Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aspeon 08-21-07, 03:26 AM	Does anyone know what happens to a psicrystal when its owner dies? I admit i have not done much research on this but from what i have i can find no reason why a psicrystal can not survive after its owners death. Which leads to my second question. "If with the proper feats taken for example (improved psicrystal) whouldnt it be possiable to create mental double of yourself within your crystal?" It might not be a lich but its one way to cheat death that is if its even possiable.
Racinante 08-21-07, 09:32 AM	Does anyone know what happens to a psicrystal when its owner dies? I admit i have not done much research on this but from what i have i can find no reason why a psicrystal can not survive after its owners death. Which leads to my second question. "If with the proper feats taken for example (improved psicrystal) whouldnt it be possiable to create mental double of yourself within your crystal?" It might not be a lich but its one way to cheat death that is if its even possiable. A psicrystal is a fragment of a psionic character's personality, brought into physical form and a semblance of life (via the Psicrystal Affinity feat). If its master is dead, then so is its master's personality, therefore the psicrystal ceases to exist as it has no physical existence outside of the feat and its master.
jbsaff 08-21-07, 10:13 AM	To the best of my knowledge, this kind of situation hasn't been nailed down by WotC. The psicrystal is a construct with a specific number of HD. I could see a DM ruling that it continued to live on, acting out the personality fragment that it was given. However, unless you are talking about using Astral Seed, I don't think this is going to be much of a way to cheat death. A third party has attempted to offer some options in this vein. Go check out Dreamscarred Press (http://dreamscarredpress.com)
InkBlot 08-21-07, 10:16 AM	It would probably turn into an inert lump. Maybe even the crystal body of it would dissolve (especially if the crystal was formed from ectoplasm originally). However, it isn't stated explicitly anywhere "this is what happens when a psicrystal's master dies." And there could be options which are more fun than simply "it dies too." Perhaps the psicrystal lives on as the last vestige of the master's mind. Perhaps the psicrystal gradually develops a more complete personality, now that it is an independent creature, or perhaps it starts absorbing more traits (maybe even memories!) from the lingering psychic vibrations of it's dead master. There's an elephant in the room. In D&D, death isn't always permanent. The real question is, what happens to your psicrystal when you come back to life? You would certainly still have a psicrystal upon revivification. You still benefit from all your feats, and you still have the Psicrystal Affinity feat. But would it be the same psicrystal? What if the crystal dissolved when you died? Would you have to make another? The only true answer is "work it out with your DM." Again, it isn't written anywhere in any 3.5 book what happens to your psicrystal when you or it crosses the river Styx (going either way). I would recommend that it take no more than 1 week, require nothing more than meditation, and cost no XP or GP. You're solidifying a shard of your personality, not crafting a miniature crystal golem.
Racinante 08-21-07, 03:29 PM	However, it isn't stated explicitly anywhere "this is what happens when a psicrystal's master dies." True, however, in my opinion, it does not need to be stated explicitly. If you die, then you are an object and not a creature. Objects do not have and cannot gain the benefits, in and of themselves, of feats. The psicrystal exists only because of the feat. Since the body is an object and gains no benefit from feats, the psicrystal (the benefit of the feat) does not exist.
InkBlot 08-21-07, 04:21 PM	I'm just going to play devil's advocate. A psicrystal is a creature, not the benefit of a feat. The benefit of the Psicrystal Affinity feat is "this feat allows you to gain a psicrystal." The benefit is not "your psicrystal is alive" or "a peice of your personality animates a psicrystal." Not being able to benefit from the feat simply means that you no longer can gain a psicrystal, just like you no longer can gain a new sword or a new warhorse. Being unable to gain something does not make that something cease to exist. A better argument might be that, because a psicrystal's max hit points equal 1/2 it's master's max hit points, that when the master dies the psicrystal's max hit points zero out. This would be true, except that the dead master still has hit points. All objects have hit points. But that "half a corpse's HP" argument is patently silly, and I'll disregard it as impractical for that reason.
