was this thread a while back called Ghosts And Psionics. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=989234) That thread has a bunch of new powers, and a new ardent mantle, all centered around dealing with ghosts.
JulesCARV 02-24-08, 06:25 PM	NB: Technically, psions with mindwipe can create wights by killing a target through negative level bestowal. That's probably just silliness, though.
AdventChild 02-24-08, 11:36 PM	always wanted to mess with two concepts: a person walking around with a ghost following them, perhaps a distant relative, friend or just a random ghost, perhaps the ghost helps the character or vise versa might work on a base class or a prestige class like that. the other concept is a character having wild surges of pshycic energy allowing him to assume a persona, this persona granting the character some benefit. base class or prestige class around that, what do you guys think?
Lycanthromancer 02-24-08, 11:41 PM	You mean like this one? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14805068&postcount=103) I came up with a character concept awhile back using Incarnum and psionics to build a NG character who uses necrocarnum. He doesn't do it on purpose, and can't control whether or not he uses it; he can, however, control the necrocarnum zombies he creates once they're 'alive.' His mother was a necromancer who conceived him in order to build a necromantic monster, but Daddy dearest rescued him before the damage was complete. He raised the boy to be a good person, and good instilled values in him, but Mommy found them and killed the father (who now hangs around as a disembodied personality and does his best to protect his son by inhabiting the bodies of the dead, as he can't be raised, and he can't pass on, and he can't protect his boy in any other way). The character has the [evil] descriptor, but he's a good person. ...What is the consensus on this concept? I'd like to know some opinions. [Edit] I'm going thrallherd later on in order to build an undead army. The undead spontaneously arise and come to him, and He. Can't. Stop. It. ...Luckily, the thrallherd ability isn't [Mind-Affecting], and CAN affect undead. This's gonna be...FUN. Muahahahahaha... [edit] Egoist/incarnate/soul manifester, with necrocarnate melds (primarily the necrocarnum circlet), and powers to give him natural weapons and general creepiness. Then, into thrallherd, for undead goodness (or utter lack thereof). If he dies, well, bad things happen, as he becomes Mommy's Little Monster after all (or at least, that's what he fears).
angellis_ater 02-25-08, 06:54 PM	Yes I agree that Thrallherds do occupy the same "scary mindless devotion to scary evil overlord" niche as necromancers do for magic, which for me is even MORE interesting. Why? Because killing undead is a morally safe area, killing mindslaves is not. Those that are enslaved would be released from their slavery should the Thrallherd die, which makes it alot more interesting and morally "dangerous". Regarding Incarnum, I so WISH we could use a variant of that... hmmm, where are those Psicarnate notes I had lying around?
Lycanthromancer 02-25-08, 07:43 PM	It's possible to have something mechanically similar (though not identical). That could be fun. Say, did Bacris get you the beginnings of my undead class yet, Andreas? I could use a bit of reviewing, and the few people I've shown it to have been interested (and there's some interest here on the boards, as well). [Haven't finished it yet. Feel free to make suggestions. :D]
Melayl 02-25-08, 07:55 PM	I haven't read all the posts yet, but I have an idea to help with the healing aspect. The Heal skill could actually be used to Heal, in a limited manner. Converting a certain amount of lethal damage to non-lethal, perhaps. Powers could be created to do the same thing, on the scale of the Cure spells.
angellis_ater 02-26-08, 02:37 AM	Lycanthromancer: I've given it a cursory overlook right now, but don't feel that I can comment on it yet. The problem with a class as "flexible" in design like that is that what we are thinking about isn't flexible at all and would probably come across better as fixed monsters. Melayl: This has been suggested earlier as well, and with the help of the forumites it looks like we'll add some interesting material on the Heal skill too. Some psionic powers that are based on the concept of improving natural healing will probably make it into the Campaign Setting too.
