Astral constructs VS Anti Magic Field [Archive] - Wizards Community

Astral constructs VS Anti Magic Field [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
heavenisme
04-01-08, 03:14 PM Using transparency in our campaign and need to know what affect if any is there on Astral Constructs if they enter an Antimagic Field. Or if a creature with one comes in contact with them.

My group waits patiently for your response. Thanks
Racinante
04-01-08, 04:23 PM Astral Constructs cannot enter an anti-magic field and wink out of existence if placed in one, only to reappear when the field is gone. Duration continues to count, however, for the time the AC is gone.
heavenisme
04-02-08, 01:47 AM We could use a few more guys to chime in to make it official. The player says that constructs dont wink out. I am posting here to clear it up for sure, so if anyone else would like to add a comment it would help.

DM has game on hold until we get some concrete answers. . . .
Tempest Stormwind
04-02-08, 02:53 AM Sorry for the delay.

Constructs do definitely wink out in antimagic fields -- there's a power sustaining them (which has a duration that isn't instantaneous), and that power's suppressed in the field. Thus, the construct collapses.

An argument can be made for the construct being *destroyed* by the field, but I consider that vindictive: Precedent suggests they wink out and return when the field leaves (not to mention the constructs are weak compared to summons and don't need another disadvantage...)
Racinante
04-02-08, 11:00 AM We could use a few more guys to chime in to make it official. The player says that constructs dont wink out. I am posting here to clear it up for sure, so if anyone else would like to add a comment it would help.

DM has game on hold until we get some concrete answers. . . .

Unless he has some way of making the Astral Construct permanent, it will wink out. Golems and similar permanent constructs do not disappear.
Eerongal
04-02-08, 11:04 AM because it has a duration and such, an AC is essentially a summoned creature, and treated as such inside of an AMF. Standard constructs (golems and such) do NOT wink out in AMFs because they are permanent creatures. Now if you were to summon a golem via a summoning spell, it would do the exact same as any other summoned creature. Same principle here.
Frozen_Flame
04-02-08, 11:19 AM I agree with the above, they are summoned...

If it really makes that much of a difference, you could say that the AC simply collapses into a pile of worthless ectoplasm, only to get reconstructed when the field no longer affects it.
Racinante
04-02-08, 11:40 AM because it has a duration and such, an AC is essentially a summoned creature, and treated as such inside of an AMF. Standard constructs (golems and such) do NOT wink out in AMFs because they are permanent creatures. Now if you were to summon a golem via a summoning spell, it would do the exact same as any other summoned creature. Same principle here.

Just to pick nits here. An AC is not essentially a summoned creature, as the AC does not exist anywhere outside of the power. The AC is a "spell" effect and as such is hedged out by an antimagic field. If an antimagic field is moved or cast onto him, he winks out, but he cannot enter the antimagic field, as it is impervious to him.
Eerongal
04-02-08, 12:16 PM Just to pick nits here. An AC is not essentially a summoned creature, as the AC does not exist anywhere outside of the power. The AC is a "spell" effect and as such is hedged out by an antimagic field. If an antimagic field is moved or cast onto him, he winks out, but he cannot enter the antimagic field, as it is impervious to him.

Yeah, i know it ISN'T a summoned creature, because the creature has to be pre-existing to be summoned, but for all intents and purposes in regards to an AMF, you basically have to treat it as a summoned creature, because it acts the same with an AMF. That's why I said is was essentially a summoned creature, that and to give the OP a feel for why it has to be treated as such.
Racinante
04-02-08, 12:30 PM Yeah, i know it ISN'T a summoned creature, because the creature has to be pre-existing to be summoned, but for all intents and purposes in regards to an AMF, you basically have to treat it as a summoned creature, because it acts the same with an AMF. That's why I said is was essentially a summoned creature, that and to give the OP a feel for why it has to be treated as such.

And my point was that it does not act the same as a summoned creature with regards to an AMF. A summoned creature can go into an AMF, but it winks out. An AC cannot go into an AMF at all. The AC winks out if an AMF is brought into existence with a range that includes the AC or if the AMF is moved onto the AC.
Eerongal
04-02-08, 12:39 PM And my point was that it does not act the same as a summoned creature with regards to an AMF. A summoned creature can go into an AMF, but it winks out. An AC cannot go into an AMF at all. The AC winks out if an AMF is brought into existence with a range that includes the AC or if the AMF is moved onto the AC.

