Astral Crystals? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Astral Crystals? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Ditto
06-20-07, 01:34 PM In on old campaign I was playing a Wilder / Constructor and wanted to create a item that could create an Astral Construct. (and hence save on PP for stuff ..)

So anyway, I got to crunching the numbers on it, and wanted to get some opinions from others on here. (ie weak, strong, balanced, how you might alter them .. whatever .. )
:tiphat:

First to start with .. the Base Items:

Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals:
This large container is usually fashioned from blue or green semiprecious stone. It is about 1 foot in diameter, half that deep, and relatively fragile. When the bowl is filled with fresh water, and certain words are spoken, a Large water elemental appears. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak. In all ways the bowl functions as the summon monster VI spell. Only one elemental can be called at a time. A new elemental requires the bowl to be filled with new water, which cannot happen until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain).
If salt water is used, the elemental is Huge rather than Large (as if summon monster VII had been cast).
Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster VII; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 3 lb.

Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals:
This device appears to be a normal container for holding burning coals. When a fire is lit in the brazier and the proper summoning words are spoken, a Large fire elemental appears. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak. In all ways the brazier functions as the summon monster VI spell. If brimstone is added, the elemental is Huge instead of Large, and the brazier works as a summon monster VII spell. Only one elemental can be summoned at a time. A new elemental requires a new fire, which cannot be lit until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain).
Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster VII; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.

Censer of Controlling Air Elementals:
This 6-inch-wide, 1-inch-high perforated golden vessel resembles a thurible found in a place of worship. If it is filled with incense and lit, summoning words spoken over it summon forth a Large air elemental. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak. In all ways the censer functions as the summon monster VI spell. If incense of meditation is burned within the censer, the air elemental is an elder air elemental instead (as if summon monster IX had just been cast). Only one elemental can be summoned at a time. A new elemental requires a new piece of incense, which cannot be lit until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain).
Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster IX; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals:
A stone of this nature is typically an oddly shaped bit of roughly polished rock.
The possessor of such a stone need but utter a few words of summoning, and a Huge earth elemental comes to the summoner. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak, and in all ways the stone functions as the summon monster VII spell. (If sand or rough, unhewn stone is the summoning medium, the elemental that comes is Large instead, and the stone functions as the summon monster VI spell.) The elemental appears in 1d4 rounds. Only one elemental can be summoned at a time. A new elemental requires a new patch of earth or stone, which cannot be accessed until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain).
Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster VII; Price 100,000 gp;Weight 5 lb.

Summary:
Censer of Controlling Air Elementals appears to be an exception .. and considering it’s priced the same, and yet has a higher caster level .. it will be ignored in the following calculations.

Caster Level: 13.
Spells: Summon Monster VI and VII.
Command Word activated.
1 full round to activate.
Appears in d4 rounds.
Requires appropriate element to summon.
Only 1 at a time can be in existence.
Unlimited uses per day.
Duration: 13 rounds.

Costing:
13 * 7 * 1800 = 163,800

Restrictions: ~61% (??)
163,800 * .61 = 99,918 gp

That gets us to the 100k price they list.

Since we won’t need the appropriate element (or maybe we need some "ectoplasm?" or crystals?), but other restrictions will be in place … we’ll use 70% (??).
(100% is normal value - no reductions ... 0% is "free". I'm trying err on the side of caution by going from ~60% to ~70%)

Astral Cystal
These crystals come in all sorts of various sizes, shapes and colors, often being mistaken for common gems or mundane minerals. Only by means of Detect Psionics, or other such means will reveal the true nature of this crystal. When the crystal is held in hand, and activated by infusing it with a small dose of psionic energy (use your psionic focus to activate - which takes 1 full round), the power within the crystal creates a small rip in the fabric between the Astral Plane and the plane the wielder is currently on (if possible). If the Astral does not connect with the wielder's current plane, then nothing happens. From within this small rip, the crystal pulls forth a chunk of ectoplasm and shapes it into an Astral Construct. This process takes d4 rounds. Only one construct can be formed at a time. The construct is under the control of the current wielder of the crystal, but otherwise behaves exactly like the Astral Construct power.
There are 3 types of crystals, Minor, Medium and Major.

