Are wilders worth playing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are wilders worth playing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Used-As-A-Shield
10-20-07, 02:20 PM i know they were worthless a while back, but did the wilder feats in Complete Psionic make them playable?
Lycanthromancer
10-20-07, 02:27 PM Let's just say...they made them suck somewhat less, but didn't exactly make them wonderful. You still have to multiclass or PrC out of wilder around 11th level, else your primary class ability (wild surging) gets worse and worse and worse.

Take a look at some of the alternate wilder classes around here.
InkBlot
10-20-07, 03:43 PM They're not the worst class around. They're not as bad as a Soulknife, a Divine Mind, or a Marshal. But they're no Wizard.

The Wilder is about on par with the Warlock, I think. The Wilder is like a Warlock who trades utility for peak power. And of course the Warlock has truly infinite power while the Wilder merely has good endurance (if you look for it).

The Wilder isn't designed to fill the role of a primary caster, like a Psion, Wizard, or Cleric can. It can only fill that role through a lot of painful stretching and contorting. The Wilder is a blaster. It learns only a handful of powers (11!) and uses them better than anyone else. For most of your career you'll be stuck with the same one or two big tricks, and only two to four backup/emergency tricks.
awaken_D_M_golem
10-20-07, 04:10 PM The Wilder is about on par with the Warlock, I think. The Wilder is like a Warlock who trades utility for peak power. And of course the Warlock has truly infinite power while the Wilder merely has good endurance (if you look for it).
Amen to that.
An early Wilder's pp efficiency is by using a 1pp power, augmented ONLY by Wild Surge.
A recharge set-up on a Wilder, brings it to the Warlock in terms of power level, with different capabilities.
The Mind's Eye article, expands the powers available, to well-nigh any power you can get by your DM.
And it needs it.

But yeah, it's now very playable, so long as a Cleric and a Wizard type are around.
Could be your party's face with Rogue 1. Still want to get your 9th level power.

Have fun.
Used-As-A-Shield
10-20-07, 04:37 PM whats wrong with Divine Mind?
InkBlot
10-20-07, 05:02 PM Have you really seriously looked at it? Besides the flavor of it (which is worse than an R. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in6RZzdGki8)L. Stein novel), it only gets 3/4 BAB, worse manifesting than a Psywar, weak auras with too small a range, and no other prominent class features to speak of. It can't fulfill any role; it can't tank, it can't support, it can't skirmish, it can't skillmonkey, it can't be a primary manifester, it can't be a healer. It's not like the Bard either, where the Bard can fill any one roll for a little while at least while simultaneously giving enormous support to the party.
Used-As-A-Shield
10-20-07, 06:05 PM fair enough. i always saw it as being as close to a front-line fighter as psionics has gotten, seeing as how it can wear heavy armor. though, i suppose the ardent fills the role just as well.
InkBlot
10-20-07, 06:11 PM Psychic Warriors also have heavy armor. Add in the combat bonus feats and the better combat buff powers, and the Divine Mind simply can't compete.
Hellsbells
10-20-07, 06:42 PM I do not have any psionics books (im working on that). I no nothing of the wilder, I assumed from the name it was a psionic druid (well theme wise), could someone confirm or correct this?
InkBlot
10-20-07, 06:54 PM No, the wilder has nothing to do with revering nature. The wilder is "wilder" as in he's very willful. Wilders are most analogous to Sorcerers. Wilders tap into the unpredictable power of emotion to fuel their psionics, and are often natural-born psychics with no training. They have 3/4 BAB, only 11 powers (compared to the Psion's 34), a d6 HD, 4 skill points per level, and the ability to Surge.

