Post/Author/DateTime	Post
calronmoonflower 04-01-08, 11:17 PM	A debate started on the 4th edition forms about an overpower combo in 3.5 so I'd thought I'd cross it over to here. Psionics? Original post by Titanium Dragon on the issue Uh, balanced? No. 3.5 psionics are hideously broken; you can, at 5th level, take two actions in the first round of combat and/or always win initiative. At 6th level, you can overchannel twin Synchronicity and get two actions every round. Psionics are not "balanced" so much as they are "not quite as powerful as magic at higher levels", but psions break the game a lot sooner than wizards do (well, arguably). However, being weaker than a Wizard is not the same thing as being balanced. Response by Eldritch_Lord Titanium Dragon gives the example I respond to example Titanium Dragon's response \/ My latest response. And I think you're missing the trick with it. Yeah, it only lets you manifest a power worth one power point; not-so-coincidentally, it just so happens that Synchronicity costs one power point. So you simply manifest synchronicity to ready an action, ready whatever power you want, then blast them with it. And by making you never flat footed, it means you can use that immediate action whenever you want in the first or surprise round - if you roll high on initiative, you take your action, then use Synchronicity to maintain your initiative order and get in an extra action. If you roll poorly for initative, you simply use it right off the bat anyway, as all that really matters is how many actions you get between opponent's actions. Either way you're getting a "free" action. It doesn't prevent you from being flat footed. It lets you retain Dex to AC while flat-footed. So for 5 power points to set up Sense Danger (whose "never flatfooted" thing is also rather handy for various reasons), plus one power point per encounter on synchronicity allows you to always win initiative/take two actions in the first round of combat. That's a really good investment of power points. Taking two standard actions is quite nice, but I don't see it as overpowered. I noticed easier that you said that you could twin Synchoicity, but two effects from the same source do not stack. Also your math is a bit off, you need to spend 5 power points on Sense Danger (page 106 of Magic of Eberron for those that want to know) and then another 3 on Synchoicity for this to work right. I still do not get where you are getting "always win initiative" from. Even with that it will take more to show that psionics are broken as a whole.
Lycanthromancer 04-02-08, 12:27 AM	Cal, we've been blessed with - what - a year of no 'psionics is broken' threads? And now you have violated the peace that has graced us. YOU SHALL BE PUNISHED FOR YOUR INSOLENCE. You do not know what is coming, and you shall not know my timetable, but YOU. WILL. PAY. Up to and including a demotivator, if necessary. Pray to your impotent gods for mercy. :P
calronmoonflower 04-02-08, 12:34 AM	Well I guess if you just pretent not to exist then people will stop thinking psionics is broken. :rolleyes: :P
Zardnaar 04-02-08, 01:13 AM	I let Psionics into my games as a DM and I think its overpowered. Magic is worse so if you're gonna let one into the game may as well let them both in.
Lycanthromancer 04-02-08, 01:23 AM	I let Psionics into my games as a DM and I think its overpowered. Magic is worse so if you're gonna let one into the game may as well let them both in.Psionics is weaker, in general, than core-only magic is, and core-only Vancian magic is part and parcel, indeed centric to, how the game is designed to operate, at all levels. After all, a standard group of four adventurers is, according to all three core sourcebooks, supposed to have an arcanist-type, a healer/buffer, a meatshield, and a sneakster/scout. Psions and wilders fill the arcanist role (and focused builds can handle healer past level 3) very well, while at the same time being relatively weak compared to sorcerers and (especially) wizards. Psychic warriors can fill the meatshield role, and do so better than a straight fighter (which is often considered very weak, and has difficulty handling anything of any difficulty outside of battle, which is a non-issue with psywars). Soulknives are considered weaker than rogues, which are better at the skirmisher/scout role in general (soulknives are too schizophrenic with their abilities, and their primary class ability can easily be simulated in other ways that don't require giving up other class benefits to get - ie, gold). That there is a small amount of overlap with the other roles is rather a moot point (that you didn't bring up, but I am), since a party of four wizards past about level 8 can fill all four roles by themselves. In any case, one or two powers from outside sources hardly invalidates the entire psionics system, especially when the vast majority of psi-fans consider Complete Psionic to be a fever-induced hallucinatory dream, for the sake of our respective sanities. Gah. One thread and it's already old-hat again. See the stickied threads above.
Zardnaar 04-02-08, 01:41 AM	Psionics is weaker, in general, than core-only magic is, and core-only Vancian magic is part and parcel, indeed centric to, how the game is designed to operate, at all levels. After all, a standard group of four adventurers is, according to all three core sourcebooks, supposed to have an arcanist-type, a healer/buffer, a meatshield, and a sneakster/scout. Psions and wilders fill the arcanist role (and focused builds can handle healer past level 3) very well, while at the same time being relatively weak compared to sorcerers and (especially) wizards. Psychic warriors can fill the meatshield role, and do so better than a straight fighter (which is often considered very weak, and has difficulty handling anything of any difficulty outside of battle, which is a non-issue with psywars). Soulknives are considered weaker than rogues, which are better at the skirmisher/scout role in general (soulknives are too schizophrenic with their abilities, and their primary class ability can easily be simulated in other ways that don't require giving up other class benefits to get - ie, gold). That there is a small amount of overlap with the other roles is rather a moot point (that you didn't bring up, but I am), since a party of four wizards past about level 8 can fill all four roles by themselves. In any case, one or two powers from outside sources hardly invalidates the entire psionics system, especially when the vast majority of psi-fans consider Complete Psionic to be a fever-induced hallucinatory dream, for the sake of our respective sanities. Gah. One thread and it's already old-hat again. See the stickied threads above. Don't get me wrong I mlike 3.5 Psionics. I think the Psion is a better class than the wizard except power wise theres a double handful of overpowered stupid spells.
Lycanthromancer 04-02-08, 01:47 AM	Core only? I'd say a double-handful is probably giving magic the benefit of the doubt when it comes to not being overpowered. Most of the brokenness comes in when you start using spells in tandem to do really nasty things, such as dealing millions of points of damage with a 5th level spell (to up to 15 targets), or using a few thousand gold and some in-game time to achieve immortality and invincibility. Very doable, and with splatbooks it only gets worse from there. Luckily, barring maybe 3 or so powers in the XPH (I'm not counting CPsi here, because 80% of that book is flat-out uberborkken), psionics doesn't have nearly that level of issues.
Zardnaar 04-02-08, 02:26 AM	Core only? I'd say a double-handful is probably giving magic the benefit of the doubt when it comes to not being overpowered. Most of the brokenness comes in when you start using spells in tandem to do really nasty things, such as dealing millions of points of damage with a 5th level spell (to up to 15 targets), or using a few thousand gold and some in-game time to achieve immortality and invincibility. Very doable, and with splatbooks it only gets worse from there. Luckily, barring maybe 3 or so powers in the XPH (I'm not counting CPsi here, because 80% of that book is flat-out uberborkken), psionics doesn't have nearly that level of issues. Most of the really stupid spells are high level (Gate, Timestop,Disjunction etc) so in most games don't matter so much. Low level Psions tend to outperform wizards due to lower level acces to their powers (sugggestion at level 3 instead of 5). I think the actual Psion class is better than Wizard class apart from the dumb spells.