Tedronai 08-21-07, 04:54 PM	A more reasonable take on that would be that the psicrystal no longer has a master, and as such, that non-existent master has no HP. Half of nothing is nothing. The psicrystal therefore has no HP, and is destroyed (rather than ceasing to exist, which is simply absurd). If you're brought back from the dead, you still have the feat, and so can still gain a psicrystal, since you do not currently have one, the same as if you had just gained the feat.
Racinante 08-21-07, 05:09 PM	I'm just going to play devil's advocate. No problem, let me play rules-lawyer... ;) A psicrystal is a creature, not the benefit of a feat. Hmmm. Let's see if there is any evidence to support this. Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic] You have created a psicrystal. Prerequisites: Manifester level 1st. Benefit: This feat allows you to gain a psicrystal. So we have created or are allowed to gain a psicrystal. Next question, what is a psicrystal? A psicrystal is a fragment of a psionic character's personality brought into physical form a semblance of life appears as a crystalline construct about the size of a human hand Note that nowhere does it state that the psicrystal is a creature. It does has a semblence of life (like a robot perhaps), and appears as a crystalline construct. The rules do not state that it is a crystalline construct, just that it appears as one. Furthermore Because it is an extension of its creator's personality, a character's psicrystal is in some ways a part of him. So it is an extension of its creator's personality. Still this does not imply that it is a creature. A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type. Again note that the rules do not state that it is a construct, merely that it is treated as one for effects that depend on its type. Psicrystal Basics: Use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes. Note that we are using a set of statistics, but the rules do not state that these are the statistics for a psicrystal. Psicrystal (monster entry) A psicrystal's characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master's Hit Dice ... Here the characteristics of a psicrystal depend on its master. It has no HD independent of its master, therefore it has no separate existence and is not a creature. The benefit of the Psicrystal Affinity feat is "this feat allows you to gain a psicrystal." The benefit is not "your psicrystal is alive" or "a peice of your personality animates a psicrystal." Not being able to benefit from the feat simply means that you no longer can gain a psicrystal, just like you no longer can gain a new sword or a new warhorse. Being unable to gain something does not make that something cease to exist. However, the feat does not define what a psicrystal is. Also the feat makes two statements. You have created a psicrystal. This feat allows you to gain a psicrystal. So which is it? Do you create or do you gain a psicrystal. If it is you gain a psicrystal, then how? A better argument might be that, because a psicrystal's max hit points equal 1/2 it's master's max hit points, that when the master dies the psicrystal's max hit points zero out. This would be true, except that the dead master still has hit points. All objects have hit points. But that "half a corpse's HP" argument is patently silly, and I'll disregard it as impractical for that reason. OK, lets disregard the HP piece, but the characteristics still remain, specifically its HD, and that does require a master. Objects do not have HD (unless they are the target of animate objects or similar magic).
Racinante 08-21-07, 05:15 PM	The psicrystal therefore has no HP, and is destroyed (rather than ceasing to exist, which is simply absurd). Absurd? Maybe, but this is fantasy after all. Why would a creature that is summoned vanish when its time has expired. Why would a creature that is summoned and killed return unharmed to where it came from? There are a lot of rules in the game that are absurd. Since the psicrystal is created from nothing and is a personality fragment of its master, why would it not cease to exist when the master died?
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 06:06 PM	Well in the Expanded Psicrystals book from dreamscarred press, they have a creature which is the result of a psicrystal being affected by its master's untimely, violent death. It basically becomes a ferel little critter, draining psionic power by force to stay alive.
