Anticipatory strike and avoiding crits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anticipatory strike and avoiding crits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psikerlord
05-21-07, 06:57 AM Can you use anticipatory strike to avoid a critical hit? Suppose my psion is attacked by a hill giant - DM rolls a 20 (ack!), followed by a successful critical confirmation. The DM picks up a handful of dice to splat my psion across the battlefield... Am I able to interrupt this critical hit via an immediate acton, manifesting Anticipatory Strike? (& bring forward my next action and escape the crit attack via dimension door, or some other movement power?) If you can use an immediate action Damp Power to minimise a targeted energy ray (which has already rolled a successful touch attack), I assume anticipatory strike can also be used in this way? Cheers in advance for any comments.
GraphiteGolem
05-21-07, 11:26 AM I'd say no as the power doesn't say that you get to take your action in response to another's action (I don't think), just that you can change your initiative count. As far as I understand it, you would have to manifest it *before* you get splatted.

Why don't you just use Evade Attack? :confused:
Tempest Stormwind
05-21-07, 12:17 PM I'd say no as the power doesn't say that you get to take your action in response to another's action (I don't think), just that you can change your initiative count. As far as I understand it, you would have to manifest it *before* you get splatted.

Why don't you just use Evade Attack? :confused:

It's an immediate-action power. You can therefore use it in response to another action.

It also doesn't change your initiative count; that was removed during the update to CPsi. (One of the few nerfs that *was* needed; with that augment and Synchronicity, you could totally turnjack someone, effectively making them unable to take any turn whatsoever with no save or chance of retaliation.)

That said, you're right, but for the wrong reasons. Here's the breakdown.

Init 15: You act normally.
Init 12: Creature B, not mentioned but with a higher Dexterity than the giant, acts. Since the giant is on the same initiative, he'll act *after* B does in the turn order.
Init 12: Giant attacks you. You use Anticipatory Strike. Since the giant is acting and you now have the same initiative (temporarily), you'll need to wait until after the giant finishes his turn before acting.
Init 12 (still): You now act. You skip your next turn (the next Init 15) and on subsequent rounds continue to act on init 15.
Racinante
05-21-07, 03:07 PM Can you use anticipatory strike to avoid a critical hit? Suppose my psion is attacked by a hill giant - DM rolls a 20 (ack!), followed by a successful critical confirmation. The DM picks up a handful of dice to splat my psion across the battlefield... Am I able to interrupt this critical hit via an immediate acton, manifesting Anticipatory Strike?

No. At the point where you know you've been critted, it is too late to use the benefits of anticipatory strike.

You could use it prior to the attack being made. I.e., the DM states that the hill giant is going to swing at you, then you say "Hold on one moment, I want to use the A.S. to manifest the power ( or move ) to avoid the attack."

But once the result of the attack is known, it is too late to avoid with A.S.
Psikerlord
05-21-07, 04:52 PM If those breakdowns are correct though... how does damp power work, or evade attack, for that matter? Wouldn't they be subject to the same difficulties? Graphite Golem - I would use evade attack - except that it costs me a feat to get! (I play a telepath)
Tempest Stormwind
05-21-07, 04:58 PM If those breakdowns are correct though... how does damp power work, or evade attack, for that matter? Wouldn't they be subject to the same difficulties? Graphite Golem - I would use evade attack - except that it costs me a feat to get! (I play a telepath)

Nonono... AS only works the way it does due to initiative.

Damp Power and Evade Attack can be used in response to an attack (literally at any point subject to the power's description). You realize you're about to be fireballed, you use Damp Power, it's minimized. You could NOT use it in response to the save, since technically the save happens after the damage is rolled and you can't minimize what's already out there (the spell's already hit you; Damp Power works on the NEXT one to hit you).

And of COURSE it costs a telepath a feat -- you shouldn't be in melee anyway!
AntiDjinn
05-21-07, 06:15 PM Also note that while Anticipatory Strike is an immediate action to manifest, it does not cause whatever action to take out of turn to become immediate, swift, free, or anything other than it would normally be. It allows you to insert your action into a different point of the inititiate count at the cost of your swift action from the next round (or this round if you manifest as a swift rather than immediate action). The action is then resolved normally, and you don't act the following round.