Tempest Stormwind 04-02-08, 02:50 AM	Most of the really stupid spells are high level (Gate, Timestop,Disjunction etc) so in most games don't matter so much. Low level Psions tend to outperform wizards due to lower level acces to their powers (sugggestion at level 3 instead of 5). I think the actual Psion class is better than Wizard class apart from the dumb spells. Two minor notes. Five out of six types of psion cannot use suggestion. I play a shaper, for instance -- unless I spend a feat (which I qualify for at level 5) I can't use Suggestion, period. In return, several of my unique powers (most notably Astral Construct) can't be used by telepaths unless they take the same feat, which gets expensive. (Thus, psions tend to have lower level access to a small group of powers in exchange for never getting others. Imagine how a wizard would feel if he had to choose only ONE of buffs, mobility, blasting, summoning, divination, or enchantments, and would lose the other five?) Meanwhile, unless the wizard banned Enchantment in school specialization, he can pick it up for a few hundred gold, tops, and know it forevermore, even if he only needs to cast it a handful of times. Second, if you think most of the stupid spells are high level, you haven't seen a good party with effects like Rope Trick or Shrink Item, or even Protection from Evil in some cases. (Note that this first-level spell prevents Asmodeus himself from influencing you (even with the most powerful magic ever published or to be published) without taking down the spell first, and it guards you against a huge range of summon effects.) Most of the big *numbers* don't show up until high level, but any experienced optimizer will tell you that control effects (especially effects with no save) are better than damage effects. Mind you, in solidarity with Titanium Dragon, he is mentioning the book with the second-most broken psionic effects in it (after Races of Destiny -- note that Complete Psionic's adjustment to Anticipatory Strike prevents you from using it and Synchronicity to turnjack someone). The problem is, he's not looking at the right power to illustrate his point, as CalronMoonflower mentions (Sense Danger isn't really all that hot due to the intense price and low duration). The real broken power in that book is Forced Dream -- it's basically Time Regression, but a general power several levels earlier with a built-in contingency effect and a few other goodies. If that wasn't enough, we combined that with Mass Time Hop (for the long duration) and a psicrystal with readied actions to basically develop save/load mechanics for D&D (complete with knowledge that what you were planning to do was going to lead to a TPK, so you try something different on this "life"). If I had a player using that power to its full potential, I'd be tempted to bust out the Edict of Time on his ass. (There's also Faint Memory, which is a very disruptive power if it's used cleverly, but it's managable.)
calronmoonflower 04-02-08, 03:00 AM	One important thing that has not been brought up the the point in which balance occurs. Monks can get a huge power up with Mighty Wallop, Greater (Dragon Magic) as the damage they deal increases by 1 size for every four caster levels (of course without that they generally suck) and both scale to level. With the right power ups they can be huge damage dealers. Rogues can deal huge amounts of damage with two-weapon fighting. Ninjas can do the same as rogues, just less often per day. Generally they should be able to put the hurt down. Barbarians can deal over 1,200 damage per turn spread over multiple attacks with a charging build (but only on a charge). Druids/Clerics: Do I have to. Wizards are near the top in power. Artificers are in the top four. They nova better than any other class. Duskblades can combine Arcane Strike with their own ability to channel spells for big boosts. There's a balance to the game and it points to psionics not being overpowered unless you ignore the bases of balance (at least the threat of four encounters per day). One single one encounter many psionic classes can deal insane amounts of damage.
Zardnaar 04-02-08, 06:05 AM	Two minor notes. Five out of six types of psion cannot use suggestion. I play a shaper, for instance -- unless I spend a feat (which I qualify for at level 5) I can't use Suggestion, period. In return, several of my unique powers (most notably Astral Construct) can't be used by telepaths unless they take the same feat, which gets expensive. (Thus, psions tend to have lower level access to a small group of powers in exchange for never getting others. Imagine how a wizard would feel if he had to choose only ONE of buffs, mobility, blasting, summoning, divination, or enchantments, and would lose the other five?) Meanwhile, unless the wizard banned Enchantment in school specialization, he can pick it up for a few hundred gold, tops, and know it forevermore, even if he only needs to cast it a handful of times. Second, if you think most of the stupid spells are high level, you haven't seen a good party with effects like Rope Trick or Shrink Item, or even Protection from Evil in some cases. (Note that this first-level spell prevents Asmodeus himself from influencing you (even with the most powerful magic ever published or to be published) without taking down the spell first, and it guards you against a huge range of summon effects.) Most of the big *numbers* don't show up until high level, but any experienced optimizer will tell you that control effects (especially effects with no save) are better than damage effects. Mind you, in solidarity with Titanium Dragon, he is mentioning the book with the second-most broken psionic effects in it (after Races of Destiny -- note that Complete Psionic's adjustment to Anticipatory Strike prevents you from using it and Synchronicity to turnjack someone). The problem is, he's not looking at the right power to illustrate his point, as CalronMoonflower mentions (Sense Danger isn't really all that hot due to the intense price and low duration). The real broken power in that book is Forced Dream -- it's basically Time Regression, but a general power several levels earlier with a built-in contingency effect and a few other goodies. If that wasn't enough, we combined that with Mass Time Hop (for the long duration) and a psicrystal with readied actions to basically develop save/load mechanics for D&D (complete with knowledge that what you were planning to do was going to lead to a TPK, so you try something different on this "life"). If I had a player using that power to its full potential, I'd be tempted to bust out the Edict of Time on his ass. (There's also Faint Memory, which is a very disruptive power if it's used cleverly, but it's managable.) That was just an example. Most Psions get an equivilent level spell around 2 earlier levels than a spellcaster. IN theory Psions and Wizards can both do XYZ but most players don't bother nor do they use barbarian builds that deal 1000+ damage. In an "average" game where no one is trying to exploit loopholes I've notice Psionics are overpowered. This is coming from a DM tha allows Psionics into his game and has the XPH and Complete Psion. I've also banned some of the more extreme cheese from my games (divine metamagic). Sometimes magic is better, other time psionics but in general magic+psionics>everyhing else that isn't a primary caster. Druid, Wizard, Cleric,Psion and Artificer would be the craziest classes in the game correct? Maybe Sorcerer as well but I like any of the above classes better. Out of 50+ classes is the Psion not at least in the top 10 power wise if not top 5?
calronmoonflower 04-02-08, 06:21 AM	That was just an example. Most Psions get an equivilent level spell around 2 earlier levels than a spellcaster. IN theory Psions and Wizards can both do XYZ but most players don't bother nor do they use barbarian builds that deal 1000+ damage. Magic gets save or suck and save or die spells more often and earlier than psionics. Psionics classes also get far less powers known than spellcasters get spells. Oh, and can you give example of getting power equivalent to spells earlier. Without examples it is hard to see the grounds for your argument.
larry_the_titan 04-02-08, 11:30 AM	Magic gets save or suck and save or die spells more often and earlier than psionics. Psionics classes also get far less powers known than spellcasters get spells. Oh, and can you give example of getting power equivalent to spells earlier. Without examples it is hard to see the grounds for your argument. Well unless you give a list of problem powers that we can find equivalents to this debate might go on for a little while. I will how ever point out a Power that is needlessly weaker then its spell Equivalents. Astral Construct = Any Summon ever. Why is Astral Construct weaker when its equal to any summon ever? Well its the stupid one Astral Construct at a time rule, which was introduce with Complete Psionics. Summons don't have that limit and can produce more then one creature at a time if needed.
RadicalTaoist 04-02-08, 11:49 AM	Mind you, in solidarity with Titanium Dragon, he is mentioning the book with the second-most broken psionic effects in it (after Races of Destiny -- note that Complete Psionic's adjustment to Anticipatory Strike prevents you from using it and Synchronicity to turnjack someone). The problem is, he's not looking at the right power to illustrate his point, as CalronMoonflower mentions (Sense Danger isn't really all that hot due to the intense price and low duration). Yeah, let's back off here. He's talking about Synchronicity. Next to Bestow Power, that's one thing nobody bothers to defend. Psionics isn't broken. Synchronicity is. If I had a player using that power to its full potential, I'd be tempted to bust out the Edict of Time on his ass.No you wouldn't. Or have yet to. Can't explain. Temporal Prime Directive.
Lycanthromancer 04-02-08, 01:48 PM	Summons (and especially calling effects) are also capable of granting the summoner access to numerous spells outside of his own list, all for a single spell slot. Summon nature's ally IV, for instance, can summon a unicorn with 5th level spells. In fact, a cleric, druid, or wizard is capable of healing the entire party for a single spell slot (well before mass heal), which also can be used as a mount, meatshield, and so on. Yes, astral constructs are incredibly versatile, but they're not nearly as powerful. And once you're able to pull genies out of your hat, you've essentially got access to unlimited wishes, and it's all RAW. There ARE a small number of broken powers, and we're not even going to pretend otherwise. Magic, however, has a long, LONG list of really broken stuff (even in core), and some people like to pretend it's not problematic at all (especially when they houserule magic and use that as justification). Yes, synchronicity is broken. It's also a direct port of a spell.
CrimsonDeath 04-02-08, 02:02 PM	Yes, synchronicity is broken. It's also a direct port of a spell. From what book?
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-02-08, 02:13 PM	Yes, synchronicity is broken. It's also a direct port of a spell. :emp: I sense a disturbance in the Force, as if an misinformed argument had been shattered to pieces.
