Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 12-07-07, 01:51 AM	I've tried to look at the progressions a bit, and although I feel like I can almost see a pattern, I just can't figure one out that applies consistently. The one with the closest to a consistent advancement appears to be the War Mind, which seems to come fairly close to a quadratic progression. The psychic warrior's power point progression seems to consist of segments of linear progression followed by sudden jumps in the increase rate.The psion has a consistently increasing rate at which it gains power points, and rate at which each level's gain exceeds the previous one's is usually either 1 or 2, with one 3, but beyond that, I can't see a pattern. Psion Level PP dPP/dL d^2PP/dL^2 1 2 2 6 4 3 11 5 1 4 17 6 1 5 25 8 2 6 35 10 2 7 46 11 1 8 58 12 1 9 72 14 2 10 88 16 2 11 106 18 2 12 126 20 2 13 147 21 1 14 170 23 2 15 195 25 2 16 221 26 1 17 250 29 3 18 280 30 1 19 311 31 1 20 343 33 2 Psychic Warrior Level PP dPP/dL d^2PP/dL^2 1 0 2 1 1 3 3 2 1 4 5 2 0 5 7 2 0 6 11 4 2 7 15 4 0 8 19 4 0 9 23 4 0 10 27 4 0 11 35 8 4 12 43 8 0 13 51 8 0 14 59 8 0 15 67 8 0 16 79 12 4 17 91 12 0 18 103 12 0 19 115 12 0 20 127 12 0 Fist of Zuoken Level PP dPP/dL d^2PP/dL^2 1 1 2 3 2 3 6 3 1 4 10 4 1 5 15 5 1 6 23 8 3 7 31 8 0 8 43 12 4 9 55 12 0 10 71 16 4 War Mind Level PP dPP/dL d^2PP/dL^2 1 2 2 5 3 3 9 4 1 4 14 5 1 5 20 6 1 6 28 8 2 7 37 9 1 8 47 10 1 9 58 11 1 10 70 12 1
Fafnir 12-07-07, 06:55 PM	I once wondered the same thing, but every fit I tried required at least a x^3 term. The PsyWar is pretty straightforward. It's got a fixed increment each level, which doubles each 5 levels (except in the beginning). The Psion growth is, if I remember well, quadratic with a small cubic term... I never examined the FoZ. I'll have to see if I can find my notes again. :plotting:
Artector 12-07-07, 07:09 PM	I remember that a while ago someone asked the same thing for the psion. A really ugly formula was developed to approximate it, but it wasn't 100% accurate.
Racinante 12-07-07, 07:16 PM	For the psion ,in excel, the closest I come is =ROUND(0.8422*Level2 + 0.2221*Level + 2.2675,0) which is only off by +/-1 I'm not certain there is an exact formula.
Lokiyn 12-07-07, 09:06 PM	I remember working with it, i don't have the sheets anymore but i think (if i'm remembering correctly) that the power points were not derived from level, so much as derived by some result based on the number of powers gained and the level of the power rather than a straightforward X per Level.
Tsuul 12-08-07, 04:43 AM	Bruce took the formulas in 3.0 and shoved them in to the Fixit() function. Which made them better.
CrimsonDeath 12-08-07, 04:58 AM	Bruce took the formulas in 3.0 and shoved them in to the Fixit() function. Which made them better. Did this, at any point, involve pressing the Easy button? (I'd also like to mention how thrilled I am that there are people out there who have tried to fit PP growth to polynomial functions of manifester level.)
hovnarr 12-08-07, 06:57 AM	I'm not at all sure about this, but I think the pp progression was developed based on arcane spell slots. I'm pretty sure wizards were models for psions, while bards were models for psywars. Take the spell slots for their levels, convert to pp, and add it up. Possibly make minor adjustments to smooth out the curve a bit. That's how I think it was done.
Pitiless_Interfector 12-09-07, 06:43 PM	I'm not at all sure about this, but I think the pp progression was developed based on arcane spell slots. I'm pretty sure wizards were models for psions, while bards were models for psywars. Take the spell slots for their levels, convert to pp, and add it up. Possibly make minor adjustments to smooth out the curve a bit. That's how I think it was done. No, it wasn't. For sorcerers, I remember the equivalent being somewhere around 546 pp, while wizards received ~400+ pp. The spell slot system doesn't work for power points; it's broken.