Surging increases the Wilder's manifester level and provides free power points, but you have a % chance of enervation. Enervation means you fail to surge (you have to pay the power points normally and stuff), and you become dazed for one round.

edit: Check out the System Reference Document. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicWilder.html) It's no substitute for the real thing, but it can help you get a feel for how the mechanics of psionics work. Also make sure to check out the sticky threads at the top of this forum, especially the Master Index and the New Player's And DM's Guide To Psionics.
Hellsbells
10-20-07, 07:06 PM OOOOO thank you

(( darn now I need to amke one of these. ))
MnemonicSV
10-22-07, 02:23 AM Surging increases the Wilder's manifester level and provides free power points, but you have a % chance of enervation. Enervation means you fail to surge (you have to pay the power points normally and stuff), and you become dazed for one round.

Actually, enervation does not mean you fail to surge. Regardless of whether or not you suffer from psychic enervation following the manifestation, the power is still manifested with the surge.

[Long Post]

Anyway, as Lycanthromancer mentioned above, Surging just gets worse and worse as your surge bonus increases. Although the surge bonus effectively continues (via epic levels) indefinitely, the % psychic enervation chance caps at 100% of course. This means: Forget wilders if you plan on epic-level wild surge use.

The level-dependant loss of pp on enervation is also a very, very poor mechanic. A 1st level Wilder loses 1 pp when he suffers psychic enervation (for a +1 surge). The same wilder at 20th level, who only uses the same +1 bonus from surging, loses 20 pps if enervation occurs. In short, the bonuses stay the same, but the losses only get worse.

Volatile Mind isn't bad, but isn't really worth it. Especially since a strict interpretation of the ability would also mean it applies to telepathy powers that the wilder uses upon himself as well. Not that a typical wilder would take many buffing telepathy powers, but it does put a damper on all those Bestow Power recharge setups.

Elude Touch is an OK advantage, but nothing truly amazing. I don't feel that the flavour text adequately describes why the AC bonus applies only to touch attacks as opposed to any attacks, or why it's capped at your normal non-touch AC, but that's just a personal gripe.

Surging Euphoria is an OK buff. It does a good job of encouraging wild surge use... of course, with the declining advantages of wild surging as the class progresses, it loses it's charm at very high levels. In other words, it's a good side-benefit of the class, but it should never affect your decision to be a wilder.

Wilders have a decent skill selection, and an equally decent number of skill points per level. They can make a good "face" for the party (in the absence of a bard or rogue) with Bluff and Intimidate, partly in thanks to a typically high CHA. They can also make good "athletic" or "free-moving" characters with Tumble, Jump, Climb and Escape Artist.

Their BAB makes them capable of holding their own in a fight, though you'll see most of that benefit through the use of aiming blasting-powers, or after some melee-buffing. Their relatively limited weapon and armour proficiency will typically keep them out of melee though.

A good Will save progression fits their archetype well. (I feel a good Reflex progression would also have been fitting, but I digress.)

The small number of powers known is a serious drawback, unless you're planning on dumping many feats into Expanded Knowledge. 11 powers known over a 20-level advancement really is sub-par for a supposedly manifester-primary class.

[/Long Post]
The_Shaman
10-22-07, 07:10 AM I think the Educated Wilder feature from Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) may make wilders much more valuable. Free Expanded Knowledge every time you'd get Volatile Mind is practically a godsend for a class with so few powers known. Plus, being able to take powers off other classes' lists can allow you to customize your character much better.
InkBlot
10-22-07, 08:36 AM Oh yes. The Educated Wilder variant is quite delicious. Adding +50% more powers known? What's not to like?