Eldritch_Lord 04-02-08, 02:46 PM	:emp: I sense a disturbance in the Force, as if an misinformed argument had been shattered to pieces. I think you meant to say: [Obi-Wan]I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of Psionic haters suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I believe something wonderful has happened.[/Obi-Wan] ;)
Racinante 04-02-08, 02:55 PM	And once you're able to pull genies out of your hat, you've essentially got access to unlimited wishes, and it's all RAW. Only if you classify noble djinns as a separate creature class from djinns. Otherwise you would need to call 50 of them in order to have a realistic shot of getting three wishes. Furthemore, if you go by the strictest reading, only average members of a race can be called, and at 1% of the population, there is nothing average about a noble djinn, so they could never be called.
Fatalis_902 04-02-08, 07:34 PM	Only if you classify noble djinns as a separate creature class from djinns. Otherwise you would need to call 50 of them in order to have a realistic shot of getting three wishes. Furthemore, if you go by the strictest reading, only average members of a race can be called, and at 1% of the population, there is nothing average about a noble djinn, so they could never be called. Unless the Summon spell says no, roll to see if you get the noble. Or at least that's how I'd do it. Of course, you could always just Gate one in, and do something to force it to give you wishes. Trap the Soul, anyone?
larry_the_titan 04-02-08, 07:57 PM	Unless the Summon spell says no, roll to see if you get the noble. Or at least that's how I'd do it. Of course, you could always just Gate one in, and do something to force it to give you wishes. Trap the Soul, anyone? Candle of Invocation!!! Who needs powers when everything that you ever need is in the DMG.
CrimsonDeath 04-02-08, 07:58 PM	Unless the Summon spell says no, roll to see if you get the noble. Or at least that's how I'd do it. Of course, you could always just Gate one in, and do something to force it to give you wishes. Trap the Soul, anyone? Gate, by itself, will force the called creature to obey you if it has few enough HD. And if you're using Gate anway, you may as well call an Efreet; they all have Wishes to grant.
Fatalis_902 04-02-08, 08:15 PM	And efreeti are also genies, but my point is, it is very easy to get infinite wishes with core, just as Lycan was saying. And if this isn't good enough, then Pun-pun* is. *For those who are unaware, Pun-pun is the most powerful character ever created, a thought experiment to see how powerful a character it was possible to build using limited resources. No, I won't link you.
StruckingFuggle 04-02-08, 08:34 PM	Psions and wilders fill the arcanist role (and focused builds can handle healer past level 3) Huh, good psionic healers? How's this work? (Thus, psions tend to have lower level access to a small group of powers in exchange for never getting others. Imagine how a wizard would feel if he had to choose only ONE of buffs, mobility, blasting, summoning, divination, or enchantments, and would lose the other five?) I think it might be more accurate to say "lose some of the best spells from the other schools", since there's plenty of powers from all the disciplines (plenty of them plenty good) that any Psion, rather than their specialization, can learn, yeah? I mean, sure, there's great discipline-specific powers, and if you want to be a telepath you should be a Telepath, but it's not like there's not telepathy powers that a kineticist can't take.
Lycanthromancer 04-02-08, 08:44 PM	Egoists can take empathic transfer at 3rd level from their discipline list, and body adjustment at level 5, or they can use vigor to soak up the damage from empathic transfer as soon as they get it. Everyone else can either research empathic transfer at 3rd level, or can wait until level 5 to take it using Expanded Knowledge. (Note that vigor doesn't lessen the damage you take; it just eats up temp hp instead, so the blurb in empathic transfer doesn't apply. :P) Yes, it takes some dedication, but it can be done. Just rely on healing potions before then, unless you can convince someone else to do the healing for awhile.
Nirid 04-02-08, 09:54 PM	The psionics system (as in how the system operates from a mechanical standpoint) is more powerful then magic. Psions might get fewer powers known, but most those powers have augmentable effects that basically mean learning a low level power is like learning an entire tree of spells, at least 2, for a caster most times. Sure you have to pay for the extra omph, but it bets being stuck with dead weight spell slots you can't use or spells that just simply don't pack the punch you need when you need it too. Free scaling is nice, but most low level spells stop scaling about halfway up the bar anyway so it's an artificial choke on low level effects forcing you to use higher slots to get the greater effect. Psionics was just done better. If you didn't think it was you wouldn't like it. You'd all still be using magic. However none of those means psionics is broken. It simply is mechanically more sound then it's counterpart system. That being said. Spells themselves are more broken then powers most times and where the real brokenness of magic comes from. Some are poorly worded, others just completely vague, and some just down right crazy powerful. And of course it seems the more books come out the more powerful the effects are or they don't take into consideration effects that already exist. There are a ton of spells that should be burned and forgotten. If these broken spell effects existed as psionic powers then psionics would be just as bad as magic, possibly worse. A huge part of the balance in psionics is what effects are available in what combination and at what cost. I like psionics a lot, it was the way magic should have always worked. I'm just sad the system never got the love it deserved.
Lycanthromancer 04-02-08, 10:57 PM	The psionics system (as in how the system operates from a mechanical standpoint) is more powerful then magic.You might want to think on that statement a bit; it's simply not true. Psionics is more elegant and easier to use, and it's fairly simple to make a build that isn't a waste of time. The fact that it doesn't take a master of the system to make a decent character just means that it was well-built, while the casting system is more difficult to use, but you can attain vast amounts of power if you know what you're doing. Elegance doesn't equate to power; it just means that there's not as much disparity involved between builds. [edit] Of course, if you simply mean that the system is stronger as in 'better constructed and less likely to break,' then yes, you're 100% correct. Psions might get fewer powers known, but most those powers have augmentable effects that basically mean learning a low level power is like learning an entire tree of spells, at least 2, for a caster most times. Sure you have to pay for the extra omph, but it bets being stuck with dead weight spell slots you can't use or spells that just simply don't pack the punch you need when you need it too.Which is part of what's great about psionics; the system is robust and well-built, leading to very little in the way of dead weight. This is one reason why sorcerers are extremely inferior in comparison to a wizard; the Vancian system was designed with preparation casters in mind, not spontaneous casters. There are 9 basic summons spells for arcane casters (summon monster I - IX), each of which is a pain-in-the-arse for a sorcerer to learn, since he has to agonize on whether or not he has to keep each spell-level (do I keep my older summon spells for utility and low-level jobs, or do I get rid of them in favor of higher level versions, or do I get multiple versions of the same spell and waste spells known?) which is just horrible. Psionics is how sorcerers should've been done in the first place; not nearly as much overlap and headaches. Free scaling is nice, but most low level spells stop scaling about halfway up the bar anyway so it's an artificial choke on low level effects forcing you to use higher slots to get the greater effect. Psionics was just done better. If you didn't think it was you wouldn't like it. You'd all still be using magic. However none of those means psionics is broken. It simply is mechanically more sound then it's counterpart system.Actually, free-scaling means that the magic system is MUCH more powerful. By far. A mage spending the equivalent of 5 power points for 10d6 points of fire damage? I'd say that's considerably more powerful than spending 5 power points and getting 5d6 points of damage. The fact that some creatures are resistant or immune just means you need some backup battle plans in such a case. Agreed, psionics is simply more elegant and easier to use than Vancian spell-slots; instead of keeping tabs on every spell slot you've used, and which spells you have in those slots, and having to go through the rigamarole every day of choosing spells (I hatehatehateHATE that part), you simply wake up, meditate for a round, and BAMF, you're ready to go. You just subtract the number of power points you've used from your total, and you're ready to go. That, and you get what you pay for, instead of getting twice or even three times the oomph from the same expenditure in later levels. Psionics is fair, easy, and requires very little bookkeeping; it's the superior system in virtually every way but raw power. That being said. Spells themselves are more broken then powers most times and where the real brokenness of magic comes from. Some are poorly worded, others just completely vague, and some just down right crazy powerful. And of course it seems the more books come out the more powerful the effects are or they don't take into consideration effects that already exist. There are a ton of spells that should be burned and forgotten. If these broken spell effects existed as psionic powers then psionics would be just as bad as magic, possibly worse. A huge part of the balance in psionics is what effects are available in what combination and at what cost. I like psionics a lot, it was the way magic should have always worked. I'm just sad the system never got the love it deserved.It just wasn't built with direct damage and spontaneous casting in mind. It's clunky and outdated (and it's been this way since shortly after after other roleplaying systems came out, back in the late 70s and early 80s).