Sysane 02-26-08, 09:49 AM	Regarding healing and character death in context to a all psionic game. You could make it that the game is less lethal. Meaning that going beyond -10 hp doesn't automatically equate to instant PC death. In a game I'm currently in the DM uses a house rule that when a PC is knocked past -10 they are taken out of the remainder of the combat. After the end of the encounter, the player rolls to see what adverse effect being brought past -10 has on his character. Results ranged from taking permanent damage to an ability score, loss of a limb, or death. The roll is adjusted by the amount the character was knocked past -10. The higher the roll, the more likely the character will die. My two cents anyhow.
InkBlot 02-26-08, 01:07 PM	You don't need to make the game less lethal, because not having Clerics doesn't make it much more lethal. Just make potions of Cure Light Wounds alchemical items, and make Healing Belts craftable by Egoists or Ardents. I've played and run plenty of games that didn't feature a divine caster in the party. Everybody simply made sure to buy some healing items, and pick up feats or class features that let them heal a little bit, or gave them extra hit points. There are plenty of ways for people to heal themselves, especially in books that have come out in the last year-and-a-half (perhaps since "heal they self" is an important part of 4e). Healing isn't impossible with psionics. It's just a less effective than divine magic at low levels. After about level 5 or 7, a psionic character can be very good at healing. At level 1, the best you have is the Ardent's 2HP/PP touch of health. At level 11, the best you have is a Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) with a psicrystal, DR/--, and fast healing, who can actually directly manifest powers like body adjustment on other people but has more effective healing tricks.
jbsaff 02-26-08, 02:16 PM	At level 11, the best you have is a Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) with a psicrystal, DR/--, and fast healing, who can actually directly manifest powers like body adjustment on other people but has more effective healing tricks. Making a Society Mind/Sangehirn with the Lend Health feat from UTP is pretty sweet. Hit point battery, anyone?
Lokiyn 02-26-08, 06:08 PM	One thing i thought might be interesting in a setting is to combine a few existing element in dnd and produce a new psionic element that takes part of all the individual pieces and combines it into a greater whole. The pieces i've been looking at are Osssra Poisons (Serpent Kingdoms), the Crystal enchantments (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20030426a) and Allomancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn). The yet unfinished idea is to develop a class of Alchemical items that are psionic only and only effect psionic creatures in the manner of Osssra Poisons and reptilian creatures. These items would be consumable one shot items that produce an extraordinary effect in the user, if the user is psionic, but a negative effect if the user is not psionic. Depending on the item it would either generate an expanding "field" (retaining the smoke-esque mechanics of Osssra) or work individually with multiple "fields" interacting negatively. The effects of these substances would be gem based rather than venom based and only activateable by psionic creatures or characters with the traits necessary to use it. (probably a feat or feat chain of some sort similar to grell alchemy[Lords of Madness]) The example substance i've been fiddling with looks like this Bijoumantic Compounds Bijoumantic Compounds are a carefully prepared concoction made from combining certain gems and specially prepared minerals together and blending them with psionic energies to produce a substance that is both like and unlike a solidified psionic power. These compounds are produced in Ounce sized doses and are stored in small glass vials and carefully labled. To activate a Bijoumantic Compound one must hold the vial in thier hand and expend a thier focus to psionicall "ignite" the compound which begins to consume itself generating an field where the rules of existance gain a few odd subclauses as a result of the carefully prepared substances. When thus ignited the user has two options. The user can either allow the compounds to remain in the vial, in which case the compounds consume themselves after 5 rounds, or in some cases directly apply the compounds to the skin or ingest them (as part of the standard action to activate the item) for additional benefits (see individual compounds for more information) Most of the time however the compounds are carefully inserted into specially prepared geodes, these geodes allow for a more controlled consumption allowing the effects to last up to 4 hours but cannot be moved once ignited or the effect ends 2 rounds later. Geodes cost an average of 50 gold pieces and once used must be cleaned (at minimum a full round action) before used again, lest the residue create a dissonance with the new compound. Regardless of the activation method the fields generated expand slowly (at a rate of one foot per round) up to a maximum of 60 feet. If the field is less than 5 feet in radius one must share a square with the source to benefit from it. If two or more fields interact with each other all within either field suffer from a dissonance effect as described later on. Because of the delicate nature of the compound mixing two or more compound together ruins them both. Non Psionic individuals (those without the psionic subtype) suffer while in the field (although no individual is effect more than once by the same field, unless they leave and re-enter its area of effect). An example compound would be something like Aversate This compound is usually burned in geodes in places where psychic creature gather to study the field of effect imposes an unatural sharpness on the area within its effect, experienced psionicists can identify an affected are by the slight color shifting toward the blue end of the spectrum. While affected by the field and for 2d6 rounds afterwords psionic creature find that the unnatual clarity of the field allows them to remember things easier granting them a +5 alchemical bonus to autohypnosis checks to memorize items. Non psionic creatures find the experience overwhelming and must make a Dc 12 fortitude save or be dazed for 1d4 rounds while their senses adjust. .... Or something like that, i haven't had time to really work on it.