There's no reason an AC can't move into an AMF (unless there's some stipulation with AC that I don't see). It's the same as a magical effect being brought into an area. That is, it ceases functioning while in the area. Which causes it to wink out akin to a summoned creature. There's nothing in AMF that prevents an ongoing magical effect from moving into an AMF, either under its own power or by someone physically moving it.
M-bark
04-02-08, 12:40 PM It all depends on how psionics is affected by anti-magic. If anti-magic works on psionics the same way it does as on magic, then the Astral Construct disappears until the AMF is gone (of course, the duration of the power must still go on after the AMF is gone).
Racinante
04-02-08, 12:58 PM There's no reason an AC can't move into an AMF (unless there's some stipulation with AC that I don't see). It's the same as a magical effect being brought into an area. That is, it ceases functioning while in the area. Which causes it to wink out akin to a summoned creature. There's nothing in AMF that prevents an ongoing magical effect from moving into an AMF, either under its own power or by someone physically moving it.

I am basing my statements on transparency and the following.

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells [powers] , spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.
AntiDjinn
04-02-08, 01:33 PM Depending on DM call, a special circumstance might exist for astral constructs large enough to be only partially in the AMF/NPF. The text says a creature that is large enough to extend beyond the field is not affected in the portions not covered. In most cases, having half a creature wink out of existence would be rather unfortunate for the creature, but constructs have no vital organs and no biology to disrupt. So technically, you could have half a construct. If the DM allows this option then he has to do the math: How many slam attacks does a partial construct have (how many primary limbs winked out)? Does it keep all its special menu picks (i.e., can it continue along its flight path with one wing gone, or does it fall, does it need a balance check to walk)? Are its hit points affected? On the plus side, the portion that is winked out does not exist and so is not available to be targeted with powers such as Dismiss Ectoplasm.

Personally, I would rule that the whole thing winks out if a portion of it crosses into such a field or give it a reflex save to wind up all on one side or the other. This is not strictly as stated for an AMF, but I would not then have to deal with: What if half my construct is winked out by an AMF and someone targets the other half with Time Hop?
Racinante
04-02-08, 02:49 PM Depending on DM call, a special circumstance might exist for astral constructs large enough to be only partially in the AMF/NPF. The text says a creature that is large enough to extend beyond the field is not affected in the portions not covered. In most cases, having half a creature wink out of existence would be rather unfortunate for the creature, but constructs have no vital organs and no biology to disrupt. So technically, you could have half a construct. If the DM allows this option then he has to do the math: How many slam attacks does a partial construct have (how many primary limbs winked out)? Does it keep all its special menu picks (i.e., can it continue along its flight path with one wing gone, or does it fall, does it need a balance check to walk)? Are its hit points affected? On the plus side, the portion that is winked out does not exist and so is not available to be targeted with powers such as Dismiss Ectoplasm.

Personally, I would rule that the whole thing winks out if a portion of it crosses into such a field or give it a reflex save to wind up all on one side or the other. This is not strictly as stated for an AMF, but I would not then have to deal with: What if half my construct is winked out by an AMF and someone targets the other half with Time Hop?

My belief here is that you are applying the phrase Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field. to summoned creatures, when it follows normal in a linear reading. I do not think this statement applies to summoned creatures of any size, as the statement Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. is absolute. Only normal creatures, i.e. not summoned, can actually enter the AMF per the spell.

By not allowing spells/powers like astral construct to enter the AMF most of the issues raised in your post are moot. By stipulating, as per AMF that the AC winks out if the AMF is moved onto or created overlapping the AC, the rest of the arguments are moot as well.

A giant or a dragon partially in an AMF, will have all of their magical effects available on that portion that exists outside of the field and none on that portion that exists inside the field, assuming SR was failed.
Jaid
04-02-08, 07:07 PM probably what the player is thinking is that it's not a summoned creature and is therefore not subject to effects that hedge out summoned creatures. (it does say something to that effect in the astral construct power, for the record).

the text in question is referring to spells such as protection from evil, which hedge out creatures, not to antimagic field. i would agree with the suggestions to handle antimagic field's effect on an astral construct as if the astral construct was summoned.
Part-Human2
04-02-08, 11:51 PM We could use a few more guys to chime in to make it official. The player says that constructs dont wink out.....[/I][/B] .

There is rules to support the player opinion.

The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures).

The argument being that an AC counts as a Construct that was imbued with "magic" during its creation process (manifesting the power) and it's not a summoned creature.

Obviously ignores
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
and
Effect: One created astral construct

I'd say they are suppressed in an antimagic field.
Eldritch_Lord
04-03-08, 12:36 AM The argument being that an AC counts as a Construct that was imbued with "magic" during its creation process (manifesting the power) and it's not a summoned creature.

