Arcane to Psionic Conversions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane to Psionic Conversions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TrinityPower
05-02-07, 03:19 AM This has probably been asked dozens of times, but I'm gonna ask anyway. :P

Has anyone undertaken converting some of the Arcane spells that don't have Psionic counterparts, like Summon Monster, Gate, and Illusion Magic (to my knowledge there isnt much, if any, Illusion type powers)?

Reason I'm asking is b/c I love the whole Psionics system as it just flows much smoother then the spell-slot system of Arcane and Divine magic, but there is nowhere near as much potential for versitility and power within Psionics as the other types have.

If I had my way about it, I'd cut out Arcane entirely, lol. I'm a huge David Eddings fan, and his "sorcerers" have a much closer "feel" to Psionics to them than Arcane magic any day. ;)

Anyway, ranting aside, Thanks for reading my post.
Azoriel
05-02-07, 03:49 AM Such a conversion was done in the 3rd party supplement If Thoughts Could Kill, but that was back in 3.0. Not sure if it was ever updated for 3.5; if such an update was done, the augmentation would be a mess to figure out.

Generally speaking, I prefer to leave illusions to the (arcane) spellcasters. It's part of their area of specialty, sorta like how druids have a lot of nature-type spells. However, since duergars have invisibility as a psi-like ability, and thri-kreen have displacement as a psi-like ability, I do believe it would be quite possible to Expanded Knowledge either of those into your power list as psionics-based illusion powers. (Presumably, they'd work just like the spells, and be of the same level.)
CrimsonDeath
05-02-07, 03:55 PM According to the errata, Thri-Kreen have Greater Concealing Amorpha (which is mechanically identical to Displacement) as a psi-like ability.

And what do you mean, there's no psionic equivalent of Summon Monster? What about Astral Constructs? (Although I admit, Astral Construct could probably use a 2PP augment that creates an additional construct of the same level with the same menu options-- particularly if you use the CPsi version.)
InkBlot
05-02-07, 04:41 PM Psionics don't do illusions. The closest you can get is a telepathy power that makes the target think that something is there that isn't, or vice versa (e.g. cloud mind and false sensory input). Some illusion spells could be translated into telepathy powers this way, but most of them can't be.

Certain illusion powers can also be partialy duplicated with psychometabolism and metacreativity powers. You can't use psionics to disguise yourself with an illusion, but you can psionically contort your face to look like somebody else. Similarly, although you can't make an illusion of an elephant, if your craft (sculpture) check is high enough you can make an astral construct which is visualy indistinguishable from an elephant.

Transmutation spells that change creature's bodies can be translated into psychometabolism powers.

Transmutation spells that change objects can be translated into metacreativity powers.

Conjuration spells that create objects can be translated into metacreativity powers.

Conjuration spells that move creatures or objects (summoning, calling, teleporting) can be translated into psychoportation powers.

Conjuration (healing) spells can become psychometabolism (healing) powers, but would lose their special effect of damaging undead. They may gain the option to damage living creatures as a trade-off.

Evocation spells are almost universaly translated into psychokinetic powers.

Necromancy spells which use negative or positive energy can be translated into psychokinesis powers.

Necromancy spells which alter creature's bodies can be translated into psychometabolism powers.

Divination spells are almost universaly translated into clairsentience powers. Mind-affecting divinations are the exception, since all mind-affecting psionics are telepathy powers. On these you must choose to either remove the mind-affecting tag or make it a telepathy power.

Universal spells usually become psychokinetic powers, under the presumption that psychokinesis can also be used to control the underlying psionic energy within manifestations of powers.

Abjuration spells which prevent travel become psychoportation, those which enhance the body become psychometabolism, those which foul spells in general become psychokinesis.

Are you begining to see a pattern? When translating a spell to psionics, forget about what it's old school was. Look at what the spell does and how it does it.

