Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AaonGraywolf 12-09-07, 03:51 PM	Hypothetical question that happens to be pertinent to my campaign. Any given number of reasonably skilled (ECL 4ish) mundane fighter types are facing a lone psion (ECL 8-9). They are well aware that he is a psion and want to do anything they can to prevent him from manifesting next turn and likely killing them all. Fighter A: Decides to ready an action to shoot the psion with his bow on the trigger "when he starts manifesting a power". Fighter B: Steps in close with a spiked chain to threaten the psion. And readies the same action. Fighter C: Moves in and (successfully) grapples the psion. So successfully that he's able to establish a pin on the psion. Psion's turn: With maxed out concentration and a decent con (+14 concentration modifier), the psion expends psionic focus to Take 15 on the check to manifest while grappled (a 29 easily passes for any power the psion can manifest). Doesn't even need to bother rolling to manifest defensively to avoid the AoO from Fighter B. Finally, the psion rolls a 5 or better on the concentration check to Dispense with Displays, and Fighters A and B are caught off guard, unable to take the readied actions to disrupt, since there's no evidence the psion is manifesting a power. The power goes off easily, with little chance of disruption and the fighters found themselves powerless to prevent it. So, my question is, how could anyone hope to have a reasonable chance to prevent a psion from manifesting, short of killing him or rendering him unconscious or stunned? This is beginning to become an issue in my campaign where the melee types are finding themselves frequently outshined in situations where enemies are talented at disrupting and protecting themselves from the party. The melee people end up fighting a difficult battle against being disarmed, grappled, tripped, facing high AC from combat expertise etc. Meanwhile, the psion, even while grappled, pinned, tripped, gagged, underwater, etc. proceeds to dish out pin-point death across the room with little or no chance of failure. Edit: I should mention that the campaign is fairly low magic. Most of the Melee types are ToB classes, so between that and bonded weapons they get by pretty well despite the low magic. The main effect, is that it is very rare for the party to face enemies with any significant magical powers or defenses.
The_Mess 12-09-07, 04:20 PM	Well, there's evidence that he's manifesting, if he doesn't suppress the display, which would be unfortunately easy for him to do. Smokesticks would make it difficult for him to target the party.
BlaineTog 12-09-07, 04:35 PM	They can still tell that he's manifesting even without displays.
Tedronai 12-09-07, 04:37 PM	Actually, the lack of a display is not pertinent to the triggering of the readied actions if the fighters in question have any degree of intelligence and common sense. 'That look of determined concentration on the Psion's face as he stares malevolently at myself and my allies? That means he's manifesting a power. I attack.' Mayby make the roll an intelligence or wisdom check (I'd put the DC somewhere around 7, but no higher than that) to realize that yes, he's actually manifesting a power, despite your best efforts. As for methods of actually preventing manifestation, there are several psionic powers, as well as a few spells, that will serve your purposes. Topping the list are AMF and NPF, there are also several targetted effects that will affect only the Psion in question, but those generally allow a will save, which the Psion is likely to make with ease.
Tsuul 12-09-07, 04:47 PM	They can still tell that he's manifesting even without displays.QFT Removing displays does not remove the "manifesting provokes an attack of opportunity" tag. If it did, it would say so.
InkBlot 12-09-07, 07:13 PM	The psion has twice as many levels as the fighter-types. Unless the psion is pulling punches, they're boned. A single shot of an energy whatever (fire) power could take them to 0 if the psion is level 8, or kill them outright if the psion is level 9, has Overchannel, or has Privileged Energy. Smokesticks (already mentioned) and tower shields can keep the psion from being able to target the fighter-types. Throw a net on him. His high modifier won't matter as much when he has to make four successful concentration checks in a row (one for being entangled, one for being grappled, one for the readied action, and one to manifest defensively) or lose the power entirely. Use as many things as you can find to force more concentration checks. He can't take 15 on another concentration check without refocusing, which provokes attacks of opportunity and takes a full round action. He could have Psionic Meditation, bet then that's one less metapsionic feat he has. Once they get the psion knocked out, blindfold him so he can't target you, tie him up, and get a pet brain mole to drain his power points. Quintessence would help a lot too, but you said it's low magic.
