Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sijigs 08-28-07, 07:43 PM	Touchsight Psychometabolism Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal; see text Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 5 You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment. Your touchsight field emanates from you out to 60 feet. You ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment, though you must have line of effect to a creature or an object to discern it. You do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures; you can detect and pinpoint all creatures within 60 feet. In many circumstances, comparing your regular senses to what you learn with touchsight is enough to tell you the difference between visible, invisible, hiding, and concealed creatures. Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, the radius of your touchsight field increases by 10 feet. Got attacked by a giant gator hiding from mucky sewer water, so I turned this power on. DM thought that this power won't detect crocs underneath.. so I got eaten twice! grrrr Although we got spot checks to prevent being us being flatfooted when they broke through the surface?? Apparently they have Tremorsense. What do you think? :confused:
Deekin 08-28-07, 07:45 PM	Could you feel it if you touched it? Then Touchsight could detect it.
Tempest Stormwind 08-28-07, 07:47 PM	Line of Effect is the key part. Going over the SRD, I can't see how water blocks line of effect at all except for fire spells. Thus, you could feel underwater with Touchsight perfectly well.
sijigs 08-28-07, 08:30 PM	And for the record your touch sight would certainly not penetrate the Goo, RAW It specifically states you need line of effect and a heavy crust goo would certainly block that line of effect. from the DM. Not sure if this solves anything.
CrimsonDeath 08-28-07, 09:30 PM	from the DM. Not sure if this solves anything. Unfortunately, written rules can't override DM fiat. However, you might try asking how the alligators were breathing if their nostrils didn't break the surface, or how they noticed you in the first place.
sijigs 08-28-07, 10:13 PM	Unfortunately, written rules can't override DM fiat. However, you might try asking how the alligators were breathing if their nostrils didn't break the surface, or how they noticed you in the first place. Tremorsense, apparently.
Jaid 08-28-07, 11:31 PM	would the goo have stopped detect magic? hold person? dominate? because that's what he's saying if it breaks LoE. honestly, if the goo breaks LoE, then the crocodile has to sunder it before it can hit you.
CrimsonDeath 08-29-07, 04:44 AM	Tremorsense, apparently. Does that mean you're guessing that the crocodile had tremorsense? Or does it mean that you asked, and the DM told you it was tremorsense?
Rageheart 08-29-07, 10:54 AM	Next time manifest Touchsight augmented with Burrowing power. :)
Racinante 08-29-07, 11:53 AM	A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects. Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover. Touchsight: You ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment, though you must have line of effect to a creature or an object to discern it. Based on this, the DM was correct in not allowing you to discern the croc while submerged. This isn't definitive, however, and one could argue that touchsight should fall under the domain of magical effects (although it affects you and not the croc). Also total cover prohibits attacks against the target, but you can still make attacks against the submerged creature, so there is a contradiction there as well.
AntiDjinn 08-29-07, 01:24 PM	What it all comes down to is: Did the croc cover or concealment from the water/slime? Touchsight is an emanation centered on you. Emanations ignore concealment in their area (a fireball doesn't care if you are hiding) but can't ignore cover. Does water have hit points? On one level it seems the answer should be No; swimmers can move through water without having to sunder it as they go. But creatures with a burrowing speed don't have to attack the ground and soil has hit points. Water in D&D can block arrows and other projectiles so it must have hit points per unit of volume. Note that ice has 3 hit points per inch and ice is less dense than water. (Yes, counter-intuitive, but water expands, loosing density, as it freezes. This is why icebergs float). I am not sure Burrowing Touchsight would work in this case. The feat says you can manifest a power against targets with cover, but Touchsight is manifest on you. It has an area that detects subjects, but doesn't target them. What you would need is a similar feat that affects the area of your power. The difference: If you manifest Burrowing Energy Ball you can shoot through a wall to hit someone in the next room, but when the power goes off the wall still provides cover to you and anyone else on your side of the barrier. Burrowing power, as written, is a targeting modifier, not a result modifier. A feat that allows emanations, bursts, and spreads to ignore cover would simply treat the wall as not being within the area. And if your DM did allow Burrowing Touchsight to modify the emanation then how are you going to handle the mechanics? To bypass a barrier you must make a Psicraft check with a DC of 10 + the hardness of the barrier (+20 for barriers without a hardness rating, but water is 0 because ice is 0) + 1 per foot of thickness. This means you must already know how deep the croc is to look for it because you need to determine how much water you want to bypass. Either that, or the DM has to make the Psicraft check for you and tell you what you can sense based on how much water you could penetrate with the result. Note: If you elect to burrow through 20 feet of water and the croc was only 5 feet under then you will miss it because you skipped 20 feet of space.
