Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Firstborn76 01-30-08, 10:24 AM	I have read that the official WOTC Complete Psionics Handbooks is in many ways a turd. Are there any good alternatives from third party publishers? Thanks
The_Mess 01-30-08, 11:34 AM	I love absolutely everything from Dreamscarred press and they did not pay me to say this. They've published a number of supplements, including Untapped Potential, which is everything Complete Psionics should have been, the Races of the Mind series expanding on the SRD and OGL races (acronym-addiction: Know the signs), and the High Psionics line covering just about everything else. They're currently in the middle of publishing a series of supplements designed to link psions with dream mythology. Malhavoc Press has put out four psionics supplements, all of which are at least good, by Bruce Cordell, author of the XPH. Those are the only ones I have direct experience with. You might check out Index: 3.5 Psionics Outside the XPH (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=544215).
Bacris 01-30-08, 11:48 AM	I should point out Malhavoc's early releases (Mindscapes, Beasts of the Id, and If Thoughts Could Kill) were actually 3.0 psionics. While they did have a 3.5 revision, much of the material in them was updated and put into Hyperconscious: Explorations in Psionics, which is the book of theirs that I would recommend. :)
jbsaff 01-30-08, 02:35 PM	Dreamscarred Press definitely. You pretty much can't go wrong. Personal order of preference: 1) Untapped Potential. The release that started it all. Lots of stuff in one place, with something for everyone. Includes a ruling on psicrystal death, "fixes" the wilder and the soulknife, and provides a psionic support class that's a lot of fun to play (Society Mind). With this book, you can make an all-psionic party a reality, esp. if you give the SocMind Body Adjustment as a 2nd level power (just my 2 pp). 2) High Psionics Compilation 1: This is a compilation of 8 different smaller releases, ranging from psicrystals to new feats (and feat types) to psionic countermeasures and diseases. Again, it's a "something for everyone" package. Soulknives get even more love, and there are psionic items and critters to tickle your fancy. This book is strong in the "bang for your buck" department. 3) At this point, we start getting to the releases that will help fit your play style. I like the Mind Unveiled subscription for this spot. Lots of flavor for fitting psionics as "dream-magic". I really like the Morphean as the cross between the psychic rogue from Mind's Eye (WotC website) and the lurk. I'm looking forward to the rest of the line. 4) The Mind Divine expands on the concept of a god-mind and gives psionics a few tricks for dealing with the undead. It also provides some additional ideas and tools for running a world without the divine. 5) Everything else. Want a full BAB manifesting archer? Untapped Classes: Marksman has the base class and all of the supporting material (PrCs, items, etc...). The Phrenic Creations line has some interesting materials and concepts that could open up new playstyles for you or your players. Do you focus on how your races interact with with world and each other? Want more stuff for your favorite OGL race? Grab the appropriate Races of the Mind release. I can't wait for the Dreamscarred, personally, but they have Elan, Meanad, and Half-Giant up now. Hope that helps! I'll be happy to answer any questions about how it plays, since my group has a standing rule of "anything Dreamscarred Press is allowed". It's been great!
Amaril 01-30-08, 03:40 PM	Don't discount Complete Psionic entirely. It has some good material in there, though the cover price and page count is hard to justify, especially with its flaws. As for third-party supplements, I recommend the following in order of preference. Hyperconscious, which contains revised (3.0 to v3.5) Malhavoc Press psionic material as well as new material, including an adventure. Untapped Potential, a supplement written by forum members to fill the gap that was left by Complete Psionic; this book expands on elements that are also found in Hyperconscious. High Psionics, a compilation of the 8 High Psionics supplements published by Dreamscarred Press to date. As an aside, I noticed something rather odd about individuals' complaints about Complete Psionic. Despite the fact that the book was written by Bruce Cordell, I still see posters praising his work in general. It seems as though no one wants to criticize his work in Complete Psionic directly, but rather blame WotC as a company for its content quality. Any unclear rules or wrongful errata should technically be the fault of the author. After all, Bruce is one who advocates the errata for astral construct.
The_Mess 01-30-08, 04:49 PM	I thought the rumor was other people finished (or, rather, didn't finish) Bruce's work on Complete Psionic. In any event, nobody is perfect.
