Astral Construct question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Astral Construct question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eldritch_Lord
09-26-07, 09:32 PM Back in 3.0, when you created an astral construct, you could trade a menu C ability for 2 menu B abilities and 1 menu B for 2 menu A, as it is now with the XPH. However, you could also "trade in" 2 menu A for 1 menu B and 2 B for 1 C, but there's nothing in the XPH about trading up rather than down. This makes sense normally, because you only have 1 ability until a 9th level construct, but what if you have Boost Construct, the Constructor PrC, or the like?

Bottom line: Can you "trade up" multiple abilities if you have 2 or more from Boost Construct and, if not, why not?

Thanks in advance.
Tempest Stormwind
09-26-07, 09:39 PM Back in 3.0, when you created an astral construct, you could trade a menu C ability for 2 menu B abilities and 1 menu B for 2 menu A, as it is now with the XPH. However, you could also "trade in" 2 menu A for 1 menu B and 2 B for 1 C, but there's nothing in the XPH about trading up rather than down. This makes sense normally, because you only have 1 ability until a 9th level construct, but what if you have Boost Construct, the Constructor PrC, or the like?

Bottom line: Can you "trade up" multiple abilities if you have 2 or more from Boost Construct and, if not, why not?

Thanks in advance.

You could only "trade up" with the 3.0 Ectomanipulation feat, not by default. That feat has not yet been converted to 3.5, so you can't do it in 3.5.

Personally, I proposed a change to the Constructor PrC to my DM (DisposableHero) who OK'ed it: Replace Utility Construct with Ectomanipulation. It shows up rather late, but *just* before you get C abilities if you took Constructor straight out of the gate, and certainly fits the feel of the constructor rather well. It's also deep enough in the PrC that only specialized characters can ever use this ability, which means that only dedicated specialists can do things like spend 1 power point for a ML 8 Energy-Bolt-using or ML 7 Concussion-Blast-using construct. (I also ported Astral Tasker as a researchable augment to Astral Construct, which made Utility Construct worthless, but it was already close to worthless as a 7th level PrC ability!)
Eldritch_Lord
09-26-07, 10:01 PM You could only "trade up" with the 3.0 Ectomanipulation feat, not by default. That feat has not yet been converted to 3.5, so you can't do it in 3.5.

While my old DM has the 3.0 PH and I can't check right now, I don't remember any Ectomanipulation feat :confused:. I don't think I ever used that (though it might have been a house rule to go without); was it in the 3.0 PH? Mind's Eye?

Anyway, now that Astral Constructs only get 1 ability rather than 2 or 3, do you think it would be unbalanced to be able to trade up for free? It seems to me that if 2A=B, you should be able to go both ways, but there might be something I'm missing.
Sagetim
09-26-07, 10:22 PM While my old DM has the 3.0 PH and I can't check right now, I don't remember any Ectomanipulation feat :confused:. I don't think I ever used that (though it might have been a house rule to go without); was it in the 3.0 PH? Mind's Eye?

Anyway, now that Astral Constructs only get 1 ability rather than 2 or 3, do you think it would be unbalanced to be able to trade up for free? It seems to me that if 2A=B, you should be able to go both ways, but there might be something I'm missing.
trading down is already in the 3.5 eph. however, if you have enough levels of the constructor, you can spend something like 7 pp for a small swarm of level 1 constructs that can shoot energy bolts each round.
unusualsuspect
09-26-07, 10:25 PM Tempest:
It's also deep enough in the PrC that only specialized characters can ever use this ability, which means that only dedicated specialists can do things like spend 1 power point for a ML 8 Energy-Bolt-using or ML 7 Concussion-Blast-using construct.

The problem comes along when the Constructor reaches 9th level, allowing him to manifest a metric ton of the little blighters with a single manifestation... 8 small astral constructs belting out a 4d6 no save force damage effect each, at medium range, for at least 140 rounds? Better hope the target has spell resistance, because 36d6 unsavable damage isn't anything to sneeze at.
kyeudo
09-26-07, 10:40 PM You mean 14 rounds?
Eldritch_Lord
09-26-07, 10:57 PM The problem comes along when the Constructor reaches 9th level, allowing him to manifest a metric ton of the little blighters with a single manifestation... 8 small astral constructs belting out a 4d6 no save force damage effect each, at medium range, for at least 140 rounds? Better hope the target has spell resistance, because 36d6 unsavable damage isn't anything to sneeze at.

