Alternate pricing for Dorjes et al. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate pricing for Dorjes et al. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nom
06-07-07, 08:02 PM The pricing rules for dorjes and the like are difficult to understand and don't mirror wands overly well. As an alternative:

Cost: ML * (pp +1)/2 * 750 gp (or as appropriate to item)

This works out the same as for wands, although the issue of scaling caster level vs augment is still there. Potion and wand power limits can be simply translated into pp (5 and 7, respectively).
munin
06-08-07, 10:19 AM I'm not sure what you mean by pp (I mean, I assume you mean power points, but I don't know why you're distinguishing those from manifester level).

Here are the prices for all possible dorjes:

Level Min. ML + 0 Min. ML + 1 Min. ML + 2 Min. ML + 3 Min. ML + 4 Min. ML + 5
1 750 gp 1,500 gp 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 11,250 gp 13,500 gp
2 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 21,000 gp 24,000 gp
3 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 33,750 gp 37,500 gp
4 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 33,750 gp 37,500 gp 49,500 gp 54,000 gp
5 33,750 gp 37,500 gp 49,500 gp 54,000 gp 68,250 gp 73,500 gp
6 49,500 gp 54,000 gp 68,250 gp 73,500 gp 90,000 gp 96,000 gp
7 68,250 gp 73,500 gp 90,000 gp 96,000 gp 114,750 gp 121,500 gp
8 90,000 gp 96,000 gp 114,750 gp 121,500 gp 142,500 gp 150,000 gp
9 114,750 gp 121,500 gp 142,500 gp 150,000 gp 173,250 gp 181,500 gp

...where Min. ML is (2*level - 1).
runestar
06-08-07, 10:31 AM When you augment a power, its dc may increase as well. The higher costs of a dorje is meant to reflect this.:)

It is functionally different from a wand in this aspect.
crizhII
06-08-07, 10:38 AM When you augment a power, its dc may increase as well. The higher costs of a dorje is meant to reflect this.:)

It is functionally different from a wand in this aspect.

When you increase the CL of a spell its damage may increase as well.

It is functionally different from a dorje in this aspect.

Swings and roundabouts. I prefer to just use the wand and staff formulas. Both Dorjes and Psicrowns have multiple inconsistances in their pricing rules. There is no fully errata'd pricing for either that can be used to price all the examples in the EPH.
runestar
06-08-07, 10:43 AM When you increase the CL of a spell its damage may increase as well.
Yes, but you also pay more for the cost of crafting the wand.

The trend for dorjes seems to be that they factored in a "pseudo-heighten" effect to reflect the possibly higher dc of the augmented power. For example, a 1st lv power augmented to manifestor lv17 may have its dc scale to roughly that of a 9th lv power, similar to heightening a spell to 9th lv.

So manifestor lv is 17, effective spell lv would be 9, and the rest ....

At least, that was my understanding of it. I agree that it seems to unfairly shortchange the player depending on what powers he chooses to store though.:(
Nom
06-09-07, 01:15 AM I'm not sure what you mean by pp (I mean, I assume you mean power points, but I don't know why you're distinguishing those from manifester level).Because pp and ML are different?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but the question illustrates the exact problem. A spell has two variables: spell level and caster level. They are related, in that a spell of a given level implies a minimum caster level, yet both affect the spell's power differently, and the SL * CL pricing formula reflects this.

In contrast, a power has three variables: power level, manifester level, and power point expenditure (or augmentation, if you prefer). The power level sets a minimum pp expenditure, and the manifester level a maximum. The existing dorje / tattoo / psicrown / power crystal rules mash these together in a poorly explained and inconsistent formula. They lock the ML to the pp expenditure (even for powers where you can benefit from high ML without augmentation), then cap this value, and then synthesis a new power level based on the value. Letting pp substitute for power level (which is basically what it does anyway) and then letting ML float grants the same flexibility as for creating wands / scrolls / ... and eliminates the convoluted rules.

Are there any situations where this idea is broken? Note that I don't just mean situations where you can make far more effective items than previously; many existing dorjes seem severely overpriced compared to comparable spells.
munin
06-09-07, 11:01 AM In contrast, a power has three variables: power level, manifester level, and power point expenditure (or augmentation, if you prefer).

A power has those three variables, but a dorje does not since they are always augmentable to their full manifester level, so pp always equals ML. That's why I was confused about your initial post. But now that you've elaborated, I'm guessing that you're proposing a new kind of dorje, using ML and pp instead of ML and power level, where the manifestations from a dorje can be augmented up to its pp (okay, I really hate that abbreviation), not its ML. I think it's better to just stick with power levels.

Also, don't feel that dorje pricing has to "mirror" wand pricing -- they're not wands.

I agree that the wording for dorje creation (and some of the others) is pretty atrocious, but the intent is pretty clear: 750 * ML * PL; +1 PL per +2 ML; ML <= Min. ML + 5.
Nom
06-09-07, 07:47 PM I'm guessing that you're proposing a new kind of dorjeNo. I'm suggesting that the existing dorje/tattoo/power crystal/... rules fail to take into account the (rather important) distinction between ML and pp, and are confusing to boot.