Melayl 02-27-08, 02:54 PM	Might my psionic race, the Van (see my sig), fit with this world? If so, you're welcome to use it. [/shameless plug]
AntiDjinn 02-27-08, 03:46 PM	There is no need to add a lot of patches to make up for the fact that healing is harder to come by and major character reboot effects such as Heal and True Resurrection are off the table. If the purpose of a new setting is to try something different, then you don't want to start by adding new versions of the same old stuff. So if there are no deities who will send you back after you have been blasted to atoms, then so be it; death is actually something to fear instead of just a break in the action. It will also mean setting up an Astral Seed beforehand as insurance against such things is going to be the plan instead of counting on others to True Res you.
JulesCARV 02-27-08, 04:59 PM	Argh! I forgot the most intriguing psionic analogy to necromancy -- the creation of phthisics! They're said to come from some screwed-up application of psychic chirurgery, although the rules don't go much further than that, although there is the subverted psion of Mind's Eye. Anyway, one thing I'm not getting a sense of is of what motivates people in this setting, typically. Is it about psychic warrior knights riding off to slay gem dragons to rescue psionic princesses? Is it about psionic elves, psionic dwarves, psionic halflings, and psionic humans teaming up on a quest to destroy a psionic artifact of ultimate evil? Is it about psionic nobles trying to assassinate each other and scheme for power as order breaks down and a looming psionic threat threatens to strike as society reels in disarray? Generally, I suppose I'm asking what kind of stories this setting is supposed to be oriented toward telling.
Bacris 02-27-08, 05:07 PM	JulesCARV - that's a very valid question, and is actually something both Angellis_ater and I have been spending a lot of time figuring out. Without going into too much detail, simply because we haven't figured it all out yet, political intrigue will definitely be one aspect of the campaign, with different organizations vying for control without resorting to brute force. And expansionist regimes also play a role, although that one should be more interesting then it sounds. And then there's also the danger of the more sinister monstrous races to fight against. I say more sinister because not all monstrous races are necessarily bad. We're trying to avoid stereotypical plot devices as much as possible, without going too far out into left field at the same time. It's a tough balance, but we are taking into account "why do people adventure?" into our campaign design. :)
Lokiyn 02-27-08, 10:42 PM	A suggestion for this although not anything new (i can think of at least three different sets of stories that contain this) is the concept of a censored set of knowledge. It could be anything from from a country to a people or even a whole body of knowledge. Suppose that in this campaign setting people find occasional artifacts in lost areas, not artifacts as in the magic items but samples of scripts or items or skeletons (depending on the item) You might have an area whose measurements don't add up. Basically you have this ongoing mystery that when dated using nonpsionic methods places the items or such within a relatively recent period (say 400-800 years) to put it within range of the longer lived races (such as dragons, fey, elan) but no one remembers it. It's as if someone use modify memory on a global scale to wipe out or hide "something". So as a sort of general background mystery you can have some sort of lost knowledge that crops up now and again, never anything direct, but you could say have a seer using psychometry to research a site and notice that at some point the images "skip" a way to represent this would be to have an old ancient tree regress normally but then suddenly return to a sappling as if a period of years or time in that area was being skipped or blocked. An example of lost areas (this is used more often in sci-fi stories) is where you have an area between two cities whose travel time is screwed up. so you have a woods or mountain range that if you travel around it (say the round about path is 700 miles or so) for those going around the time is normal (say 25-26 days