JulesCARV 12-10-07, 12:32 AM	No, it wasn't. For sorcerers, I remember the equivalent being somewhere around 546 pp, while wizards received ~400+ pp. The spell slot system doesn't work for power points; it's broken. Hmmm... if I count 0 level spell slots as being worth 1 power point, and then 1st level spell slots as worth 1 too, 2nd worth 3, 3rd worth 5, etc, I get a wizard having 328 power points. Of course, intelligence-based bonus spells throw a bit of a wrench into this. If the wizard 20 has 32 int, he has the equivalent of 146 bonus power points, while the psion 20 only has 110. With 32 int, the wizard comes out a bit ahead, but not that much. The sorcerer, meanwhile, gets the equivalent of 492 power points. Bonus spells, of course, give exactly the same PP equivalent as a wizard for a charisma equivalent to the wizard's intelligence. (Of course, the calculations you saw might have factored in free scaling, but that's a rather tricky business. Sure, CL 9 magic missile is five times as powerful as CL 1 magic missile, and only uses a level 1 spell slot, while boosting energy missile requires more power points, but higher level powers not only consume more power, but give more bang per power point too. Energy current is far more efficient than energy ray augmented up to 9 pp, obviously. Overall, I'm not sure how to calculate the effect of free scaling.)
The_Mess 12-10-07, 02:04 AM	Interestingly, the spell point system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) proposed in Unearthed Arcana offers the wizard and sorcerer fewer spell points than are available to psions (232 and 249 respectively). It also removes free scaling damage and requires them to spend extra points for it. As far as I can tell, this would make the spell-point variations of the Wizard and Sorcerer much weaker than the psion, unless I'm missing something. They would, of course, have far more spells than the psion has powers, so perhaps that is meant as balance.
Tsuul 12-10-07, 04:21 AM	Using damage spells to calculate freescaling, wizards get upwards of 800+ PP worth of spells. And I think Unearthed Arcana was put out before 3.5 psionics and is similar to 3.0 psionics in formula. But I am unsure.
Finfreeze 12-10-07, 08:36 AM	The class-based PP growth rates have always seemed a bit wonky to me, especially since ability-based PP increase in such an obvious manner. I have wondered what the side effects of flattening the power point progressions into something (more) linear would be. Maybe make it so you don't get as many power points in the long run beforehand... Say, 4/level for Psychic Warriors...and 8/level for Psions.
The_Mess 12-10-07, 12:49 PM	And I think Unearthed Arcana was put out before 3.5 psionics and is similar to 3.0 psionics in formula. But I am unsure. You're right, but only by a little: Feb 2004 vs. April 2004. One would hope they were talking, but I guess not. By 3.0 standards, the wizard and sorcerer both far outstrips the psion, having more spells known and more pp to cast them with. So, in 3.0 days, was anyone arguing that psionics was overpowered? : - )
CrimsonDeath 12-10-07, 01:28 PM	The class-based PP growth rates have always seemed a bit wonky to me, especially since ability-based PP increase in such an obvious manner. I have wondered what the side effects of flattening the power point progressions into something (more) linear would be. Maybe make it so you don't get as many power points in the long run beforehand... Say, 4/level for Psychic Warriors...and 8/level for Psions. The growth would have to be exponential (at least proportional to level squared), because the rate of expenditure increases exponentially. And a lot of people feel that the PsyWar gets too few PP as it is.
Racinante 12-10-07, 08:49 PM	After playing with this a little more, the first ten levels satisfy: =ROUND(0.75*Level2 + 1.253*Level + 0.2333,0) The next 5 levels satisfy: =ROUND(0.822*Level2 + 0.937*Level - 3.887,0) and the final 5 levels satisfy: 0.5*Level2 + 12.5*Level - 107 exactly. If you use the last formula for all levels, however, you get no PP until 7th level, and then only 5.