And it's not like Volatile Mind actually did anything. It made you slightly more expensive for a psion or wilder to mind-control. Whoopdie doo. At 16th level a foe has to pay 4 extra power points to manifest a power on you, it doesn't count against your foes power-point cap, and it doesn't apply at all against spellcasters.
Actually, enervation does not mean you fail to surge. Regardless of whether or not you suffer from psychic enervation following the manifestation, the power is still manifested with the surge.
My bad. I didn't want to bother looking it up at the time I was writing that post.
Lycanthromancer
10-22-07, 11:27 AM There are a few ways to use the wilder class to your advantage (assuming you do it right). I was considering using wilder 1/psion (any) 9/anarchic initiate 10 in order to make the most of wild surging. You don't have to worry much about enervation, and since you can surge on any power you know (including your psion powers), you're a bit behind on powers known (about 1), but you don't lose out on actual manifester levels. Also, since enervating is based solely on wilder level, you only lose 1 power point for enervation even at epic levels, and you can wild surge out the wazoo. :)
jbsaff
10-22-07, 12:28 PM I have played a WotC Wilder and DM'd for a Dreamscarred Press alternate Wilder. I loved playing, but the DSP Wilder is an excellent re-working. If you are at all interested in the class, get Untapped Potential and head straight for the back of the book. And yes, Educated Wilder is absolutely great.
CrimsonDeath
10-22-07, 01:01 PM There are a few ways to use the wilder class to your advantage (assuming you do it right). I was considering using wilder 1/psion (any) 9/anarchic initiate 10 in order to make the most of wild surging. You don't have to worry much about enervation, and since you can surge on any power you know (including your psion powers), you're a bit behind on powers known (about 1), but you don't lose out on actual manifester levels. Also, since enervating is based solely on wilder level, you only lose 1 power point for enervation even at epic levels, and you can wild surge out the wazoo. :)

But then, that's really more of a Psion build, isn't it?
InkBlot
10-22-07, 03:47 PM For anyone looking into Anarchic Initiate, don't forget about the feat Educated from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It adds all knowledge skills to your class skills, thereby allowing a straight up Wilder to get int AI after level 5 instead of level 13.
rilem
10-22-07, 10:41 PM Hm, I have untapped potential but there's no alternate wilder in it. Am I missing something?
Nexis
10-23-07, 02:26 AM Hm, I have untapped potential but there's no alternate wilder in it. Am I missing something?

check the back
rilem
10-23-07, 09:26 AM Yeah, checked the back. Also did a text search for the word "wilder". Still ain't seeing it. What page?
TheKeyofE
10-23-07, 10:57 AM My copy doesn't have it either. Or the BlaineTog soulknife. Did we get gypped somehow?
RobbyPants
10-23-07, 11:05 AM i know they were worthless a while back, but did the wilder feats in Complete Psionic make them playable?
I saw an intersesting wilder gish on the boards a while back. It's not the most powerful class, but it's certainly a way to get some more milage out of the class.

Basically, you start as a wilder, take one level of fighter, and then either continue as wilder, or perhaps illithid slayer.

The powers you want to focus on are things like Vigor to boost your HP and help you tank. If you get a psicrystal and use the Share Pain power, you can have it take half the damage you take. With the Share Powers ability, any powers you cast on yourself can effect your psicrystal as well, so each manifestation of Vigor gives both of you 5 temporary HP per PP spent.

Once you're able to manifest 5th level powers, you take the Expanded Knowledge feat to learn Scism. Now you can refill your temporary HP without interrupting your full attack routine. If your HP are okay, you can throw a wild surged Mind Thurst at any low-Will baddies during a full attack.

Again, this guy isn't Batman or anything, but it's not a bad use of the wilder's features.

Edit:
Here is a link to a Wilder Build Compendium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=487972) I found. It goes over many things, including this basic gish build.
PrinceCurtis
10-23-07, 11:40 AM Well i haven't played one yet but I made decent Wilder build using Mantled Wilder and Educated Wilder. As stated above the Educated Wilder is a nice alternative, though being Mantled can be kick to a none themed Wilder (I was doing a Time theme...) Suprised this hasn't be nsaid yet (or i missed it), what about taking Overchannel and Talented with full manifesting class?

Kinda funny i never looked at the Untapped Variant Soulknife though, and odder still is it not being in those copies. It's in the Appendix.
Jaid
10-23-07, 12:09 PM those of you who don't have the wilder fix etc, do you have the print version of UTP?
jbsaff
10-23-07, 12:10 PM My copy doesn't have it either. Or the BlaineTog soulknife. Did we get gypped somehow?