Minor: This crystal summons a Level 1 Astral Construct with the Menu Pick: Celerity (+10 ft spd)
Faint Metacreativity; ML 3; Craft Univeral Item, Astral Construct; Price 4,000 (1 [PL] * 3 [ML] * 1800 * .7 = 3780 round to nearest 1000)

Medium: This crystal summons a Level 4 Astral Construct with the Menu Pick: Muscle (+4 Str)
Moderate Metacreativity; ML 7; Craft Univeral Item, Astral Construct; Price 35,000 (4 [PL] * 7 [ML] * 1800 * .7 = 35,280 round to nearest 1000).

Major: This crystal summons a Level 7 Astral Construct with the Menu Pick: Extreme Deflection (+8 deflection bonus to AC)
Strong Metacreativity; ML 13; Craft Univeral Item, Astral Construct; Price 115,000 (7 [PL] * 13 [ML] * 1800 * .7 = 114,660).

Then I got to thinking .. should these things have an additional requirement:

Add new crafting requirement:
Must be a Constructor.

Benefits – only apply if the wielder is a Constructor .. otherwise it remains as above.
- min/level duration, instead of round/level duration
- 1 more menu pick .. as if 1 Boost Construct feat:
Minor: Mobility
Medium: Improved Critical
Major: Dimension Slide

The question becomes - how to price it with that in mind?
20% increase in price?
or something else?
Bacris
06-20-07, 01:42 PM The item creation guidelines specify that if you have to be a certain class to use the item, that means a roughly 30% price reduction to the base price, so I would say you can add the Constructor-specific items without significantly altering cost.
Tempest Stormwind
06-20-07, 01:43 PM There was something similar in the Mind's Eye, actually... sling bullets of the construct. I don't have a link and am rather busy at the moment to search, but that might be a place to check out.
Racinante
06-20-07, 01:57 PM In on old campaign I was playing a Wilder / Constructor and wanted to create a item that could create an Astral Construct. (and hence save on PP for stuff ..)

So anyway, I got to crunching the numbers on it, and wanted to get some opinions from others on here. (ie weak, strong, balanced, how you might alter them .. whatever .. )
:tiphat:

First to start with .. the Base Items:

Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals:
Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals:
Censer of Controlling Air Elementals:
Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals:p;Weight 5 lb.

A more accurate pricing method is:
SM VI * 11th level * 50 charges *2 (100 charges or unlimited)=
6*11*750*2 = 99,000 gp (round to 100,000)
The_Ditto
06-20-07, 08:44 PM A more accurate pricing method is:
SM VI * 11th level * 50 charges *2 (100 charges or unlimited)=
6*11*750*2 = 99,000 gp (round to 100,000)

but unfortunately we'd use SM VII (since it's higher level)
and get:

7 * 13 * 750 * 2 = 136,500
which brings us back to that ~70% cost reduction ... (we'll 70% of base, or 30% "reduction" if I'm to use correct terms ... heh :D )
Racinante
06-20-07, 10:57 PM but unfortunately we'd use SM VII (since it's higher level)
and get:

7 * 13 * 750 * 2 = 136,500
which brings us back to that ~70% cost reduction ... (we'll 70% of base, or 30% "reduction" if I'm to use correct terms ... heh :D )

And what would be the reason for the ~30% reduction?
crizhII
06-21-07, 06:11 AM Costing:
13 * 7 * 1800 = 163,800

Restrictions: ~61% (??)
163,800 * .61 = 99,918 gp

That gets us to the 100k price they list.

Holy heck, don't use that logic over on Magic and Spells... :D

Base an item on the formula and give it discounts for limitations!

Sacrilege!!!
The_Ditto
06-21-07, 07:40 AM And what would be the reason for the ~30% reduction?

Simply trying to reverse engineer the actual cost of the item ..

The cost is 100k ... but the formula spits out: 136,500 ..

Obviously (?) they applied a discount for the various limitations on the item .. (d4 summoning time .. only 1 at a time? ... plan/material .. other?)

I'm only trying to reverse engineer the cost, then re-apply to Astral Construct ...

If I was only interested in creating a level 7 construct (as per SM VII in those items), I would just cost it at 100k and not even bother with a formula ... unfortunately, I'm an inquisitive sort, and also wanted smaller constructs ... so I need to reverse engineer it ...