If the spell moves things or people, then it's psychoportation. If it gives you special knowledge, then it's clairsentience. If it lets you interfere with other people's mind, then it's telepathy. If it creates something, then it's metacreativity. If it changes a living body, then it's psychometabolism. Et cetera.
Tempest Stormwind
05-02-07, 04:48 PM I should note that there are times when you could break down the effect of one spell at a base level and implement it as a power -- for instance, Hyperconscious' Throw Ectoform is similar to Mirror Image (so similar that they can't work together), but is a metacreativity effect. (In some ways it's worse than MI (it's slow, by comparison), but in many other ways it's better (such as the fact that the ectoforms are real and can act on other objects somewhat). This justifies it being not just metacreativity, but also a shaper-only power.)
Lycanthromancer
05-02-07, 05:36 PM Hey, if you want to create an elephant, all you need to do is expend your psionic focus...right?

Also, I could easily see some illusion powers being psychokinesis. After all, you're manipulating light to produce images, yes?
Tempest Stormwind
05-02-07, 05:55 PM Also, I could easily see some illusion powers being psychokinesis. After all, you're manipulating light to produce images, yes?Hello, UTP's Produce Image power.
InkBlot
05-02-07, 08:56 PM I once wrote a psychokinesis (light) power that gave you complete and utter control over the light within a certain area (defined as a number of cubes). You could control what was seen by anyone looking into, through, or out of the area. It even let you collect light and discharge it as a ray once every 1d4 rounds (in a brightly lit area). However, I could never get the phrasing of the power to be concise or elegant enough to be worth publishing on these boards.
MnemonicSV
05-03-07, 03:51 AM InkBlot makes a number of valuable points for converting spells to powers. Here's some more tips:

- No curses.

- No undead creation/augmentation powers (despite stygian powers from Complete Psionics).

- Avoid "polymorph other" type effects, or any mass-transmutation type effects.

- Avoid symbol/rune based powers (despite "glyph of warding, psionic" from Complete Psionic)

- Steer away from "druidic" styled spells (stuff that affects only plants/animals).

- Healing spells downgrade in potency and/or range. Some healing spells should simply not be converted at all... and try to steer clear of resurrection effects.

- Energy based spells are difficult to adjucate, since psionic psychokinesis powers typically offer an option of energy types. Additionally, remember to limit the standard damage dice and insert augments to raise the number of damage dice (with an accompanying raise in DCs). Energy damage powers should never be more powerful than an arcane spell, but can be more powerful than a divine spell. Limit Force effects power damage dice (max) to roughly half manifester level.

- Keep the Psionic flavour alive. For example, Crystallize Memories (Complete Mage), Programmed Amnesia (Spell Compendium), or Gembomb (Spell Compendium) would make good psionic powers. Holy Water (PHB), Fantastic Machine (Spell Compendium), and Corpse Candle (Complete Arcane) would not be good powers. This may just be my opinion... I'm not looking for flames here.

- DO NOT USE COMPLETE PSIONIC AS A GUIDELINE!!! Most agree, the flavour is gone in that book.

There's more tips I'm certain, but that's all I got for now.
TrinityPower
05-03-07, 06:54 AM Well, I've kinda found an indirect answer for my problems with the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana (found a SRD for it online) so with a bit of tweaking I can more or less get the ease of the PP system with the versitility of the Arcane. Now just to convince my DM (my Wife, lol) to let our party actually USE it. :eek:
CrimsonDeath
05-03-07, 04:10 PM Hey, if you want to create an elephant, all you need to do is expend your psionic focus...right?
Exqueeze me? Baking powder?
RavinRay
05-04-07, 03:38 AM Also, I could easily see some illusion powers being psychokinesis. After all, you're manipulating light to produce images, yes?
Yes, I agree with you on that. Illusion spells that create externally-visible images should be equivalent to psychokinesis; these are figments and patterns. Illusion spells of the glamer and phantasm subschools, OTOH, create mentally-visible images, so they should be equivalent to telepathy. Illusions of the shadow subschool might be equivalent to metacreativity (with ectoplasm subbing for shadowstuff). That's my take on it, anyway.

I have a similar opinion with InkBlot that the psionics-magic equivalence as explained in the XPH and SRD is too broad and needs to be broken down into subdiscipline-subschool equivalance where needed.
Zemyla
05-04-07, 10:24 PM I think that Implosion would be a perfect power for psions.