Ah. :mymy: It appears there was something I was missing. There goes that idea....
unusualsuspect
09-26-07, 11:10 PM You mean 14 rounds?

I mean 140 rounds. Constructors get (at 5th level, if memory serves) a class ability that changes the Astral Construct power's duration to 1 minute/level instead of 1 round/level.

14 minimum manifester level, thus 14 minutes, thus 140 rounds.
Tempest Stormwind
09-26-07, 11:11 PM Ecto Manipulation (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c). 3.0 feat, do not use.

Unusualsuspect: Considering what else is available at that point? And that you're limited to 4 per manifestation despite being so uber-focused?
unusualsuspect
09-27-07, 01:47 AM Huh. This is what happens when I don't pay enough attention to detail. I'd never noticed the augment was limited to 3 extra constructs.

16d6 unsavable force damage at will for 140 rounds is still nothing to sneeze at for a mere 15 pp expenditure, though, even if it does require you to specialize somewhat more then normal.

Edit: Actually, 12d6 unsavable force damage. Having missed two crucial details so far, I think I'm going to go to bed before I strike out completely.
Sagetim
09-27-07, 09:29 PM Huh. This is what happens when I don't pay enough attention to detail. I'd never noticed the augment was limited to 3 extra constructs.

16d6 unsavable force damage at will for 140 rounds is still nothing to sneeze at for a mere 15 pp expenditure, though, even if it does require you to specialize somewhat more then normal.

Edit: Actually, 12d6 unsavable force damage. Having missed two crucial details so far, I think I'm going to go to bed before I strike out completely.

*pets unusual* thanks for pointing these out.

now, what to do with four class A powers? hmmm
improved nat attack
improved bull rush
celerity
buff
+5 hp, +10ft, 1d6+3 damage per slam, and improved rushing...

or 4 menu b abilities: (level 4 construct)
fast healing
pounce
extra attack
improved nat attack
celerity
fast heal 2, ability to full attack after charge, 2 attacks 1d8+10 damage,

and now menu C abilities: (level 7 construct)
fast healing
celerity
improved natural attack
concussion
energybolt
power resistance

or, instead of trading one in for the first three: natural invis or extreme damage reduction.