:tiphat:

I'm thinking the costs I listed:

Minor: 4,000
Medium: 35,000
Major: 115,000

are reasonable ...
And I think I'm going to add:

Constructor pre-requisite to crafting.
And allow an additional (fixed) menu pick (as my previous post).
These things are definitely going to be "pre-programmed", no doubts about that.
Racinante
06-21-07, 11:10 AM There was something similar in the Mind's Eye, actually... sling bullets of the construct. I don't have a link and am rather busy at the moment to search, but that might be a place to check out.

The article, based on 3.0 rules, is located at:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c

Also included in that article is a Crystalline Construct, which is a once per day use of AC 5 for 10 rounds costed at 40,000 gp.

This seems excessive since figurines are generally costed at CL * ML * 1,800 gp (with simple modifications based on frequency of use and duration).

Based on my calculations, a figurine with unlimited uses (which gets close to what The_Ditto is trying to replicate with the braziers) would be:
Astral Construct 9 - 17 rounds each activation 275,400 gp.
Astral Construct 8 - 15 rounds each activation 216,000 gp.
Astral Construct 7 - 13 rounds each activation 163,800 gp.
Astral Construct 6 - 11 rounds each activation 118,800 gp.
Astral Construct 5 - 10 rounds each activation 90,000 gp (due to ML 10).
Astral Construct 4 - 10 rounds each activation 72,400 gp (due to ML 10).
Astral Construct 3 - 10 rounds each activation 54,000 gp (due to ML 10).
Astral Construct 2 - 10 rounds each activation 36,000 gp (due to ML 10).
Astral Construct 1 - 10 rounds each activation 18,000 gp (due to ML 10).

or for those with durations less than 10 rounds:

