Ardent and Divine Mind [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ardent and Divine Mind [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bowmore
04-01-07, 12:42 PM So I was given Complete Psionic a while back as a gift, and only recently have I gotten around to reading it. It seems fairly mediocre all in all, with only a few things that I'd bother using. I love the Lurk's flavour, but the other two classes -- Ardent and Divine Mind -- seem a little... underpowered? On paper. I haven't had a chance to see any of them in action, though, so I can't be sure.

What are all your impressions on the Ardent and Divine Mind? Are they fine as they are? If not, what kind of alterations could/should be made to them to make them a more viable option?
Tempest Stormwind
04-01-07, 12:47 PM Divine Mind's a waste in every sense of the term. Scrap it altogether; it's beyond hope and dripping in the flavor equivalent of toxic sludge.

The ardent's a worthy class -- fun, versatile, potent, and adaptable if you know what you're doing. Think of it as "how clerics of a cause SHOULD have been done", only built with psionics in mind.
AntiDjinn
04-01-07, 01:19 PM The divine mind is a paladin knockoff. Don't even bother. Why play a second-rate version of a class that isn't all that fun to play in the first place?

The ardent is an original and versatile class. Think of an ardent as a person for whom philosophy is more than an academic subject; it is a way of life and a path to power. The psion uses discipline to sharpen and increase his mental talents, the wilder uses passion, for the ardent it is belief. But where a cleric of a god of creation might worship the concept of creativity, the ardent lives it and embodies the principle himself.

The ardent is not a class I would recommend for a player not familiar with the system. It takes some planning to build an effective ardent. Choose your primary mantles very carefully. Map out the mantles and additional powers you will want and their order. Not every mantle has a power at every level so make sure your choices will always give you an option (or if none of your selected mantles have a 5th level power, go back and pick up a 3rd or 4th level that you skipped).
Bowmore
04-01-07, 01:30 PM Divine Mind's a waste in every sense of the term. Scrap it altogether; it's beyond hope and dripping in the flavor equivalent of toxic sludge.

The divine mind is a paladin knockoff. Don't even bother. Why play a second-rate version of a class that isn't all that fun to play in the first place?

So the Ardent is just fine as it is, but is the Divine Mind really beyond hope? Is it just a boring class, a half-hearted attempt at some manner of "psionic paladin?" Is there anything wrong with it mechanically, or is this just a fluff issue? (if it is, I totally understand -- I actually got bored reading the class description and I was having trouble thinking of a way to fit it into my campaign world.)

Is there a way to 'fix' the divine mind?:confused:
Bacris
04-01-07, 01:33 PM Well, consider that the Ardent and Divine Mind were originally 1 class that got split into two.

I think if you take the divine mind, completely reflavor it and up the BAB to Full, you'd have a modest class, but that's a bandaid fix, and not really worth doing.
Suldarr'essalar
04-01-07, 01:44 PM So the Ardent is just fine as it is, but is the Divine Mind really beyond hope? Is it just a boring class, a half-hearted attempt at some manner of "psionic paladin?" Is there anything wrong with it mechanically, or is this just a fluff issue? (if it is, I totally understand -- I actually got bored reading the class description and I was having trouble thinking of a way to fit it into my campaign world.)

Is there a way to 'fix' the divine mind?:confused:
Divine Mind lacks both fluff and mechanical buff.
I did a 'fix' - the wargeist (see sig), that is based on divine mind's auras (as the only thing from dm that is interesting), but that's where the similarities end.
lears_fool
04-02-07, 10:44 AM I'll join the 'less than impressed with the Divine Mind' crew, it really is underwhelming. Which is too bad, I wanted that one to work.

The Ardent on the other hand is a very solid class and can be plenty powerful and effective. Though picking mantles and powers can be absolutely agonizing due to the limited selection! :)
ClobberinTime
04-02-07, 03:27 PM Hey, I got an ardent question, are the levels on the powers you can pick still just based on ML, i.e. you can use Practiced Manifester to up your power?
InkBlot
04-02-07, 03:39 PM Yes. Practiced Manifester (if you multiclass), Overchannel, and even some mantles' granted abilities, let you choose higher level powers sooner.
ClobberinTime
04-02-07, 03:51 PM All I have to say then is wow, thats great, to my mind that makes ardent the best class for multiclass ever.
lears_fool
04-02-07, 04:07 PM All I have to say then is wow, thats great, to my mind that makes ardent the best class for multiclass ever.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. It is extremely good for a psionic 'gish' type class, but look at all the popular arcane/divine gish type classes. . they already get to take advantage of some of the dozens of full casting Arcane and Divine Prestige Classes out there.

