Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanuman47 07-20-07, 11:32 AM	Wild Surge (Su) A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below). A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on). She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time. At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six. In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve. I have read several times on this forum that a multiclassed wilder can use the wild surge ability with powers gained from another psionic class. My question is, is there an official source that confirms this? I can see how the non-specific reference to "a power" might be interpreted that way, but it seems like it would have been spelled out if wild surge had been meant to work that way. Considering that it was also "common knowledge" that wild surge can be used to pay a portion of manifesting cost when not "pushing" past normal manifester level (it can't), I'm somewhat skeptical of this interpretation.
Fafnir 07-20-07, 12:19 PM	I have read several times on this forum that a multiclassed wilder can use the wild surge ability with powers gained from another psionic class. My question is, is there an official source that confirms this? I can see how the non-specific reference to "a power" might be interpreted that way, but it seems like it would have been spelled out if wild surge had been meant to work that way. Considering that it was also "common knowledge" that wild surge can be used to pay a portion of manifesting cost when not "pushing" past normal manifester level (it can't), I'm somewhat skeptical of this interpretation. Actually, it can do both things. Yes, I saw the previous thread on the subject. The rules explicitly place very tight limiters when they want to disallow such a thing. There are no limits there, such as "A wilder can apply a wild surge only to powers he has learned from as a wilder" or "A wilder can apply a surge only to fully augmented powers". Thus "common knowledge" is right. That's pretty much the reason why it's common.
Hanuman47 07-20-07, 01:32 PM	I'm sorry, but in the second case you are just wrong. Here's the reply I got from customer service about it: Subject --------------------------------------------------------------- Need Help Understanding Wild Surge class ability. Discussion Thread --------------------------------------------------------------- Response (Support Agent) - 07/18/2007 07:48 AM The Wild Surge only pays for the augmentation that is added when the manifester level is increased. You would pay 3pp and then the Wild Surge would take care of the 2pp to aug to 5th level value. If you only do 3d6 in this manner, you would still have to pay the 3pp as you are not augmenting it above your level. Good Gaming! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast You might have an argument if the ability was phrased something like "wild surge provides power points towards augmentation equal to the amount you boost your manifester level." But it doesn't say that. It says that it "effectively pays" for the extra augmentation. I.e., it's not providing power points per se, but prevents you from having to pay the extra power points it would cost to augment a power beyond your normal level. But I don't want to argue about that. I have an official ruling and it makes perfect sense to me with the rules as written. What I am trying to find is OFFICIAL documentation that wild surge can be used for non-wilder powers. I don't find "the rules don't say they can't" convincing - unless you can point me to a place in the rules that says that all things not specifically prohibited are allowed. Sorry if I'm coming off as rude. I appreciate people weighing in with their opinions, but opinions and fact are sometimes two very different things. I'm looking for solid, documented fact.
Despana 07-20-07, 01:45 PM	You're actually trusting Customer Service to give you a correct answer on something to do with psionics?:eek: Anywho, I have a question. Say we have a 5th level wilder who loves her energy ray power. How is it different if she uses wild surge to do 7d6+7 for 5 power points and a ML of 7 or if she uses the same surge to do 3d6+3 for 1 power point with a ML of 7? Also, I'd avoid nitpicking wild surge. A very literal reading of it indicates that a 20th level wilder could do 26d6+26 for 1 power point, despite that being very far from the intent. In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.
Hanuman47 07-20-07, 01:59 PM	So you're saying that employees of Wizards of the Coast are a less reliable source of information than any random person posting on the boards? I'm not denigrating the knowledge of posters here, but consider this: if you're tryng to convince your DM about an interpretation of a rule, which is a more convincing source to cite? A representative of the company that creates the game or "some guy on the internet?" Anyway, I'm not nitpicking the wild surge - I'm just trying to figure out the correct way to use it. The difference between the two scenarios you present is one is the way the rules say it works and one isn't.
rilem 07-20-07, 02:08 PM	You've got the book in your hands. That's pretty official. I understand your desire to make sure every little action you take has been vetted, double-checked and deemed kosher by the powers that be. But it's not going to happen. Nobody can foresee every rules question that's going to come up, and in very many instances, I suspect the rulesmakers don't know the answer either. Regarding your custserv response: CustServ is known to contradict itself, especially when presented with unclear topics or convoluted questions (and, I'm sorry, but I really didn't think your questions in that other thread were very clear). So don't expect to win a lot of converts with that. Rather than ask if some guy with a WotC e-mail address once opined on this topic, a better set of questions would be: "Does this rule interpretation seem fair? Is it problematic? Is it fun?" You'll get better answers and probably have a more enjoyable game. So you're saying that employees of Wizards of the Coast are a less reliable source of information than any random person posting on the boards? Sometimes.
