Balancing Psionics in Campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing Psionics in Campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Guyver027
04-10-07, 01:14 PM I know there have been several topics on this before... but I am just looking for some input on balancing psionics in a campaign... In this campaign pretty much anythig goes as long as it's by the book 3.5stuff... Trouble is when doing this psionic characters don't seem to place well... Insome aspects they are over-powered and some under... What I have been doing recently for monster type encounters anyway is just adding psionic resistance to any creature that has spell resistance and raising it's cr by1... Trouble is people argue that the best way to incorperate psionics is to just treat it as it's own type of spell casting... making it:divine;arcane;psionic... Which works better? Some players have argued that spellcasting class features and spells, were not really intended to effect psionic creatures or counter psionic effects... were as in a lot of cases, psionic creatures and classes seem to effect magic just as well as psionic... I aggree with both to a point... Any comments, Idea's or suggestions?
carnivore
04-10-07, 01:24 PM notice this:
COMBINING PSIONIC AND MAGICAL EFFECTS
The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.
Psionics-Magic Transparency: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.
When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.
Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)
All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.
The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).
Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

Multiple Effects: Powers or psionic effects usually work as described no matter how many other powers, psionic effects, spells, or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a power does not affect the way another power or spell operates. Whenever a power has a specific effect on other powers or spells, the power description explains the effect (and vice versa for spells that affect powers). Several other general rules apply when powers, spells, magical effects, or psionic effects operate in the same place.

Stacking Effects: Powers that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different powers, or one from a power and one from a spell. You use whichever bonus gives you the better result.

Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different powers, or a power and a spell, stack if the effects are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named (just a “+2 bonus” rather than a “+2 insight bonus”) stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired).

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, a power can render another power irrelevant.

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes psionic or magical effects that establish mental control render one another irrelevant. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with one another, though one may modify another. If a creature is under the control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Powers and Spells with Opposite Effects: Powers and spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some powers and spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a power’s or spell’s description.

Instantaneous Effects: Two or more magical or psionic effects with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same object, place, or creature.

:D
Calain80
04-10-07, 01:45 PM In the XPH is also a version of diminished transparency, if you do not like full transparency (witch is preferable, as all other methods require a lot more bookkeeping and situational DM-ruling).
I would reduce the PR penalty to -5 instead of -10 and it should work in most cases.
Tempest Stormwind
04-10-07, 01:49 PM Carnivore's right (by quoting WAY more of the rules than he needs to, as usual, but it's good to be complete). Just use full psionics-magic transparency. There will be no problems unless someone starts breaking the rules.

Incidentally, this was covered in the FAQ at the top of the forum.

One last thing: The use of paragraphs does NOT carry a surgeon general's warning relating to impotence. You can use them and still have fun.
Guyver027
04-10-07, 01:55 PM Is there an actual book refence to Magic-psionic transperancy rule in the XPH? Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject.
ppirilla
04-10-07, 02:29 PM XPH 55 has pretty much what was quoted. XPH 63 is the psionics is different suggestions. I believe there is also a small paragraph on the subject in the DMG
Tempest Stormwind
04-10-07, 02:46 PM If you have an issue with transparency, ask yourself this:

Why can a mere wizard's calculations undo the will of the gods? Why can a cleric just as easily decipher an arcane spell's components (which he may never have seen) as the prayers he grew up surrounded by?

As written, arcane magic and divine magic are BEYOND transparent -- they even use the same feats and skills.
Nephlite
04-10-07, 02:59 PM What I have been doing recently for monster type encounters anyway is just adding psionic resistance to any creature that has spell resistance

That is the default ruling. Anything else is a house rule.

and raising it's cr by1...

Why?

Trouble is people argue that the best way to incorperate psionics is to just treat it as it's own type of spell casting... making it:divine;arcane;psionic... Which works better? Some players have argued that spellcasting class features and spells, were not really intended to effect psionic creatures or counter psionic effects... were as in a lot of cases, psionic creatures and classes seem to effect magic just as well as psionic... I aggree with both to a point... Any comments, Idea's or suggestions?

I perfer it is mind magic and leave it at that. SR=PR. Dispel Psionics works on Magic, etc.
PhaedrusXY
04-10-07, 11:33 PM Is there an actual book refence to Magic-psionic transperancy rule in the XPH? Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject.The SRD, which Carnivore quoted, contains the exact same rules as the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Expanded Psionics, and Epic Handbooks. Plus they add the latest Errata in there, so in many ways those are actually more authoritative rules than the actual books.