forsaken1111 08-29-07, 03:14 PM	And if your DM did allow Burrowing Touchsight to modify the emanation then how are you going to handle the mechanics? To bypass a barrier you must make a Psicraft check with a DC of 10 + the hardness of the barrier (+20 for barriers without a hardness rating, but water is 0 because ice is 0) + 1 per foot of thickness. This means you must already know how deep the croc is to look for it because you need to determine how much water you want to bypass. Either that, or the DM has to make the Psicraft check for you and tell you what you can sense based on how much water you could penetrate with the result. Note: If you elect to burrow through 20 feet of water and the croc was only 5 feet under then you will miss it because you skipped 20 feet of space. That seems pretty simple.. you make the check and whatever you get indicates how far in you penetrate. If the croc happens to be there, you sense him. If he's deeper than you can penetrate, you don't.
CrimsonDeath 08-29-07, 03:56 PM	Based on this, the DM was correct in not allowing you to discern the croc while submerged. This isn't definitive, however, and one could argue that touchsight should fall under the domain of magical effects (although it affects you and not the croc). Also total cover prohibits attacks against the target, but you can still make attacks against the submerged creature, so there is a contradiction there as well. Personally, I have difficulty understanding how one could argue that Touchsight does not fall under the domain of magical effects. It targets you, but it affects everything within 60 feet.
AntiDjinn 08-29-07, 04:30 PM	That seems pretty simple.. you make the check and whatever you get indicates how far in you penetrate. If the croc happens to be there, you sense him. If he's deeper than you can penetrate, you don't. The feat causes the power to skip out to the astral plane for a while. When you use it to bypass a wall the wall is not part of the effect. If you use it to skip 20 feet of water you will (if the DM even allows the feat to work on the emanation rather than targeting) detect a target who is at 20 feet. Re-read the actual feat: When you skip 20 feet you skip 20 feet of space, you do not simply ignore a chosen barrier within that space (in other words: you are not simply ignoring a wall and passing through it, the power does not exist in the space in which it does not exist). You will not detect a target who was within the 20 feet you skipped. So you need to know exactly where the target is, or make a good guess. If you want something that bypasses distance and objects yet also targets within the bypassed area, then you need something else. What you would need to do what you are proposing is a feat that allows the effect of power to pass through a substance (as opposed to skipping a segment of space) without interacting with that substance. Then the power would ignore water (or earth, stone, whatever) and still connect with a target suspended within that substance.
forsaken1111 08-29-07, 04:37 PM	The feat causes the power to skip out to the astral plane for a while. When you use it to bypass a wall the wall is not part of the effect. If you use it to skip 20 feet of water you will (if the DM even allows the feat to work on the emanation rather than targeting) detect a target who is at 20 feet. Re-read the actual feat: When you skip 20 feet you skip 20 feet of space, you do not simply ignore a chosen barrier within that space (in other words: you are not simply ignoring a wall and passing through it, the power does not exist in the space in which it does not exist). You will not detect a target who was within the 20 feet you skipped. So you need to know exactly where the target is, or make a good guess. If you want something that bypasses distance and objects yet also targets within the bypassed area, then you need something else. I suppose we tend to run with oddball things in our game. If the DM thinks something is inventive and not broken, he will allow it. Applying the burrowing power feat to touchsight, while it may not be RAW compliant, is inventive and would likely be allowed. We tend to go with fun over strict rules lawyering, not that there's anything wrong with your approach. I know how the feat works, so there's no need for me to go reread it. In any case, its probably best to just disallow it altogether. However, why weren't these adventurers given any spot checks to notice ripples in the water, or nostrils/eyes coming up? Since when did crocs have blindsight? Are these special blind cave crocs bred by mindflayers?
CrimsonDeath 08-29-07, 05:29 PM	Burrowing Power + Transdimensional Power? (I know it requires two focuses...)