Titanium Dragon 04-03-08, 04:48 AM	I don't think anyone is arguing that psionics is MORE broken than ordinary magic. The contention is whether or not psionics is broken, and I say yes - and I think the CO boards agree with me, especially given they ranked Psions above Sorcerers in power. Taking two standard actions is quite nice, but I don't see it as overpowered. Taking two standard actions is the most broken thing in the game; there's a reason 3.0 haste was seen as so broken - because you could cast two spells per round with it up. This allows you to do the same. Psions and wilders fill the arcanist role (and focused builds can handle healer past level 3) very well, while at the same time being relatively weak compared to sorcerers and (especially) wizards. Wilders are weak compared to sorcerers (and IMO are a pretty balanced class if you don't let them learn discipline powers, as even if you do pull out the shenanigans you only have 11 powers total), but I disagree on the point of Psions; Psions are in my mind roughly equivalent in power level to Sorcerers. Sorcerers lack the abilty to do some of the stuff psions can do repeatedly, even if they do have access to some really broken stuff. Taking two standard actions is quite nice, but I don't see it as overpowered. I noticed easier that you said that you could twin Synchoicity, but two effects from the same source do not stack. Two bonuses from the same source will not stack, but that is not true of all things from the same source. And even assuming this doesn't work (and I'm pretty sure it does), you could simply Quicken Synchronicity for the same effect (though in this case, you can't chain together Twinned Synchronicities). Also your math is a bit off, you need to spend 5 power points on Sense Danger (page 106 of Magic of Eberron for those that want to know) and then another 3 on Synchoicity for this to work right. Why would you need to spend 3 points on Synchronicity? It is a 1 point power, last I checked. Luckily, barring maybe 3 or so powers in the XPH (I'm not counting CPsi here, because 80% of that book is flat-out uberborkken), psionics doesn't have nearly that level of issues. I disagree. It has Wish, which can set up all sorts of unfortunate loops (yeah, it isn't technically Wish, but it is more or less the same thing), True Mind Switch (probably the winner of the "worst thought out power ever" award, and unlike Wish the brokenness is how it is supposed to be used directly), Polymorph, and a Time Stop equivalent (even ignoring shenanigans with Synchronicity) which you gain access to at 6th level. It does have plenty of issues, but almost all of them are confined to the disciplines powers lists. The real broken power in that book is Forced Dream -- it's basically Time Regression, but a general power several levels earlier with a built-in contingency effect and a few other goodies. If that wasn't enough, we combined that with Mass Time Hop (for the long duration) and a psicrystal with readied actions to basically develop save/load mechanics for D&D (complete with knowledge that what you were planning to do was going to lead to a TPK, so you try something different on this "life"). If I had a player using that power to its full potential, I'd be tempted to bust out the Edict of Time on his ass. I dunno; on the one hand, save crystals are out and out bizzare and extremely powerful, but on the other hand I don't know that any DM would actually allow it to happen in a game; it is a level of cheese similar to the Detect City Bomb, which is to say while it is theoretically possible I'm not sure that anyone would actually allow it to occur in a real campaign. And yes, you are correct about Sense Danger not allowing you to auto-win initiative via Synchronicity; my bad. It does allow you to take two actions in the first round of combat, though, and for less than Twinning or Quickening Synchronicity and without expending your psionic focus.
Lycanthromancer 04-03-08, 09:41 AM	The thing is that with the way the game is designed (through CRs, party roles, and encounter design strategies), an arcane caster of some sort (debuffer/blaster/save-or-die/utility) is required in order to progress through the game as it was intended to be played. If you have a party with no magic users involved, it takes considerable work for the DM to rebalance every single encounter with them in mind. With everything you've said, you appear to agree that psionics, in general, is far less broken than magic, with the exception of a small handful of powers. If such is the case, it's not psionics that's broken; it's the handful of powers. Would this be a true statement, as far as you're concerned?
SupaTalka 04-03-08, 11:42 AM	The reason why Psionics is broken, at least in my experience, is the ability to over channel for a huge amount of damage to multiple targets with a ridiculously high save DC. If the Psion blows all his PP as soon as possible, he trivializes that one encounter for the day. But then, in the next encounter they're left strapped with nothing. As a DM, it's impossible to balance encounters for parties when a Psion is involved. Just my experience.
Ninja_Ferret 04-03-08, 11:54 AM	Personally with the small handful of powers out there Psions arnt broken. Even with the system they use. Yeah twin quickning that power does seem nasty but wait you have to be what level 15 before that even can happen? It also wastes all your feats up to 5th level. You also have to waist 2 feats to be able to do it. And you can only twin quicken once every other/2 rounds? (full round to focus your crystal, unless your GM States you can focus your crystal with a move action, move to focus yourself. ) Now to me this doesnt seem oh so useful though there might be a power or two that this would be great for. Now what would happen to wizards and sorcerers if you gave them "power points" to use in stead of spell slots. Lets take a look at what would happen with fire ball and compare it to a 3rd level psion power that does damage. Fire ball 5th level doing 5d6 fire for 5 PP. 20' burst Energy burst 5th level doing 5d6/energy type 5pp 40' burst. - psion power wins here Fireball 10th 10d6 Fire 5pp 20' burst Energy burst 10th 10d6 10pps +2 DC 40' burst. Here is where it evens out a lot. Yeah a 40' burst is nice but not always wanted. The 20' might just be needed to hit the right targets without hitting your own. 10pps to do something a 5pp fire ball would be doing anyways. Now while your Wizard is saving a lot on pps compaired to the Psion. They have that over the psion so they can cast other powers. Now lets look at a broken nasty high level wizard/sorcerer spell. Time stop. Thats what 1d4+1 actions you can preform So thats what 1d4+1 delayed blast fireballs going off on someone . Nope not powerfull at all. Now throw on the Magic system of psions ontop of that. Defently not over powered.
Nirid 04-03-08, 11:54 AM	You might want to think on that statement a bit; it's simply not true. Psionics is more elegant and easier to use, and it's fairly simple to make a build that isn't a waste of time. The fact that it doesn't take a master of the system to make a decent character just means that it was well-built, while the casting system is more difficult to use, but you can attain vast amounts of power if you know what you're doing. Elegance doesn't equate to power; it just means that there's not as much disparity involved between builds. [edit] Of course, if you simply mean that the system is stronger as in 'better constructed and less likely to break,' then yes, you're 100% correct. When I say powerful that's what I mean. The system is more versatile, simpler, easier to actually use, and more sound. Elegence may not equate to power, but power doesn't nessecarily mean pwnge. I'm using in the sense of overall strength. There are things you can do with the psionics system that magic simply can't touch. Oh you want energy resistance right now but didn't prepare it quickened? That's ok just go ahead and pay now. Is that a Red dragon, I thought it was going to be blue. No worries energy ray cold it is! Psionics is dotted with little joys like that. The mechanics that support psionic powers are stronger. See below about psionics and broken. Which is part of what's great about psionics; the system is robust and well-built, leading to very little in the way of dead weight. Which is another reason the psionics system (again the actual mechanics) is more powerful then magic. There is almost no waste, built in character resets should you need them, great feats, little extras, and fewer agonzing choices. The psionic system rocks. This is one reason why sorcerers are extremely inferior in comparison to a wizard; the Vancian system was designed with preparation casters in mind, not spontaneous casters. There are 9 basic summons spells for arcane casters (summon monster I - IX), each of which is a pain-in-the-arse for a sorcerer to learn, since he has to agonize on whether or not he has to keep each spell-level (do I keep my older summon spells for utility and low-level jobs, or do I get rid of them in favor of higher level versions, or do I get multiple versions of the same spell and waste spells known?) which is just horrible. Psionics is how sorcerers should've been done in the first place; not nearly as much overlap and headaches. I disagree if only because I think all magic should have used the psionics system Actually, free-scaling means that the magic system is MUCH more powerful. By far. A mage spending the equivalent of 5 power points for 10d6 points of fire damage? I'd say that's considerably more powerful than spending 5 power points and getting 5d6 points of damage. The fact that some creatures are resistant or immune just means you need some backup battle plans in such a case. Free scaling is powerful and at low levels keeps mages competative. However how many spells actually benifet from free scaling? Damage spells, some buff spells, dispels, and a couple debuffs are the big contenders. There are handful of others that scale. Many of these scaling spells also stop short of the level cap. A ton of great spells don't scale at all. You get them and they are static. To get upgrades you have to spend higher slots. Dim Door, Touch of Idoicy, Summon Monster (Any), Fly, Conj. Wall spells, pretty much any save or suck, wall of force, charms, etc. Certainly free scaling is a big part of the magic system, but its not this unholy beast that stomps psionics in to the ground. And the fact that a psion has to spend no additional resources against a fire resistant foe is a big plus. He is already prepared. He can also gauge his power far more effectively. Sure a mage gets more pp per effect then a psion. The psion gets a more flexible use of power (worth something) and the ability to control his pp use. He doesn't always have to use the fully augmented version. If you are swarmed by goblins and the mage fireballs it's most likely overkill. Sure he gets them, but he gets no bonus for the fact that he has the equivalent of 10pp of damage. The psion can gauge their effect and scale it down to avoid wasting power. Agreed, psionics is simply more elegant and easier to use than Vancian spell-slots; instead of keeping tabs on every spell slot you've used, and which spells you have in those slots, and having to go through the rigamarole every day of choosing spells (I hatehatehateHATE that part), you simply wake up, meditate for a round, and BAMF, you're ready to go. You just subtract the number of power points you've used from your total, and you're ready to go. That, and you get what you pay for, instead of getting twice or even three times the oomph from the same expenditure in later levels. Psionics is fair, easy, and requires very little bookkeeping; it's the superior system in virtually every way but raw power. I know of no spell that scales to 3 times it's minimum caster level effect, except scorching ray but it has other drawbacks (3 attacks and 3 resists). I completely agree psionics (the system) is completely better then the magic system in all ways. That makes it more powerful, though not broken. Take a psion and give it spells. Go into the PHB and port spells into powers for the psion list. See how long it stays "balanced". It's the spells that break magic, not the system that supports them. You have to seperate the two. My stance is the system that supports psionics is the stronger system but the effects it gets are balanced within it. It just wasn't built with direct damage and spontaneous casting in mind. It's clunky and outdated (and it's been this way since shortly after after other roleplaying systems came out, back in the late 70s and early 80s). Yes the system fails, badly.
