Autohypnosis for non-psions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Autohypnosis for non-psions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
elliot
07-04-07, 08:30 PM My group and I have an argument going, and while no one will side with me unless an "official WotC" ruling is made, I want to open this up for others.

The 3.5 expanded psionics book has the skill Autohypnosis no longer listing psion only. It lists all skills in the section as psionic related, but not psion only. My argument is that autohypnosis is basically a self-induced quasi-trance state. You convince your mind of something, such as remembering information or forgetting that a caltrop has hurt your foot. A basic mind over matter issue.

They say that only a psionic character could possibly use this skill. That you must be a psion to actively control your mind like that. They also argue that no one other then a psion could use "Use Psionic Device", but that is another argument there.

What do other's think? Could a non-psion, with practice, learn to use the skill? It becoming a cross-class skill until you take a psion class with it as a class skill? Or am I just read things wrong?
Azzy
07-04-07, 08:57 PM My group and I have an argument going, and while no one will side with me unless an "official WotC" ruling is made, I want to open this up for others.

The 3.5 expanded psionics book has the skill Autohypnosis no longer listing psion only. It lists all skills in the section as psionic related, but not psion only. My argument is that autohypnosis is basically a self-induced quasi-trance state. You convince your mind of something, such as remembering information or forgetting that a caltrop has hurt your foot. A basic mind over matter issue.

They say that only a psionic character could possibly use this skill. That you must be a psion to actively control your mind like that. They also argue that no one other then a psion could use "Use Psionic Device", but that is another argument there.

What do other's think? Could a non-psion, with practice, learn to use the skill? It becoming a cross-class skill until you take a psion class with it as a class skill? Or am I just read things wrong?

Okay, here you go:

1) There are no "restricted" skills in 3.5. That's something that went away in 3.0. The closest you get to that is the Craft (alchemy) skill that specifically calls out: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster."

2) The Autohypgnosis skill description does not call out that it can only be used by psionic characters. Nor does it require a character to be psionically focused or the use of power points.

So, they have no ground to stand on when they say that non-psionic characters cannot take the Autohypgnosis skill.

And, because you did bring up the subject....

Unless they also argue that no one other then a spellcaster could use Use Magic Device, they have no reason to suggest that non-psionic characters cannot use Use Psionic Device.
kyeudo
07-04-07, 08:57 PM Autohypnosis and Use Psionic Device are class skills for only psionics characters. This doesn't mean that they are only usable by only psionic characters. Assuming such is like assuming that since Fighters dont have spot as a class skill, they cant spot anything.

In fact, Use Psionic Device is almost useless to a psion. He already can use almost all psionic devices by nature of his class list. A rogue, however, can get great utility out of it, should he be willing to spend the skill ranks to aquire the skill.

Those skills are trained only, but once you have the training, it doesn't matter what your class is.
glacialcat
07-04-07, 09:25 PM And if you have access to Dungeonscape, the Factotum base class has access to every skill as a class skill. It doesn't say "every skill except Autohypnosis and Use Psionic Device." It has every skill as a class skill, including those two. But it has no psionic abilities itself.
calronmoonflower
07-04-07, 10:12 PM the savant from the Dragon Compendium also has Autohypnosis as a class skill.

The prestige class exemplar also has it.

Both these list ALL as the class skill list.
CrimsonDeath
07-04-07, 10:28 PM The Exemplar prestiege class also has "all skills" as class skills.
runestar
07-04-07, 10:45 PM Human paragon can access auto hypnosis as a class skill as well.:)
Amaril
07-04-07, 11:05 PM According to Dragonmarked, House Sivis Gnomes use autohypnosis to forget messages they transcribe from speaking stones.
Tempest Stormwind
07-04-07, 11:12 PM According to Dragonmarked, House Sivis Gnomes use autohypnosis to forget messages they transcribe from speaking stones.