Admittedly, not all powers are affected by this, but a few are. And it raises the obvious question: if I didn't need to spend PP on this as a power, why do I need to when I put it in a dorje? The existing rules also prevent you from simply upping the duration and PR for a dorje, since you must augment the power if you want to up the ML.
Also, don't feel that dorje pricing has to "mirror" wand pricing -- they're not wands.True. And powers aren't spells. But that hasn't prevented the designers creating a matching set of analogous item creation categories.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nom 06-07-07, 08:02 PM	The pricing rules for dorjes and the like are difficult to understand and don't mirror wands overly well. As an alternative: Cost: ML * (pp +1)/2 * 750 gp (or as appropriate to item) This works out the same as for wands, although the issue of scaling caster level vs augment is still there. Potion and wand power limits can be simply translated into pp (5 and 7, respectively).
munin 06-08-07, 10:19 AM	I'm not sure what you mean by pp (I mean, I assume you mean power points, but I don't know why you're distinguishing those from manifester level). Here are the prices for all possible dorjes: Level Min. ML + 0 Min. ML + 1 Min. ML + 2 Min. ML + 3 Min. ML + 4 Min. ML + 5 1 750 gp 1,500 gp 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 2 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 3 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 33,750 gp 37,500 gp 4 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 33,750 gp 37,500 gp 49,500 gp 54,000 gp 5 33,750 gp 37,500 gp 49,500 gp 54,000 gp 68,250 gp 73,500 gp 6 49,500 gp 54,000 gp 68,250 gp 73,500 gp 90,000 gp 96,000 gp 7 68,250 gp 73,500 gp 90,000 gp 96,000 gp 114,750 gp 121,500 gp 8 90,000 gp 96,000 gp 114,750 gp 121,500 gp 142,500 gp 150,000 gp 9 114,750 gp 121,500 gp 142,500 gp 150,000 gp 173,250 gp 181,500 gp ...where Min. ML is (2*level - 1).
runestar 06-08-07, 10:31 AM	When you augment a power, its dc may increase as well. The higher costs of a dorje is meant to reflect this.:) It is functionally different from a wand in this aspect.
crizhII 06-08-07, 10:38 AM	When you augment a power, its dc may increase as well. The higher costs of a dorje is meant to reflect this.:) It is functionally different from a wand in this aspect. When you increase the CL of a spell its damage may increase as well. It is functionally different from a dorje in this aspect. Swings and roundabouts. I prefer to just use the wand and staff formulas. Both Dorjes and Psicrowns have multiple inconsistances in their pricing rules. There is no fully errata'd pricing for either that can be used to price all the examples in the EPH.
runestar 06-08-07, 10:43 AM	When you increase the CL of a spell its damage may increase as well. Yes, but you also pay more for the cost of crafting the wand. The trend for dorjes seems to be that they factored in a "pseudo-heighten" effect to reflect the possibly higher dc of the augmented power. For example, a 1st lv power augmented to manifestor lv17 may have its dc scale to roughly that of a 9th lv power, similar to heightening a spell to 9th lv. So manifestor lv is 17, effective spell lv would be 9, and the rest .... At least, that was my understanding of it. I agree that it seems to unfairly shortchange the player depending on what powers he chooses to store though.:(
Nom 06-09-07, 01:15 AM	I'm not sure what you mean by pp (I mean, I assume you mean power points, but I don't know why you're distinguishing those from manifester level).Because pp and ML are different? Sorry about the sarcasm, but the question illustrates the exact problem. A spell has two variables: spell level and caster level. They are related, in that a spell of a given level implies a minimum caster level, yet both affect the spell's power differently, and the SL * CL pricing formula reflects this. In contrast, a power has three variables: power level, manifester level, and power point expenditure (or augmentation, if you prefer). The power level sets a minimum pp expenditure, and the manifester level a maximum. The existing dorje / tattoo / psicrown / power crystal rules mash these together in a poorly explained and inconsistent formula. They lock the ML to the pp expenditure (even for powers where you can benefit from high ML without augmentation), then cap this value, and then synthesis a new power level based on the value. Letting pp substitute for power level (which is basically what it does anyway) and then letting ML float grants the same flexibility as for creating wands / scrolls / ... and eliminates the convoluted rules. Are there any situations where this idea is broken? Note that I don't just mean situations where you can make far more effective items than previously; many existing dorjes seem severely overpriced compared to comparable spells.
munin 06-09-07, 11:01 AM	In contrast, a power has three variables: power level, manifester level, and power point expenditure (or augmentation, if you prefer). A power has those three variables, but a dorje does not since they are always augmentable to their full manifester level, so pp always equals ML. That's why I was confused about your initial post. But now that you've elaborated, I'm guessing that you're proposing a new kind of dorje, using ML and pp instead of ML and power level, where the manifestations from a dorje can be augmented up to its pp (okay, I really hate that abbreviation), not its ML. I think it's better to just stick with power levels. Also, don't feel that dorje pricing has to "mirror" wand pricing -- they're not wands. I agree that the wording for dorje creation (and some of the others) is pretty atrocious, but the intent is pretty clear: 750 * ML * PL; +1 PL per +2 ML; ML <= Min. ML + 5.
Nom 06-09-07, 07:47 PM	I'm guessing that you're proposing a new kind of dorjeNo. I'm suggesting that the existing dorje/tattoo/power crystal/... rules fail to take into account the (rather important) distinction between ML and pp, and are confusing to boot. Admittedly, not all powers are affected by this, but a few are. And it raises the obvious question: if I didn't need to spend PP on this as a power, why do I need to when I put it in a dorje? The existing rules also prevent you from simply upping the duration and PR for a dorje, since you must augment the power if you want to up the ML. Also, don't feel that dorje pricing has to "mirror" wand pricing -- they're not wands.True. And powers aren't spells. But that hasn't prevented the designers creating a matching set of analogous item creation categories.