PhaedrusXY 12-09-07, 09:14 PM	Low magic items means casters dominate the game, especially at the mid and higher levels. If you really want a "low magic" game, you need to nerf full spellcasters. They don't have to rely on items nearly as much for their power. They can produce most of what they'd need in the way of magic items with spells/powers. Also, as already stated, nothing in the rules really says they shouldn't get their readied actions. If they were totally unfamiliar with psionics, I could see saying that. But you said they weren't.
CrimsonDeath 12-09-07, 10:18 PM	Some argue that the feat Mage Slayer helps against psionics. If the DM rules that it does, he can't even attempt a Concentration check. Smokesticks (already mentioned) and tower shields can keep the psion from being able to target the fighter-types. A tower shield will protect you from rays and bursts, but not spreads or targeted effects. Once they get the psion knocked out, blindfold him so he can't target you Unless he knows Touchsight. And it still won't stop him from using Energy Burst/Bolt/Cone/Wave or Dimension Door/Teleport/Plane Shift. (The Brain Mole or Quintessence would, though.)
Sinfire Titan 12-09-07, 10:56 PM	Smokesticks (already mentioned) and tower shields can keep the psion from being able to target the fighter-types. *Ahem* This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
AntiDjinn 12-09-07, 11:11 PM	Even with Mage Slayer covering him, he could still manifest; he just can't avoid suffering the AoO because he can't manifest on the defensive. If you are a caster being threatened by someone with that feat, your choices are: Don't cast, cast and suffer the AoO (hope it misses or the damage is not enough to kill you or disrupt your casting), or cast a quickened spell (they don't trigger AoOs). First off, this guy is twice the levels of the party members; if they can beat him at all it should only be with losses and expenditure of party resources (maybe a potion or two quaffed before the fight, since you say they know what they are up against). He will probably get at least one power off, but shooting at characters with 4d10 + Con mods for hits, when he only does up to 8d6 is not going to do them in one shot. Most 4th level or lower save-or-be-hosed powers can't take down a whole party in one shot. He may Dominate one of them (if he happens to be a telepath). At worst they might have to deal with Psionic Blast, and if they are dumb enough to all gather in a 30 foot cone they deserve it. If they let him get off a second shot, then likewise, they deserve their fate. Second, maybe they need to figure out that he can't manifest if he is dead. At 8th or 9th level he has 8 or 9 d4 for hit points + con mods. They know he is a psion and they regard him as an enemy. If instead of trying to grapple (no somantic components) or hold action for X, each one simply attacks on his initiative, using the added damage from weapon specialization and power attack, then down he will go. Odds are he won't even get a second action (unless he starts with Vigor already up). I know you were asking for actions other than killing, but you have a party of all fighters. It is seriously easier to pay a cleric to cast Speak With Dead to get info out of a caster whom you all shanked before he could get an action, than it is to pay for Raise Dead to get back a party member who hesitated when he should have acted. It is certainly the case with an opponent of double+ the partly member's level. If you are overmatched it is always in your interest to end the fight quickly; any attempt to get fancy or drag it out can only go in the other guy's favor.
archerpwr 12-09-07, 11:35 PM	@AntiDjinn: damage to take down a 9th level psion is roughly as follows: Con: 14 base +2 enhancement = 16 (+3) HP 8*(2.5+3) + 4+3 = 51 base Hp from vigor+share pain combo: effectively 90. More if he has overchanelled or empowered it. 140ish hp Damage from a level 4 melee dude: 2d4+6ish str + 8 PA+ 6ish build addition (rage, wpn spec, magic weapon... I'm estimating) = 30ish damage. Considering this is the peak damage, I doubt they'll kill the psion before the psion escapes/attacks.