on foot) Now logically a straight line path through the area would be much shorter (just as an example with a circle a straight line would only be about 445 miles for the diameter, so someone traveling in a straight line through the forest or mountain would take 16-17 days, instead people found that it could take up to 40-50 days and no one can account for the time, other times it might take as few as 5 days. Obviously a lot of a psionic game would revolve around the question "even if we know someone is guilty, are they the ones who did it?" with domination and mind control effects as well as people like thrallherds and subverted psions, puppeteers and intellect devourers just finding the guilty party isn't the end of the story there is also finding out if they acted of their own accord. Lets see more twists. Elans could spontaneously appear in places, an elan might wake up (at first level) in an alley with no memories whatsoever aside from strange flashes. a simple flavor change such as that could add mystery and intrigue to the game with some elans questing for a clue to thier source with others not caring at all (every elan's an orphan). Other than that nothing about psionics changes the fundemental fantasy formula's of monster versus civilization, crazed magic user and army of minions, or secret cabals/ power behind the throne. Just the monsters are psionic (or not) the magic user is a psion that controles people in thier sleep (everyone in the village wakes up more and more tired as thier sleeping selves somnambulistically serve psychics) rather than wizards with charm person or dominate you have the telepath thrallherds, dominationists. A Democracy could be a secret dictatorship with the elected official in charge actually a body leech who has been stealing bodys for the last 300 years (then you have the "its evil to steal bodies, but he's kept a stable and happy kingdom for centuries problem) You can toss in the Coldfire sub plot where a creature eats the knowledge and memories of its victim for sustenance and the only way to regain them is to kill the eater. A village might sleep and their dreams form a living nightmare that kills outsiders, damaging the caller in the darkness might also kill the people whose dreams are slain (so in a village of 100 people if you kill that nights caller 11 people die in their sleep one per hit dice) there are a multitude of plots that work regardless of whether you use psionics, magic, incarnum, binding, etc. I have literally hundreds of books in my personal library with countless stories and only a very few couldn't be adapted to any system you care to use.
Bacris 02-27-08, 10:58 PM	Holy crap, Lokiyn. Your ideas are gold.
Lokiyn 02-27-08, 11:05 PM	If I'm going to steal ideas from all my favorite stories i might as well crib the good ones ;)
angellis_ater 02-28-08, 08:29 AM	Mind if we swipe a few, TD them a little and include something based on that in the Campaign Setting book for prospective DMs to use?
The_Mess 02-28-08, 11:09 AM	A suggestion for this although not anything new (i can think of at least three different sets of stories that contain this) is the concept of a censored set of knowledge. When I was very young, I read a Star Trek novel that featured an encounter with a culture that had chosen to forget an attrocity of its past. Since they had no written language, all that was necessary was for every member of the affected generations to simply never speak of the occurence and the event would be erased from history. It disturbed me a bit, the idea that history could be so altered. In a world with physical evidence and an ongoing effect to hinder psychometry, etc. effects, there would need to be some people who knew of the hidden knowledge and were continuing to act to protect the suppression. Elans could spontaneously appear in places, an elan might wake up (at first level) in an alley with no memories whatsoever aside from strange flashes. a simple flavor change such as that could add mystery and intrigue to the game with some elans questing for a clue to thier source with others not caring at all (every elan's an orphan). Given Elans are immortal, this can't be happening too often or would have to have started recently or Elans would rapidly overwhelm all other races. Really cool idea, though.
