An Erudite-style PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Erudite-style PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hunterc311
03-14-07, 10:05 PM I've been mulling over a PrC in the spirit of the Erudite, not in that it has unlimited powers, but in that the character is one who hungers for knowledge and breaks down the boundaries between disciplines in his quest to acquire access to as many different and unique psionic powers as possible.

This is a quick clump of what I have so far:

Level BAB F R W Special Manifesting
________________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Expanded discipline (second) +1 manifester level
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 - +1 manifester level
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 Expanded discipline (third) +1 manifester level
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 Access psionic mantle -
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Expanded discipline (fourth) +1 manifester level
6 +3 +2 +2 +5 Access psionic mantle -
7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Expanded discipline (fifth) +1 manifester level
8 +4 +2 +2 +6 - +1 manifester level
9 +4 +3 +3 +6 Expanded discipline (sixth) +1 manifester level
10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Absorb psionic knowledge -

Should be self explanatory. At odd levels, the character gains access to a new discipline (of their choosing) and its power selection, until they have access to all six disciplines at level 9. At levels 4 and 6, they gain access to the powers in a specific mantle, but not the mantle's special ability. At level 10, the character has the ability to permanently steal psionic powers from another psionic character's mind.

Initial concerns:

- Too much? Granted, a character will have access to many more powers, this doesn't mean they will take that many powers that they previously did not have access to normally. In general, one should assume that a character will continue to take a wide variety of powers, and will probably only take several from previously barred discipline lists. The ability amounts to a bunch of Expanded Knowledge feats at best, but I'm not sure if the ability to take as many as possible is too much. I'm considering limited access to other disciplines instead of full access, if it is determined to be too much.

- The mantle part is iffy, I'm not sure if it's going too far, but it fits in the class concept and I wanted something decent for the levels where they don't get an additional manifester level. The idea to take away the mantle special ability is set in stone, because it has less to do with the concept than just having a list of extra powers to access. I'd like there to be a treat in the middle, to encourage people to go deeper into the PrC and not just dip a bit.

- I was struggling to come up with a thematic level 10 ability, so I settled on the ability to learn powers from the minds of others. The character would be limited severely, but I'm not sure quite how to play the limitation yet. I've considered "the character can only learn a total number of powers this way equal to 1 + their Intelligence modifier" and "the character can only learn a power of a level equal to half their character level rounded down" as my main ideas for this mechanic. It would function similar to thieving mindlink.

- I'm not sure when to allow entry to this PrC, because while I don't want it to be accessed too soon (ie right at level 6), I also don't want it to be accessed too late for the latter half of the progression to really matter (ie starting at level 11). I'd also have Expanded Knowledge as a prerequisite feat, since though it would become redundant eventually, it fits perfectly. Suggestions would be appreciated for the entry level part.

Any other comments would also be appreciated, so PEACH away!
Istarion
03-14-07, 11:44 PM You should try to make it less front-loaded: a psion can take the first 4 levels without sacrificing anything for the greater power selection.

I would recommend you to put a non-manifesting level on second level, and pair those levels with abilities that go beyond purely expanding your class power list, as they are not relevant if you don't gain powers known
nobodez
03-15-07, 01:55 AM I'd actually just reverse the manifesting progression; 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10.
Bacris
03-15-07, 08:26 AM I'd actually say 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9

That capstone ability is worth a ML in and of itself.

Definitely need to reduce how front-loaded this PrC is.

Also - what are the prereqs?
BobbyJim
03-15-07, 08:53 AM I remember trying to design an Erudite PrC. The way it worked is that at first level you gain no increase to manifester level, but you gain expanded knowledge as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, you start learning an unlimited amount of 1st level powers in the same manner that an erudite does. At 3rd level, you can start learning extra 2nd level powers, 3rd level powers at 4th level, and so on, until you can learn unlimited powers of any level at 10th level. The file is hanging around somewhere on my hard drive, with a bunch of other unfinished projects.
hunterc311
03-15-07, 10:40 PM Regarding front-loadedness:

- You can take the first 3 levels without sacrificing a manifester level, but you do still sacrifice a psionic feat in the grand progression. Prestige classes are supposed to be better than base classes, so I'm not sure I'm concerned with the fact that you get what boils down to a few Expanded Knowledge feats more than a Psion base class would normally get, in the first 3 levels.

- For comparison, an Elocater has more in levels 1-3 than this class has. It gets two good saves, better BAB progression, a single bonus feat in Sidestep Charge, two other decent abilities, and two manifester levels. My PrC gets only one good save, weak BAB progression, no special abilities, only "access" to other powers, and three manifester levels.

- On the same note, the Illithid Slayer and the Psion Uncarnate get about an equal amount of stuff as my PrC does in the first 3 levels. Heck, the Anarchic Initiate gets 3 manifester levels in the first 3 class levels and some extra goodies as well, seems a bit even with this PrC as well.

- Once you hit the middle, you start losing manifester levels and some players might stop at 3 to avoid that, but that's why I made the level 10 ability so enticing. I definitely won't have a manifester level at 10, and I want there to be a weakening in the middle instead of somewhere in the beginning. I want the loss of manifester levels to have a conceptual purpose, not just be convenient for placement.

