Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tempest Stormwind 05-21-07, 11:52 PM	I've been giving a lot of thought to the constructor lately, not just because I'm playing a shaper (going into constructor soon; not sure if I'll wait another level first or not, though). Y'see, back when I first read it, back in 3.0, I thought it was a very, very nifty class (I still do, but run with me here). This was especially true in that it allowed for ectomanipulation -- trading menu choices up for more powerful ones (just like we can currently do in reverse) even while you manifest several cheaper constructs. This allowed you to create low-level constructs with far higher level abilities, such as a swarm of AC3s with Concussion or Cone of Sound (still 3.0), which essentially let you create walls of riflemen or shotgunners, or a swarm of lower-level ACs with the Gore attack (which in 3.0 had a fixed attack bonus regardless of size or strength, meaning a low-level AC could actually bum-rush its way into hitting a higher-level target). The real nice winner on that was Menu D, at least in theory. Only accessable through ectomanipulation and advanced construction, it was, essentially, a collection of high-powered abilities that were either the lower-level ones scaled up or completely novel. It was an attempt to make the high-level ACs continue to scale even higher, so a single AC9 put out by a constructor could rival even the best summons created by a wizard at that point. (It, of course, did not, but that was because this type of psionics was weak in 3.0.) Of course, if you look back at Menu D now (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c), you realize that most of it is either obsolete (mostly due to the changes between 3.0 and 3.5) or present in the lower-level menus. Amplified Invisibility = Natural Invisibility (menu C) but worse. Mass Concussion = Included as part of Concussion Blast (menu C); the ML is high enough to hit multiple targets (weakly). Super Buff = Constructs got bonus HP in the 3.5 revision; this plus Extra Buff comes close to what Super Buff would grant (AC 9 = Huge construct = +40 HP, 40+Extra Buff(30) = 70, average on 17d10 is 93.5). Close, but not quite. Ultraheavy Armor: Constructs got an IMMENSE Natural Armor bonus during the 3.5 revision (AC9 in 3.0 had +10 natural armor, AC9 in 3.5 has +25). The only ones that aren't obsolete or subsumed are: Extra Hard Carapace (note the DR system was changed) Toughest (Actually, the entire Tough line isn't present in 3.5) Whitefire Aura (which was weak) That's hardly representative of what Menu D could have been. It's a menu only accessable to constructors, and a menu that relies on giving up other special ablities to get. Furthermore, constructs got fewer menu choices in 3.5 than they did in 3.0, meaning ectomanipulation wouldn't be quite as useful as before (though it's still a kickass ability). Here's a question to you, then. Given the understanding that the constructor would regain its ectomanipulation (trade up) power, what would you design as Menu D? I'm especially interested in hearing the board's interpretation of scaling in patterns and providing new ablities that stand out as totally original. It would, naturally, be considered advanced construction. This might see use in-game either as a modified constructor or as a short high-level PrC I'd write for the boards.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-22-07, 12:36 AM	See, the current astral construct is balanced and usable, unlike everything in the Psionics Handbook. I would make an epic-level feat that would grant a shaper access to a list of D abilities, and possibly even E and F if you feel like making things that powerful.
Lokiyn 05-22-07, 12:50 AM	See, the current astral construct is on the weak side of balanced and usable at low levels. *snarky* Now as for menu D options, its hard to judge without playtesting, but something like InterceptionThis ability allows the Astral construct to intercept one targeted effect or attack that affects a single target. After doing so the astral construct loses this ability. Might be nice (completely of the top of my head)
Tempest Stormwind 05-22-07, 12:59 AM	Hi, guys? It's me, Tempest. I'm VERY much aware of which book we're using, thanks. Please read the rest of my post -- I'm not suggesting we use 3.0 at all. The only reason why I mentioned it was that Menu D was a Mind's Eye article dating back from 3.0. I thought it, and ectomanipulation, would be an interesting twist to modern high-level construct play, since as is even with constructor they tend to lag behind. (I don't make the mistake of confusing "there's no alternative" with "it's balanced". AC is fine at low and mid levels but lags behind anything else without Constructor, and lags behind other dedicated summoners even WITH Constructor). I'm just trying to brainstorm ideas to expand upon its potential 3.5 conversion in light of the 3.5 constructor.