Tedronai 08-21-07, 06:27 PM	Absurd? Maybe, but this is fantasy after all. Why would a creature that is summoned vanish when its time has expired. Why would a creature that is summoned and killed return unharmed to where it came from? There are a lot of rules in the game that are absurd. Since the psicrystal is created from nothing and is a personality fragment of its master, why would it not cease to exist when the master died? Nowhere does the EPH suggest that a psicrystal is 'created from nothing', but rather simply that it's master has created it and that the Psicrystal Affinity feat allows a character to do this. It does not say that this form is maintained by the master (and thus that with the master's passing that the form would dissipate). The psicrystal is created, and thereafter exists without dependance on it's creator's actions (though it's creator can temporarily expand it's existence to include legs, for instance, or enhance it with a more complex personality).
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 06:30 PM	Nowhere does the EPH suggest that a psicrystal is 'created from nothing', but rather simply that it's master has created it and that the Psicrystal Affinity feat allows a character to do this. It does not say that this form is maintained by the master (and thus that with the master's passing that the form would dissipate). The psicrystal is created, and thereafter exists without dependance on it's creator's actions (though it's creator can temporarily expand it's existence to include legs, for instance, or enhance it with a more complex personality). Actually it does say that its form is sustained by the master... it says the psicrystal's hitdice are equal to the master's hitdice. If the master's changes, the psicrystal's does as well. If the master dies, he has no hitdice.
AntiDjinn 08-21-07, 06:46 PM	The feat Psicrystal Affinity (and Improved Psicrystal, Psicrystal Containment, and any other pet rock feats) as possessed by the character, not the crystal itself. When the character is dead, he does not possess the benefit of his feats. If you look at the benefit line of the feat it refers you to XPH p. 21. So if you loose the benefit then all the stuff on pages 21-24 goes away. Psicrystals do have a creature write-up, but the abilities listed are based on the master's level which is inapplicable while he is dead. The creature write-up also includes some technical errors: It lists the psicrystal as having the Alertness feat. This is not the case; it grants its owner this feat when it is within 5 feet. It also says the crystal has the Share Powers ability, when, in fact, it can only serve as the subject of it's owner's powers and can not choose to share powers of its own. The creature entry also gives it a ground movement rate of 30 feet and a climb speed of 20. But the Self-Propulsion (Su) ability says: "As a standard action, its owner can will a psicrystal to form spidery, ectoplasmic legs that grant the psicrystal a land speed of 30 feet and a climb speed of 20 feet. The legs fade into nothingness after one day" So if the owner is dead, he can't take the standard action needed to grant movement. If the crystals self-propulsion has already been activated, this it can walk for the rest of the day before its legs fade and there is then no owner to take a standard action to will the ability to activated again.
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 06:53 PM	Still, you have to love the idea of a feral psicrystal energized by its master's death and preying on small creatures like rats and insects for the meagre psychic energy their minds provide.
Aspeon 08-21-07, 09:07 PM	The feat Psicrystal Affinity (and Improved Psicrystal, Psicrystal Containment, and any other pet rock feats) as possessed by the character, not the crystal itself. When the character is dead, he does not possess the benefit of his feats. If you look at the benefit line of the feat it refers you to XPH p. 21. So if you loose the benefit then all the stuff on pages 21-24 goes away. Psicrystals do have a creature write-up, but the abilities listed are based on the master's level which is inapplicable while he is dead. The creature write-up also includes some technical errors: It lists the psicrystal as having the Alertness feat. This is not the case; it grants its owner this feat when it is within 5 feet. It also says the crystal has the Share Powers ability, when, in fact, it can only serve as the subject of it's owner's powers and can not choose to share powers of its own. The creature entry also gives it a ground movement rate of 30 feet and a climb speed of 20. But the Self-Propulsion (Su) ability says: "As a standard action, its owner can will a psicrystal to form spidery, ectoplasmic legs that grant the psicrystal a land speed of 30 feet and a climb speed of 20 feet. The legs fade into nothingness after one day" So if the owner is dead, he can't take the standard action needed to grant movement. If the crystals self-propulsion has already been activated, this it can walk for the rest of the day before its legs fade and there is then no owner to take a standard action to will the ability to activated again. Improved psicrystal states that the owner can implant another personality INTO the psicrystal. And the PSICRYSTAL'S personality adjusts and becomes a blend of all implanted personality framgments. So if the owner dies wouldnt you think the personalitys remain in the crystal.