Besides, that clause specifically states self-supporting golems, which an AC is most definitely no, given that (A) it has a duration and (B) the power can be dispelled.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heavenisme 04-01-08, 03:14 PM	Using transparency in our campaign and need to know what affect if any is there on Astral Constructs if they enter an Antimagic Field. Or if a creature with one comes in contact with them. My group waits patiently for your response. Thanks
Racinante 04-01-08, 04:23 PM	Astral Constructs cannot enter an anti-magic field and wink out of existence if placed in one, only to reappear when the field is gone. Duration continues to count, however, for the time the AC is gone.
heavenisme 04-02-08, 01:47 AM	We could use a few more guys to chime in to make it official. The player says that constructs dont wink out. I am posting here to clear it up for sure, so if anyone else would like to add a comment it would help. DM has game on hold until we get some concrete answers. . . .
Tempest Stormwind 04-02-08, 02:53 AM	Sorry for the delay. Constructs do definitely wink out in antimagic fields -- there's a power sustaining them (which has a duration that isn't instantaneous), and that power's suppressed in the field. Thus, the construct collapses. An argument can be made for the construct being destroyed by the field, but I consider that vindictive: Precedent suggests they wink out and return when the field leaves (not to mention the constructs are weak compared to summons and don't need another disadvantage...)
Racinante 04-02-08, 11:00 AM	We could use a few more guys to chime in to make it official. The player says that constructs dont wink out. I am posting here to clear it up for sure, so if anyone else would like to add a comment it would help. DM has game on hold until we get some concrete answers. . . . Unless he has some way of making the Astral Construct permanent, it will wink out. Golems and similar permanent constructs do not disappear.
Eerongal 04-02-08, 11:04 AM	because it has a duration and such, an AC is essentially a summoned creature, and treated as such inside of an AMF. Standard constructs (golems and such) do NOT wink out in AMFs because they are permanent creatures. Now if you were to summon a golem via a summoning spell, it would do the exact same as any other summoned creature. Same principle here.
Frozen_Flame 04-02-08, 11:19 AM	I agree with the above, they are summoned... If it really makes that much of a difference, you could say that the AC simply collapses into a pile of worthless ectoplasm, only to get reconstructed when the field no longer affects it.
Racinante 04-02-08, 11:40 AM	because it has a duration and such, an AC is essentially a summoned creature, and treated as such inside of an AMF. Standard constructs (golems and such) do NOT wink out in AMFs because they are permanent creatures. Now if you were to summon a golem via a summoning spell, it would do the exact same as any other summoned creature. Same principle here. Just to pick nits here. An AC is not essentially a summoned creature, as the AC does not exist anywhere outside of the power. The AC is a "spell" effect and as such is hedged out by an antimagic field. If an antimagic field is moved or cast onto him, he winks out, but he cannot enter the antimagic field, as it is impervious to him.
Eerongal 04-02-08, 12:16 PM	Just to pick nits here. An AC is not essentially a summoned creature, as the AC does not exist anywhere outside of the power. The AC is a "spell" effect and as such is hedged out by an antimagic field. If an antimagic field is moved or cast onto him, he winks out, but he cannot enter the antimagic field, as it is impervious to him. Yeah, i know it ISN'T a summoned creature, because the creature has to be pre-existing to be summoned, but for all intents and purposes in regards to an AMF, you basically have to treat it as a summoned creature, because it acts the same with an AMF. That's why I said is was essentially a summoned creature, that and to give the OP a feel for why it has to be treated as such.
Racinante 04-02-08, 12:30 PM	Yeah, i know it ISN'T a summoned creature, because the creature has to be pre-existing to be summoned, but for all intents and purposes in regards to an AMF, you basically have to treat it as a summoned creature, because it acts the same with an AMF. That's why I said is was essentially a summoned creature, that and to give the OP a feel for why it has to be treated as such. And my point was that it does not act the same as a summoned creature with regards to an AMF. A summoned creature can go into an AMF, but it winks out. An AC cannot go into an AMF at all. The AC winks out if an AMF is brought into existence with a range that includes the AC or if the AMF is moved onto the AC.
Eerongal 04-02-08, 12:39 PM	And my point was that it does not act the same as a summoned creature with regards to an AMF. A summoned creature can go into an AMF, but it winks out. An AC cannot go into an AMF at all. The AC winks out if an AMF is brought into existence with a range that includes the AC or if the AMF is moved onto the AC. There's no reason an AC can't move into an AMF (unless there's some stipulation with AC that I don't see). It's the same as a magical effect being brought into an area. That is, it ceases functioning while in the area. Which causes it to wink out akin to a summoned creature. There's nothing in AMF that prevents an ongoing magical effect from moving into an AMF, either under its own power or by someone physically moving it.
M-bark 04-02-08, 12:40 PM	It all depends on how psionics is affected by anti-magic. If anti-magic works on psionics the same way it does as on magic, then the Astral Construct disappears until the AMF is gone (of course, the duration of the power must still go on after the AMF is gone).