Bacris 01-30-08, 04:51 PM	Bruce also wrote the 3.0 Psionics handbook :P He's had about a .333 average
jbsaff 01-30-08, 05:50 PM	Bruce also wrote the 3.0 Psionics handbook :P He's had about a .333 average Hey, that's Hall of Fame material right!
Tempest Stormwind 01-31-08, 05:59 PM	As an aside, I noticed something rather odd about individuals' complaints about Complete Psionic. Despite the fact that the book was written by Bruce Cordell, I still see posters praising his work in general. It seems as though no one wants to criticize his work in Complete Psionic directly, but rather blame WotC as a company for its content quality. Any unclear rules or wrongful errata should technically be the fault of the author. After all, Bruce is one who advocates the errata for astral construct. The joke is that roughly 1/8 of the authors of the book were Bruce Cordell, and roughly 1/8 of the book is usable. Note Cordell's true psi-history, though: 3e Psi HB: Some good ideas but mostly mechanical flaws. If Thoughts Could Kill: Introduces secondary disciplines, which addresses the MAD issue (its holes could be considered subsets of the holes in Polymorph, though.). Mindscapes: Introduces Mindscapes psionic combat, replacing the **** that was 3e Psi combat. (Note that this predated Resculpt Mind and Mind Blind.) Expanded Psionics Handbook: You know this one. Hyperconscious: Update to Mindscapes/ITCK material plus more goodies, generally high-quality although has a few inheritance problems from 3e updates (i.e. a few references to power point reserves). Complete Psionic: See above. I'd say that's generally positive, with a few glaring dark holes of Fail -- enough to get a generally positive review.
Amaril 01-31-08, 06:03 PM	He also did Planar Handbook and Weapons of Legacy.
InkBlot 01-31-08, 06:33 PM	Note Cordell's true psi-history, though: Bruce Cordell also wrote the Illithiad, the definitive book on mind-flayers. The Illithiad firmly established the history of the illithids and the rules of their biology, which Complete Psionics then flagrantly contradicted.
Tempest Stormwind 02-01-08, 01:51 PM	He also did Planar Handbook and Weapons of Legacy. The former we don't know what part he played (it was also written by Kestrel) and it was contaminated by the blight that is Planescape cruft. The latter actually had interesting mechanics, but it isn't worth the hassle unless legacy weapons are central to a game.
Deekin 02-01-08, 02:40 PM	The former we don't know what part he played (it was also written by Kestrel) and it was contaminated by the blight that is Planescape cruft. The latter actually had interesting mechanics, but it isn't worth the hassle unless legacy weapons are central to a game. Tempest, your hate of planescape puzzles and confuses me.
Amaril 02-01-08, 03:02 PM	The former we don't know what part he played (it was also written by Kestrel) and it was contaminated by the blight that is Planescape cruft. The latter actually had interesting mechanics, but it isn't worth the hassle unless legacy weapons are central to a game. I actually like the latter a lot. I just think the presentation was poorly written and overly complicated. I also think there could have been a better set of guidelines for spell-like abilities of legacy items.
Jaid 02-01-08, 07:19 PM	Tempest, your hate of planescape puzzles and confuses me. he had a really bad DM who brought in the lady of pain every 5 minutes as a plothammer i think =P (at least parts of that statement are partially true, btw) =P he has since been scarred for life ;)
TheKeyofE 02-01-08, 07:47 PM	He just needs to play Torment (assuming he likes CRPGs at all). PS:T is what led to my love of Planescape.