Nirid 08-21-07, 09:42 PM	This might be the one way that psicrystals are somewhat lacking compared to familiars. A familiar was and will be an animal again. A psycrystal does not exist before you create it and any information on it that exists assumes that it is in the service of a psion. There is no official information for masterless psicrystals. It seems safe to assume that don't (can't?) exist. Since the rules for creating and losing them are non-existent just assume that when you go it goes, and when (if) you come back so does it. It's not like there is any cost or penalty for the process other then feat you already have.
AntiDjinn 08-21-07, 11:13 PM	Improved psicrystal states that the owner can implant another personality INTO the psicrystal. And the PSICRYSTAL'S personality adjusts and becomes a blend of all implanted personality framgments. So if the owner dies wouldnt you think the personalitys remain in the crystal. No. The benefit section of the feat remains the benefit of the feat; if the feat goes away so does its benefit. If it were otherwise, then why not use Improved Psicrystal to implant a second personality type, use Psychic Reformation to change out the feat, and repeat until your crystal has all personality types? Implanting all 15 personality types (or having multiple Sage crystal Knowledge subjects) takes just 14 manifestations of Psychic Reformation. That is just 700 XP (350 if you pay someone else to manifest and split the cost) and 140 minutes of your time to get the combined benefits off all psicrystals (and possibly +14 effective psionic character levels for determining your crystal's abilities, depending on whether or not you view that portion of the feat's benefit as being implanted). Does this seem OK? Or would it be better to suppose that you don't retain the benefit of feats that you don't have? Should be also suppose that for every creature that has ever died since the dawn of life, that the benefits of every feat ever taken continues in some way?
Tedronai 08-22-07, 04:11 AM	All in all, Antidjinn, you're suffering from several misconceptions. A psicrystal has both a Wisdom and Charisma score, thus defining it as a creature. It also has an intelligence score and HD, thus allowing it to gain feats. How does the fact that it grants alertness to it's master when within 5' prevent the psicrystal itself from having that feat? The movement modes of a psicrystal in it's monster entry include an asterix specifying that they apply only while the self-propulsion ability is active. The Psicrystal Affinity feat states that you CREATE and GAIN a psicrystal. It does NOT state that your continued life maintains the physical existence of the psicrystal (regardless of whether the psicrystal would continue as a creature or not, it's physical form would not simply blink out of existence).
forsaken1111 08-22-07, 04:14 AM	The Psicrystal Affinity feat states that you CREATE and GAIN a psicrystal. It does NOT state that your continued life maintains the physical existence of the psicrystal (regardless of whether the psicrystal would continue as a creature or not, it's physical form would not simply blink out of existence). However it DOES specifically say that its HD are equal to its master's HD... thus if you die, you have no HD and your psicrystal, by extension, no longer has HD. Thus, it dies. It may not simply vanish, it will probably be a dead cracked crystal next to the dead broken psion.
Tedronai 08-22-07, 04:57 AM	As I have been suggesting since the beginning. It may be destroyed or simply cease being 'alive' at the moment of it's master's death, but it will still exist in that it's physical form will remain.
AntiDjinn 08-22-07, 10:59 AM	The Psicrystal Affinity feat states that you CREATE and GAIN a psicrystal. It does NOT state that your continued life maintains the physical existence of the psicrystal (regardless of whether the psicrystal would continue as a creature or not, it's physical form would not simply blink out of existence). It states that the ability to move is based on you activating it as a standard action. Thus, when you are dead and unable to take actions it is immobile (or looses its movement within 1 day if you had already activated the ability). And, one more time, it is the benefit of a feat. If the benefit of a feat persists after the feat is gone then why not have dozens of psicrystals running around by reforming the feat in/out? You would only have a link to the last of these crystals, but could have many pet rocks with a fragment of your personality. Why not have multiple Improved Psicrystal personalities with only one copy of the feat (or not even keep the feat at all)? Reason: The feat provides the link between pet rock and master. If the link (feat) is gone the rock has no master and therefore no hit dice.