RadicalTaoist 04-03-08, 11:59 AM	Heh. Just a second; I'll find the threads with the damage comparisons and nova control tactics that show how overrated Overchannel is. In the meanwhile, Talka, I recommend you to the Myth thread (Myth 22). If you're referring to Energy Missile, though...
Lycanthromancer 04-03-08, 12:18 PM	The reason why Psionics is broken, at least in my experience, is the ability to over channel for a huge amount of damage to multiple targets with a ridiculously high save DC.You can get a few DC boosters, but I betcha I can make a wizard's much higher. I demonstrated in another thread how you can start with a wizard whose starting Int roll is 8, and still have a 44 Int before level 20, without going outside of core, and I really didn't even try that hard. If the Psion blows all his PP as soon as possible, he trivializes that one encounter for the day. But then, in the next encounter they're left strapped with nothing.Wizards do it better, I'm afraid; they have more save-or-dies, and a lot of no-save-and-still-dies, and the number of equivalent power points they have is far above that of any psion at any level (convert free-scaling spells to the 1d6=1pp dynamic to see this for yourself; a level 20 wizard with ~ 24 or so Int has more than 800 power points to blow, not including cantrips). And that's just in core. A wizard and psion can both nova at the same rate, using equivalent abilities, and the wizard will still have more than half his spell slots left after the psion runs dry. Psions at that level have about a bit more than 400 power points (with 24 Int); wizards have the equivalent of well over 800. As a DM, it's impossible to balance encounters for parties when a Psion is involved. Just my experience.Can I assume you mean 'nova' here? Blowing all of your resources on one encounter? All you have to do is follow the guidelines already stated in the core rule books (around 4 encounters, or at least the threat of 4 encounters, per day). The first time the psion novas without excessive reason (ie, to avoid a TPK), throw a few more encounters at him. He'll not only feel useless, but he'll likely be killed, since he's nothing more than a glorified commoner with a crossbow at that point. That's what the rules call for, after all, RAW. In other words, if the player wastes all of his resources for the day, that's his problem. Wizards and other Vancian casters have ridiculously prevalent ways of saving spell slots that psionicists just don't have. Rings of wizardry, and rods of absorption, just two name a couple. Wizards and sorcerers also have spells that synchronize much better than the psion's powers do, which allows you to easily exploit RAW loopholes to do ridiculous stunts (and outside of core is even worse). This doesn't include what a clever or even canny player can do with single spells. I wouldn't even bring this up, given what I said earlier regarding synchronicity and a few other powers being undeniably broken, rather than the whole system, but so many spells are utterly borked that it's a pandemic, system-wide problem. See my sig for details.
Lycanthromancer 04-03-08, 12:51 PM	Fire ball 5th level doing 5d6 fire for 5 PP. 20' burst Energy burst 5th level doing 5d6/energy type 5pp 40' burst. - psion power wins here Fireball 10th 10d6 Fire 5pp 20' burst Energy burst 10th 10d6 10pps +2 DC 40' burst. Here is where it evens out a lot. Yeah a 40' burst is nice but not always wanted. The 20' might just be needed to hit the right targets without hitting your own. 10pps to do something a 5pp fire ball would be doing anyways.You might want to look again. Energy burst also is incapable of being directed anywhere; the 40 ft burst is centered on the manifester, which means everyone around you gets fried. I'd rather be able to aim at a distant point in space than have to run up to bad guys (with no allies within 40 ft to protect me), unless I'm designed as a gish or I want to dimension door/swap/etc the heck out of there when I'm done.
PhaedrusXY 04-03-08, 02:28 PM	WTF, isn't there a 50 page long thread stickied at the top of the forum for this crap? Why do we need another one? Learn some patience, and go read through that first, instead of rehashing the same old arguments that have been beaten to death repeatedly.
Zardnaar 04-03-08, 02:31 PM	You can get a few DC boosters, but I betcha I can make a wizard's much higher. I demonstrated in another thread how you can start with a wizard whose starting Int roll is 8, and still have a 44 Int before level 20, without going outside of core, and I really didn't even try that hard. Wizards do it better, I'm afraid; they have more save-or-dies, and a lot of no-save-and-still-dies, and the number of equivalent power points they have is far above that of any psion at any level (convert free-scaling spells to the 1d6=1pp dynamic to see this for yourself; a level 20 wizard with ~ 24 or so Int has more than 800 power points to blow, not including cantrips). And that's just in core. A wizard and psion can both nova at the same rate, using equivalent abilities, and the wizard will still have more than half his spell slots left after the psion runs dry. Psions at that level have about a bit more than 400 power points (with 24 Int); wizards have the equivalent of well over 800. Can I assume you mean 'nova' here? Blowing all of your resources on one encounter? All you have to do is follow the guidelines already stated in the core rule books (around 4 encounters, or at least the threat of 4 encounters, per day). The first time the psion novas without excessive reason (ie, to avoid a TPK), throw a few more encounters at him. He'll not only feel useless, but he'll likely be killed, since he's nothing more than a glorified commoner with a crossbow at that point. That's what the rules call for, after all, RAW. In other words, if the player wastes all of his resources for the day, that's his problem. Wizards and other Vancian casters have ridiculously prevalent ways of saving spell slots that psionicists just don't have. Rings of wizardry, and rods of absorption, just two name a couple. Wizards and sorcerers also have spells that synchronize much better than the psion's powers do, which allows you to easily exploit RAW loopholes to do ridiculous stunts (and outside of core is even worse). This doesn't include what a clever or even canny player can do with single spells. I wouldn't even bring this up, given what I said earlier regarding synchronicity and a few other powers being undeniably broken, rather than the whole system, but so many spells are utterly borked that it's a pandemic, system-wide problem. See my sig for details. In theory yes in reality the Psion is better at level 20 for this. The wizard gets 4 level 9 spells or so while the Psion can manifest his at least 20 times. Guess what one I would rather do. The wiz20 is still better due to stupid spells even in core (shapechange, gate etc). Psionics isn't more powerful than magic-I don't think anyone is arguing that. Psion is better than the wizard as a class (wizzie has more powerful effects). But as a DM Psionics is overpowered and at certain levels is better than magic (lvl 1-8 or so). At high levels you're probably going to have more problems as a DM due to Psionics than magic as you kinda know what to expect with magic. Psions effectivly get around 7 bonus feats- silent spell, still spell, eschew components, and energy substitution X4 when compared to a normal spellcaster. In theory magic is more powerful, in game Psions argueably are as most games don't use all these splatbooks to acess all the broken spells. Theres some nutty stuff in the core rules but most of it is quite high in level so it isn't used most of the time. I still allow Psionics though as magic is more broken ut so is psionics. Sometimes magic is better, other times psionics is. Its overpowered no doubt in my mind, I thiknk the main problem is alot of people perieve it to be broken and ban it from their games which rubs psi lovers the wrong way. The defenders of psionics always compare it to magic. Try comparing it to everything else for a change. Most psi classes are weak though with only the Psion and Psychic Warrior being good.