Racinante 08-29-07, 05:45 PM	Personally, I have difficulty understanding how one could argue that Touchsight does not fall under the domain of magical effects. It targets you, but it affects everything within 60 feet. Since the range is Personal, see text and the text defines the range as an emanation, I agree with you. If it merely altered your ability to perceive and did not act as an area affect power, I would be inclined to disagree. My point was that the DM had a basis for applying his ruling, even if we disagree with his conclusion.
Racinante 08-29-07, 05:48 PM	Burrowing Power + Transdimensional Power? (I know it requires two focuses...) I don't think so. TD Power allows you to affect creatures on connected planes. For example, with this combo, you would not be able to locate or hit the xorn buried in the earth, because he is not on another plane.
forsaken1111 08-29-07, 05:49 PM	I don't think so. TD Power allows you to affect creatures on connected planes. For example, with this combo, you would not be able to locate or hit the xorn buried in the earth, because he is not on another plane. The point was that since the burrowing power was astral for that distance, the croc WAS on another plane (material) thus it would see him.
sijigs 08-29-07, 05:50 PM	Thanks for the discussions dudes. Here's the scenario: The (category: huge) crocs were hiding under mucky gooish water layered with a heavy crust on the surface (don't ask what the crust is made of). Rats would run across it from time to time. Crocs had tremorsense and when we came within its threatened squares it simply came up and just attacked us. Sounds logical but he gave us Spot checks to not being flat-footed as they broke through the surface of the 'water'??
CrimsonDeath 08-29-07, 06:50 PM	In that case, Touchsight would, at the very least, allow you to auto-succeed on the Spot check.
sijigs 08-29-07, 07:08 PM	That's what I thought, too, but we have privately conceded that the DM likes to screw with us. But I'm just ranting because were 12th level PCs and struggling to get past the first 100 ft of that dungeon!!! And we don't think it's lack of prep!!!! :mad:
forsaken1111 08-29-07, 07:10 PM	That's what I thought, too, but we have privately conceded that the DM likes to screw with us. But I'm just ranting because were 12th level PCs and struggling to get past the first 100 ft of that dungeon!!! And we don't think it's lack of prep!!!! :mad: Okay I have to stop you there. Level 12 and noone can deal with a crocodile? At the risk of starting an off topic discussion (since your question has been answered anyway) what is your party's makeup?
Ryuoch 08-29-07, 07:25 PM	Okay I have to stop you there. Level 12 and noone can deal with a crocodile? Its was a Dire Crocodile...or a Titanic Crocodile ....a Dire Titanic Crocodile ...of Legend!!!
sijigs 08-29-07, 07:41 PM	No, we've dealt with the 2 crocs and 2 rust monsters.. but man it was a struggle! Huge croc has some serious grapple (understandably) but it was the fact that once one of us got dragged into the muck and no one could target it was the real kick in the nuts to that person (me and our swordsage). Im a 12th level Elan psychic theurge. Our swordsage got grabbed the first time around into the muck. Had to make a fort save or be sickened which he saved. I decided to Ego Whip it while they were thrashing around. End of first croc. So I activate touchsight and one of our PCs has mindsight. Neither which helped!!! :mad: 2nd croc - failed my spot so it grabbed me and I failed my save. DM says to me 'sorry the failed save actually meant nauseated' because my PC had swallowed all that muck. Meant I couldn't manifest. I lobbied if I could do immediate actions - Elan resistance to absorb damage and he said 'yes'. So he chewed on me for a few rounds until the DM rolled a % that somehow the fight reached the surface and then PCs who had held actions could blast the living crap out of it.
sijigs 08-29-07, 07:42 PM	Its was a Dire Crocodile...or a Titanic Crocodile ....a Dire Titanic Crocodile ...of Legend!!! Hahaha.. To be precise it was a category Huge Albino alligator/croc with tremorsense.
CrimsonDeath 08-29-07, 08:13 PM	Where did it get Tremorsense? (I'm guessing DM Fiat.) Antway, I assume you're Cleric or Archivist on the other side, so Air Walk can defeat Tremorsense, and Freedom of Movement can defeat grappling.
sijigs 08-29-07, 08:32 PM	Where did it get Tremorsense? (I'm guessing DM Fiat.) It met a bulette at the local sewer night spot - and you know how the rest of the story goes... :P Antway, I assume you're Cleric or Archivist on the other side, so Air Walk can defeat Tremorsense, and Freedom of Movement can defeat grappling. I am a Theurge so I can cast that spell but I manifested touchsight first. My bad, obviously.