That book also notes that Concentration can do something similar, which is nifty.
Nom
07-05-07, 12:31 AM The class skill issue with Autohypnosis is that it probably should have been retroactively added to the monk list, and possibly the bard.

As for the actual question, skills are skills, and they are either class skills or cross class skills. As long as they are willing to pay the normal 2 for 1 for cross class skills, there's nothing stopping any character learning autohypnosis (or psicraft or UPD or UMD or Spellcraft or ...).
Azzy
07-05-07, 01:25 AM The class skill issue with Autohypnosis is that it probably should have been retroactively added to the monk list, and possibly the bard.

Indeed, the XPH should have made the new skills class skills for some of the classes in the PHB. My vote goes for:

Autohypnosis: Monk*
Knowledge (psionics): Bard, wizard**
Psicraft: —
Use Psionic Device: Bard, rogue.***

* And possibly bard, as Nom suggests.
** Which they already get by virtue to having any Knowledge skill as a class skill.
*** Personally, I think that UMD and UPD should be rolled into the same skill.

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?
Tempest Stormwind
07-05-07, 01:28 AM Indeed, the XPH should have made the new skills class skills for some of the classes in the PHB. My vote goes for:

Autohypnosis: Monk*
Knowledge (psionics): Bard, wizard
Psicraft: —
Use Psionic Device: Bard, rogue.

* And possibly bard, as Nom suggests.

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?Yes. Here's what I use.

Use Psionic Device is renamed Use Magic Device. The two skills are 100% equivalent. If there's no problems with a wizard using a holy relic or a priest with a mage's staff, then there's no problem with either of them using a power stone or a psionicist using their equipment.

Knowledge needs no adjustment since bards and wizards have "all knowledge skills" already.

Autohypnosis: Either give it to the monk or roll all of it into Concentration. Change the ability it's keyed to -- Concentration's uses as is are Constitution, most of Autohypnosis remains Wisdom, "memorize" becomes Intelligence (since when did wisdom relate to mnemonics and Mentat-style memory?). They all still use the same ranks.

Psicraft can function as Spellcraft, possibly with a -4 penalty. (Apply the penalty between arcane and divine as well if you want; I suggest it even if they are fully transparent.)
Azzy
07-05-07, 01:41 AM Wow. You must have replied immediately after I posted my post, because I edited it dissatifaction in less than 3 seconds after I initially posted it. :)
MnemonicSV
07-05-07, 04:54 AM Autohypnosis: Monk*
Knowledge (psionics): Bard, wizard**
Psicraft: —
Use Psionic Device: Bard, rogue.***

* And possibly bard, as Nom suggests.
** Which they already get by virtue to having any Knowledge skill as a class skill.
*** Personally, I think that UMD and UPD should be rolled into the same skill.

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

I am all in favour of retroactive skill list revisions. :D

In preparing for a psi-only campaign, one of the very first things I did was add Autohypnosis to the Monk class skill list. This skill is just screaming "monk" after all. Same for any PrClasses which are monk-ish. Works well with their Concentration synergy.

I'm not a big fan of folding Autohypnosis into Concentration though. I just don't feel that having the ability to focus well should give a person the training to accomplish what Autohypnosis can do. Besides, what with the appended psionic focus rules for Concentration in the XPH, the skill would start to get a little "bulky" with Autohypnosis thrown into it as well.

Monks IMC also gained Knowledge (Psionics). Of course, in a psi-only campaign they lost Knowledge (Arcana), so this was really more of a replacement than an addition I suppose.