RadicalTaoist 04-03-08, 03:29 PM	Ahh, found it. Check posts 11 and 32
Lycanthromancer 04-03-08, 03:41 PM	In theory yes in reality the Psion is better at level 20 for this. The wizard gets 4 level 9 spells or so while the Psion can manifest his at least 20 times. Guess what one I would rather do. The wiz20 is still better due to stupid spells even in core (shapechange, gate etc).9th level spells are far more powerful, on average, than 9th level powers. In fact, most 8th and 7th (and even some 2nd and 1st, if you know what you're doing) level spells are just as powerful as the 9th level ones are at that level. I might be able to pull off a number of powerful tricks with my psion, but it's nothing compared to what a caster who thinks with his head can do with even low level spells. That's not to say that you can't get some oomph out of powers, but you have to pay for them (which is why he gets so many power points at later levels - and it's still not that much). Psionics isn't more powerful than magic-I don't think anyone is arguing that. Psion is better than the wizard as a class (wizzie has more powerful effects). But as a DM Psionics is overpowered and at certain levels is better than magic (lvl 1-8 or so). At high levels you're probably going to have more problems as a DM due to Psionics than magic as you kinda know what to expect with magic.You do realize that at levels 1-8, wizards are one of the weakest classes in the game, right? Those are the levels when casters are most likely to die, and the ones at which the martial classes are far more powerful than them (generally). Having a caster class that is on par with the martial classes for the first portion of the game, while retaining some parity with them later (because it's not nearly as powerful later on) is a good thing. It might not be perfect, but it's far closer than the core classes are, I'd say. If you balance it with ToB classes, it's near-perfect, all the way up the level-ladder. And as for psionics having unexpected effects, you're kidding, right? Psions have very few powers that they have access to (fewer powers in the XPH than wizard/sorcerer-only spells in the PHB), and that's not even counting splatbooks (which contain myriad hundreds, if not thousands of spells). Plus, if you keep tabs on the psion's/wilder's/psychic warrior's power list, you know what they're capable of, and they just can't pull any surprises on you. A wizard (or cleric, or druid, or artificer) can know thousands of spells, and can change them in and out every single day. Sometimes more than once, if he takes 15 minutes to prepare a spell. Yesterday, the psion couldn't manifest time hop. Because he still has the same limited power list, he can't today, either. Yesterday, the wizard couldn't cast plane shift. Today...well, who knows? Psions effectivly get around 7 bonus feats- silent spell, still spell, eschew components, and energy substitution X4 when compared to a normal spellcaster. In theory magic is more powerful, in game Psions argueably are as most games don't use all these splatbooks to acess all the broken spells. Theres some nutty stuff in the core rules but most of it is quite high in level so it isn't used most of the time.These features are paid for in other ways, when they actually matter at all. Still Spell and Silent Spell are generally considered sub-par feats, as they tend to not come into play except for very specific circumstances. Perhaps if you rolled them into a single feat, with a +1 spell-level adjustment, it might be worth taking, but even then it's debatable, and it's still only useful for spells that require those V and S components. Most spells that these feats would be useful for (such as dimension door for escaping grapples) don't require them anyway. Cheap spell components almost never come into play in the vast majority of games; it's too much of a pain to keep tabs on, and the caster is automatically assumed to have all of his components with him anyway; pulling out the spell components is part of the casting of the spell (essentially a free action). This is (almost) a non-issue, really. As far as Energy Substitution goes, direct-damage is widely considered to be less-than-optimal for most casting classes, especially since save-or-dies, save-or-sucks, and no-save-and-still-dies are so prevalent in core magic. I can expend 5 spells to whittle down a monster's HP, or I can expend one and make it A.) totally suck, or B.) totally die. Direct damage simply isn't economical for arcane casters, and is a bad strategy for them to employ. Psions excel in this area, and do better than casters do; this isn't a bad thing, however. If psionics did absolutely nothing better than casters do, why even bother having the system at all? You didn't mention it here, but I will: armor. Psionicists can wear armor without problems, so long as they're proficient. This is pretty much a non-issue too, since wizards, sorcerers, and a micro-handful of other classes are the only ones to whom arcane spell failure applies. Frankly, if you removed the ASF from those classes completely, it still wouldn't affect their power level at all. Clerics and druids can wear armor, too, and they're as powerful as the wizard is, spellcasting-wise, and can tank as well as a raging barbarian can (or better). All of these advantages are paid for in several ways, all of which makes psions and their manifesting brethren less able than arcanists in certain areas. Psionicists have a very small number of powers they can know; each one tends to be more flexible than a corresponding spell, but you can still only know so many. You are also restricted in which powers you can learn, without spending extra resources to get them (ie, feats, XP for research, or massive amounts of money for psychic chirurgery). Wizards can get any spell they want, so long as they have a way to acquire it. The secret page spell even allows them to transcribe it for free. Metapsionics, while being extraordinarily flexible in their application, are also very, VERY limited. You can only apply a single metapsionic effect to any power at a time, unless you want to expend 2 feats to apply a maximum of 2 effects to a single power, and you have to spend a full-round action and a Concentration check (which provokes AoOs) to be able to do it again (taking yet ANOTHER feat will lower that to a move action). Wizards can apply an infinite number of metamagic effects to their spells, so long as they have spell-slots of the correct level to burn, which is easy enough to manage with other feats (which are definitely worthwhile for the right builds). Psionicists can't get this option until epic levels. Arcanists get familiars as a class feature as well as a bonus feat (Scribe Scroll). Manifesters have to spend a feat on theirs (though they do get one bonus feat that can be anything they want). Arcanists get dozens of spells in every supplement that comes out; psions, only one or two powers, if they're lucky. Arcanists get free scaling with their spell-slots. A 10th level wizard gets an extra 5d6 points of damage out of his 3rd level spell slots, when compared to a psion spending 5 power points (the equivalent of a 3rd level slot) to manifest an equivalent power. Arcane spells are, in most cases, far more powerful than powers, even when both are supposed to do the same things. This isn't always the case, but it happens frequently enough that it's noticeable. Spellcasters have easy ways of making themselves invulnerable simply by avoiding the effects in question completely, whereas psionic characters have more of a 'take the hit like a man' philosophy. And so on. I still allow Psionics though as magic is more broken but so is psionics. Sometimes magic is better, other times psionics is. Its overpowered no doubt in my mind, I thiknk the main problem is alot of people perieve it to be broken and ban it from their games which rubs psi lovers the wrong way. The defenders of psionics always compare it to magic. Try comparing it to everything else for a change. Most psi classes are weak though with only the Psion and Psychic Warrior being good.Powerful does not equate to broken. The fact that most martial classes are so weak is just as much of a problem as the casters being strong. WotC decided to rectify this situation not by nerfing casters, but by powering up the martial characters. See Tome of Battle for details.
cnahumck 04-03-08, 04:01 PM	So here is question to put out there for people, are there benifits to mixing the two systems? How broken would you concider a dual caster/manifester, and would things like the Epic PrC's from the Darksun campaign be worth advancing towards? They loose out on both CL and ML, but is it worth it for the other things that they can do? Personally, I think so, but I haven't tried to abuse it too much. And I am wondering from a core only (plus Darksun material of course) perspective.
Ninja_Ferret 04-03-08, 04:17 PM	aahhh forgot that it was centered on the caster. >.< Which makes it even harder for a cleric type to get to him if he charges headlong into a battle then releases that spell. A few things that i have seen that can "ballance" if not make people a little happy is. Put the damage limit up on abilities like there are on spells. 1st level spells 5 dice 2nd 10 and so forth? That or add in the Spell point system from I believe Unearthed arcana.