As for Damp Power and Evade Burst, they are also immediate so you can manifest them in response to situations where they might prove useful, but they don't retro-actively negate damage. For example, you can wait to find out if a mage rolls pathetically for his Fireball damage before deciding if you want to invest the points. If the Fireball racing towards you turns out to be an illusion the decision whether or not to Damp it or Evade it or just take it has already been made by the time you find this out.
Psikerlord
05-21-07, 11:32 PM Yep, thanks guys, I understand now. DP and EA are complete immediate actions all by themselves, while AS ultimately only gives you an ordinary standard action (which can't interrupt NPC actions like an immediate action can). So I can't use AS in the way I hoped.... I'll either have to take the feat for EA, or stay away from melee altogether (always a preference, frankly!). Cheers all
Slagger the Chuul
05-22-07, 12:00 AM So I can't use AS in the way I hoped.... I'll either have to take the feat for EA, or stay away from melee altogether (always a preference, frankly!). Cheers all

Distance is the thickest armour. :)
Wizard Random
05-22-07, 08:34 PM It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG.
Tempest Stormwind
05-22-07, 08:54 PM It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG.

That would be right if and only if Anticipatory Strike actually gave you actions, a la Temporal Acceleration.

It doesn't.

It adjusts your initiative (temporarily).

Thus, you are bound by the initiative rules: even if you have the same initiative as someone else, you take your turn either before or after them (based on your Dexterity, or whether you are acting on this initiative due to a readied action or delaying).

In this case, you use it and it's essentially the same as a delay: You act after they're done but on the same initiative count. When your next "real" turn would have come up, you skip it. You act again on your original initiative the turn after.
AntiDjinn
05-22-07, 11:42 PM It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG.

Yes, Anticipatory Strike is an immediate action and it is resolved in that manner. But only AS itself is immediate, it does not say anywhere that it causes the standard and move action to be resolved in any way other than normally. The ability to move your next action forward in time and begin to act out of your normal turn is the 5th level power, everything you do as a result is still resolved as per the normal action rules.

So if a power used as a standard action at that point in time would prevent a given even from happening then it will work, if not, then not.
Racinante
05-23-07, 09:35 AM It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG.

Suppose you interrupt the attack. You either go before the attack or after the attack. There are no actions to interrupt between those two points. Before the attack, you do not know if you have been hit. After the attack, you have all ready taken damage.