You still lose out on daily power point allotment, so it'd be better said that the Ardent makes the other more limited psionic Prestige Classes almost as viable as the full-casting Arcane ones.
lears_fool
04-02-07, 04:28 PM Yes. Practiced Manifester (if you multiclass), Overchannel, and even some mantles' granted abilities, let you choose higher level powers sooner.
Overchannel? I'm fairly certain that short term effects like that would not apply, just as being able to wild shape into a form with a feat does not grant you access to feats that it is a prerequisite of.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bowmore 04-01-07, 12:42 PM	So I was given Complete Psionic a while back as a gift, and only recently have I gotten around to reading it. It seems fairly mediocre all in all, with only a few things that I'd bother using. I love the Lurk's flavour, but the other two classes -- Ardent and Divine Mind -- seem a little... underpowered? On paper. I haven't had a chance to see any of them in action, though, so I can't be sure. What are all your impressions on the Ardent and Divine Mind? Are they fine as they are? If not, what kind of alterations could/should be made to them to make them a more viable option?
Tempest Stormwind 04-01-07, 12:47 PM	Divine Mind's a waste in every sense of the term. Scrap it altogether; it's beyond hope and dripping in the flavor equivalent of toxic sludge. The ardent's a worthy class -- fun, versatile, potent, and adaptable if you know what you're doing. Think of it as "how clerics of a cause SHOULD have been done", only built with psionics in mind.
AntiDjinn 04-01-07, 01:19 PM	The divine mind is a paladin knockoff. Don't even bother. Why play a second-rate version of a class that isn't all that fun to play in the first place? The ardent is an original and versatile class. Think of an ardent as a person for whom philosophy is more than an academic subject; it is a way of life and a path to power. The psion uses discipline to sharpen and increase his mental talents, the wilder uses passion, for the ardent it is belief. But where a cleric of a god of creation might worship the concept of creativity, the ardent lives it and embodies the principle himself. The ardent is not a class I would recommend for a player not familiar with the system. It takes some planning to build an effective ardent. Choose your primary mantles very carefully. Map out the mantles and additional powers you will want and their order. Not every mantle has a power at every level so make sure your choices will always give you an option (or if none of your selected mantles have a 5th level power, go back and pick up a 3rd or 4th level that you skipped).
Bowmore 04-01-07, 01:30 PM	Divine Mind's a waste in every sense of the term. Scrap it altogether; it's beyond hope and dripping in the flavor equivalent of toxic sludge. The divine mind is a paladin knockoff. Don't even bother. Why play a second-rate version of a class that isn't all that fun to play in the first place? So the Ardent is just fine as it is, but is the Divine Mind really beyond hope? Is it just a boring class, a half-hearted attempt at some manner of "psionic paladin?" Is there anything wrong with it mechanically, or is this just a fluff issue? (if it is, I totally understand -- I actually got bored reading the class description and I was having trouble thinking of a way to fit it into my campaign world.) Is there a way to 'fix' the divine mind?:confused:
Bacris 04-01-07, 01:33 PM	Well, consider that the Ardent and Divine Mind were originally 1 class that got split into two. I think if you take the divine mind, completely reflavor it and up the BAB to Full, you'd have a modest class, but that's a bandaid fix, and not really worth doing.
Suldarr'essalar 04-01-07, 01:44 PM	So the Ardent is just fine as it is, but is the Divine Mind really beyond hope? Is it just a boring class, a half-hearted attempt at some manner of "psionic paladin?" Is there anything wrong with it mechanically, or is this just a fluff issue? (if it is, I totally understand -- I actually got bored reading the class description and I was having trouble thinking of a way to fit it into my campaign world.) Is there a way to 'fix' the divine mind?:confused: Divine Mind lacks both fluff and mechanical buff. I did a 'fix' - the wargeist (see sig), that is based on divine mind's auras (as the only thing from dm that is interesting), but that's where the similarities end.
lears_fool 04-02-07, 10:44 AM	I'll join the 'less than impressed with the Divine Mind' crew, it really is underwhelming. Which is too bad, I wanted that one to work. The Ardent on the other hand is a very solid class and can be plenty powerful and effective. Though picking mantles and powers can be absolutely agonizing due to the limited selection! :)
ClobberinTime 04-02-07, 03:27 PM	Hey, I got an ardent question, are the levels on the powers you can pick still just based on ML, i.e. you can use Practiced Manifester to up your power?
InkBlot 04-02-07, 03:39 PM	Yes. Practiced Manifester (if you multiclass), Overchannel, and even some mantles' granted abilities, let you choose higher level powers sooner.
ClobberinTime 04-02-07, 03:51 PM	All I have to say then is wow, thats great, to my mind that makes ardent the best class for multiclass ever.
lears_fool 04-02-07, 04:07 PM	All I have to say then is wow, thats great, to my mind that makes ardent the best class for multiclass ever. Well, I wouldn't go that far. It is extremely good for a psionic 'gish' type class, but look at all the popular arcane/divine gish type classes. . they already get to take advantage of some of the dozens of full casting Arcane and Divine Prestige Classes out there. You still lose out on daily power point allotment, so it'd be better said that the Ardent makes the other more limited psionic Prestige Classes almost as viable as the full-casting Arcane ones.
lears_fool 04-02-07, 04:28 PM	Yes. Practiced Manifester (if you multiclass), Overchannel, and even some mantles' granted abilities, let you choose higher level powers sooner. Overchannel? I'm fairly certain that short term effects like that would not apply, just as being able to wild shape into a form with a feat does not grant you access to feats that it is a prerequisite of.