Millenia 05-22-07, 02:15 AM	Hmmm.... What I'd like to see for Menu D would be... Supreme Deflection (Ex): +16 deflection bonus to armor class Whitefire Aura, only more powerful, perhaps. Superior Fast Healing (Ex): Heal 10 HP/round Trample, only it deals more damage, knocks enemies prone (if they fail the ref save, of course), and the construct runs up to its speed (or double), allowing it to trample as many people as possible, except perhaps not allowing it to run someone over twice. Energy Retort? Entangling Ectoplasm as a free action, though it's probably too weak for menu D... Concussion and Energy Bolt with an ML equal to the construct's level? Awesome Blow... Constant Freedom of Movement? >>a Metaphysical Claw at ML 17, which gives a +5 enhancement bonus to the natural attacks? An option to give two extra natural attacks? Bite Attack + Swallow Whole? More powerful/useful movement options, though those might be better for Menu C... Sorry for the stream-of-conscious post, if it was incoherent. D: Edit: Or a menu option that lets the AC's natural attacks count as <alignment(s)> and/or <material(s)>, so it can pierce DR/hardness more easily?
The_Ditto 05-22-07, 08:20 AM	What about things like: - arrow/(missile?) attraction (ie incoming missiles tend to veer towards the construct rather than intended targets - not sure if this is a D menu - but a bit of "tweaking" might get it's power base up ..) - Spell reflection? - Increase BaB or HD ?? - "Advanced" multiple limbs ? - Stances?? (ala Tomb of Battle?) (I know practically nothing about them ... but what I've heard, they'd be a major bump in the melee department, right?) Another one I've always tried to "play with" .. is a menu ability that turns your construct into either an "Ooze" or a "swarm". For example, for the Ooze option: - Gain the Ooze type, (Augmented Construct). - Dex is reduced to 1 - Str reduced by 20.. - lose all other menu picks (I did this typically to ensure balance ... it was basically: "trade in all your options - get an ooze ...) - gain "Engulf" - lose all natural armor - speed reduced to half - retains only 1 slam attack (not 2) - but keeps same base damage - gains improved grab + constrict - gains blindsight 60 ft. - gains ooze traits (mostly cosmetic - as they are similar to construct traits) Giving it (basically) a set of "pre-programmed" menu picks ... (yeah, I came up with this prior to Complete Psionics and the "Ectopic forms" :yuck: ) Maybe it would work "better" as a higher menu pick ... My primary concern was with the additional menu picks being tacked on after being an Ooze might make things a little "unbalancing" ... not sure - never got a chance to playtest ... But I think the basic idea is sound - either gain this menu option as a feat (and/or Swarm as another feat?) it holds close to the idea that the constructs are just ectoplasmic material from the astral ... the Ooze option just doesn't solidify it into a solid shape .. the Swarm option just solidifies it into smaller shapes ... Just some ideas ... :tiphat:
BloodSpill 05-22-07, 01:43 PM	What changes? Level 10 constructs for 19PP. 1 menu D option, 2 menu C options. Sample Menu D ability: Tentacle Monster (Ex): Trip attack 1/round as a free action at anything within reach.
Lycanthromancer 05-22-07, 02:38 PM	I was thinking of doing this once I've finished with my XPH revisions. What about... Ray deflection Channel power (like you can with a higher-level psicrystal, but only lower-level powers) An increase in manifester level (for psi-like abilities) Swallow whole Higher-level constructs in smaller sizes Swarm of Crystals (as a psi-like) The ability to manifest the construct as a puddle of ectoplasm that remains inert until someone touches it, wherein it reforms into its construct self (may or may not count against the duration of the power) Colossal+ sizes Teleport Without Error as a psi-like (within a certain range; say, 1 mile) Amorphous and engulfing attacks (see the ooze idea above) Overcoming epic and other forms of DR Psionic Banishment and Psionic Dimensional Anchor as psi-likes
Scion of Coldshard 05-22-07, 03:20 PM	Both fission and fusion would make for interesting options for Menu D, useable once per day for the construct of course (like that matters ;) ). Fusion would allow the constructor to make a construct and then fuse with it himself, if he doesnt mind the massive loss in power points that will happen if he does this will a lot of pp in his pool. Fission is interesting in that the construct trades having some really impressive ability for being two of himself.
kyeudo 05-22-07, 04:22 PM	There are time that I wish I could find a game that stayed going long enough to enter high level play. This is one of them. If you want to add back in Ectomanipulation, make it a feat or a capstone class feature. I never was involved in 3.0, so I have no clue what it origionaly was. Personaly, I second Fission, while I don't think that Fusion is a good option. For other menu D choices, the only ones I can think of are heavier versions of buff and deflection.
