Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dual_BSword 06-14-07, 11:19 AM	the reason the sticky thread above gives for psionics being more powerful than wizards in spells isnt enough to prove to me that psionics aren't overpowered... their reason for the wizards being equal is that the psion would run out of pp about the third battle... so... i am a 3rd level psion with 18 int (17 pp without feats or race) this means i can cast mind thrust (1d10 per pp used, in this case 3) 5 times a day. the 3rd level sorcerer with 18 cha in our party can cast magic missle (2d4+2) 6 times a day so yea... i think i may have done something wrong, but i look back and i havent... how isnt my psion greater than my friends sorcerer?
crizhII 06-14-07, 11:31 AM	Saving throws. CR 3 creatures will probably save about a third of the time. If you succeed 3 times out of 5 you will do 40hp damage on average. Your Sorceror buddy will have done 42hp dmg with his MM's. Magic Missile has a range of 130' at this level, Mind Thrust only 30'. It's looking pretty good for the Sorceror....
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 11:41 AM	Magic Missile can hit two targets, always hits, has no save, is longer-range, and isn't mind-affecting. On a subtle point, it's also force damage, meaning it bypasses the incorporeal miss chance and can hit targets on the ethereal plane, if you can sense them. Mind Thrust has a save for NEGATES (which means that your 1d10 is often a 0). It is single-target, and mind-affecting (meaning several low-level opponents, most notably undead, are immune to it), and close range. It also has none of the goodies Magic Missile gets for being force, since it isn't force. Furthermore, this database (http://megariqueza.com/DnD/CritterFilter.php) reveals that the average Will saving throw for CR3 critters (from SEVERAL sources, not just the SRD) is 3.35 -- meaning they will fail the save for your DC 15 Mind Thrust 58.25% of the time. This means you multiply your average damage (5.5) by this value, to get 3.2 average damage. This also required a whopping 18 Intelligence to pull off -- using the standard 15 Int for the elite array, the damage value drops to a measily 2.6 damage per power point. Compare this to Magic Missile's average damage (3.5 damage PER MISSILE and he shoots two -- that's 7 damage, which I feel I need to spell out since you've demonstrated you're bad at math) and you'll instantly see which actually does more damage, mathematically speaking. You want a fair comparison? You should look at the other short-range mind-affecting Will-negates ablities open to the sorcerer -- such as COLOR SPRAY (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm) -- and compare that to mind thrust. In those cases, things such as save DC and immunity are equal, so you can look strictly at the effect. "One target fails his save and takes 1d10 damage.... or several targets fail their save and is either: (unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round), (blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round), or (stunned for 1 round), noting full well that unconscious = DEAD since I can coup de grace them. That is, Mind Thrust to MAYBE deal a small amount of damage to their 27 average HP, or Color Spray to bypass HP and remove a bunch of enemies from the battle." I wonder which is strictly superior. (Hint: it isn't Mind Thrust.)
Rageheart 06-14-07, 11:56 AM	Don't forget your Sorcerer can also whip out 6 rays of frost for 1d3 each ... which outshines the 1 additional Mindthrust @ 2d10 the Psion could use.
Dual_BSword 06-14-07, 12:08 PM	tempest... according to ur math an average of 3.5 dmg x 17 is 54.4 (17d10 with 2/3 success rate) the magic missle spell, 7 x 6 is 42 mind thrust does more damage... and my save is 16... i get one for adding 2d10 to mind thrust
Fireclave 06-14-07, 12:11 PM	1) Mind Thrust requires a save. Those that make their save take NO damage. Magic Missile not only doesn't require a save, but it auto hits. Also, using Mind Thrust is a huge gamble. A creature succeeding on their saves means that you wasted your entire turn doing absolutely nothing but wasting resources. And during combat, actions and resources are your most valuable commodities. 2) Mind Thrust auto-fails on creatures immune to mind-affecting effect. Magic missile missile does not. 3) Damage-wise, magic missile is rather low on the power scale at 3rd level. In most cases, the sorcerer would be better served by Burning Hands if he wants to do damage. It has more potential damage because Burning Hands hits everything in a 15ft cone. And, burning hands will peak in damage at 5th level, while magic missile won't peak in damage until 10th. Or, if you use options outside of core, the lesser orb spells do nearly as much damage (d8's compared to d10's) but merely require you to make a ranged touch attack. That means the Lesser Orb spells are much easier to score a hit with and will still work against undead and such. 4) The Sorcerer could have been using Save-Or-Sucks instead, like Sleep or Glitterdust, which affect multiple opponents and can effectively end the entire encounter in one shot. 5) The Sorcerer still has his 0-level spell slots, which are still valuable weapons in the hands of a smart sorcerer. When it works, Mind Thrust is one of the better low-level powers as far as damage goes, but it's not that good. And even if it was, a single low-level power is not will never be enough evidence to prove that the whole system is overpowered.