You're crushing them to a fine goo! With your mind!
ravidubey
05-05-07, 12:33 AM This has probably been asked dozens of times, but I'm gonna ask anyway. :P

Has anyone undertaken converting some of the Arcane spells that don't have Psionic counterparts, like Summon Monster, Gate, and Illusion Magic (to my knowledge there isnt much, if any, Illusion type powers)?

Reason I'm asking is b/c I love the whole Psionics system as it just flows much smoother then the spell-slot system of Arcane and Divine magic, but there is nowhere near as much potential for versitility and power within Psionics as the other types have.

If I had my way about it, I'd cut out Arcane entirely, lol. I'm a huge David Eddings fan, and his "sorcerers" have a much closer "feel" to Psionics to them than Arcane magic any day. ;)

Anyway, ranting aside, Thanks for reading my post.

That blows up the game balance, sort of like expanding a warmage's spell list beyond offensive and evocation magic or giving better offensive and mobility spells to clerics.

Illusions, Summoning/Calling, and Necromancy greatly distinguish arcane spellcasters. Anyone who discards the power of these kinds of spells and ignores them when comparing wizards and psions just doesn't know the game-- but that's another thread.

To get back to your thought I'd say leave arcane spell casters their distinct abilities; otherwise it will make psions too powerful.
TrinityPower
05-05-07, 01:10 AM That blows up the game balance, sort of like expanding a warmage's spell list beyond offensive and evocation magic or giving better offensive and mobility spells to clerics.

Illusions, Summoning/Calling, and Necromancy greatly distinguish arcane spellcasters. Anyone who discards the power of these kinds of spells and ignores them when comparing wizards and psions just doesn't know the game-- but that's another thread.

To get back to your thought I'd say leave arcane spell casters their distinct abilities; otherwise it will make psions too powerful.

Oh, I agree, after thinking about it. My biggest beef with the whole Arcane vs. Psionic divide wasnt so much an issue with their roles as it was the "smoothness" between the two. I find the whole PP system much more intuitive then the spell slot system of the other casters.