Prereqs are still undetermined, but Expanded Knowledge will be one of them, as well as the ability to manifest maybe 3rd level powers? Still unsure where I want the PrC to be enterable from... not too soon, not too late... somewhere around 7-8?

feedback is good so far though, I'll still consider moving the ML's around. :)
Bacris
03-15-07, 10:44 PM Please don't compare to the anarchic initiate for balance - it is one of the most poorly balanced Psi PrCs created. :)
Nifft
03-16-07, 06:05 PM How about...

Erudite Psion

Prereqs: Must have used Expanded Knowledge to learn powers from three different Discipline lists.

Benefits:
BAB, HD, saves, skills: as base Psion (no Discipline specific skills).

Special:
Manifesting: At every level but first, the Erudite Psion get +1 Psion level for the purpose of blah blah blah.

Expanded Repertoire: At every odd level and 10th level, the Erudite Psion gains access to one power from any Discipline list, as though he had taken the Expanded Knowledge feat. (But he does not actually gain the Expanded Knowledge feat.)

Expanded Discipline: At 8th and 10th level, the Erudite Psion designates another Discipline's power list from which he knows a power via his Expanded Knowledge feats. From that point on, the Erudite Psion may freely choose powers from the designated Discipline when leveling up.

So in the end, he has 5 powers from any disciplines and (effectively) three disciplines.

This costs him three feats and one manifester level, and opportunity costs of 2 bonus Psion feats.

Cheers, -- N
hunterc311
03-16-07, 10:42 PM How about...

Erudite Psion

Thoughts about your suggestions:

- The PrC would be empty and devoid of meaning if all it turns out to be is a class with five feats and two extra disciplines. There's no flavor to that, it almost sounds like a core Fighter. :D

- Gaining all those Expanded Knowledge-style powers would be made redundant by the time you started getting extra disciplines, because the powers he takes would be from the disciplines that he would probably eventually want to open up for himself entirely. Then most of the PrC would be moot and most of what you got made redundant.

- Not to mention, the three prerequisite powers also stand a good chance of being moot, which is too much of a price to pay just to get into a PrC that gives you very little in the way of power or ability.

- There is no point to go all 10 levels in your version of this PrC, because there is nothing exciting or particularly meaningful at level 10. Heck there isn't really anything worthy of prestige at most of the levels.