With AS and the appropriate action, you could avoid the attack, but if you do not, then you cannot avoid the critical. The critical is not a separate action from the attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psikerlord 05-21-07, 06:57 AM	Can you use anticipatory strike to avoid a critical hit? Suppose my psion is attacked by a hill giant - DM rolls a 20 (ack!), followed by a successful critical confirmation. The DM picks up a handful of dice to splat my psion across the battlefield... Am I able to interrupt this critical hit via an immediate acton, manifesting Anticipatory Strike? (& bring forward my next action and escape the crit attack via dimension door, or some other movement power?) If you can use an immediate action Damp Power to minimise a targeted energy ray (which has already rolled a successful touch attack), I assume anticipatory strike can also be used in this way? Cheers in advance for any comments.
GraphiteGolem 05-21-07, 11:26 AM	I'd say no as the power doesn't say that you get to take your action in response to another's action (I don't think), just that you can change your initiative count. As far as I understand it, you would have to manifest it before you get splatted. Why don't you just use Evade Attack? :confused:
Tempest Stormwind 05-21-07, 12:17 PM	I'd say no as the power doesn't say that you get to take your action in response to another's action (I don't think), just that you can change your initiative count. As far as I understand it, you would have to manifest it before you get splatted. Why don't you just use Evade Attack? :confused: It's an immediate-action power. You can therefore use it in response to another action. It also doesn't change your initiative count; that was removed during the update to CPsi. (One of the few nerfs that was needed; with that augment and Synchronicity, you could totally turnjack someone, effectively making them unable to take any turn whatsoever with no save or chance of retaliation.) That said, you're right, but for the wrong reasons. Here's the breakdown. Init 15: You act normally. Init 12: Creature B, not mentioned but with a higher Dexterity than the giant, acts. Since the giant is on the same initiative, he'll act after B does in the turn order. Init 12: Giant attacks you. You use Anticipatory Strike. Since the giant is acting and you now have the same initiative (temporarily), you'll need to wait until after the giant finishes his turn before acting. Init 12 (still): You now act. You skip your next turn (the next Init 15) and on subsequent rounds continue to act on init 15.
Racinante 05-21-07, 03:07 PM	Can you use anticipatory strike to avoid a critical hit? Suppose my psion is attacked by a hill giant - DM rolls a 20 (ack!), followed by a successful critical confirmation. The DM picks up a handful of dice to splat my psion across the battlefield... Am I able to interrupt this critical hit via an immediate acton, manifesting Anticipatory Strike? No. At the point where you know you've been critted, it is too late to use the benefits of anticipatory strike. You could use it prior to the attack being made. I.e., the DM states that the hill giant is going to swing at you, then you say "Hold on one moment, I want to use the A.S. to manifest the power ( or move ) to avoid the attack." But once the result of the attack is known, it is too late to avoid with A.S.
Psikerlord 05-21-07, 04:52 PM	If those breakdowns are correct though... how does damp power work, or evade attack, for that matter? Wouldn't they be subject to the same difficulties? Graphite Golem - I would use evade attack - except that it costs me a feat to get! (I play a telepath)
Tempest Stormwind 05-21-07, 04:58 PM	If those breakdowns are correct though... how does damp power work, or evade attack, for that matter? Wouldn't they be subject to the same difficulties? Graphite Golem - I would use evade attack - except that it costs me a feat to get! (I play a telepath) Nonono... AS only works the way it does due to initiative. Damp Power and Evade Attack can be used in response to an attack (literally at any point subject to the power's description). You realize you're about to be fireballed, you use Damp Power, it's minimized. You could NOT use it in response to the save, since technically the save happens after the damage is rolled and you can't minimize what's already out there (the spell's already hit you; Damp Power works on the NEXT one to hit you). And of COURSE it costs a telepath a feat -- you shouldn't be in melee anyway!
AntiDjinn 05-21-07, 06:15 PM	Also note that while Anticipatory Strike is an immediate action to manifest, it does not cause whatever action to take out of turn to become immediate, swift, free, or anything other than it would normally be. It allows you to insert your action into a different point of the inititiate count at the cost of your swift action from the next round (or this round if you manifest as a swift rather than immediate action). The action is then resolved normally, and you don't act the following round. As for Damp Power and Evade Burst, they are also immediate so you can manifest them in response to situations where they might prove useful, but they don't retro-actively negate damage. For example, you can wait to find out if a mage rolls pathetically for his Fireball damage before deciding if you want to invest the points. If the Fireball racing towards you turns out to be an illusion the decision whether or not to Damp it or Evade it or just take it has already been made by the time you find this out.
Psikerlord 05-21-07, 11:32 PM	Yep, thanks guys, I understand now. DP and EA are complete immediate actions all by themselves, while AS ultimately only gives you an ordinary standard action (which can't interrupt NPC actions like an immediate action can). So I can't use AS in the way I hoped.... I'll either have to take the feat for EA, or stay away from melee altogether (always a preference, frankly!). Cheers all
Slagger the Chuul 05-22-07, 12:00 AM	So I can't use AS in the way I hoped.... I'll either have to take the feat for EA, or stay away from melee altogether (always a preference, frankly!). Cheers all Distance is the thickest armour. :)
Wizard Random 05-22-07, 08:34 PM	It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG.
Tempest Stormwind 05-22-07, 08:54 PM	It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG. That would be right if and only if Anticipatory Strike actually gave you actions, a la Temporal Acceleration. It doesn't. It adjusts your initiative (temporarily). Thus, you are bound by the initiative rules: even if you have the same initiative as someone else, you take your turn either before or after them (based on your Dexterity, or whether you are acting on this initiative due to a readied action or delaying). In this case, you use it and it's essentially the same as a delay: You act after they're done but on the same initiative count. When your next "real" turn would have come up, you skip it. You act again on your original initiative the turn after.
AntiDjinn 05-22-07, 11:42 PM	It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG. Yes, Anticipatory Strike is an immediate action and it is resolved in that manner. But only AS itself is immediate, it does not say anywhere that it causes the standard and move action to be resolved in any way other than normally. The ability to move your next action forward in time and begin to act out of your normal turn is the 5th level power, everything you do as a result is still resolved as per the normal action rules. So if a power used as a standard action at that point in time would prevent a given even from happening then it will work, if not, then not.
Racinante 05-23-07, 09:35 AM	It was my understanding that a immediate action interrupts whatever caused it to trigger.The imemeiate action is taken (no matter what type of action it is) and THEN the other action can continue to reslove. If he uses AS after the giant has critted him and then teleport away he should avoid the hit. In this case its kinda like Counter spelling another card in MTG. Suppose you interrupt the attack. You either go before the attack or after the attack. There are no actions to interrupt between those two points. Before the attack, you do not know if you have been hit. After the attack, you have all ready taken damage. With AS and the appropriate action, you could avoid the attack, but if you do not, then you cannot avoid the critical. The critical is not a separate action from the attack.