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 12:16 PM	tempest... according to ur math an average of 3.5 dmg x 17 is 54.4 (17d10 with 2/3 success rate) the magic missle spell, 7 x 6 is 42 mind thrust does more damage...I did a weighted average, looking at ACTUAL saving throws. It's less than a 2/3 success rate. I can also do proper math (you didn't account for the change in success rate if you heap on more power points), read posts correctly (3.2, not 3.5, assuming 18 Intelligence), and spell "your"without looking at a dictionary. Magic Missile also reaches further (130 feet as compared to 30 feet at this level) and has the nice benefits of being able to easily hit incorporeal or ethereal things, not to mention mind-immunes like undead. Now, let's consider another option, shall we? The sorcerer's Color Spray hits a large area -- 6 squares. Every creature in the area makes a save or essentially gets owned. This flat-out KILLS creatures at 2 HD or less, since it knocks them unconscious (Coup de grace!). For creatures that are blinded and stunned, it means the party fighter can trip them easier and the party rogue can sneak attack them. If that sorcerer used spells like Color Spray, he could have taken down multiple opponents with the equivalent of a save-or-die effect -- for instance, if he used Color Spray to knock a 2 HD opponent out, the average "damage" he would have done was 22.17 HP of damage (that is, the average HP of a 2HD critter +10 to knock it to -10 and kill it), with a first-level spell slot. (Far better than the 7 damage from a concentrated Magic Missile, no?) This is actually a bit skewed; I have to weigh that with its probability of failing the save -- 58.6% assuming an 18 Charisma. This means it deals 12.99 average damage, nearly double what Magic Missile did, for the same cost... assuming only ONE target is in the area. If he happens to grab two 2HD and a 4HD in the area, it does an average of 25.98 damage + stuns and blinds the 4 HD creature for long enough for your party to kick his ass.
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 12:31 PM	I just noticed you're comparing a 2nd-level power equivalent to a 1st level spell. Sorcerers, for whatever reason, are DELAYED access to spells for one level. You've chosen a character level that is biased against the sorcerer, since the psion has a 3pp cap at this point and sorcerers have a 1pp cap (only first-level spells). You need to compare 2nd level effects with 2nd level effects, like SCORCHING RAY. (Fewer things are fire-immune at CR 4 than are mind-immune, I might add, and a sorcerer has a greater than 50% chance to hit the average touch AC at that level even with a mere 10 Dexterity.) Also, I should mention that 18s skew things a fair bit no matter how you look at them. I would suggest using the elite array (15/14/13/12/10/8) instead for comparisons -- otherwise you're comparing YOUR psion versus HIS sorcerer, and the fact that he's using Magic Missile and favoring damage suggests he doesn't know where the true power of arcane magic lies. (Hint: Not evocation.)
Bacris 06-14-07, 12:33 PM	the reason the sticky thread above gives for psionics being more powerful than wizards in spells isnt enough to prove to me that psionics aren't overpowered... so yea... i think i may have done something wrong, but i look back and i havent... how isnt my psion greater than my friends sorcerer? Hrm, 3d10 (avg 16.5 / 0 on successful save) Will save negates, doesn't work on undead / constructs / oozes / plants vs 2d4+2 (avg 7) no-save, always hits, no problem hitting undead / constructs / oozes / plants, even hits ghosts / incorporeal / etc... Yeah, that mind thrust sure is a big problem. Plain and simple, if you look at things without taking other factors into account, yes, it may look over powered, but you're leaving out a LOT of factors in Magic Missile's favor.
Dual_BSword 06-14-07, 01:00 PM	i posted this thread so that i could prove to my friends that psionics are not overpowered... i ended up doing a lot of math in the process... more than what is seen posted. and i like the way it turned out... but must you be so condescending? i mean why would you chew a guy out for abreviating 'your'.
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 01:35 PM	i posted this thread so that i could prove to my friends that psionics are not overpowered... i ended up doing a lot of math in the process... more than what is seen posted. and i like the way it turned out...Why wasn't that enough for him, so that you needed to post a thread? And why did you not tell us this earlier? Incidentally, given your comparison points (i.e. give the sorcerer a disadvantage -- he's at an even level -- and give the psion an advantage -- compare a 2nd-level power against a 1st-level spell) I seriously have to question your mathematics.but must you be so condescending? i mean why would you chew a guy out for abreviating 'your'.Because this is a forum, not AIM, and we expect proper proficiency with English. Exceptions can be made if you don't fluently speak English, but abbreviating in netspeak tends to imply that you know how to speak the language at least passably in person. For the record, the Shift key doesn't bite.
Rageheart 06-14-07, 01:42 PM	you may have noticed my posts are not exactly paragons of the english language... but they are easier to read than if I was chopping letters out of them just to save keystrokes. yes, some people are pickier than others... but all in all, if your posts are clear and mostly ledgable(sp) you don't get much greif. -- Still aching from the last time a Shift key bit me.
Dual_BSword 06-14-07, 01:45 PM	I never was wrong with my mathematics. Even when i accidentaly put 3.5 instead of 3.2, it was a typo, the answer is till as if i had used 3.2
Dual_BSword 06-14-07, 01:52 PM	I liked the shift key joke... good jokes are funny.... not so good jokes: and spell "your"without looking at a dictionary. are not
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 02:29 PM	I never was wrong with my mathematics. Even when i accidentaly put 3.5 instead of 3.2, it was a typo, the answer is till as if i had used 3.2That was your arithmetic. It wasn't your math. You didn't account for actual saving throw probabilities, nor did you account for the different resource expenditures between a 3-power-point (2nd-level power) Mind Thrust and a 1-power-point (1st-level spell) Magic Missile. You also aren't accounting for range or force damage.I liked the shift key joke... good jokes are funny.... not so good jokes: are notWhat gave you the impression I was joking?
Rageheart 06-14-07, 02:37 PM	Ok, this is getting outta hand guys... Tempest: Really is there any thing to be gained by persuing this further? Dual_BSword: Tempest can be pricklyer than a porcipine on Jolt sometimes, but he really knows his stuff. ... ok now take a Move-equivilent to refocus. :)
Dual_BSword 06-14-07, 02:45 PM	I"m done with this thread, and tempest has been very helpful.