Artector 12-10-07, 12:01 AM	Even with Mage Slayer covering him, he could still manifest; he just can't avoid suffering the AoO because he can't manifest on the defensive. If you are a caster being threatened by someone with that feat, your choices are: Don't cast, cast and suffer the AoO (hope it misses or the damage is not enough to kill you or disrupt your casting), or cast a quickened spell (they don't trigger AoOs). Or take a 5 foot step out of the way. (If tactically possible) Seriously, a bunch of 4th levels against 1 9th level psion should result in several dead PCs. But here's my suggestions. Get the drop on him. Stab him as many times as possible. Also, use the extremely powerful Tanglefoot bag! For 50 gp a pop you can entangle the son of a gun and make him make more concentration checks. Then stab him. If you can ambush him then I'd suggest dropping as many alchemical items on him as possible, throwing a party's worth of alchemist fires has got to be pretty damaging.
BlaineTog 12-10-07, 01:34 AM	Removing displays does not remove the "manifesting provokes an attack of opportunity" tag. If it did, it would say so.I'm confused. Are you disagreeing with me?
DracoPhoenix 12-10-07, 03:48 AM	Player B's mistake was readying an attack instead of a hood for when C grappled. Most powers (particularly energy) require line of sight. Then you just pepper him with arrows while he's denied his dex bonus. But yeah, 1 L9 psion will kill 3 L4 creatures (PC or not). Energy wall alone could do the job in a couple of rounds. Depending on the psion, Ectoplasmic cocoon, Mass can screw them over. The psion should have at least int 14, meaning he's going to fight tactically and not just brute force.
Tsuul 12-10-07, 04:10 AM	I'm confused. Are you disagreeing with me?Nope. I was originally just going to quote you and put a QFT (quoted for truth)tag after it. Which I'll do now.
InkBlot 12-10-07, 01:35 PM	If you can ambush him then I'd suggest dropping as many alchemical items on him as possible, throwing a party's worth of alchemist fires has got to be pretty damaging. And since alchemist's fire deals damage over the course of two rounds, the psion will have to make yet another concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 continuous damage + power level) or lose his power.
Psionx 12-10-07, 02:30 PM	You really want to beat him? Heh, eh heh, eh ha ha ha ha, mwa ha ha ha ha :evillaugh. Dust of Sneezing and Choking (Cursed item btw) This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds. Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp. Stunned A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). No actions, no manifesting. Not quite magical... but yeah. Also, the grey glutton is what you might want to use to drain power points.
AaonGraywolf 12-10-07, 02:47 PM	First off, this guy is twice the levels of the party members; if they can beat him at all it should only be with losses and expenditure of party resources (maybe a potion or two quaffed before the fight, since you say they know what they are up against). I should probably clarify that the psion is a party member and the fighters are NPCs (average hit points, about 34 given a con of 16) and sub-PC level gear (probably masterworked at best). Thus, the CRs work out to a single EL 8 PC (equivalent party level 4) vs. an EL 7 (+3, "very difficult") encounter. He will probably get at least one power off, but shooting at characters with 4d10 + Con mods for hits, when he only does up to 8d6 is not going to do them in one shot. The psion typically uses Energy Missile with fire or cold so 8d6+8 damage (average 36), with a DC of 24 (10 + 2rd level + 7 int + 5 additional power points . . . or up to DC 28 if he decides to go electricity and burn the focus for Endowment) or Energy Ball at the same level (same damage but only DC 21 given the more normal DC scaling on that power) Second, maybe they need to figure out that he can't manifest if he is dead. At 8th or 9th level he has 8 or 9 d4 for hit points + con mods. Actually, the psion has the second highest hit points in the party (beating out all of the d8 classes), thanks to a good con and Psionic Body, and an AC of about 24 (touch 24, flat-footed 22) if he decides to raise all his psionic force defenses. So killing him outright isn't exactly easy either.
InkBlot 12-10-07, 04:09 PM	I should probably clarify that the psion is a party member and the fighters are NPCs ... Then there really isn't a problem. The PCs are supposed to win. That's the whole art of DMing; letting the PCs win without letting them know you let them win.