Did you get an early PDF version? If so, I think it's possible that some additional material was added for the print release. You might be able to download it again. I don't know if the early PDF has been updated to the print release version, but that's probably a question for the DSP forums.
zzo38computer
10-23-07, 12:27 PM Maybe the wilder should get more power points or something like that to make up for the loss of powers known and other stuff.
InkBlot
10-23-07, 02:08 PM It's not that the Wilder doesn't get anything in exchange for it's limited number of powers known. It's that Wild Surge gets too dangerous to use at high levels and Volatile Mind doesn't actually do anything.

Further, additional power points won't help to alleviate any of the problems the Wilder has. The Wilder has no trouble manifesting his power as many times as he should need to in a day. Although it would be interesting to see a Wilder with infinite PP, in other words, a psi-like-ability using Wilder.
The_Shaman
10-23-07, 04:27 PM Well, the wilder already reminds me of a psionic warlock (similar number of powers known, medium BAB, some armor proficiency), might as well go all the way, right? ;)
RobbyPants
10-24-07, 09:12 AM It's not that the Wilder doesn't get anything in exchange for it's limited number of powers known. It's that Wild Surge gets too dangerous to use at high levels and Volatile Mind doesn't actually do anything.

Further, additional power points won't help to alleviate any of the problems the Wilder has. The Wilder has no trouble manifesting his power as many times as he should need to in a day. Although it would be interesting to see a Wilder with infinite PP, in other words, a psi-like-ability using Wilder.
Agreed.

I've only actually seen one of these in action. Back right after I bought the XPH, I had a player run one in a two-person party. She picked Mind Thrust for her first power (of course), and she had one or two other damaging effects. She was pretty much a one-trick-pony in that she'd just throw lots of PP at any problem that came her way. If it couldn't be handled by direct damage, she had a bit of a problem.