Also added Use Psionic Device to the class skill list of any class which was entitled to Use Magic Device (again, more a replacement than addition in my case). The very idea that a rogue wouldn't have access to UPD in a psionic campaign just seems odd to me, psi-only campaign or not.
Khadmus
07-05-07, 06:31 AM Houserules are fun.
Nom
07-05-07, 06:44 PM Even under the transparency rules, there's a place for Psicraft vs Spellcraft. But having UMD and UPD seems gratuitous. It's "fudge magic item", and making psionic items "not magic" seems a pointless distinction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elliot 07-04-07, 08:30 PM	My group and I have an argument going, and while no one will side with me unless an "official WotC" ruling is made, I want to open this up for others. The 3.5 expanded psionics book has the skill Autohypnosis no longer listing psion only. It lists all skills in the section as psionic related, but not psion only. My argument is that autohypnosis is basically a self-induced quasi-trance state. You convince your mind of something, such as remembering information or forgetting that a caltrop has hurt your foot. A basic mind over matter issue. They say that only a psionic character could possibly use this skill. That you must be a psion to actively control your mind like that. They also argue that no one other then a psion could use "Use Psionic Device", but that is another argument there. What do other's think? Could a non-psion, with practice, learn to use the skill? It becoming a cross-class skill until you take a psion class with it as a class skill? Or am I just read things wrong?
Azzy 07-04-07, 08:57 PM	My group and I have an argument going, and while no one will side with me unless an "official WotC" ruling is made, I want to open this up for others. The 3.5 expanded psionics book has the skill Autohypnosis no longer listing psion only. It lists all skills in the section as psionic related, but not psion only. My argument is that autohypnosis is basically a self-induced quasi-trance state. You convince your mind of something, such as remembering information or forgetting that a caltrop has hurt your foot. A basic mind over matter issue. They say that only a psionic character could possibly use this skill. That you must be a psion to actively control your mind like that. They also argue that no one other then a psion could use "Use Psionic Device", but that is another argument there. What do other's think? Could a non-psion, with practice, learn to use the skill? It becoming a cross-class skill until you take a psion class with it as a class skill? Or am I just read things wrong? Okay, here you go: 1) There are no "restricted" skills in 3.5. That's something that went away in 3.0. The closest you get to that is the Craft (alchemy) skill that specifically calls out: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." 2) The Autohypgnosis skill description does not call out that it can only be used by psionic characters. Nor does it require a character to be psionically focused or the use of power points. So, they have no ground to stand on when they say that non-psionic characters cannot take the Autohypgnosis skill. And, because you did bring up the subject.... Unless they also argue that no one other then a spellcaster could use Use Magic Device, they have no reason to suggest that non-psionic characters cannot use Use Psionic Device.
kyeudo 07-04-07, 08:57 PM	Autohypnosis and Use Psionic Device are class skills for only psionics characters. This doesn't mean that they are only usable by only psionic characters. Assuming such is like assuming that since Fighters dont have spot as a class skill, they cant spot anything. In fact, Use Psionic Device is almost useless to a psion. He already can use almost all psionic devices by nature of his class list. A rogue, however, can get great utility out of it, should he be willing to spend the skill ranks to aquire the skill. Those skills are trained only, but once you have the training, it doesn't matter what your class is.
glacialcat 07-04-07, 09:25 PM	And if you have access to Dungeonscape, the Factotum base class has access to every skill as a class skill. It doesn't say "every skill except Autohypnosis and Use Psionic Device." It has every skill as a class skill, including those two. But it has no psionic abilities itself.
calronmoonflower 07-04-07, 10:12 PM	the savant from the Dragon Compendium also has Autohypnosis as a class skill. The prestige class exemplar also has it. Both these list ALL as the class skill list.
CrimsonDeath 07-04-07, 10:28 PM	The Exemplar prestiege class also has "all skills" as class skills.