RadicalTaoist 05-22-07, 06:40 PM	All I can think is "Oh man, that Astral Juggernaut power I designed may be getting a nasy boost..."
Kiklio 05-22-07, 06:43 PM	Isn't Fission rendered superfluous/unusable due to the Constructor's ability to "Twin" constructs? Possibilities: Power Immunity Energy Immunity Inconstant Location Detonation: Construct deals some amount of typeless damage in large radius. Deals more to grappled target. Expansion Multi-Attack That one fighter substitution ability from Dungeonscape that deals extra damage when bull rushing into a solid structure.
Wizard Random 05-22-07, 08:08 PM	How about the ability to generate a Anti Psionics feild kinda like a collossus but with say a normal 10ft range? Maybe the ability to use Dispel Psionics like a Psi-Killer? Maybe a ability to fuse with you're psicrystal and create a Highly intellegent constuct capable of scouting or anything else, all on a duration? Give the deflection ability to deflect a arrow Give the ability to choose any 2 feats for a menu option Bane X Slam attacks?? Or maybe be able to enchant the slams with other types of weapon abilties, kinda like a Amulet of Natural Attacks. The abiltity to dominate other contructs? Give it the sheild other ability (turn it into a sheild guardian, created at will) Maybe give it the ability to channel Psionic powers through it, Send the big guy into the next room and unleash energy balls. Maybe something like Skin of the Constuct but WAY less sucky Give it the ability to "engulf" a enemy and stick that enemy into a static time stream (quintessence) for the duration of the constuct power. Possibly turn it into a fighter of half its HD or some other melee type class (since picking out spells and such is a pain) I always thought it would be cool to have my contruct turn into vehicles, try turning it into say... a Huge Airship or mabye a Halfling warwagon or something (Go go Gagdet Wagon!) ill come up with more but this is getting my creativ e juices flowing now :devil: BTW: When you refer to them as AC it makes me want to play Armored Core...
Infinitum 05-22-07, 09:56 PM	See, the current astral construct is balanced and usable, unlike everything in the Psionics Handbook. I would make an epic-level feat that would grant a shaper access to a list of D abilities, and possibly even E and F if you feel like making things that powerful. You're funny.
AntiDjinn 05-23-07, 12:56 AM	Ecto Reaver: The construct resolves all hand to hand attacks against other astral constructs as touch attacks. It ignores the hardness of objects composed of ectoplasm (such as a Wall of Ectoplasm or an object made with Minor Creation) as well as the armor bonus granted by a Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor or similar items. Its attacks bypass the DR granted by Ectoplasmic Form. It is not impeded by effects such as Ectoplasmic Cocoon or Ectoplasmic Shambler. Annex Ectoplasm: When the construct destroys another astral construct (or being using Ectoplasmic Form) or sunders an object composed of ectoplasm it absorbs some of the subject's substance. The construct gains 1d4 hit points per level or hit dice of the destroyed creature or in the case of objects 1d4 per level of the effect used to create the object. If it destroys a permanent item of an ectoplasmic nature it gains 1d4 per manifester level of the item's creator. These are not temporary hit points. For each 5 hit points gained in this manner the construct is treated as being 1 hit dice higher for calculating BAB and saving throws. These added hit dice may entitle it to gain additional menu picks (as per the normal menu progression) but such options are limited to the menu items possessed by the constructs it destroyed (if no constructs were destroyed then no additional menu options are gained). Stabilized Construct: The construct is not subject to Dispel Psionics, Dismiss Ectoplasm, or Detain Ectoplasm. Its armor is not ignored by Ecto Reaver and its is not subject to Annex Ectoplasm. Protean Construct: You may change the appearance and lower menu options of this construct as a standard action. You must have line of effect to your construct to initiate this change. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but it requires a standard action from each of you. Any number of menu options may be changed (as though you were re-manifesting the construct with different choices) though no options higher than the "C" menu are available. You may also reroll your Craft (Sculpt) check to alter the appearance of your construct. If you expend your focus in as part of this action it counts as a standard action for you but a swift action for your construct.