Still, this rings true with what you said. By mid levels, I don't think she ever ran out of PP. The lack of PP wasn't a problem, but rather a lack of versitility, coupled with increasingly dangerous or useless class features.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Used-As-A-Shield 10-20-07, 02:20 PM	i know they were worthless a while back, but did the wilder feats in Complete Psionic make them playable?
Lycanthromancer 10-20-07, 02:27 PM	Let's just say...they made them suck somewhat less, but didn't exactly make them wonderful. You still have to multiclass or PrC out of wilder around 11th level, else your primary class ability (wild surging) gets worse and worse and worse. Take a look at some of the alternate wilder classes around here.
InkBlot 10-20-07, 03:43 PM	They're not the worst class around. They're not as bad as a Soulknife, a Divine Mind, or a Marshal. But they're no Wizard. The Wilder is about on par with the Warlock, I think. The Wilder is like a Warlock who trades utility for peak power. And of course the Warlock has truly infinite power while the Wilder merely has good endurance (if you look for it). The Wilder isn't designed to fill the role of a primary caster, like a Psion, Wizard, or Cleric can. It can only fill that role through a lot of painful stretching and contorting. The Wilder is a blaster. It learns only a handful of powers (11!) and uses them better than anyone else. For most of your career you'll be stuck with the same one or two big tricks, and only two to four backup/emergency tricks.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-20-07, 04:10 PM	The Wilder is about on par with the Warlock, I think. The Wilder is like a Warlock who trades utility for peak power. And of course the Warlock has truly infinite power while the Wilder merely has good endurance (if you look for it). Amen to that. An early Wilder's pp efficiency is by using a 1pp power, augmented ONLY by Wild Surge. A recharge set-up on a Wilder, brings it to the Warlock in terms of power level, with different capabilities. The Mind's Eye article, expands the powers available, to well-nigh any power you can get by your DM. And it needs it. But yeah, it's now very playable, so long as a Cleric and a Wizard type are around. Could be your party's face with Rogue 1. Still want to get your 9th level power. Have fun.
Used-As-A-Shield 10-20-07, 04:37 PM	whats wrong with Divine Mind?
InkBlot 10-20-07, 05:02 PM	Have you really seriously looked at it? Besides the flavor of it (which is worse than an R. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in6RZzdGki8)L. Stein novel), it only gets 3/4 BAB, worse manifesting than a Psywar, weak auras with too small a range, and no other prominent class features to speak of. It can't fulfill any role; it can't tank, it can't support, it can't skirmish, it can't skillmonkey, it can't be a primary manifester, it can't be a healer. It's not like the Bard either, where the Bard can fill any one roll for a little while at least while simultaneously giving enormous support to the party.
Used-As-A-Shield 10-20-07, 06:05 PM	fair enough. i always saw it as being as close to a front-line fighter as psionics has gotten, seeing as how it can wear heavy armor. though, i suppose the ardent fills the role just as well.
InkBlot 10-20-07, 06:11 PM	Psychic Warriors also have heavy armor. Add in the combat bonus feats and the better combat buff powers, and the Divine Mind simply can't compete.
Hellsbells 10-20-07, 06:42 PM	I do not have any psionics books (im working on that). I no nothing of the wilder, I assumed from the name it was a psionic druid (well theme wise), could someone confirm or correct this?
InkBlot 10-20-07, 06:54 PM	No, the wilder has nothing to do with revering nature. The wilder is "wilder" as in he's very willful. Wilders are most analogous to Sorcerers. Wilders tap into the unpredictable power of emotion to fuel their psionics, and are often natural-born psychics with no training. They have 3/4 BAB, only 11 powers (compared to the Psion's 34), a d6 HD, 4 skill points per level, and the ability to Surge. Surging increases the Wilder's manifester level and provides free power points, but you have a % chance of enervation. Enervation means you fail to surge (you have to pay the power points normally and stuff), and you become dazed for one round. edit: Check out the System Reference Document. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicWilder.html) It's no substitute for the real thing, but it can help you get a feel for how the mechanics of psionics work. Also make sure to check out the sticky threads at the top of this forum, especially the Master Index and the New Player's And DM's Guide To Psionics.
Hellsbells 10-20-07, 07:06 PM	OOOOO thank you (( darn now I need to amke one of these. ))