AntiDjinn 08-29-07, 08:43 PM	The (category: huge) crocs were hiding under mucky gooish water layered with a heavy crust on the surface (don't ask what the crust is made of). Rats would run across it from time to time. If rats could actually run across it (and they didn't have Body Adjustment) then it is a solid surface. It grants cover. Though if you still want to quibble with the DM, why were rats scampering about in an area above a megapreditor? Presumably, the crocs must snack on rats from time to time (unless they are typical PC-ovore monsters who subsist entirely on adventurers and have neither dietary needs nor impact on the environment between parties). If the rats were simply too small to be worth the croc's effort then the arrival of the party should have sent them running for cover since that is the event that would normally trigger the beast's attack.
MnemonicSV 08-30-07, 04:09 AM	sijigs: This may sound a little odd, but were you standing in the water (wading) when you were using touchsight? Touchsight doesn't specify that any specific part of your body is acting as a sensory organ (even though "your head" is the typical erroneous assumption). Thus, any part of your body which has line of effect to the creature would be sufficient to detect it. Or at least that's how I'd rule. As such, if you were standing in the water at the time, and there were no other obstructions between your feet/legs and the creature, you would detect it. Much like sticking your finger around a corner to see what's there. Your whole person is the sensory organ, not just parts of you, or where "most of you" happens to be. If you could touch your foot to a rock under the surface to feel where it was, you could certainly use touchsight to detect those (titanic, dire) crocs (of legend). --- Even if a liquid's surface acts as a cover of sorts between one medium and another (I tend to say "yes" to that), nothing says it cannot work within a liquid if submerged. I can't think of a rationale that says a psionic merfolk for example couldn't use touchsight to equal effect underwater, beyond using pseudo-scientific explanations (which have no place in a fantasy setting anyway, IMO). Allowing touchsight to effectively "see" through liquids would make this power dangerous to the user, since all liquids would effectively be invisible. Nobody wants to accidentally stumble into a pool of acid. My personal interpretation of touchsight is that it works much like sight, but without colour or shades, and everything is opaque (translucent and transparent materials cannot be seen through). Surfaces of liquids block the effect, regardless of whether you are a submerged creature looking up, or a landed creature looking down. Don't go and flame me for this interpretation though; This is just an opinion.
CrimsonDeath 08-30-07, 04:13 AM	If rats could actually run across it (and they didn't have Body Adjustment) then it is a solid surface. I'm guessing you meant Body Equilibrium.
jtrowell 08-30-07, 11:31 AM	sijigs: [...] My personal interpretation of touchsight is that it works much like sight, but without colour or shades, and everything is opaque (translucent and transparent materials cannot be seen through). Surfaces of liquids block the effect, regardless of whether you are a submerged creature looking up, or a landed creature looking down. Don't go and flame me for this interpretation though; This is just an opinion. I had a very similar situation in my last game : kuo-toa drinking a potion of invisibility and jumping in a pool of water, with a psichic warrior manifesting touchsigth. I used the same interpretation as you : once submerged the player could "see" the invisible kuo-toa (but not before that), and no longer could see what happened above the surface
sijigs 08-30-07, 05:55 PM	This may sound a little odd, but were you standing in the water (wading) when you were using touchsight? No, sorry we were on a pathway on the side of the mucky water. I used the same interpretation as you : once submerged the player could "see" the invisible kuo-toa (but not before that), and no longer could see what happened above the surface I guess it's a good rule if you agree that water isn't penetrated by the telekinetic field.
CrimsonDeath 08-30-07, 08:50 PM	I had a very similar situation in my last game : kuo-toa drinking a potion of invisibility and jumping in a pool of water, with a psichic warrior manifesting touchsigth. In case it matters, invisibility apparently doesn't make you invisible. It just makes you transparent, with the same refractive index as air. I say this because it's been stated that a subject of invisibility merely has 20% concealment underwater, since he appears as a him-shaped bubble. (Presumably, aquatic races have developed an underwater invisibility spell, which makes you transparent and gives you the refractive index of water, so that you'll be invisible underwater and on land will appear to be a you-shaped glob of water.) Please don't ask for book-and-page reference, because I don't really know. It's probably in the DMG and/or Stormwrack.