Tempest Stormwind 02-01-08, 08:59 PM	Jaid: No, not quite. It may be more accurate to say that I have never had a Planescape DM that didn't treat the players and their characters like ****. Not to mention I liked having at least internal consistency of the game world not depend entirely on the whim of the DM. Why isn't Eberron in Spelljammer? From first principles of that setting, because it hasn't been discovered yet (Wildspace is dangerous, and it could be very remote). Why isn't it in Planescape? Because the doors, which go everywhere, don't go there. Odd, that. (Just for example.) Not to mention I have actually been nearly lynched by Planescape PLAYERS by suggesting any combination of: 1) Challenging the Lady of Pain's DM's absolute railroading authority (Yes, the players were masochists conditioned to accept "because the Lady says so" as justification for anything.) 2) Thinking the setting was diverse enough to actually accomodate something that didn't already sit in established Planescape canon (yes, these players were worse for canon violations than Star Wars fans. One almost had an aneurysm when he saw that the Lady of Pain had been given an official stat ("Lawful Neutral female, unknown race").) 3) That the Factions, like Alignment, weren't absolutely perfect. (I almost completely derailed a game by choosing to side with NO faction. The DM had considered every single combination of factions that the party could have joined (!!), but didn't even consider not joining one at all.) Oh, and the example I always give of arriving in Sigil? About waking up one morning and leaving your room only to wind up not in your hallway but in a street, mysteriously devoid of pants (your belt buckle was part of a key), and with no key whatsoever anywhere in the multiverse to go home, surrounded by characters who literally did nothing but be openly racist to you for not being a planar, berk? Yeah, that was my first exposure to the city -- and the character at the time was designed (mechanically and RP-wise) to be a noble in the original campaign world, in the same way a Dragonmark Heir might be in Eberron. And it only went downhill from there, across multiple DMs. I have never met any Planescape DM or player face to face that didn't fit this caricature, even those who claim to be using Torment as their model. Speaking of: He just needs to play Torment (assuming he likes CRPGs at all). PS:T is what led to my love of Planescape. Torment's a special case, in the same way that Baldur's Gate reflects better on Bioware than it does for the Should-Be-Forgotten Realms. It would have been awesome no matter where it was set up -- and it probably could have been MORE awesome if they'd written their own setting for it.
Eldritch_Lord 02-01-08, 09:28 PM	Ooh, some DMs have been really ****ing with Planescape. Tempest, I hope you don't hate Planescape as a whole, just your DMs' versions of it; "love the sinner, hate the sin" and all that jazz. When I don't make my own worlds (not often, I'll admit), I tend to use Planescape, as it was the first setting I ever played in. The other DMs I've known to do Planescape used it well, and I haven't seen anything like the horror stories you have. My responses to each point: Not to mention I liked having at least internal consistency of the game world not depend entirely on the whim of the DM. Why isn't Eberron in Spelljammer? From first principles of that setting, because it hasn't been discovered yet (Wildspace is dangerous, and it could be very remote). Why isn't it in Planescape? Because the doors, which go everywhere, don't go there. Odd, that. (Just for example.) Well, that's easy to fix: My Sigil does lead to Eberron, FR, Dark Sun, my own world(s), and others. It's the doorway to everywhere, after all. Not to mention I have actually been nearly lynched by Planescape PLAYERS by suggesting any combination of: 1) Challenging the Lady of Pain's DM's absolute railroading authority (Yes, the players were masochists conditioned to accept "because the Lady says so" as justification for anything.) I've used the LoP only once in-game, and only as a deus ex machina after a bunch of reeeeally stupid player decisions resulted in 3 back-to-back TPKs. I have seen a few DMs overuse the LoP, but it seems to be the exception, not the norm. 2) Thinking the setting was diverse enough to actually accomodate something that didn't already sit in established Planescape canon (yes, these players were worse for canon violations than Star Wars fans. One almost had an aneurysm when he saw that the Lady of Pain had been given an official stat ("Lawful Neutral female, unknown race").) Hey! :ahem: We Star Wars fans aren't bad for canon violations! Trekkies are bad for canon violations; Star Wars fans are absolutely horribly awful for canon violations! Anyway, like I said I always include Eberron, FR, and other settings as well as plenty of newer stuff in my Planescape games. 3) That the Factions, like Alignment, weren't absolutely perfect. (I almost completely derailed a game by choosing to side with NO faction. The DM had considered every single combination of factions that the party could have joined (!!), but didn't even consider not joining one at all.) Well, I make up my own factions occasionally (okay, only very very occasionally, but still...) so that's my view on that. To be fair, though, not aligning yourself with a faction is like being an atheist in a party of clerics. Oh, and the example I always give of arriving in Sigil? About waking up one morning and leaving your room only to wind up not in your hallway but in a street, mysteriously devoid of pants (your belt buckle was part of a key), and with no key whatsoever anywhere in the multiverse to go home, surrounded by characters who literally did nothing but be openly racist to you for not being a planar, berk? Yeah, that was my first exposure to the city -- and the character at the time was designed (mechanically and RP-wise) to be a noble in the original campaign world, in the same way a Dragonmark Heir might be in Eberron. :OMG! I...have no response to that. :nonono: And it only went downhill from there, across multiple DMs. I have never met any Planescape DM or player face to face that didn't fit this caricature, even those who claim to be using Torment as their model. Well, I hate to see that a few lot of DMs have ruined Planescape for you. I hope you realize that that was those DMs and their (horribly misguided) views of Planescape and that you don't hold it against future Planescape DMs; one day, I'm sure, you'll find a good Planescape DM. Speaking of: Torment's a special case, in the same way that Baldur's Gate reflects better on Bioware than it does for the Should-Be-Forgotten Realms. It would have been awesome no matter where it was set up -- and it probably could have been MORE awesome if they'd written their own setting for it. Agreed, agreed, and agreed. ---------------------------- Back on topic: Yeah, +1 for Dreamscarred Press and Monte; I can't think of anything else at the moment.