Tsuul 12-10-07, 04:54 PM	Thus, the CRs work out to a single EL 8 PC (equivalent party level 4) vs. an EL 7 (+3, "very difficult") encounter.CRs and ELs are just a guideline and are prone to wild swings. You can double or triple the enemy CRs and a simple flight spell/power + ranged attack can devastate it still.
deathbane 12-10-07, 06:29 PM	Player B's mistake was readying an attack instead of a hood for when C grappled. Then you just pepper him with arrows while he's denied his dex bonus. If you shoot into a grapple there is a 50% chance you will hit the wrong person, and the psion could manifest touchsight(I think it is a level 3 or 4 power, not sure) to get around the hood thing if they tie it to his head, but that is at least one action he can't use against the enemy.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 06:34 PM	If you shoot into a grapple there is a 50% chance you will hit the wrong person, and the psion could manifest touchsight(I think it is a level 3 or 4 power, not sure) to get around the hood thing if they tie it to his head, but that is at least one action he can't use against the enemy. Touchsight needs line of effect.
CrimsonDeath 12-10-07, 06:49 PM	Touchsight needs line of effect. Not necessarily from his face, though.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 06:55 PM	Not necessarily from his face, though. They aren't bodybagging him?
deathbane 12-10-07, 07:21 PM	I did not think of this before, but I think there is a psionic dimension door power. He could use that to escape the grapple.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 07:23 PM	I did not think of this before, but I think there is a psionic dimension door power. He could use that to escape the grapple. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm
deathbane 12-10-07, 07:32 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm Thanks, I was to lazy to go look for it.
PhaedrusXY 12-11-07, 01:36 AM	There are lower level ones, also.
bartleby42 12-11-07, 02:10 AM	As fine and dandy as all of this is, you haven't really answered the OP. Suppression of display does not negate attacks of opportunity, but it is easy for a DM new to psionics, or a willfully ignorant one to assume as such. Beyond that error, the OP pointed out a very important point about psions, it is almost impossible to stop one from manifesting. Short of dealing enough damage to make a concentration check impossible, how do you stop a psion from manifesting? There are a ton of ways to stop mages from casting, lets look at the cases: Damage: This'll stop 'em both, some of the time Grapple: Stops most spells, and is just irritating for a psion Blindness: Stops most spells, psions negate with touchsight Silence: Stops most spells, psions love the quiet Deafness: 20% spell failure. "What?" says the psion. Tyeing up, putting in ear plugs, a gag, a blindfold, and kicking if form of effort or concentration is seen: Stops spells, psions just need a concentration check. Did I miss something? Or is it nigh impossible to play defense against a psion? If you can give me one way a fighter can stop a psion from manifesting without hitting him, please do.* I think this might be an issue of psions *gasp* validly lacking a weakness. *I'm sure you can come up with a story reason for this on your own, and won't be terribly pedantic about it, right?
Suspect_Unusual 12-11-07, 03:27 AM	Grapple: Stops most spells, and is just irritating for a psion A DC 20 +power level isn't just irritating, even for a 9th level psion (12 ranks +3 con = +15, or 25% to 40% chance of failure). It's a substantial chance of failure unless the psion invests money in concentration equipment, which is one less item designed to help the psion offensively. If the psion uses his psionic focus, that's one less psionic focus for him to use later, which if he's grappled, may be extremely quickly (y'know, if another of his opponents has a readied action to interrupt manifesting, which is even more likely to hit a grappled opponent). Blindness: Stops most spells, psions negate with touchsight While touchsight is an awesome power, not every psion will have it, especially with the glut of cool/awesome/sweet 3rd level powers available, both on the general lists and the discipline lists. So SOME psions who spend somewhat substantial wealth and/or class features to be difficult to interrupt are, well, difficult to interrupt. This is surprising, how? I will, however, have no problem with admitting that manifesting in dire circumstances is much easier for a psion than casting in dire circumstances, and that components are a very painful aspect of spellcasting that I'm glad psions aren't burdened with. A psion, however, is never impossible to interrupt, especially with multiple opponents wailing on him/readying actions against him/grappling him/etc. In the OP's circumstances (as far as I can tell), forcing 4 concentration checks from the 4 separate fighters is going to give a pretty damn good chance of the psion failing at least ONE check, meaning power failure.