MnemonicSV 10-22-07, 02:23 AM	Surging increases the Wilder's manifester level and provides free power points, but you have a % chance of enervation. Enervation means you fail to surge (you have to pay the power points normally and stuff), and you become dazed for one round. Actually, enervation does not mean you fail to surge. Regardless of whether or not you suffer from psychic enervation following the manifestation, the power is still manifested with the surge. [Long Post] Anyway, as Lycanthromancer mentioned above, Surging just gets worse and worse as your surge bonus increases. Although the surge bonus effectively continues (via epic levels) indefinitely, the % psychic enervation chance caps at 100% of course. This means: Forget wilders if you plan on epic-level wild surge use. The level-dependant loss of pp on enervation is also a very, very poor mechanic. A 1st level Wilder loses 1 pp when he suffers psychic enervation (for a +1 surge). The same wilder at 20th level, who only uses the same +1 bonus from surging, loses 20 pps if enervation occurs. In short, the bonuses stay the same, but the losses only get worse. Volatile Mind isn't bad, but isn't really worth it. Especially since a strict interpretation of the ability would also mean it applies to telepathy powers that the wilder uses upon himself as well. Not that a typical wilder would take many buffing telepathy powers, but it does put a damper on all those Bestow Power recharge setups. Elude Touch is an OK advantage, but nothing truly amazing. I don't feel that the flavour text adequately describes why the AC bonus applies only to touch attacks as opposed to any attacks, or why it's capped at your normal non-touch AC, but that's just a personal gripe. Surging Euphoria is an OK buff. It does a good job of encouraging wild surge use... of course, with the declining advantages of wild surging as the class progresses, it loses it's charm at very high levels. In other words, it's a good side-benefit of the class, but it should never affect your decision to be a wilder. Wilders have a decent skill selection, and an equally decent number of skill points per level. They can make a good "face" for the party (in the absence of a bard or rogue) with Bluff and Intimidate, partly in thanks to a typically high CHA. They can also make good "athletic" or "free-moving" characters with Tumble, Jump, Climb and Escape Artist. Their BAB makes them capable of holding their own in a fight, though you'll see most of that benefit through the use of aiming blasting-powers, or after some melee-buffing. Their relatively limited weapon and armour proficiency will typically keep them out of melee though. A good Will save progression fits their archetype well. (I feel a good Reflex progression would also have been fitting, but I digress.) The small number of powers known is a serious drawback, unless you're planning on dumping many feats into Expanded Knowledge. 11 powers known over a 20-level advancement really is sub-par for a supposedly manifester-primary class. [/Long Post]
The_Shaman 10-22-07, 07:10 AM	I think the Educated Wilder feature from Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) may make wilders much more valuable. Free Expanded Knowledge every time you'd get Volatile Mind is practically a godsend for a class with so few powers known. Plus, being able to take powers off other classes' lists can allow you to customize your character much better.
InkBlot 10-22-07, 08:36 AM	Oh yes. The Educated Wilder variant is quite delicious. Adding +50% more powers known? What's not to like? And it's not like Volatile Mind actually did anything. It made you slightly more expensive for a psion or wilder to mind-control. Whoopdie doo. At 16th level a foe has to pay 4 extra power points to manifest a power on you, it doesn't count against your foes power-point cap, and it doesn't apply at all against spellcasters. Actually, enervation does not mean you fail to surge. Regardless of whether or not you suffer from psychic enervation following the manifestation, the power is still manifested with the surge. My bad. I didn't want to bother looking it up at the time I was writing that post.
Lycanthromancer 10-22-07, 11:27 AM	There are a few ways to use the wilder class to your advantage (assuming you do it right). I was considering using wilder 1/psion (any) 9/anarchic initiate 10 in order to make the most of wild surging. You don't have to worry much about enervation, and since you can surge on any power you know (including your psion powers), you're a bit behind on powers known (about 1), but you don't lose out on actual manifester levels. Also, since enervating is based solely on wilder level, you only lose 1 power point for enervation even at epic levels, and you can wild surge out the wazoo. :)
jbsaff 10-22-07, 12:28 PM	I have played a WotC Wilder and DM'd for a Dreamscarred Press alternate Wilder. I loved playing, but the DSP Wilder is an excellent re-working. If you are at all interested in the class, get Untapped Potential and head straight for the back of the book. And yes, Educated Wilder is absolutely great.
CrimsonDeath 10-22-07, 01:01 PM	There are a few ways to use the wilder class to your advantage (assuming you do it right). I was considering using wilder 1/psion (any) 9/anarchic initiate 10 in order to make the most of wild surging. You don't have to worry much about enervation, and since you can surge on any power you know (including your psion powers), you're a bit behind on powers known (about 1), but you don't lose out on actual manifester levels. Also, since enervating is based solely on wilder level, you only lose 1 power point for enervation even at epic levels, and you can wild surge out the wazoo. :) But then, that's really more of a Psion build, isn't it?