Appreciate the feedback though, still looking for suggestions on how to mold this PrC into something playable and balanced, based on what I have so far.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hunterc311 03-14-07, 10:05 PM	I've been mulling over a PrC in the spirit of the Erudite, not in that it has unlimited powers, but in that the character is one who hungers for knowledge and breaks down the boundaries between disciplines in his quest to acquire access to as many different and unique psionic powers as possible. This is a quick clump of what I have so far: Level BAB F R W Special Manifesting ________________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________ 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Expanded discipline (second) +1 manifester level 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 - +1 manifester level 3 +1 +1 +1 +3 Expanded discipline (third) +1 manifester level 4 +2 +1 +1 +4 Access psionic mantle - 5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Expanded discipline (fourth) +1 manifester level 6 +3 +2 +2 +5 Access psionic mantle - 7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Expanded discipline (fifth) +1 manifester level 8 +4 +2 +2 +6 - +1 manifester level 9 +4 +3 +3 +6 Expanded discipline (sixth) +1 manifester level 10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Absorb psionic knowledge - Should be self explanatory. At odd levels, the character gains access to a new discipline (of their choosing) and its power selection, until they have access to all six disciplines at level 9. At levels 4 and 6, they gain access to the powers in a specific mantle, but not the mantle's special ability. At level 10, the character has the ability to permanently steal psionic powers from another psionic character's mind. Initial concerns: - Too much? Granted, a character will have access to many more powers, this doesn't mean they will take that many powers that they previously did not have access to normally. In general, one should assume that a character will continue to take a wide variety of powers, and will probably only take several from previously barred discipline lists. The ability amounts to a bunch of Expanded Knowledge feats at best, but I'm not sure if the ability to take as many as possible is too much. I'm considering limited access to other disciplines instead of full access, if it is determined to be too much. - The mantle part is iffy, I'm not sure if it's going too far, but it fits in the class concept and I wanted something decent for the levels where they don't get an additional manifester level. The idea to take away the mantle special ability is set in stone, because it has less to do with the concept than just having a list of extra powers to access. I'd like there to be a treat in the middle, to encourage people to go deeper into the PrC and not just dip a bit. - I was struggling to come up with a thematic level 10 ability, so I settled on the ability to learn powers from the minds of others. The character would be limited severely, but I'm not sure quite how to play the limitation yet. I've considered "the character can only learn a total number of powers this way equal to 1 + their Intelligence modifier" and "the character can only learn a power of a level equal to half their character level rounded down" as my main ideas for this mechanic. It would function similar to thieving mindlink. - I'm not sure when to allow entry to this PrC, because while I don't want it to be accessed too soon (ie right at level 6), I also don't want it to be accessed too late for the latter half of the progression to really matter (ie starting at level 11). I'd also have Expanded Knowledge as a prerequisite feat, since though it would become redundant eventually, it fits perfectly. Suggestions would be appreciated for the entry level part. Any other comments would also be appreciated, so PEACH away!
Istarion 03-14-07, 11:44 PM	You should try to make it less front-loaded: a psion can take the first 4 levels without sacrificing anything for the greater power selection. I would recommend you to put a non-manifesting level on second level, and pair those levels with abilities that go beyond purely expanding your class power list, as they are not relevant if you don't gain powers known
nobodez 03-15-07, 01:55 AM	I'd actually just reverse the manifesting progression; 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10.
Bacris 03-15-07, 08:26 AM	I'd actually say 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 That capstone ability is worth a ML in and of itself. Definitely need to reduce how front-loaded this PrC is. Also - what are the prereqs?
BobbyJim 03-15-07, 08:53 AM	I remember trying to design an Erudite PrC. The way it worked is that at first level you gain no increase to manifester level, but you gain expanded knowledge as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, you start learning an unlimited amount of 1st level powers in the same manner that an erudite does. At 3rd level, you can start learning extra 2nd level powers, 3rd level powers at 4th level, and so on, until you can learn unlimited powers of any level at 10th level. The file is hanging around somewhere on my hard drive, with a bunch of other unfinished projects.
hunterc311 03-15-07, 10:40 PM	Regarding front-loadedness: - You can take the first 3 levels without sacrificing a manifester level, but you do still sacrifice a psionic feat in the grand progression. Prestige classes are supposed to be better than base classes, so I'm not sure I'm concerned with the fact that you get what boils down to a few Expanded Knowledge feats more than a Psion base class would normally get, in the first 3 levels. - For comparison, an Elocater has more in levels 1-3 than this class has. It gets two good saves, better BAB progression, a single bonus feat in Sidestep Charge, two other decent abilities, and two manifester levels. My PrC gets only one good save, weak BAB progression, no special abilities, only "access" to other powers, and three manifester levels. - On the same note, the Illithid Slayer and the Psion Uncarnate get about an equal amount of stuff as my PrC does in the first 3 levels. Heck, the Anarchic Initiate gets 3 manifester levels in the first 3 class levels and some extra goodies as well, seems a bit even with this PrC as well. - Once you hit the middle, you start losing manifester levels and some players might stop at 3 to avoid that, but that's why I made the level 10 ability so enticing. I definitely won't have a manifester level at 10, and I want there to be a weakening in the middle instead of somewhere in the beginning. I want the loss of manifester levels to have a conceptual purpose, not just be convenient for placement. Prereqs are still undetermined, but Expanded Knowledge will be one of them, as well as the ability to manifest maybe 3rd level powers? Still unsure where I want the PrC to be enterable from... not too soon, not too late... somewhere around 7-8? feedback is good so far though, I'll still consider moving the ML's around. :)
Bacris 03-15-07, 10:44 PM	Please don't compare to the anarchic initiate for balance - it is one of the most poorly balanced Psi PrCs created. :)
Nifft 03-16-07, 06:05 PM	How about... Erudite Psion Prereqs: Must have used Expanded Knowledge to learn powers from three different Discipline lists. Benefits: BAB, HD, saves, skills: as base Psion (no Discipline specific skills). Special: Manifesting: At every level but first, the Erudite Psion get +1 Psion level for the purpose of blah blah blah. Expanded Repertoire: At every odd level and 10th level, the Erudite Psion gains access to one power from any Discipline list, as though he had taken the Expanded Knowledge feat. (But he does not actually gain the Expanded Knowledge feat.) Expanded Discipline: At 8th and 10th level, the Erudite Psion designates another Discipline's power list from which he knows a power via his Expanded Knowledge feats. From that point on, the Erudite Psion may freely choose powers from the designated Discipline when leveling up. So in the end, he has 5 powers from any disciplines and (effectively) three disciplines. This costs him three feats and one manifester level, and opportunity costs of 2 bonus Psion feats. Cheers, -- N
hunterc311 03-16-07, 10:42 PM	How about... Erudite Psion Thoughts about your suggestions: - The PrC would be empty and devoid of meaning if all it turns out to be is a class with five feats and two extra disciplines. There's no flavor to that, it almost sounds like a core Fighter. :D - Gaining all those Expanded Knowledge-style powers would be made redundant by the time you started getting extra disciplines, because the powers he takes would be from the disciplines that he would probably eventually want to open up for himself entirely. Then most of the PrC would be moot and most of what you got made redundant. - Not to mention, the three prerequisite powers also stand a good chance of being moot, which is too much of a price to pay just to get into a PrC that gives you very little in the way of power or ability. - There is no point to go all 10 levels in your version of this PrC, because there is nothing exciting or particularly meaningful at level 10. Heck there isn't really anything worthy of prestige at most of the levels. Appreciate the feedback though, still looking for suggestions on how to mold this PrC into something playable and balanced, based on what I have so far.