McPoyo 08-22-07, 11:31 AM	Can anyone provide a page reference of quote from the SRD where it says a dead individual has 0 hit dice? I think that's the thing about this argument that bothers me the most, and that appears to be the only argument against a psicrystal retaining "life" after the master dies. After all, dieing doesn't reduce you to Non-Hp (Having a maximum HP of "-"), especially seeing as how when you magic-jar into something else, you retain their Hit Points, which tends to cause me to believe that the body itself is what determines the total number of hit points, and would retain those effective maximum values even in death. After all, taking hit point damage doesn't reduce the psicrystals maximum HP, so why would being at -10 HP reduce the psicrystals max HP. That may just be my interpretation, but I think the salient point here is still: Can anyone give a reference to a dead creature having a null hit die value?
Racinante 08-22-07, 01:53 PM	Nowhere does the EPH suggest that a psicrystal is 'created from nothing' Actually it says precisely that. A psicrystal is a fragment of a psionic character's personality, brought into physical form and a semblance of life (via the Psicrystal Affinity feat). No rocks, no crystals, no dead bodies, no objects. It is brought into physical form from a ephemeral fragment of a character's personality. It did not exist prior to taking the feat, and when you take the feat, it exists, created from nothing physical.
Tedronai 08-22-07, 03:44 PM	@AntiDjinn I am not saying that it would retain it's mobility indefinitely, or that it would remain animate after you die (or otherwise lose the benefit of Psicrystal Affinity). I am saying that the crystal itself, now as an inanimate object rather than a creature, will remain. @McPoyo It is not that a dead individual has 0 HD, but rather that they have NO HD. A subtle but vast distinction on par with ability scores of '0' and '-' being distinct. An object (such as the corpse of the former manifester) has no HD, yet still has HP. I am unaware of any process by which someone/something could be reduced to 0 HD (the closest I can think of being negative levels and level loss, but that results in death from negative levels, which don't actually reduce your HD for some time, by which point you are already dead) A null score is different from a score of 0, despite resulting, in this case, in an identical outcome for the psicrystal. Being at -10 HP causes you to be dead, which causes you to be an object, which causes your corpse to have no HD, which causes the psicrystal to no longer be a creature. @Racinante That quote does not say what you are interpreting it to say. It is an ephemeral concept brought into physical form, yes, but that does not mean that the physical form itself is ephemeral. Any suggestion that it is expands significantly from the material presented in WotC products, as well as deviating noticeably from those same works.
Racinante 08-22-07, 03:56 PM	@Racinante That quote does not say what you are interpreting it to say. It is an ephemeral concept brought into physical form, yes, but that does not mean that the physical form itself is ephemeral. Any suggestion that it is expands significantly from the material presented in WotC products, as well as deviating noticeably from those same works. I did not state and did not mean to imply (sorry for that) that the physical form itself is ephemeral. The rules clearly state that it appears as a crystalline construct. My apologies for not being clear on that.
AntiDjinn 08-22-07, 05:43 PM	A psicrystal has both a Wisdom and Charisma score, thus defining it as a creature. Can you cite actual rules text that states that these two stats define one as a creature? Can you cite text that these two stats define the creature as permanent and independent? An Astral Construct has both Wis and Cha scores. How is it that these stats define the Psicrystal as a regular creature, but don't do the same for the Astral Construct?
Racinante 08-22-07, 06:23 PM	Can you cite actual rules text that states that these two stats define one as a creature? I can quote the following from the basics for stats: Wisdom (Wis): Every creature has a Wisdom score. Charisma (Cha): Every creature has a Charisma score. Can you cite text that these two stats define the creature as permanent and independent? Nope, not me. :) An Astral Construct has both Wis and Cha scores. How is it that these stats define the Psicrystal as a regular creature, but don't do the same for the Astral Construct? I've always considered the Astral Construct a temporary regular creature. Sort of like a temporarily created golem.