But like I said in my post above, I have finally got my hands on the SP system (AND talked my DM into implementing it, Yay!). So now I get the best of both worlds. Pity in my next adventure I am relegated to the role of the trapfinder/skillmonkey in the party (but the Psychic Rogue is nice, so the DM tossed me a bone there, lol).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TrinityPower 05-02-07, 03:19 AM	This has probably been asked dozens of times, but I'm gonna ask anyway. :P Has anyone undertaken converting some of the Arcane spells that don't have Psionic counterparts, like Summon Monster, Gate, and Illusion Magic (to my knowledge there isnt much, if any, Illusion type powers)? Reason I'm asking is b/c I love the whole Psionics system as it just flows much smoother then the spell-slot system of Arcane and Divine magic, but there is nowhere near as much potential for versitility and power within Psionics as the other types have. If I had my way about it, I'd cut out Arcane entirely, lol. I'm a huge David Eddings fan, and his "sorcerers" have a much closer "feel" to Psionics to them than Arcane magic any day. ;) Anyway, ranting aside, Thanks for reading my post.
Azoriel 05-02-07, 03:49 AM	Such a conversion was done in the 3rd party supplement If Thoughts Could Kill, but that was back in 3.0. Not sure if it was ever updated for 3.5; if such an update was done, the augmentation would be a mess to figure out. Generally speaking, I prefer to leave illusions to the (arcane) spellcasters. It's part of their area of specialty, sorta like how druids have a lot of nature-type spells. However, since duergars have invisibility as a psi-like ability, and thri-kreen have displacement as a psi-like ability, I do believe it would be quite possible to Expanded Knowledge either of those into your power list as psionics-based illusion powers. (Presumably, they'd work just like the spells, and be of the same level.)
CrimsonDeath 05-02-07, 03:55 PM	According to the errata, Thri-Kreen have Greater Concealing Amorpha (which is mechanically identical to Displacement) as a psi-like ability. And what do you mean, there's no psionic equivalent of Summon Monster? What about Astral Constructs? (Although I admit, Astral Construct could probably use a 2PP augment that creates an additional construct of the same level with the same menu options-- particularly if you use the CPsi version.)
InkBlot 05-02-07, 04:41 PM	Psionics don't do illusions. The closest you can get is a telepathy power that makes the target think that something is there that isn't, or vice versa (e.g. cloud mind and false sensory input). Some illusion spells could be translated into telepathy powers this way, but most of them can't be. Certain illusion powers can also be partialy duplicated with psychometabolism and metacreativity powers. You can't use psionics to disguise yourself with an illusion, but you can psionically contort your face to look like somebody else. Similarly, although you can't make an illusion of an elephant, if your craft (sculpture) check is high enough you can make an astral construct which is visualy indistinguishable from an elephant. Transmutation spells that change creature's bodies can be translated into psychometabolism powers. Transmutation spells that change objects can be translated into metacreativity powers. Conjuration spells that create objects can be translated into metacreativity powers. Conjuration spells that move creatures or objects (summoning, calling, teleporting) can be translated into psychoportation powers. Conjuration (healing) spells can become psychometabolism (healing) powers, but would lose their special effect of damaging undead. They may gain the option to damage living creatures as a trade-off. Evocation spells are almost universaly translated into psychokinetic powers. Necromancy spells which use negative or positive energy can be translated into psychokinesis powers. Necromancy spells which alter creature's bodies can be translated into psychometabolism powers. Divination spells are almost universaly translated into clairsentience powers. Mind-affecting divinations are the exception, since all mind-affecting psionics are telepathy powers. On these you must choose to either remove the mind-affecting tag or make it a telepathy power. Universal spells usually become psychokinetic powers, under the presumption that psychokinesis can also be used to control the underlying psionic energy within manifestations of powers. Abjuration spells which prevent travel become psychoportation, those which enhance the body become psychometabolism, those which foul spells in general become psychokinesis. Are you begining to see a pattern? When translating a spell to psionics, forget about what it's old school was. Look at what the spell does and how it does it. If the spell moves things or people, then it's psychoportation. If it gives you special knowledge, then it's clairsentience. If it lets you interfere with other people's mind, then it's telepathy. If it creates something, then it's metacreativity. If it changes a living body, then it's psychometabolism. Et cetera.
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 04:48 PM	I should note that there are times when you could break down the effect of one spell at a base level and implement it as a power -- for instance, Hyperconscious' Throw Ectoform is similar to Mirror Image (so similar that they can't work together), but is a metacreativity effect. (In some ways it's worse than MI (it's slow, by comparison), but in many other ways it's better (such as the fact that the ectoforms are real and can act on other objects somewhat). This justifies it being not just metacreativity, but also a shaper-only power.)
Lycanthromancer 05-02-07, 05:36 PM	Hey, if you want to create an elephant, all you need to do is expend your psionic focus...right? Also, I could easily see some illusion powers being psychokinesis. After all, you're manipulating light to produce images, yes?
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 05:55 PM	Also, I could easily see some illusion powers being psychokinesis. After all, you're manipulating light to produce images, yes?Hello, UTP's Produce Image power.