brothersutek 05-23-07, 01:00 AM	+++ One power I would like to see would be - Time stretch: construct lasts longer than 1rd/lvl not sure how long the duration should last to make this fair but if you put in the levels... :twitch: hate the "astral construct power fix"
Wizard Random 05-23-07, 05:16 PM	My suggestions = a crayon drawing Antidinjinn's suggestions = mona lisa .... /cry
cnahumck 05-23-07, 06:25 PM	What about allowing the constructor to add templates to it. Some might be out, but others could be interesting, like elemental types or The Axiomatic creature template.
Lycanthromancer 05-23-07, 07:06 PM	The ability to survive in a null psionics field? Racial bonus feats?
periscope 05-23-07, 07:27 PM	allow it to apply the brilliant energy enhancement to its slam attacks? Or possibly an ability similar to the slime that covers that one demon (the one with the wierd horn coming out the back of its head) that dissolves manufactured weapons and deals acid damage to those who strike with unarmed strikes or natural attacks?
Kiklio 05-23-07, 09:09 PM	Antidjinn- *Shaper makes five Level 9 constructs* "Okay, Constructs A-D, start beating yourselves up. Construct E, finish your brothers off. We're playing Highlander rules, here, people!" Alternate Ending: "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile" 2nd Alternate Ending: "All your ectoplasm are belong to us"
periscope 05-23-07, 10:26 PM	:rofl: Where does that "all your yadda yadda are belong to us" line come from? Ive heard it a bajillion times, but can anyone site the source?
Millenia 05-23-07, 10:42 PM	:rofl: Where does that "all your yadda yadda are belong to us" line come from? Ive heard it a bajillion times, but can anyone site the source? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Your_Base
periscope 05-23-07, 11:03 PM	Thx! that was really buggin me. What about an ability that gave the construct two heads? If they had a power then the one head could full attack and the other could manifest powers (maybe just make it a face on their chest and stomach).
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 03:46 AM	Antidjinn- *Shaper makes five Level 9 constructs* "Okay, Constructs A-D, start beating yourselves up. Construct E, finish your brothers off. We're playing Highlander rules, here, people!" Alternate Ending: "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile" 2nd Alternate Ending: "All your ectoplasm are belong to us" The rounds spent fighting friendly constructs still count against the duration of the remaining construct, and all the ones killed still have to be paid for. Since you only get d4 hits per level of the construct it means a level 9 who kills a level 9 will gain 9d4 hits (average 22.5 hits) which puts it up 4 effective levels. One construct will have to kill all the others to gain this efficiency; if they all fight each other you won't get this level of return on the final construct. You paid 17 points for that other 9th level construct and only transfer 4 levels plus a couple of A or B menu picks (that you already had paid for with your construct). Each construct is still 1 round to manifest and the combat will take time. It would be smarter to kill your opponent's constructs.
Kiklio 05-24-07, 06:16 PM	I'm not claiming it's too good. Just that it's hilarious.
Choon 05-24-07, 11:41 PM	My suggestions = a crayon drawing Antidinjinn's suggestions = mona lisa .... /cry I've been on this board... 20 min now and I already feel inept in his presence. :bow: As for a D list, I would start with enhancing the current options first. Sometimes the best construct is the tried and true that you've hammered out a place for in the party. Then I would start adding one or two new abilities to mix things up. In general, I would try not to totally redesign everything and not carry over any of the older powers (enhanced, of course). If you do you'll take some of the attractiveness away from the PrC.
Millenia 05-30-07, 05:29 PM	Hmmm. Although this might be that powerful for menu D, how about having Whitefire Aura give off energy damage (chosen when construct is manifested), and give the construct immunity to said damage? Would be kinda cool, though perhaps weak in certain areas (an AC immune to fire damage in a volcano, but it gives off fire damage as well).