runestar 07-04-07, 10:45 PM	Human paragon can access auto hypnosis as a class skill as well.:)
Amaril 07-04-07, 11:05 PM	According to Dragonmarked, House Sivis Gnomes use autohypnosis to forget messages they transcribe from speaking stones.
Tempest Stormwind 07-04-07, 11:12 PM	According to Dragonmarked, House Sivis Gnomes use autohypnosis to forget messages they transcribe from speaking stones. That book also notes that Concentration can do something similar, which is nifty.
Nom 07-05-07, 12:31 AM	The class skill issue with Autohypnosis is that it probably should have been retroactively added to the monk list, and possibly the bard. As for the actual question, skills are skills, and they are either class skills or cross class skills. As long as they are willing to pay the normal 2 for 1 for cross class skills, there's nothing stopping any character learning autohypnosis (or psicraft or UPD or UMD or Spellcraft or ...).
Azzy 07-05-07, 01:25 AM	The class skill issue with Autohypnosis is that it probably should have been retroactively added to the monk list, and possibly the bard. Indeed, the XPH should have made the new skills class skills for some of the classes in the PHB. My vote goes for: Autohypnosis: Monk* Knowledge (psionics): Bard, wizard Psicraft: — Use Psionic Device: Bard, rogue.* * And possibly bard, as Nom suggests. Which they already get by virtue to having any Knowledge skill as a class skill. * Personally, I think that UMD and UPD should be rolled into the same skill. Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-07, 01:28 AM	Indeed, the XPH should have made the new skills class skills for some of the classes in the PHB. My vote goes for: Autohypnosis: Monk* Knowledge (psionics): Bard, wizard Psicraft: — Use Psionic Device: Bard, rogue. * And possibly bard, as Nom suggests. Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?Yes. Here's what I use. Use Psionic Device is renamed Use Magic Device. The two skills are 100% equivalent. If there's no problems with a wizard using a holy relic or a priest with a mage's staff, then there's no problem with either of them using a power stone or a psionicist using their equipment. Knowledge needs no adjustment since bards and wizards have "all knowledge skills" already. Autohypnosis: Either give it to the monk or roll all of it into Concentration. Change the ability it's keyed to -- Concentration's uses as is are Constitution, most of Autohypnosis remains Wisdom, "memorize" becomes Intelligence (since when did wisdom relate to mnemonics and Mentat-style memory?). They all still use the same ranks. Psicraft can function as Spellcraft, possibly with a -4 penalty. (Apply the penalty between arcane and divine as well if you want; I suggest it even if they are fully transparent.)
Azzy 07-05-07, 01:41 AM	Wow. You must have replied immediately after I posted my post, because I edited it dissatifaction in less than 3 seconds after I initially posted it. :)
MnemonicSV 07-05-07, 04:54 AM	Autohypnosis: Monk* Knowledge (psionics): Bard, wizard Psicraft: — Use Psionic Device: Bard, rogue.* * And possibly bard, as Nom suggests. Which they already get by virtue to having any Knowledge skill as a class skill. * Personally, I think that UMD and UPD should be rolled into the same skill. Anyone else have an opinion on the matter? I am all in favour of retroactive skill list revisions. :D In preparing for a psi-only campaign, one of the very first things I did was add Autohypnosis to the Monk class skill list. This skill is just screaming "monk" after all. Same for any PrClasses which are monk-ish. Works well with their Concentration synergy. I'm not a big fan of folding Autohypnosis into Concentration though. I just don't feel that having the ability to focus well should give a person the training to accomplish what Autohypnosis can do. Besides, what with the appended psionic focus rules for Concentration in the XPH, the skill would start to get a little "bulky" with Autohypnosis thrown into it as well. Monks IMC also gained Knowledge (Psionics). Of course, in a psi-only campaign they lost Knowledge (Arcana), so this was really more of a replacement than an addition I suppose. Also added Use Psionic Device to the class skill list of any class which was entitled to Use Magic Device (again, more a replacement than addition in my case). The very idea that a rogue wouldn't have access to UPD in a psionic campaign just seems odd to me, psi-only campaign or not.
Khadmus 07-05-07, 06:31 AM	Houserules are fun.
Nom 07-05-07, 06:44 PM	Even under the transparency rules, there's a place for Psicraft vs Spellcraft. But having UMD and UPD seems gratuitous. It's "fudge magic item", and making psionic items "not magic" seems a pointless distinction.