Lokiyn 02-29-08, 05:05 AM	Mind if we swipe a few, TD them a little and include something based on that in the Campaign Setting book for prospective DMs to use? No problem, like i said thier mostly half scribbled plots from old stories and fiction. In a world with physical evidence and an ongoing effect to hinder psychometry, etc. effects, there would need to be some people who knew of the hidden knowledge and were continuing to act to protect the suppression. Not really, Psychometry and such is stated as reading past impressions, if something powerful and brutal enough to systematically eradicate all living knowledge of the "blank" occurred yet with enough fitness to leave the affected alive and unharmed then it would certainly be child's play for the same effect to erase the passive impressions from objects and places. Its not that psychometry can't read the past its that there is nothing there to read. Like a book whose pages say 55-60 are blank with no other change to the book there's simply nothing that needs active suppression anymore. Given Elans are immortal, this can't be happening too often or would have to have started recently or Elans would rapidly overwhelm all other races. Really cool idea, though. Not really, elans are immortal but certainly not eternal. The fact that elans have no past would drive the majority of them into adventuring and with the natural lethality of the profession working against elans (who can't reproduce on thier own) from ever becoming overwhelming. Even a 1/month "spawn" rate probably wouldn't keep up with adventure deaths and other natural causes. only a few would probably live to take advantage of the immortality. Or as i mentioned above with a "lost" zone. You could have from a meta game perspective a cheerful vibrant civilization inside the area. However when someone enters the area the zone registers this and from then one the characters memories are only temporary, stored within a sort of psionic mythal when they leave the zone all memories of what happened inside the area are lost, producing the strange skipping of time and place i mentioned above. Elans could be constructed creatures designed to explore the world outside these zones. each zone could be the home of a race of psionic fey who share a single gestalt memory (thus the field covering the zone) fixed to a stationary item (prehaps a geodic crystal that server as a sort of memonic nexus of thought.) the fey can't leave the area (travel too far) because thier memories (and thus selves) are linked to the central nexus. So they craft duplicates of the humanoid creatures they interact with on occasion, creating the elan (who artificial are aberrations) and then send them via random teleportations to explore and hopefully return to be processed. You can tie this in and have the memory eaters from cold fire be fey with a slightly more resiliant link who can travel slightly further away from the domes who lure travelers into the area or if they can't consume thier memories and flee into the area. Travelers through these area's might awaken on the other side with gifts if they had known something interesting or striped naked and beaten if they had lacked any new information. As you can see i'm very much drawing from the old myths and legends of the black forests, mazed mountains, and lost valleys, then populating them with creatures that would explain the reasons for the mental confusions, and then enforcing that with trait that forces them to remain in such a place. Imagine an entire race that can't leave thier homes, are trapped and can learn nothing of the outside world except from travelers, even worse, no one can remember who they are! You can run the gamut of alignments from evil to good lawful to chaotic driven solely by a need to know and a curiosity that is never sated.
angellis_ater 03-02-08, 06:02 AM	Lokiyn, I hope your email attached to your account is working, because I sent you an email regarding Third Dawn. Please read and respond.
AdventChild 04-01-08, 12:35 PM	how is this coming out?
Bacris 04-01-08, 01:35 PM	So far, we have about 100 pages of material :) A preview is posted here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Knowledge_Base/op=show/kid=8.html).
AdventChild 04-01-08, 09:53 PM	So far, we have about 100 pages of material :) A preview is posted here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Knowledge_Base/op=show/kid=8.html). cool! if you need a map just let me know here is an example of my work if its not what you are looking for in that community you will be able to find alot of good cartographers. http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=16285 http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=676
angellis_ater 04-02-08, 11:28 AM	I must say that they were both very nice maps. We ARE looking at cartography. Feel free to contact me at stormhierta @ gmail (dot) com so that we can discuss it.