InkBlot 10-22-07, 03:47 PM	For anyone looking into Anarchic Initiate, don't forget about the feat Educated from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It adds all knowledge skills to your class skills, thereby allowing a straight up Wilder to get int AI after level 5 instead of level 13.
rilem 10-22-07, 10:41 PM	Hm, I have untapped potential but there's no alternate wilder in it. Am I missing something?
Nexis 10-23-07, 02:26 AM	Hm, I have untapped potential but there's no alternate wilder in it. Am I missing something? check the back
rilem 10-23-07, 09:26 AM	Yeah, checked the back. Also did a text search for the word "wilder". Still ain't seeing it. What page?
TheKeyofE 10-23-07, 10:57 AM	My copy doesn't have it either. Or the BlaineTog soulknife. Did we get gypped somehow?
RobbyPants 10-23-07, 11:05 AM	i know they were worthless a while back, but did the wilder feats in Complete Psionic make them playable? I saw an intersesting wilder gish on the boards a while back. It's not the most powerful class, but it's certainly a way to get some more milage out of the class. Basically, you start as a wilder, take one level of fighter, and then either continue as wilder, or perhaps illithid slayer. The powers you want to focus on are things like Vigor to boost your HP and help you tank. If you get a psicrystal and use the Share Pain power, you can have it take half the damage you take. With the Share Powers ability, any powers you cast on yourself can effect your psicrystal as well, so each manifestation of Vigor gives both of you 5 temporary HP per PP spent. Once you're able to manifest 5th level powers, you take the Expanded Knowledge feat to learn Scism. Now you can refill your temporary HP without interrupting your full attack routine. If your HP are okay, you can throw a wild surged Mind Thurst at any low-Will baddies during a full attack. Again, this guy isn't Batman or anything, but it's not a bad use of the wilder's features. Edit: Here is a link to a Wilder Build Compendium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=487972) I found. It goes over many things, including this basic gish build.
PrinceCurtis 10-23-07, 11:40 AM	Well i haven't played one yet but I made decent Wilder build using Mantled Wilder and Educated Wilder. As stated above the Educated Wilder is a nice alternative, though being Mantled can be kick to a none themed Wilder (I was doing a Time theme...) Suprised this hasn't be nsaid yet (or i missed it), what about taking Overchannel and Talented with full manifesting class? Kinda funny i never looked at the Untapped Variant Soulknife though, and odder still is it not being in those copies. It's in the Appendix.
Jaid 10-23-07, 12:09 PM	those of you who don't have the wilder fix etc, do you have the print version of UTP?
jbsaff 10-23-07, 12:10 PM	My copy doesn't have it either. Or the BlaineTog soulknife. Did we get gypped somehow? Did you get an early PDF version? If so, I think it's possible that some additional material was added for the print release. You might be able to download it again. I don't know if the early PDF has been updated to the print release version, but that's probably a question for the DSP forums.
zzo38computer 10-23-07, 12:27 PM	Maybe the wilder should get more power points or something like that to make up for the loss of powers known and other stuff.
InkBlot 10-23-07, 02:08 PM	It's not that the Wilder doesn't get anything in exchange for it's limited number of powers known. It's that Wild Surge gets too dangerous to use at high levels and Volatile Mind doesn't actually do anything. Further, additional power points won't help to alleviate any of the problems the Wilder has. The Wilder has no trouble manifesting his power as many times as he should need to in a day. Although it would be interesting to see a Wilder with infinite PP, in other words, a psi-like-ability using Wilder.
The_Shaman 10-23-07, 04:27 PM	Well, the wilder already reminds me of a psionic warlock (similar number of powers known, medium BAB, some armor proficiency), might as well go all the way, right? ;)
RobbyPants 10-24-07, 09:12 AM	It's not that the Wilder doesn't get anything in exchange for it's limited number of powers known. It's that Wild Surge gets too dangerous to use at high levels and Volatile Mind doesn't actually do anything. Further, additional power points won't help to alleviate any of the problems the Wilder has. The Wilder has no trouble manifesting his power as many times as he should need to in a day. Although it would be interesting to see a Wilder with infinite PP, in other words, a psi-like-ability using Wilder. Agreed. I've only actually seen one of these in action. Back right after I bought the XPH, I had a player run one in a two-person party. She picked Mind Thrust for her first power (of course), and she had one or two other damaging effects. She was pretty much a one-trick-pony in that she'd just throw lots of PP at any problem that came her way. If it couldn't be handled by direct damage, she had a bit of a problem. Still, this rings true with what you said. By mid levels, I don't think she ever ran out of PP. The lack of PP wasn't a problem, but rather a lack of versitility, coupled with increasingly dangerous or useless class features.