hmmm, sending even one level 7 like that into a war zone would really blow the hell out of enemy forces. Especially because it would last for, what? about 15 minutes?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldritch_Lord 09-26-07, 09:32 PM	Back in 3.0, when you created an astral construct, you could trade a menu C ability for 2 menu B abilities and 1 menu B for 2 menu A, as it is now with the XPH. However, you could also "trade in" 2 menu A for 1 menu B and 2 B for 1 C, but there's nothing in the XPH about trading up rather than down. This makes sense normally, because you only have 1 ability until a 9th level construct, but what if you have Boost Construct, the Constructor PrC, or the like? Bottom line: Can you "trade up" multiple abilities if you have 2 or more from Boost Construct and, if not, why not? Thanks in advance.
Tempest Stormwind 09-26-07, 09:39 PM	Back in 3.0, when you created an astral construct, you could trade a menu C ability for 2 menu B abilities and 1 menu B for 2 menu A, as it is now with the XPH. However, you could also "trade in" 2 menu A for 1 menu B and 2 B for 1 C, but there's nothing in the XPH about trading up rather than down. This makes sense normally, because you only have 1 ability until a 9th level construct, but what if you have Boost Construct, the Constructor PrC, or the like? Bottom line: Can you "trade up" multiple abilities if you have 2 or more from Boost Construct and, if not, why not? Thanks in advance. You could only "trade up" with the 3.0 Ectomanipulation feat, not by default. That feat has not yet been converted to 3.5, so you can't do it in 3.5. Personally, I proposed a change to the Constructor PrC to my DM (DisposableHero) who OK'ed it: Replace Utility Construct with Ectomanipulation. It shows up rather late, but just before you get C abilities if you took Constructor straight out of the gate, and certainly fits the feel of the constructor rather well. It's also deep enough in the PrC that only specialized characters can ever use this ability, which means that only dedicated specialists can do things like spend 1 power point for a ML 8 Energy-Bolt-using or ML 7 Concussion-Blast-using construct. (I also ported Astral Tasker as a researchable augment to Astral Construct, which made Utility Construct worthless, but it was already close to worthless as a 7th level PrC ability!)
Eldritch_Lord 09-26-07, 10:01 PM	You could only "trade up" with the 3.0 Ectomanipulation feat, not by default. That feat has not yet been converted to 3.5, so you can't do it in 3.5. While my old DM has the 3.0 PH and I can't check right now, I don't remember any Ectomanipulation feat :confused:. I don't think I ever used that (though it might have been a house rule to go without); was it in the 3.0 PH? Mind's Eye? Anyway, now that Astral Constructs only get 1 ability rather than 2 or 3, do you think it would be unbalanced to be able to trade up for free? It seems to me that if 2A=B, you should be able to go both ways, but there might be something I'm missing.
Sagetim 09-26-07, 10:22 PM	While my old DM has the 3.0 PH and I can't check right now, I don't remember any Ectomanipulation feat :confused:. I don't think I ever used that (though it might have been a house rule to go without); was it in the 3.0 PH? Mind's Eye? Anyway, now that Astral Constructs only get 1 ability rather than 2 or 3, do you think it would be unbalanced to be able to trade up for free? It seems to me that if 2A=B, you should be able to go both ways, but there might be something I'm missing. trading down is already in the 3.5 eph. however, if you have enough levels of the constructor, you can spend something like 7 pp for a small swarm of level 1 constructs that can shoot energy bolts each round.
unusualsuspect 09-26-07, 10:25 PM	Tempest: It's also deep enough in the PrC that only specialized characters can ever use this ability, which means that only dedicated specialists can do things like spend 1 power point for a ML 8 Energy-Bolt-using or ML 7 Concussion-Blast-using construct. The problem comes along when the Constructor reaches 9th level, allowing him to manifest a metric ton of the little blighters with a single manifestation... 8 small astral constructs belting out a 4d6 no save force damage effect each, at medium range, for at least 140 rounds? Better hope the target has spell resistance, because 36d6 unsavable damage isn't anything to sneeze at.
kyeudo 09-26-07, 10:40 PM	You mean 14 rounds?
Eldritch_Lord 09-26-07, 10:57 PM	The problem comes along when the Constructor reaches 9th level, allowing him to manifest a metric ton of the little blighters with a single manifestation... 8 small astral constructs belting out a 4d6 no save force damage effect each, at medium range, for at least 140 rounds? Better hope the target has spell resistance, because 36d6 unsavable damage isn't anything to sneeze at. Ah. :mymy: It appears there was something I was missing. There goes that idea....
unusualsuspect 09-26-07, 11:10 PM	You mean 14 rounds? I mean 140 rounds. Constructors get (at 5th level, if memory serves) a class ability that changes the Astral Construct power's duration to 1 minute/level instead of 1 round/level. 14 minimum manifester level, thus 14 minutes, thus 140 rounds.
Tempest Stormwind 09-26-07, 11:11 PM	Ecto Manipulation (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c). 3.0 feat, do not use. Unusualsuspect: Considering what else is available at that point? And that you're limited to 4 per manifestation despite being so uber-focused?
unusualsuspect 09-27-07, 01:47 AM	Huh. This is what happens when I don't pay enough attention to detail. I'd never noticed the augment was limited to 3 extra constructs. 16d6 unsavable force damage at will for 140 rounds is still nothing to sneeze at for a mere 15 pp expenditure, though, even if it does require you to specialize somewhat more then normal. Edit: Actually, 12d6 unsavable force damage. Having missed two crucial details so far, I think I'm going to go to bed before I strike out completely.
Sagetim 09-27-07, 09:29 PM	Huh. This is what happens when I don't pay enough attention to detail. I'd never noticed the augment was limited to 3 extra constructs. 16d6 unsavable force damage at will for 140 rounds is still nothing to sneeze at for a mere 15 pp expenditure, though, even if it does require you to specialize somewhat more then normal. Edit: Actually, 12d6 unsavable force damage. Having missed two crucial details so far, I think I'm going to go to bed before I strike out completely. pets unusual thanks for pointing these out. now, what to do with four class A powers? hmmm improved nat attack improved bull rush celerity buff +5 hp, +10ft, 1d6+3 damage per slam, and improved rushing... or 4 menu b abilities: (level 4 construct) fast healing pounce extra attack improved nat attack celerity fast heal 2, ability to full attack after charge, 2 attacks 1d8+10 damage, and now menu C abilities: (level 7 construct) fast healing celerity improved natural attack concussion energybolt power resistance or, instead of trading one in for the first three: natural invis or extreme damage reduction. hmmm, sending even one level 7 like that into a war zone would really blow the hell out of enemy forces. Especially because it would last for, what? about 15 minutes?