Tempest Stormwind 02-01-08, 10:35 PM	Ooh, some DMs have been really ****ing with Planescape. Tempest, I hope you don't hate Planescape as a whole, just your DMs' versions of it; "love the sinner, hate the sin" and all that jazz. I find it particularly amusing that in your own Planescape games, you houserule away some canon: Connecting to Eberron and Athas (the latter explicitly doesn't connect anywhere; the Spelljammer reason was its crystal sphere couldn't be opened by any known magic, the Planescape reasoning was... No idea, they just didn't think about it), making up your own factions, and so on. Doesn't this change it to "hate the sin, love the saint"? ;) (On a side note, not aligning with a faction should be more like being a cleric of no god in a party of clerics with gods. The game doesn't penalize you for choosing your own destiny. Nor does it penalize you for being an atheist. Now, try playing a factionless character in Planescape, and see how long you last before being forced -- nay, railroaded -- into joining one, even if you disagree with all of them. Yes, even the Bleakers (which is a logically impossible position in any setting with divine magic and, more importantly, an empirical afterlife, but logic never stopped anything in Sigil), Free League, and Revolutionary League (the latter two are also logically impossible: if you're opposed to organization, why join an organization?).) Well, I hate to see that a few lot of DMs have ruined Planescape for you. I hope you realize that that was those DMs and their (horribly misguided) views of Planescape and that you don't hold it against future Planescape DMs; one day, I'm sure, you'll find a good Planescape DM. I'm convinced the latter's an oxymoron. To remain a good DM, you have to change Planescape (as you've done). To have good Planescape, you need to remove the DM (which is basically what Torment did, given how it was basically following scripts instead of truly running/reacting to the player). To have a Planescape DM without changing Planescape, you (apparently) need to remove the good. Mind you, I'm fine with others enjoying it, just so long as they keep it to themselves. I don't hop onto Deities & The Planes (which should be discussing Deities & The Planes but really is pretty much just Planescape) and start talking about Spelljammer or Eberron's planes or something else related to the board topic but not from Planescape canon, and mercifully I get the same courtesy back, so all's fine and dandy. On a side note, though, speaking of canon and Deities & The Planes, you should have seen the vitrol spewed by the Planescape afficiandos on that board when 4e D&D (note: D&D, not Planescape, but D&D's generic overlay, which is wholly unconnected fluffwise) was announced to have a different cosmology than the Great Wheel. Holy. ****. It took several days of sustained complaints and Old Guard "get off my lawn" remarks before even one of them suggested the obvious (that the Great Wheel still exist as an alternate cosmology, a la Eberron's orbital cosmology or Faerun's tree cosmology). And in truth, they didn't actually suggest it, so much as they finally approved of what someone supportive of the cosmology change had suggested pages before. They did it again when the eryines/succubus distinction was removed and the succubus became a devil, and for even more trivial reasons and obvious solutions. Oh, the humanity.