Hanuman47 07-20-07, 03:09 PM	OK, good points. I'll back down from my hard-line stance and reiterate the question as "Why do people believe the wild surge ability can be used with non-wilder powers?" It's not intuitive to me to interpret it one way or the other. Let me add that I have no problem interpreting it that way (would work well with a character I'm working on), I'd just like to know how people reach that conclusion.
AntiDjinn 07-20-07, 03:31 PM	Regarding the reliability of any company's customer tech support: The fact that their paychecks are signed by the company does not make them authorities on the company's products (although they might well be, and presumably they are trained). When you have Windows problems and contact Microsoft tech support you are not talking to one of the programmers who created Vista. You are talking to a techie who has copies of the manuals and a database of frequently asked questions. If your question is unique, then your cust support rep will do the best he can. If your question comes up many times then it will be added to the company FAQ (which is why the first people to come up with an oddball question get a different answer, or many different answers from different reps, than the 1000th to ask). Similarly, if you e-mail an Eberron question you are not going to be getting a response from Keith Baker. In a best case scenario, there is communication between the developers and customer service at a given company. If the cust serve reps report a certain item seems to confuse everyone, hopefully the development team will issue a clarification or fix the problem in a future edition. In other cases the customer service center is outsourced and is a distant black box to which hapless customers are sent. In no case does a response from customer service become cannon simply because it came from a company representative. It might well be official, in which case the source of the clarification should be cited, but it does not become an official rule just because a representative fired it off in an e-mail.
Jhaelen 07-20-07, 03:37 PM	Actually, it can do both things. Yes, I saw the previous thread on the subject. The rules explicitly place very tight limiters when they want to disallow such a thing. There are no limits there, such as "A wilder can apply a wild surge only to powers he has learned from as a wilder" or "A wilder can apply a surge only to fully augmented powers". Thus "common knowledge" is right. That's pretty much the reason why it's common.Actually, I am with hanuman47, here. For me (and all of the 8 players in my group, including the wilder player), it's obvious that a wilder cannot use wild surge to pay for part of the power's base cost. That's not 'common knowledge', it's common sense. The matter of using wild surge on powers gained from other classes is less clear. I'd definitely like to see a well-founded argumentation for that. I don't consider it overpowered since the manifester levels are separate, so I'd probably allow it if it came up in my game. But there is little evidence either way.
Antendren 07-20-07, 03:49 PM	it's obvious that a wilder cannot use wild surge to pay for part of the power's base cost.No one's claiming this. This is obvious to the majority of people. What's in contention is wild surge paying for augmentation when you don't augment to your maximum ability.
Hanuman47 07-20-07, 03:55 PM	For what it's worth, here's what the WotC customer service guy said regarding my second question: Subject --------------------------------------------------------------- Need Help Understanding Wild Surge class ability. Discussion Thread --------------------------------------------------------------- Response (Support Agent) - 07/20/2007 12:16 PM Since the entry for Wild Surge states that a Wilder can use Wild Surge any time he/she manifests a power, and does not specify that it must be a power earned from the wilder class, then yes a Wilder can do this. Good Gaming! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast What are other peoples' thoughts? And yes, I am now having crow for lunch after dismissing Despana's argument.
rilem 07-20-07, 04:19 PM	It's hard to imagine a situation where it's a problem. Scenario one: Wilder-heavy build that dips into Psion for a couple augmentable powers: (i.e., Wilder11/Psion1, using Wild Surge +4 on Crystal Shard, which was grabbed with a psion power). Ok, it's a +5d6 damage with 1 PP spent. Or you could have used your Wilder power to deal 15d6. Plus, that psion level you took means you can't take Disintegrate until next level. (A more likely use of this trick would be to grab augmentable utility powers like Ecto Protection, Far Hand and Attraction — but none of these carry a bonus worth a 20 percent risk of enervation). Scenario one: Psion build that dips into Wilder for the Surge. Even less overpowered, as Anarchic Initiate would be much better.
Jhaelen 07-21-07, 04:50 PM	No one's claiming this. This is obvious to the majority of people. What's in contention is wild surge paying for augmentation when you don't augment to your maximum ability. Ah, alright, I misinterpreted this. We've always played it the way that you can use it for any kind of augmentation. It isn't required to augment it past your manifester level. But I can see how one might argue otherwise.