Racinante 04-02-08, 12:58 PM	There's no reason an AC can't move into an AMF (unless there's some stipulation with AC that I don't see). It's the same as a magical effect being brought into an area. That is, it ceases functioning while in the area. Which causes it to wink out akin to a summoned creature. There's nothing in AMF that prevents an ongoing magical effect from moving into an AMF, either under its own power or by someone physically moving it. I am basing my statements on transparency and the following. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells [powers] , spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.
AntiDjinn 04-02-08, 01:33 PM	Depending on DM call, a special circumstance might exist for astral constructs large enough to be only partially in the AMF/NPF. The text says a creature that is large enough to extend beyond the field is not affected in the portions not covered. In most cases, having half a creature wink out of existence would be rather unfortunate for the creature, but constructs have no vital organs and no biology to disrupt. So technically, you could have half a construct. If the DM allows this option then he has to do the math: How many slam attacks does a partial construct have (how many primary limbs winked out)? Does it keep all its special menu picks (i.e., can it continue along its flight path with one wing gone, or does it fall, does it need a balance check to walk)? Are its hit points affected? On the plus side, the portion that is winked out does not exist and so is not available to be targeted with powers such as Dismiss Ectoplasm. Personally, I would rule that the whole thing winks out if a portion of it crosses into such a field or give it a reflex save to wind up all on one side or the other. This is not strictly as stated for an AMF, but I would not then have to deal with: What if half my construct is winked out by an AMF and someone targets the other half with Time Hop?
Racinante 04-02-08, 02:49 PM	Depending on DM call, a special circumstance might exist for astral constructs large enough to be only partially in the AMF/NPF. The text says a creature that is large enough to extend beyond the field is not affected in the portions not covered. In most cases, having half a creature wink out of existence would be rather unfortunate for the creature, but constructs have no vital organs and no biology to disrupt. So technically, you could have half a construct. If the DM allows this option then he has to do the math: How many slam attacks does a partial construct have (how many primary limbs winked out)? Does it keep all its special menu picks (i.e., can it continue along its flight path with one wing gone, or does it fall, does it need a balance check to walk)? Are its hit points affected? On the plus side, the portion that is winked out does not exist and so is not available to be targeted with powers such as Dismiss Ectoplasm. Personally, I would rule that the whole thing winks out if a portion of it crosses into such a field or give it a reflex save to wind up all on one side or the other. This is not strictly as stated for an AMF, but I would not then have to deal with: What if half my construct is winked out by an AMF and someone targets the other half with Time Hop? My belief here is that you are applying the phrase Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field. to summoned creatures, when it follows normal in a linear reading. I do not think this statement applies to summoned creatures of any size, as the statement Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. is absolute. Only normal creatures, i.e. not summoned, can actually enter the AMF per the spell. By not allowing spells/powers like astral construct to enter the AMF most of the issues raised in your post are moot. By stipulating, as per AMF that the AC winks out if the AMF is moved onto or created overlapping the AC, the rest of the arguments are moot as well. A giant or a dragon partially in an AMF, will have all of their magical effects available on that portion that exists outside of the field and none on that portion that exists inside the field, assuming SR was failed.
Jaid 04-02-08, 07:07 PM	probably what the player is thinking is that it's not a summoned creature and is therefore not subject to effects that hedge out summoned creatures. (it does say something to that effect in the astral construct power, for the record). the text in question is referring to spells such as protection from evil, which hedge out creatures, not to antimagic field. i would agree with the suggestions to handle antimagic field's effect on an astral construct as if the astral construct was summoned.
Part-Human2 04-02-08, 11:51 PM	We could use a few more guys to chime in to make it official. The player says that constructs dont wink out.....[/I][/B] . There is rules to support the player opinion. The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). The argument being that an AC counts as a Construct that was imbued with "magic" during its creation process (manifesting the power) and it's not a summoned creature. Obviously ignores An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. and Effect: One created astral construct I'd say they are suppressed in an antimagic field.
Eldritch_Lord 04-03-08, 12:36 AM	The argument being that an AC counts as a Construct that was imbued with "magic" during its creation process (manifesting the power) and it's not a summoned creature. Besides, that clause specifically states self-supporting golems, which an AC is most definitely no, given that (A) it has a duration and (B) the power can be dispelled.