They only leave out a few "non-open gaming" things, like wealth tables, a few monsters (Mind Flayers), and other similiar things. The main rules are all in there, though.
Lycanthromancer
04-11-07, 11:41 AM Non-transparency should never have been added to the XPHB, and certain parts of the psionics system (namely, power resistance) should have the same terms as magic (ie, spell resistance). Granted, using words like psi-like abilities and PR gives it extra flavor (and makes it seem like more than just a new magic system), but it would've cleared up so many problems.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Guyver027 04-10-07, 01:14 PM	I know there have been several topics on this before... but I am just looking for some input on balancing psionics in a campaign... In this campaign pretty much anythig goes as long as it's by the book 3.5stuff... Trouble is when doing this psionic characters don't seem to place well... Insome aspects they are over-powered and some under... What I have been doing recently for monster type encounters anyway is just adding psionic resistance to any creature that has spell resistance and raising it's cr by1... Trouble is people argue that the best way to incorperate psionics is to just treat it as it's own type of spell casting... making it:divine;arcane;psionic... Which works better? Some players have argued that spellcasting class features and spells, were not really intended to effect psionic creatures or counter psionic effects... were as in a lot of cases, psionic creatures and classes seem to effect magic just as well as psionic... I aggree with both to a point... Any comments, Idea's or suggestions?
carnivore 04-10-07, 01:24 PM	notice this: COMBINING PSIONIC AND MAGICAL EFFECTS The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. Psionics-Magic Transparency: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas. Multiple Effects: Powers or psionic effects usually work as described no matter how many other powers, psionic effects, spells, or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a power does not affect the way another power or spell operates. Whenever a power has a specific effect on other powers or spells, the power description explains the effect (and vice versa for spells that affect powers). Several other general rules apply when powers, spells, magical effects, or psionic effects operate in the same place. Stacking Effects: Powers that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different powers, or one from a power and one from a spell. You use whichever bonus gives you the better result. Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different powers, or a power and a spell, stack if the effects are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named (just a “+2 bonus” rather than a “+2 insight bonus”) stacks with any bonus. Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired). Same Effect with Differing Results: The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts. One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, a power can render another power irrelevant. Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes psionic or magical effects that establish mental control render one another irrelevant. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with one another, though one may modify another. If a creature is under the control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys. Powers and Spells with Opposite Effects: Powers and spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some powers and spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a power’s or spell’s description. Instantaneous Effects: Two or more magical or psionic effects with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same object, place, or creature. :D
Calain80 04-10-07, 01:45 PM	In the XPH is also a version of diminished transparency, if you do not like full transparency (witch is preferable, as all other methods require a lot more bookkeeping and situational DM-ruling). I would reduce the PR penalty to -5 instead of -10 and it should work in most cases.
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-07, 01:49 PM	Carnivore's right (by quoting WAY more of the rules than he needs to, as usual, but it's good to be complete). Just use full psionics-magic transparency. There will be no problems unless someone starts breaking the rules. Incidentally, this was covered in the FAQ at the top of the forum. One last thing: The use of paragraphs does NOT carry a surgeon general's warning relating to impotence. You can use them and still have fun.
Guyver027 04-10-07, 01:55 PM	Is there an actual book refence to Magic-psionic transperancy rule in the XPH? Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject.
ppirilla 04-10-07, 02:29 PM	XPH 55 has pretty much what was quoted. XPH 63 is the psionics is different suggestions. I believe there is also a small paragraph on the subject in the DMG
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-07, 02:46 PM	If you have an issue with transparency, ask yourself this: Why can a mere wizard's calculations undo the will of the gods? Why can a cleric just as easily decipher an arcane spell's components (which he may never have seen) as the prayers he grew up surrounded by? As written, arcane magic and divine magic are BEYOND transparent -- they even use the same feats and skills.
Nephlite 04-10-07, 02:59 PM	What I have been doing recently for monster type encounters anyway is just adding psionic resistance to any creature that has spell resistance That is the default ruling. Anything else is a house rule. and raising it's cr by1... Why? Trouble is people argue that the best way to incorperate psionics is to just treat it as it's own type of spell casting... making it:divine;arcane;psionic... Which works better? Some players have argued that spellcasting class features and spells, were not really intended to effect psionic creatures or counter psionic effects... were as in a lot of cases, psionic creatures and classes seem to effect magic just as well as psionic... I aggree with both to a point... Any comments, Idea's or suggestions? I perfer it is mind magic and leave it at that. SR=PR. Dispel Psionics works on Magic, etc.
PhaedrusXY 04-10-07, 11:33 PM	Is there an actual book refence to Magic-psionic transperancy rule in the XPH? Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject.The SRD, which Carnivore quoted, contains the exact same rules as the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Expanded Psionics, and Epic Handbooks. Plus they add the latest Errata in there, so in many ways those are actually more authoritative rules than the actual books. They only leave out a few "non-open gaming" things, like wealth tables, a few monsters (Mind Flayers), and other similiar things. The main rules are all in there, though.
Lycanthromancer 04-11-07, 11:41 AM	Non-transparency should never have been added to the XPHB, and certain parts of the psionics system (namely, power resistance) should have the same terms as magic (ie, spell resistance). Granted, using words like psi-like abilities and PR gives it extra flavor (and makes it seem like more than just a new magic system), but it would've cleared up so many problems.