BlaineTog 12-11-07, 03:31 AM	You really want to beat him? Heh, eh heh, eh ha ha ha ha, mwa ha ha ha ha :evillaugh. Dust of Sneezing and Choking (Cursed item btw) This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds. Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp. Stunned A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). No actions, no manifesting. Not quite magical... but yeah. Also, the grey glutton is what you might want to use to drain power points.Doesn't Nauseated make more sense than Stunned? Did I miss something? Or is it nigh impossible to play defense against a psion?Most psions don't pack touchsight. So no. And why the hostility?
CrimsonDeath 12-11-07, 07:54 AM	Doesn't Nauseated make more sense than Stunned? Now that you mention it, it probably does. But the DMG says "stunned".
PhaedrusXY 12-11-07, 12:42 PM	Did I miss something? Or is it nigh impossible to play defense against a psion? If you can give me one way a fighter can stop a psion from manifesting without hitting him, please do.* I think this might be an issue of psions *gasp* validly lacking a weakness. *I'm sure you can come up with a story reason for this on your own, and won't be terribly pedantic about it, right?A 9th level wizard with Silent Spell or a 7th level one with Sudden Silent Spell is equally as hard to prevent from casting. One Silent Dimension Door, and he is out of any grapple and 1000 feet away. I almost always take Silent Spell at 9th level specifically for this purpose when I play wizards... unless I take Sudden Silent Spell instead. And even if you don't want to lethally damage the psion, there is also non-lethal/subdual damage. I think that forces concentration checks with the same DC as doing lethal damage.
AntiDjinn 12-11-07, 03:06 PM	As fine and dandy as all of this is, you haven't really answered the OP. Suppression of display does not negate attacks of opportunity, but it is easy for a DM new to psionics, or a willfully ignorant one to assume as such. Beyond that error, the OP pointed out a very important point about psions, it is almost impossible to stop one from manifesting. Short of dealing enough damage to make a concentration check impossible, how do you stop a psion from manifesting? There are a ton of ways to stop mages from casting, lets look at the cases: Damage: This'll stop 'em both, some of the time Grapple: Stops most spells, and is just irritating for a psion Blindness: Stops most spells, psions negate with touchsight Silence: Stops most spells, psions love the quiet Deafness: 20% spell failure. "What?" says the psion. Tyeing up, putting in ear plugs, a gag, a blindfold, and kicking if form of effort or concentration is seen: Stops spells, psions just need a concentration check. Did I miss something? Or is it nigh impossible to play defense against a psion? If you can give me one way a fighter can stop a psion from manifesting without hitting him, please do.* I think this might be an issue of psions *gasp* validly lacking a weakness. *I'm sure you can come up with a story reason for this on your own, and won't be terribly pedantic about it, right? It is a benefit in most cases, but it can have a downside: If you are beaten it is easier to kill you than to take you prisoner. My PC group has noted that certain prisoners are very hard to hold on to: psions, sorcerers (often have eschew materials) and druids (really hard to prevent someone from simply turning into a snake to escape bond or cells, a small bird to simply fly away). This was also noted in a very long previous thread on building escape-proof prisons in a D&D world: Can't be done without extraordinary means, such as petrification. Between D-Door, Freedom of Movement, Time Hop, Synesthete, and Touchsight, a psion could eventually circumvent any means you have of restricting his movement and senses. With Unconditional Power a psion can even manifest a personal power, such as Metamorphosis or Freedom of Movement, while under the effects of a drug that keeps him dazed or nauseated. So, given that, unless you have a strong motivation for keeping him alive, it is more expedient to simply kill him. If you need to get information then Speak With Dead is easier than Dimensional Anchor + Blindness + Drugs + means to keep him from sleeping so he can't regain power points (which still doesn't stop a previously-prepared Contingency). So for the PC's in my group, certain targets are shoot to kill; anything less is probably a waste of time. If they choose to surrender, then so be it, but why try to capture what you can't hold?