AntiDjinn 08-22-07, 06:48 PM	The text says every creature has a Cha and Wis score, but not that possession of these stats is the definition of a creature. The text quoted says that a creature must have these stats, not that having these stats is what makes the creature. Every life form has carbon atoms. A diamond has carbon atoms. Therefore, a diamond is a lifeform?
Racinante 08-23-07, 10:38 AM	The text says every creature has a Cha and Wis score, but not that possession of these stats is the definition of a creature. The text quoted says that a creature must have these stats, not that having these stats is what makes the creature. Every life form has carbon atoms. A diamond has carbon atoms. Therefore, a diamond is a lifeform? Very good point.
zzo38 08-23-07, 05:38 PM	Maybe it becomes a normal crystal, and when you are resurected then it is a real psicrystal again.
AntiDjinn 08-23-07, 09:28 PM	If it is True Res then your crystal should be in your shirt pocket if that is where it was when you died. You come back with all your feats and that includes Psicrystal Affinity so your crystal should reform when you do. For standard Resurrection or lower, yeah, you probably have to go find your pet rock where ever it was laying if your party didn't bring it along. My DM does count the inert crystal as a part of you for purposes of casting Resurrection. It was formed from a fragment of your consciousness willed into existece. For divine magic the connection need only be symbolic; it isn't like the spell biologically regenerates you from that toenail the party recovered.
Tedronai 08-24-07, 07:06 PM	How is Resurrection or Raise Dead different from True Resurrection with regards to keeping the benefits of your feats? IF a psicrystal were to dissipate upon the death of the master, then it would reform when the master was brought back to life, regardless of the means. If a psicrystal does not dissipate when the master dies (which I find infinitely more plausible), then the psicrystal is simply reanimated and the two must find each other by whatever means are available to them. From 'Using Magic Items (Part Four)', By Skip Williams 'When a magic item is subjected to a magical attack, it can make a saving throw just as a creature can (though it is still just an object unless it is intelligent).' This references, though indirectly, that intelligent items are creatures. The main difference between a normal object (even a magic item) and an intelligent item is that the intelligent item has an Int, Wis, and Cha score (the other differences being the ability to perceive it's surroundings, communicate at some level, and the possibility of skill ranks, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities, but those are all either things that are dependant on Wis or Cha, or are not possessed by all creatures). Since it can easily be demonstrated that an Int score is not necessary to be defined as a creature, and since it is clearly stated elsewhere (and referenced previously in this thread) that all creatures have a Wis and Cha score, those can be logically derived as the distincion between objects and creatures. Creatures have them. Objects don't.
AntiDjinn 08-24-07, 08:31 PM	True Res is different from all other forms in that no part of you need be present. It effectively transports your body to the location of the person casting the spell (actually, it makes a new one and decommissions the old one). So with True Res you should never have to go looking for anything that is part of your character. With Raise Dead, the rock probably just reanimates where ever it last was; no provisions are made by the spell to recover more than was presented to the caster. True Res, by the way, is one reason why no D&D prison can be made completely escape-proof without using some form of stasis, petrification, or permanent mind-control. A character with enough resources could simply kill himself in his cell and have a friend waiting outside cast True Res to recover and free him in one step. When that spell is on the table, executing a prisoner means you actually loose control of him. You need to keep the subject in a manner that prevents him from ever dying. Either that, or Mind Seed him, so his cohorts are not recovering the character they think they are.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-24-07, 09:54 PM	Try looking in the Mind's Eye for the article on the psionic legacy weapon. The flavor text says it was crafted by a psychic warrior from the psicrystal of his brother. He knew his brother was dead when the psicrystal fell over lifeless. It's right on the WotC website, so I consider it official enough. And like others have said: it's a fragment of the psion's personality. Without him, it's nothing.