Astral Construct 5 - 9 rounds each activation 81,000 gp.
Astral Construct 4 - 7 rounds each activation 50,400 gp.
Astral Construct 3 - 5 rounds each activation 27,000 gp.
Astral Construct 2 - 3 rounds each activation 10,800 gp.
Astral Construct 1 - 3 rounds each activation 5,400 gp (due to ML 3).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Ditto 06-20-07, 01:34 PM	In on old campaign I was playing a Wilder / Constructor and wanted to create a item that could create an Astral Construct. (and hence save on PP for stuff ..) So anyway, I got to crunching the numbers on it, and wanted to get some opinions from others on here. (ie weak, strong, balanced, how you might alter them .. whatever .. ) :tiphat: First to start with .. the Base Items: Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals: This large container is usually fashioned from blue or green semiprecious stone. It is about 1 foot in diameter, half that deep, and relatively fragile. When the bowl is filled with fresh water, and certain words are spoken, a Large water elemental appears. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak. In all ways the bowl functions as the summon monster VI spell. Only one elemental can be called at a time. A new elemental requires the bowl to be filled with new water, which cannot happen until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain). If salt water is used, the elemental is Huge rather than Large (as if summon monster VII had been cast). Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster VII; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 3 lb. Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals: This device appears to be a normal container for holding burning coals. When a fire is lit in the brazier and the proper summoning words are spoken, a Large fire elemental appears. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak. In all ways the brazier functions as the summon monster VI spell. If brimstone is added, the elemental is Huge instead of Large, and the brazier works as a summon monster VII spell. Only one elemental can be summoned at a time. A new elemental requires a new fire, which cannot be lit until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain). Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster VII; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 5 lb. Censer of Controlling Air Elementals: This 6-inch-wide, 1-inch-high perforated golden vessel resembles a thurible found in a place of worship. If it is filled with incense and lit, summoning words spoken over it summon forth a Large air elemental. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak. In all ways the censer functions as the summon monster VI spell. If incense of meditation is burned within the censer, the air elemental is an elder air elemental instead (as if summon monster IX had just been cast). Only one elemental can be summoned at a time. A new elemental requires a new piece of incense, which cannot be lit until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain). Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster IX; Price 100,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals: A stone of this nature is typically an oddly shaped bit of roughly polished rock. The possessor of such a stone need but utter a few words of summoning, and a Huge earth elemental comes to the summoner. The summoning words require 1 full round to speak, and in all ways the stone functions as the summon monster VII spell. (If sand or rough, unhewn stone is the summoning medium, the elemental that comes is Large instead, and the stone functions as the summon monster VI spell.) The elemental appears in 1d4 rounds. Only one elemental can be summoned at a time. A new elemental requires a new patch of earth or stone, which cannot be accessed until after the first elemental disappears (is dispelled, dismissed, or slain). Strong conjuration; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI, summon monster VII; Price 100,000 gp;Weight 5 lb. Summary: Censer of Controlling Air Elementals appears to be an exception .. and considering it’s priced the same, and yet has a higher caster level .. it will be ignored in the following calculations. Caster Level: 13. Spells: Summon Monster VI and VII. Command Word activated. 1 full round to activate. Appears in d4 rounds. Requires appropriate element to summon. Only 1 at a time can be in existence. Unlimited uses per day. Duration: 13 rounds. Costing: 13 * 7 * 1800 = 163,800 Restrictions: ~61% (??) 163,800 * .61 = 99,918 gp That gets us to the 100k price they list. Since we won’t need the appropriate element (or maybe we need some "ectoplasm?" or crystals?), but other restrictions will be in place … we’ll use 70% (??). (100% is normal value - no reductions ... 0% is "free". I'm trying err on the side of caution by going from ~60% to ~70%) Astral Cystal These crystals come in all sorts of various sizes, shapes and colors, often being mistaken for common gems or mundane minerals. Only by means of Detect Psionics, or other such means will reveal the true nature of this crystal. When the crystal is held in hand, and activated by infusing it with a small dose of psionic energy (use your psionic focus to activate - which takes 1 full round), the power within the crystal creates a small rip in the fabric between the Astral Plane and the plane the wielder is currently on (if possible). If the Astral does not connect with the wielder's current plane, then nothing happens. From within this small rip, the crystal pulls forth a chunk of ectoplasm and shapes it into an Astral Construct. This process takes d4 rounds. Only one construct can be formed at a time. The construct is under the control of the current wielder of the crystal, but otherwise behaves exactly like the Astral Construct power. There are 3 types of crystals, Minor, Medium and Major. Minor: This crystal summons a Level 1 Astral Construct with the Menu Pick: Celerity (+10 ft spd) Faint Metacreativity; ML 3; Craft Univeral