InkBlot 05-02-07, 08:56 PM	I once wrote a psychokinesis (light) power that gave you complete and utter control over the light within a certain area (defined as a number of cubes). You could control what was seen by anyone looking into, through, or out of the area. It even let you collect light and discharge it as a ray once every 1d4 rounds (in a brightly lit area). However, I could never get the phrasing of the power to be concise or elegant enough to be worth publishing on these boards.
MnemonicSV 05-03-07, 03:51 AM	InkBlot makes a number of valuable points for converting spells to powers. Here's some more tips: - No curses. - No undead creation/augmentation powers (despite stygian powers from Complete Psionics). - Avoid "polymorph other" type effects, or any mass-transmutation type effects. - Avoid symbol/rune based powers (despite "glyph of warding, psionic" from Complete Psionic) - Steer away from "druidic" styled spells (stuff that affects only plants/animals). - Healing spells downgrade in potency and/or range. Some healing spells should simply not be converted at all... and try to steer clear of resurrection effects. - Energy based spells are difficult to adjucate, since psionic psychokinesis powers typically offer an option of energy types. Additionally, remember to limit the standard damage dice and insert augments to raise the number of damage dice (with an accompanying raise in DCs). Energy damage powers should never be more powerful than an arcane spell, but can be more powerful than a divine spell. Limit Force effects power damage dice (max) to roughly half manifester level. - Keep the Psionic flavour alive. For example, Crystallize Memories (Complete Mage), Programmed Amnesia (Spell Compendium), or Gembomb (Spell Compendium) would make good psionic powers. Holy Water (PHB), Fantastic Machine (Spell Compendium), and Corpse Candle (Complete Arcane) would not be good powers. This may just be my opinion... I'm not looking for flames here. - DO NOT USE COMPLETE PSIONIC AS A GUIDELINE!!! Most agree, the flavour is gone in that book. There's more tips I'm certain, but that's all I got for now.
TrinityPower 05-03-07, 06:54 AM	Well, I've kinda found an indirect answer for my problems with the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana (found a SRD for it online) so with a bit of tweaking I can more or less get the ease of the PP system with the versitility of the Arcane. Now just to convince my DM (my Wife, lol) to let our party actually USE it. :eek:
CrimsonDeath 05-03-07, 04:10 PM	Hey, if you want to create an elephant, all you need to do is expend your psionic focus...right? Exqueeze me? Baking powder?
RavinRay 05-04-07, 03:38 AM	Also, I could easily see some illusion powers being psychokinesis. After all, you're manipulating light to produce images, yes? Yes, I agree with you on that. Illusion spells that create externally-visible images should be equivalent to psychokinesis; these are figments and patterns. Illusion spells of the glamer and phantasm subschools, OTOH, create mentally-visible images, so they should be equivalent to telepathy. Illusions of the shadow subschool might be equivalent to metacreativity (with ectoplasm subbing for shadowstuff). That's my take on it, anyway. I have a similar opinion with InkBlot that the psionics-magic equivalence as explained in the XPH and SRD is too broad and needs to be broken down into subdiscipline-subschool equivalance where needed.
Zemyla 05-04-07, 10:24 PM	I think that Implosion would be a perfect power for psions. You're crushing them to a fine goo! With your mind!
ravidubey 05-05-07, 12:33 AM	This has probably been asked dozens of times, but I'm gonna ask anyway. :P Has anyone undertaken converting some of the Arcane spells that don't have Psionic counterparts, like Summon Monster, Gate, and Illusion Magic (to my knowledge there isnt much, if any, Illusion type powers)? Reason I'm asking is b/c I love the whole Psionics system as it just flows much smoother then the spell-slot system of Arcane and Divine magic, but there is nowhere near as much potential for versitility and power within Psionics as the other types have. If I had my way about it, I'd cut out Arcane entirely, lol. I'm a huge David Eddings fan, and his "sorcerers" have a much closer "feel" to Psionics to them than Arcane magic any day. ;) Anyway, ranting aside, Thanks for reading my post. That blows up the game balance, sort of like expanding a warmage's spell list beyond offensive and evocation magic or giving better offensive and mobility spells to clerics. Illusions, Summoning/Calling, and Necromancy greatly distinguish arcane spellcasters. Anyone who discards the power of these kinds of spells and ignores them when comparing wizards and psions just doesn't know the game-- but that's another thread. To get back to your thought I'd say leave arcane spell casters their distinct abilities; otherwise it will make psions too powerful.
TrinityPower 05-05-07, 01:10 AM	That blows up the game balance, sort of like expanding a warmage's spell list beyond offensive and evocation magic or giving better offensive and mobility spells to clerics. Illusions, Summoning/Calling, and Necromancy greatly distinguish arcane spellcasters. Anyone who discards the power of these kinds of spells and ignores them when comparing wizards and psions just doesn't know the game-- but that's another thread. To get back to your thought I'd say leave arcane spell casters their distinct abilities; otherwise it will make psions too powerful. Oh, I agree, after thinking about it. My biggest beef with the whole Arcane vs. Psionic divide wasnt so much an issue with their roles as it was the "smoothness" between the two. I find the whole PP system much more intuitive then the spell slot system of the other casters. But like I said in my post above, I have finally got my hands on the SP system (AND talked my DM into implementing it, Yay!). So now I get the best of both worlds. Pity in my next adventure I am relegated to the role of the trapfinder/skillmonkey in the party (but the Psychic Rogue is nice, so the DM tossed me a bone there, lol).