The_Mess 02-02-08, 12:37 AM	I think to make *any* setting work, you have to change it. They're all generic. You're *supposed* to change them. My current online campaign started in FR, then took a side trip and spent quite a bit of time in Sigil. The Lady of Pain never showed up or so much as impinged on a single plot point. Half the party joined factions, the others didn't. (Actually, we retconned that my character had been a Fated for years. It certainly fit the character like a glove.) I don't know if we violated canon anywhere because I don't know Planescape canon (I know we shredded Star Wars canon when we were playing that!), but we all had fun and have requested to go back in the future.
Eldritch_Lord 02-03-08, 09:29 AM	I find it particularly amusing that in your own Planescape games, you houserule away some canon: Connecting to Eberron and Athas (the latter explicitly doesn't connect anywhere; the Spelljammer reason was its crystal sphere couldn't be opened by any known magic, the Planescape reasoning was... No idea, they just didn't think about it), making up your own factions, and so on. Doesn't this change it to "hate the sin, love the saint"? ;) Planescape isn't the places it connects to, or its individual factions, or anything else specific; it's the overarching cosmology, the idea that there are factions of beliefs that can shape the multiverse if enough believe them, the idea of great moral and ethical concepts warring for dominance, and so on. If you remove the Red Wizards from FR, it's still FR; if you replace House Sivis with a different House, it's still Eberron. They are minor changes that alter a setting, not major overhauls. To me, it's still Planescape if not all the canon matches up, much as some might disagree. (On a side note, not aligning with a faction should be more like being a cleric of no god in a party of clerics with gods. The game doesn't penalize you for choosing your own destiny. Nor does it penalize you for being an atheist. Now, try playing a factionless character in Planescape, and see how long you last before being forced -- nay, railroaded -- into joining one, even if you disagree with all of them. Yes, even the Bleakers (which is a logically impossible position in any setting with divine magic and, more importantly, an empirical afterlife, but logic never stopped anything in Sigil), Free League, and Revolutionary League (the latter two are also logically impossible: if you're opposed to organization, why join an organization?).) It should be, but it really isn't; like you said, most of the time you'll be forced into one or another of them, just like how in a generic D&D game an atheist character is going to eventually come into contact with some "proof" that Pelor is acting in the world or that Hextor is trying to wipe out kingdom X. I'm convinced the latter's an oxymoron. To remain a good DM, you have to change Planescape (as you've done). To have good Planescape, you need to remove the DM (which is basically what Torment did, given how it was basically following scripts instead of truly running/reacting to the player). To have a Planescape DM without changing Planescape, you (apparently) need to remove the good. Like I said above, I think changing Planescape is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. When I referred to "horribly misguided views on Planescape" I meant the theories that state Planescape canon is immutable, the outsiders have to make the PCs feel insignificant, the factions need to control everything and everyone, and so on. Mind you, I'm fine with others enjoying it, just so long as they keep it to themselves. I don't hop onto Deities & The Planes (which should be discussing Deities & The Planes but really is pretty much just Planescape) and start talking about Spelljammer or Eberron's planes or something else related to the board topic but not from Planescape canon, and mercifully I get the same courtesy back, so all's fine and dandy. "Don't ask don't tell" and all that, hmm? ;) "Anti-Planescape! Get him!" On a side note, though, speaking of canon and Deities & The Planes, you should have seen the vitrol spewed by the Planescape afficiandos on that board when 4e D&D (note: D&D, not Planescape, but D&D's generic overlay, which is wholly unconnected fluffwise) was announced to have a different cosmology than the Great Wheel. Holy. ****. It took several days of sustained complaints and Old Guard "get off my lawn" remarks before even one of them suggested the obvious (that the Great Wheel still exist as an alternate cosmology, a la Eberron's orbital cosmology or Faerun's tree cosmology). And in truth, they didn't actually suggest it, so much as they finally approved of what someone supportive of the cosmology change had suggested pages before. They did it again when the eryines/succubus distinction was removed and the succubus became a devil, and for even more trivial reasons and obvious solutions. Oh, the humanity. Oh, I saw it, all right, and was too ashamed on behalf of the good Planescape folks I know to get involved. I mean, you didn't see the FR fans get upset that 3e FR didn't have its own cosmology and therefore must change to the tree thingy they have now, you didn't see the Spelljammer people complain about a lack of crystal spheres....the 4e cosmology is the one major problem I have with 4e, as it's dumping lots of continuity fluff, from Planescape and elsewhere, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go flaming the new guys because they like it.