bartleby42 12-11-07, 06:04 PM	A DC 20 +power level isn't just irritating... It's a substantial chance of failure Yes it involves dropping that precious Psionic Focus, but it is still an option that Spell casters don't have. Grapple denies somatic components, so while spell casters still need a concentration check to cast in a grapple the few spells without somatic components, psions can do so without *much* impediment. Most psions don't pack touchsight. So no. And why the hostility? Even though most don't pack touchsight, we are talking about preventing a psion from manifesting. If all wizards had a spell, that prevented them from taking any other 2nd level spells, that let them target while blind, cast in a grapple, and cast while deaf, you know as well as I do it would be brought up constantly in the defense of psionics. It's not a matter of if it is standard issue, its a matter of if it can be done. On a side note, every psion I've ever played has packed touchsight, so I assumed that most did, it seems I'm mistaken. And no hostility was intended, and I'm sorry if you took my post as an affront, I was merely attempting to bring the conversation back to OP of non-magical means to stop a psion from manifesting, if s/he really really wants to. A 9th level wizard with Silent Spell or a 7th level one with Sudden Silent Spell is equally as hard to prevent from casting. One Silent Dimension Door, and he is out of any grapple and 1000 feet away. I almost always take Silent Spell at 9th level specifically for this purpose when I play wizards... unless I take Sudden Silent Spell instead. At the risk of immediately being pointed to the FAQ and committing a mortal sin on the psionics board, psions still have it easier in this respect. We are talking a need for a feat, that gives you a once a day trick. Psions, can do this trick all time, for free. It is a benefit in most cases, but it can have a downside: If you are beaten it is easier to kill you than to take you prisoner. My PC group has noted that certain prisoners are very hard to hold on to: psions, sorcerers (often have eschew materials) and druids (really hard to prevent someone from simply turning into a snake to escape bond or cells, a small bird to simply fly away). This was also noted in a very long previous thread on building escape-proof prisons in a D&D world: Can't be done without extraordinary means, such as petrification. Between D-Door, Freedom of Movement, Time Hop, Synesthete, and Touchsight, a psion could eventually circumvent any means you have of restricting his movement and senses. With Unconditional Power a psion can even manifest a personal power, such as Metamorphosis or Freedom of Movement, while under the effects of a drug that keeps him dazed or nauseated. So, given that, unless you have a strong motivation for keeping him alive, it is more expedient to simply kill him. If you need to get information then Speak With Dead is easier than Dimensional Anchor + Blindness + Drugs + means to keep him from sleeping so he can't regain power points (which still doesn't stop a previously-prepared Contingency). So for the PC's in my group, certain targets are shoot to kill; anything less is probably a waste of time. If they choose to surrender, then so be it, but why try to capture what you can't hold? Well, I hoped to avoid the pedantic discussion about why this could come up. But lets assume that the psion in question is the heir to a kindom and must be kept alive to fulfill a prophecy or some such non-sense. The bag and gag method works well for druids and sorcerers, but not psions. I want everyone to note I'm not calling this horrifically broken, but I'm just mentioning an inequity I haven't seen disscused. I can't seem to find an equivalent to bag and gag for psions, if someone has one that would be nice.
CrimsonDeath 12-11-07, 07:12 PM	Yes it involves dropping that precious Psionic Focus, but it is still an option that Spell casters don't have. Grapple denies somatic components, so while spell casters still need a concentration check to cast in a grapple the few spells without somatic components, psions can do so without *much* impediment. Dimension Door doesn't have any somatic components. Neither does Teleport, for that matter. A Wizard can cast a Silent Dimension Door even when pinned, if he makes the Concentration check.
InkBlot 12-11-07, 07:18 PM	Spellcasters have to take several feats to be able to cast all their spells while pinned, while underwater, or while in an area of silence. Psychics have to take several feats in order to be able to use metapsionics more often than every other round, or use more than one at a time. That seems fair to me.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-07, 12:40 AM	Well, I hoped to avoid the pedantic discussion about why this could come up. But lets assume that the psion in question is the heir to a kindom and must be kept alive to fulfill a prophecy or some such non-sense. The bag and gag method works well for druids and sorcerers, but not psions.Like I said already, subdual damage still works, and it won't kill the prince. AFAIK, it still forces concentration checks with the same DCs as lethal damage on a readied action.