InkBlot 04-03-08, 04:39 PM	So here is question to put out there for people, are there benifits to mixing the two systems? How broken would you concider a dual caster/manifester, and would things like the Epic PrC's from the Darksun campaign be worth advancing towards? They loose out on both CL and ML, but is it worth it for the other things that they can do? Personally, I think so, but I haven't tried to abuse it too much. And I am wondering from a core only (plus Darksun material of course) perspective. You mean the Cerebramancer? It's in the back of your XPH. The general consensus (as much as there ever is one) is that it's less powerful than an average Wizard build (Wiz5/PrCX/PrCY), or an average Psion build (Psion20). However, it has good Int synergy and is very versatile, though not quite as versatile as a Mystic Theurge or Psychic Theurge (since arcane spells have more overlap with psion powers than with divine spells). Powerful does not equate to broken. The fact that most martial classes are so weak is just as much of a problem as the casters being strong. WotC decided to rectify this situation not by nerfing casters, but by powering up the martial characters. See Tome of Battle for details. The Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords classes aren't actually more powerful than previous melee classes. Perhaps more powerful than the Fighter, but that's no accomplishment. What the ToB classes are is a little more versatile, a lot more fun, and able to breath life into formerly dead-on-arrival character concepts. Before ToB, the Equipment And Combat board used to constantly get threads asking "is there any way to throw an enemy," "how do you make a duelist who doesn't suck," "is it possible to move and attack with two weapons," "what kind of bonuses to I get if I jump up before attacking," "are there any combat uses for sense motive," and "how do you make a monk who throw hadoukens?" Not to mention all the custom tanking or martial artist classes on the Classes And Prestige Classes board. Before ToB, combat for melee characters was all "I charge, I full attack, I full attack, I full attack." If you wanted to do cool things then it was up to you to come up with creative ways to describe your full attack, but no matter how well you described it, the game never rewards you. A full attack is a full attack whether you described it as dodging past your foe's reach to penatrate his defensive with a barrage of strikes so fast that onlookers can't see your blade, or as just standing there slugging away. Meanwhile, for casters it was "I put up a wall of force, I fly up over the battlefield, I cast scorching ray at those two guys, that guy has to make a will save or be paralyzed." You describe each of your magical attacks as having a radically different affect, and they do! Who's having more fun there? Now, playing a ToB character in combat is more like "I enter the Pearl Of Black Doubt stance and move and attack, I hit him with Mountain Hammer strike, I counter attack with Scorpion Parry, I switch to Punishing Stance and full attack, I full attack and use Lion's Roar boost." Not only does ToB give melee guys the ability to do something interesting every turn, it actively prevents you from using the same maneuver over and over again. Sorry for getting off topic.
Lycanthromancer 04-03-08, 04:47 PM	I'd say it powers up meleers in several ways, such as allowing them to target more than AC, granting others actions and awesome buffs, granting AoEs, damaging without an attack roll, and so on. Seems to me like a major upgrade, really.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-03-08, 04:53 PM	I'd say it powers up meleers in several ways, such as allowing them to target more than AC, granting others actions and awesome buffs, granting AoEs, damaging without an attack roll, and so on. Seems to me like a major upgrade, really. Buffs only go for one round, and the new mechanics aren't more powerful than a full-attack.
RadicalTaoist 04-03-08, 06:42 PM	The power in melee was always getting morphed into something uber and breaking face. This is why a Druid can still stomp a martial adept. The ToB makes options available. In a sense it's better than core melee in the same way Psionics is better than core casting - the system is more robust and versatile, although the raw power output is lower. (The difference between the raw power of a Barbarian and Warblade is considerably lower than the difference in raw power between a Wizard and Psion, mind you.)
Eldritch_Lord 04-03-08, 07:30 PM	Buffs only go for one round, and the new mechanics aren't more powerful than a full-attack. Power isn't measured just in damage output. The ability to boost your saves, the ability to move farther and/or more often, the ability to counter attacks...all those are power. They aren't all more damaging than a full attack, but more powerful...probably.
InkBlot 04-03-08, 07:35 PM	I'd say it powers up meleers in several ways, such as allowing them to target more than AC, granting others actions and awesome buffs, granting AoEs, damaging without an attack roll, and so on. That's kind of what I meant when I said ToB makes melee guys a little more versatile. But the power of melee characters is measured in how effective they are at draining enemy HP, and ToB doesn't increase their effectiveness in that capacity.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-03-08, 07:52 PM	Power isn't measured just in damage output. The ability to boost your saves, the ability to move farther and/or more often, the ability to counter attacks...all those are power. They aren't all more damaging than a full attack, but more powerful...probably.I totally agree with you, but my comment was more directed to the damage output of martial adepts. All these things you mentionned may be a bit stronger than your average ''sword-and-board meleeist'', but they truly are more pleasant to play and design.
CrimsonDeath 04-03-08, 08:12 PM	That's kind of what I meant when I said ToB makes melee guys a little more versatile. But the power of melee characters is measured in how effective they are at draining enemy HP, and ToB doesn't increase their effectiveness in that capacity. The effectiveness of a melee combatant isn't necessarily measured solely in damage output. One of the two most powerful Fighter 20 builds to come out of the CharOp board is the Lockdown spiked-chain tripper. A Setting Sun Swordsage, Devoted Spirit Crusader, or White Raven Warblade could be a very powerful support character without an especially impressive damage output.
Eldritch_Lord 04-03-08, 09:34 PM	The effectiveness of a melee combatant isn't necessarily measured solely in damage output. One of the two most powerful Fighter 20 builds to come out of the CharOp board is the Lockdown spiked-chain tripper. A Setting Sun Swordsage, Devoted Spirit Crusader, or White Raven Warblade could be a very powerful support character without an especially impressive damage output. Agreed. Even without particular builds, you have to remember that things like trip, bull rush, sunder, and so forth are just as tactically valid as straight damage is. Anything that improves those options (Comet Throw etc.), gives more options (Shadow Blink etc.), covers a weakness (Moment of Perfect Mind etc.), or otherwise can be just as valuable to a melee character as something that increases damage or number of attacks.
StruckingFuggle 04-03-08, 11:03 PM	Blasphemy! *casts teleport on the topic* Speaking of Power, isn't it the case that an Adept can move and initiate a standard action strike to deal damage comparable to a full attack? Given the mobility increase here, isn't this an increase in power over Core Melee?
Kattam 04-03-08, 11:36 PM	But can't psionic characters burn a candle of invocation? Overpoworzed!! (/sarcasm) :rolleyes:
Zardnaar 04-04-08, 12:20 AM	So here is question to put out there for people, are there benifits to mixing the two systems? How broken would you concider a dual caster/manifester, and would things like the Epic PrC's from the Darksun campaign be worth advancing towards? They loose out on both CL and ML, but is it worth it for the other things that they can do? Personally, I think so, but I haven't tried to abuse it too much. And I am wondering from a core only (plus Darksun material of course) perspective. Depends how easy it is to qualify for them. I think the Cerebremancer is better than the Mystic Theurge as Wizzies ans Psions both have int as a requirement but its still a weak PrC. Better off with a single classed wizard/psoin. As written in the epic levels you're still better off with a single classed wizz/psion rather than a Athasian Dragon or Avangion PrC. Actually epic games aren't much fun regardless (been there done that lvl 20-30). From the DM's point of view PSionics is slightly harder to balence than magic because of the montsers in the MM have elemental immunities etc Psions can bypass very easily let alone if you're using the psionics is different rule as virtually no monsters have PR to balence it out.
Lycanthromancer 04-04-08, 12:23 AM	From the DM's point of view PSionics is slightly harder to balence than magic because of the montsers in the MM have elemental immunities etc Psions can bypass very easily let alone if you're using the psionics is different rule as virtually no monsters have PR to balence it out.Yes, using a variant rule widely considered to be utterly broken is not a good idea if you're at all concerned about balance.
MagickHobo 04-04-08, 12:38 AM	I think the argument here is that Psionics is broken in general, not that it's more broken than normal magic. Weaker than magic, but still busted. *Watches topic get whisked away by magic* Oh consarnit! *scrys the topic and follows to it's new location* Maybe youse all could discuss the power of psionics in relation to ToB characters? Or warlocks, or rogues... you know, those classes that ARE balanced as opposed to more broken ones. My opinion? ToB is balanced very well, because even if you 'mess up' and grab Toughness for all your feats you still won't suck too hard. On the other side, if you go all out and optimize to all nine layers of hell a warblade still won't wave his hand and say "I win!" like a wizard or cleric can. That's kind of how I feel about psionics right now, except that they CAN say "I win!", unless the wizard comes back with "Dude, no you don't" and pulls that mess in Lyco's post. I can't mark anything specific about Psions though, since I don't have the book. Hmmm. Think of it this way, if psionics was the original, core magic system, (no wizards or sorcs) would everything be rainbows and puppy dogs, or would there still be a glaring disparity in power? I got no clue, but it'll help me decide if i want XPH or that one magic-less varient book (Iron Heroes?).