Item, Astral Construct; Price 4,000 (1 [PL] * 3 [ML] * 1800 * .7 = 3780 round to nearest 1000) Medium: This crystal summons a Level 4 Astral Construct with the Menu Pick: Muscle (+4 Str) Moderate Metacreativity; ML 7; Craft Univeral Item, Astral Construct; Price 35,000 (4 [PL] * 7 [ML] * 1800 * .7 = 35,280 round to nearest 1000). Major: This crystal summons a Level 7 Astral Construct with the Menu Pick: Extreme Deflection (+8 deflection bonus to AC) Strong Metacreativity; ML 13; Craft Univeral Item, Astral Construct; Price 115,000 (7 [PL] * 13 [ML] * 1800 * .7 = 114,660). Then I got to thinking .. should these things have an additional requirement: Add new crafting requirement: Must be a Constructor. Benefits – only apply if the wielder is a Constructor .. otherwise it remains as above. - min/level duration, instead of round/level duration - 1 more menu pick .. as if 1 Boost Construct feat: Minor: Mobility Medium: Improved Critical Major: Dimension Slide The question becomes - how to price it with that in mind? 20% increase in price? or something else?
Bacris 06-20-07, 01:42 PM	The item creation guidelines specify that if you have to be a certain class to use the item, that means a roughly 30% price reduction to the base price, so I would say you can add the Constructor-specific items without significantly altering cost.
Tempest Stormwind 06-20-07, 01:43 PM	There was something similar in the Mind's Eye, actually... sling bullets of the construct. I don't have a link and am rather busy at the moment to search, but that might be a place to check out.
Racinante 06-20-07, 01:57 PM	In on old campaign I was playing a Wilder / Constructor and wanted to create a item that could create an Astral Construct. (and hence save on PP for stuff ..) So anyway, I got to crunching the numbers on it, and wanted to get some opinions from others on here. (ie weak, strong, balanced, how you might alter them .. whatever .. ) :tiphat: First to start with .. the Base Items: Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals: Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals: Censer of Controlling Air Elementals: Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals:p;Weight 5 lb. A more accurate pricing method is: SM VI * 11th level * 50 charges 2 (100 charges or unlimited)= 6117502 = 99,000 gp (round to 100,000)
The_Ditto 06-20-07, 08:44 PM	A more accurate pricing method is: SM VI * 11th level * 50 charges 2 (100 charges or unlimited)= 6117502 = 99,000 gp (round to 100,000) but unfortunately we'd use SM VII (since it's higher level) and get: 7 * 13 * 750 * 2 = 136,500 which brings us back to that ~70% cost reduction ... (we'll 70% of base, or 30% "reduction" if I'm to use correct terms ... heh :D )
Racinante 06-20-07, 10:57 PM	but unfortunately we'd use SM VII (since it's higher level) and get: 7 * 13 * 750 * 2 = 136,500 which brings us back to that ~70% cost reduction ... (we'll 70% of base, or 30% "reduction" if I'm to use correct terms ... heh :D ) And what would be the reason for the ~30% reduction?
crizhII 06-21-07, 06:11 AM	Costing: 13 * 7 * 1800 = 163,800 Restrictions: ~61% (??) 163,800 * .61 = 99,918 gp That gets us to the 100k price they list. Holy heck, don't use that logic over on Magic and Spells... :D Base an item on the formula and give it discounts for limitations! Sacrilege!!!
The_Ditto 06-21-07, 07:40 AM	And what would be the reason for the ~30% reduction? Simply trying to reverse engineer the actual cost of the item .. The cost is 100k ... but the formula spits out: 136,500 .. Obviously (?) they applied a discount for the various limitations on the item .. (d4 summoning time .. only 1 at a time? ... plan/material .. other?) I'm only trying to reverse engineer the cost, then re-apply to Astral Construct ... If I was only interested in creating a level 7 construct (as per SM VII in those items), I would just cost it at 100k and not even bother with a formula ... unfortunately, I'm an inquisitive sort, and also wanted smaller constructs ... so I need to reverse engineer it ... :tiphat: I'm thinking the costs I listed: Minor: 4,000 Medium: 35,000 Major: 115,000 are reasonable ... And I think I'm going to add: Constructor pre-requisite to crafting. And allow an additional (fixed) menu pick (as my previous post). These things are definitely going to be "pre-programmed", no doubts about that.
Racinante 06-21-07, 11:10 AM	There was something similar in the Mind's Eye, actually... sling bullets of the construct. I don't have a link and am rather busy at the moment to search, but that might be a place to check out. The article, based on 3.0 rules, is located at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c Also included in that article is a Crystalline Construct, which is a once per day use of AC 5 for 10 rounds costed at 40,000 gp. This seems excessive since figurines are generally costed at CL * ML * 1,800 gp (with simple modifications based on frequency of use and duration). Based on my calculations, a figurine with unlimited uses (which gets close to what The_Ditto is trying to replicate with the braziers) would be: Astral Construct 9 - 17 rounds each activation 275,400 gp. Astral Construct 8 - 15 rounds each activation 216,000 gp. Astral Construct 7 - 13 rounds each activation 163,800 gp. Astral Construct 6 - 11 rounds each activation 118,800 gp. Astral Construct 5 - 10 rounds each activation 90,000 gp (due to ML 10). Astral Construct 4 - 10 rounds each activation 72,400 gp (due to ML 10). Astral Construct 3 - 10 rounds each activation 54,000 gp (due to ML 10). Astral Construct 2 - 10 rounds each activation 36,000 gp (due to ML 10). Astral Construct 1 - 10 rounds each activation 18,000 gp (due to ML 10). or for those with durations less than 10 rounds: Astral Construct 5 - 9 rounds each activation 81,000 gp. Astral Construct 4 - 7 rounds each activation 50,400 gp. Astral Construct 3 - 5 rounds each activation 27,000 gp. Astral Construct 2 - 3 rounds each activation 10,800 gp. Astral Construct 1 - 3 rounds each activation 5,400 gp (due to ML 3).