AntiDjinn 12-12-07, 01:34 AM	Well, I hoped to avoid the pedantic discussion about why this could come up. But lets assume that the psion in question is the heir to a kindom and must be kept alive to fulfill a prophecy or some such non-sense. The bag and gag method works well for druids and sorcerers, but not psions. If that is the case, then whoever hired/commanded these 4 really screwed up (or deliberately set his own mission up for failure) The matter is of importance to an entire kingdom (or other socio-economic domain), and he needs to be alive or the mission is a failure. So someone brainstormed and "Send 4 thugs of less than half his level" is the idea that won? What else was on the table? It strains the suspension of disbelief when a plot point is supposed to be of grave importance, yet no one but the PCs put more than token effort into the solution or is willing to spend resources to get the situation right. Isn't there one person in the whole kingdom who could slip something in the guy's drink? "So, Your Highness, it seems you have grown fond of Rapture. Indeed, most pleasant, if one does not try to go too long without it. I should point out that only, well, certain individuals at the Ministry of Dreams know the secrets of its distillation. You are, as always, free to go, though I really think you will be back. When next we meet, we shall discuss your recent behavior and how this might impact your access to this most delightful substance." Prob solved, no bloodshed (rules for addictive substances are in UA if you don't care to touch the BoVD).
BlaineTog 12-12-07, 01:51 AM	Even though most don't pack touchsight, we are talking about preventing a psion from manifesting. If all wizards had a spell, that prevented them from taking any other 2nd level spells, that let them target while blind, cast in a grapple, and cast while deaf, you know as well as I do it would be brought up constantly in the defense of psionics. It's not a matter of if it is standard issue, its a matter of if it can be done.Don't get me wrong, it's a nice power, but it's also 3rd level, the realm of a number of nice powers. It's also 1 minute per level, so he would have to manifest it after the fighters had bagged him, which presumeably means it at least bought them a few rounds. Also, if they put him in a bodybag, he wouldn't have line of effect, which the power still needs, so his 5 pp would be in vain.
Tinari 12-13-07, 07:56 PM	Body bagging someone alive is a funny thought. As far as I see it, the best non-magical way to subdue yonder Psion is have the fighters run around screaming with their arms in the air, flailing and whoopin' and hollerin' and makin' a ruckus, while an invisible rogue comes behind them with a sap. :P At least it'd entertain me while I am using remote viewing on the fighters... dance my puppets!
sijigs 12-13-07, 09:10 PM	I want everyone to note I'm not calling this horrifically broken, but I'm just mentioning an inequity I haven't seen disscused. I can't seem to find an equivalent to bag and gag for psions, if someone has one that would be nice. How about a Monk's stunning fist attack to start with? Psions aren't renowned for Fort saves. Or.. I could agree that perhaps Psions have the upperhand in this instance. BUT... Clerics.. well.. just of the top of my head, have you seen Stalwart Pact or Renewal Pact? Go check it out and tell me there isn't an inequity with those two spells. I think it's a non-issue.
bartleby42 12-15-07, 01:37 AM	Subdual damage doesn't quite work because you need someone always awake and next to the "hostage". That's a little unreasonable, seeing as you can tie up a mage, bag and gag him, and unless he has sudden silent spell or for some reason a silent Dim door or teleport memorized he's stuck. The body bag works for most things, and is really funny to boot! The only flaw in the body bag would be nomads, or other characters with psionic teleport. But that's splitting hairs. Thanks for coming up with a solution to this non-issue, it's just comforting to know that once in a great while psions have something up on wizards.
CrimsonDeath 12-15-07, 02:14 AM	Subdual damage doesn't quite work because you need someone always awake and next to the "hostage". A character heals nonlethal damage at a rate of HD/hour. Put a level 10 character 240 nonlethal in the hole, and he's out for a whole day. Once he's out, grab a Large sap and Power Attack away.
Tsuul 12-15-07, 03:52 AM	Throw some brown mold in the body bag and rest peacefully.