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-04-08, 01:04 AM	I got no clue, but it'll help me decide if i want XPH or that one magic-less varient book (Iron Heroes?). Get the two of them. Iron Heroes is awesome. Characters are a little stronger than the standard meleeist, while psionicists are a bit weaker than regular arcanists. The two groups kinda gets ''equals''. The Book of Iron Might is awesome too.
CrimsonDeath 04-04-08, 03:39 AM	The reason why Psionics is broken, at least in my experience, is the ability to over channel for a huge amount of damage to multiple targets with a ridiculously high save DC. If the Psion blows all his PP as soon as possible, he trivializes that one encounter for the day. But then, in the next encounter they're left strapped with nothing. As a DM, it's impossible to balance encounters for parties when a Psion is involved. Just my experience. In my opinion, this isn't the DM's problem. It's the player's responsibility to budget his character's resources so that he has something left over for subsequent encounters. And if the campaign starts at low levels, he'll learn how to budget his PP early on, when a crossbow will still allow him to contribute meaningfully after he runs out.
larry_the_titan 04-04-08, 06:51 AM	Hmmm. Think of it this way, if psionics was the original, core magic system, (no wizards or sorcs) would everything be rainbows and puppy dogs, or would there still be a glaring disparity in power? I got no clue, but it'll help me decide if i want XPH or that one magic-less varient book (Iron Heroes?). Don't buy the XPH. Psionics are now part of the SRD and can be found there. Here is a link; http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 Not owning the book is no longer a good excuse for not know the Psionics System.
Zardnaar 04-04-08, 07:12 AM	Yes, using a variant rule widely considered to be utterly broken is not a good idea if you're at all concerned about balance. I know but he asked a specific question about rules varients where the psionics is different rule is the default rule setting. I don't use it.
cnahumck 04-04-08, 05:15 PM	Actually, athas.org uses magic/psionic transparancy rules. there is an article on the site titled "magic and psionics are related" that deals with an interesting way to have the two interact. My question, which I have now posted elsewhere, is to see what people thought of those rules who don't frequent the DS boards.
MagickHobo 04-04-08, 11:47 PM	Don't buy the XPH. Psionics are now part of the SRD and can be found there. Here is a link; http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 Not owning the book is no longer a good excuse for not know the Psionics System. :rolleyes: Well what about never wanting to play a psion? Or never having a player who wanted to? 'Cause that's my excuse. All these debates I've read always compare powers to spells and yeah, almost always spells come out on top. Now compare em to the warblade, the rogue, and the favored soul. I've never seen that comparison, and I'd like to. I mean, sure, psionics aren't as broken as magic, but scoring a 9.8 on the 'B0rk3D!!!' scale isn't that different from scoring a 10... Oh, and before someone turns the phrase "that's comparing apples to oranges", *points at every fighter thread ever*.
CrimsonDeath 04-05-08, 12:12 AM	I've seen the Psychic Warrior compared to the Warblade, and I believe they came out roughly even. I believe the Soulknife is also roughly comparable to the Monk.
Eldritch_Lord 04-05-08, 01:52 PM	I've seen the Psychic Warrior compared to the Warblade, and I believe they came out roughly even. I believe the Soulknife is also roughly comparable to the Monk. I'd agree with the second one, but I'd say Psychic Warrior is better compared to the Swordsage, given the 3/4 BAB and the Swordsage's disciplines' focus on supernatural buffs/boosts (Shadow Hand shadow jaunt ~ psionic dimension door, Desert Wind burning blade ~ claws of energy, etc.) Either way, the Psychic Warrior comes out around ToB power level. In regards to Psion and Wilder: All these debates I've read always compare powers to spells and yeah, almost always spells come out on top. Now compare em to the warblade, the rogue, and the favored soul. I've never seen that comparison, and I'd like to. I mean, sure, psionics aren't as broken as magic, but scoring a 9.8 on the 'B0rk3D!!!' scale isn't that different from scoring a 10... Let's try the Wilder first. This will be a bit subjective, so feel free to debate a particular point. HD Wilder--d6 FS--d8 Winner: FS BAB Wilder--3/4 FS--3/4 Winner: Neither Saves Wilder--Good Will FS--Good F/R/W Winner: FS Skill Points Wilder--4+Int FS--2+Int Winner: Wilder Casting Wilder--Powers as Psion FS--Spells as Cleric Winner: FS Casting Level Wilder--9th level, full ML FS--9th level, full CL Winner: Neither Casting Stats Wilder--Cha FS--Int + Cha Winner: Wilder Defenses Wilder--Volatile Mind, Elude Touch FS--Energy resistances Winner: FS Miscellaneous Wilder--Wild Surge + Surging Euphoria FS--Deity's Weapon + Wings Winner: Wilder Totals come out to 4-3 in favor of the FS, though it could be either 5-2 FS or 4-3 Wilder based on how you rate their defenses and miscellaneous features. Whether you agree with my rating of defense and misc. or not, that's very close, and 2/3 of the time the FS comes out on top; I'd say that makes the Wilder pretty balanced. And now the Psion: HD Psion--d4 FS--d8 Winner: FS BAB Psion--1/2 FS--3/4 Winner: FS Saves Psion--Good Will FS--Good F/R/W Winner: FS Skill Points Psion--2+Int FS--2+Int Winner: Neither Casting Psion--Powers as Psion FS--Spells as Cleric Winner: FS Casting Level Psion--9th level, full ML FS--9th level, full CL Winner: Neither Casting Stats Psion--Int FS--Int + Cha Winner: Psion Defenses Psion--None FS--Energy resistances Winner: FS Miscellaneous Psion--5 bonus psionic feats FS--Deity's Weapon + Wings Winner: Psion Totals come out to 5-2 in favor of the FS, though it could be 6-1 FS based on how you rate psionic feats. The FS always comes out on top; I'd say that makes the Psion pretty balanced as well. How's that look, MagickHobo? Would you say that's a fair comparison?
PhaedrusXY 04-05-08, 07:15 PM	:rolleyes: Well what about never wanting to play a psion? Or never having a player who wanted to? 'Cause that's my excuse.They why do you post in this forum?
Tsuul 04-06-08, 04:14 AM	Hobos wander, that's what they do. This one is magickal.
CrimsonDeath 04-06-08, 06:28 AM	I wonder if there's a PsionickHobo?
Eldritch_Lord 04-06-08, 11:15 AM	I wonder if there's a PsionickHobo? Probably the same person--unless you're using the Psionick is Different variant, which we all know is broken.
InkBlot 04-06-08, 11:34 AM	In regards to Psion and Wilder (compared to Favored Soul) ... You left out Powers/Spell Known. The Favored Soul knows more spells of just her three highest spell levels than a Wilder knows ever. The gulf is especially dramatic at 1st level, where a Favored Soul knows four orisons and three 1st level spells, but a Wilder knows only one 1st level power. Favored Souls know 70 spells in total, including orisons. That's almost double the amount a Psion knows (36). I included orisons in the tally, even though many people disregard them, because affects such as detect magic and light are 1st level powers for Psions. Even if you only consider the top 3 levels of spells viable for offense, their other 55 spells (still 19 more than a Psion knows) give them a breadth of utility and buffs which a Psion can't easily match.
Eldritch_Lord 04-06-08, 08:53 PM	You left out Powers/Spell Known. The Favored Soul knows more spells of just her three highest spell levels than a Wilder knows ever. The gulf is especially dramatic at 1st level, where a Favored Soul knows four orisons and three 1st level spells, but a Wilder knows only one 1st level power. Favored Souls know 70 spells in total, including orisons. That's almost double the amount a Psion knows (36). I included orisons in the tally, even though many people disregard them, because affects such as detect magic and light are 1st level powers for Psions. Even if you only consider the top 3 levels of spells viable for offense, their other 55 spells (still 19 more than a Psion knows) give them a breadth of utility and buffs which a Psion can't easily match. I realize I left that out, but (A) I thought it was already taken for granted around here that a psionic character knows fewer powers than any caster and (B) since some powers can substitute for several different spells, like astral construct for the summon monster I-IX line or the energy X for comparable spells, I didn't want to get into how many powers known equal how many spells known and which are equivalent and all that. I figured that if I tried to equate multi-use powers with spells MagickHobo or someone else would call shenanigans and think it was biased. Even given that, it still comes out in favor of the FS, so that means it's 2/3 win, 1/3 tie for the FS-Wilder comparison and a more overwhelming victory for the FS in the FS-Psion comparison.
Eldritch_Lord 04-08-08, 06:38 PM	Well, since MagickHobo wanted to see the comparison, might as well :bump: this for him.