Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pud 05-24-07, 01:56 AM	Energy Missile vs Crystal Shard What is the best damage dealing power available? Energy Missile - auto-hit, save for half-damage, stopped by power resistance. Crystal Shard - ray requires successful attack, no save, no power resistance.
Tempest Stormwind 05-24-07, 02:15 AM	Both are completely nullified by a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. ;) It depends how much effort you want to put into the blast. I'm not talking about power points here; I'm talking about creative effort. For energy damage, if you're lazy, energy missile is probably the best one around. If you aren't lazy, my money's on energy conversion due to its phenominal efficiency (each ray you shoot is essentially an average-damage Energy Ray augmented to your manifester level, although it lacks the special adjustments of an energy power's energy type) and that it can be shared with a psicrystal. Just figure out how to charge it (my favorite cheapie if time isn't a factor is to volunteer to hold the party torch -- by the wrong end. If time IS a factor, then use Energy Wall). For non-energy direct damage, again, if you're uncreative, either crystal shard, hail of crystals, or psionic disintegrate (maybe; that last one's a gamble but has out of combat uses as well). If you're more creative, you have more options open. I haven't thought about it all that much, but for raw one-shot damage in the line of the above, my gut instinct says telekinetic thrust. Of course, if you're beyond level 9 or so, crippling powers have more of an impact on combat itself. Psionics lacks as many good save-or-dies, but makes up for it with incredible crippling effects, especially on the telepath and shaper lists. Alternatively, Metamorphosis or Astral Construct could dish out better damage over their duration than any of the above options (though the former is considered unsporting by Wizards; the idea of shapechanging still holds this point, however).
Friendlyfish 05-24-07, 02:41 AM	Of course, if you're beyond level 9 or so, crippling powers have more of an impact on combat itself. Psionics lacks as many good save-or-dies, but makes up for it with incredible crippling effects, especially on the telepath and shaper lists. Alternatively, Metamorphosis or Astral Construct could dish out better damage over their duration than any of the above options (though the former is considered unsporting by Wizards; the idea of shapechanging still holds this point, however). What crippling powers are these that you're thinking of? I'm looking at the list and not seeing the incredible, unless by crippling you mean ability damage.
Tempest Stormwind 05-24-07, 11:26 AM	What crippling powers are these that you're thinking of? I'm looking at the list and not seeing the incredible, unless by crippling you mean ability damage.Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Crystallize, Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon on the Shaper list, Aversion, Suggestion, Crisis of Breath, False Sensory Input, Dominate, Crisis of Life on the Telepath list. You just need to know when to apply them. Ectoplasmic Cocoon, for instance, is an example of these. Check it out and you'll see why -- it doesn't just freeze an opponent, it also blocks any form of contact or targeting (effectively blocking line of effect between that target and the outside world), locks down any form of physical movement up to and including speech, actually drags flying creatures down (note how it doesn't say the creature needs wings for the fall to happen), and is completely immune to dispelling. The biggest line is that the creature cannot be harmed or interacted with unless the cocoon is destroyed, which in turn lets you use it defensively as well as offensively (not always the best option, but an option nevertheless). The easiest way to take one out is by a massive damage blast (Note that spells by default don't ignore hardness the way they ignore DR, meaning sonic energy powers are the best at this) or by using a purely mental teleportation effect that doesn't rely on the ethereal plane. Thus, if you're using it against psionic manifesters, you should probably find a better power, but against the vast majority of what you'll meet? That's just an example of what I'm talking about.
Bukowski 05-24-07, 12:34 PM	If you don't need to worry about DR and are fighting living creatures, I always find telekinetic thrust and a quiver full of poisoned arrows to be a hoot.
hovnarr 05-24-07, 12:46 PM	Crystal shard is better against single target with immunities, typically the BBEG. Energy Missile is better at clearing out rooms and stuff. If you're looking for bang-for-back though, Metamorphosis and Energy Conversion are better choices. Metamorphosis: Hydra form offers many attacks and with metamorphic transfer an impressive jet that ignores SR/PR. Also you have roper for strength damage (2d6 per attack, 6 touch attacks per round). This only costs 7 pp and one of your feat daily uses (roper doesn't even use the feat). Energy Conversion: Manifest it split for 15 pp and go stand in a fire. Now you can blast 6*ML damage for free as long as it lasts. What crippling powers are these that you're thinking of? I'm looking at the list and not seeing the incredible, unless by crippling you mean ability damage. Core Crippling Powers of Choice by Level 1: Disable (affects 4HD cone, save or cover/run away) 2: Ego Whip or Energy Stun 3: Ectoplasmic Coccoon (best save or die in core) or Time Hop (like maze, but temporal rather than spatial) 4: Dominate (converting enemies to allies is more efficient than killing) 5: Ectoplasmic Shambler (weak effect, but no save or pr) 6: Disintegrate and Crystallize 7: Mass Ecto Cocoon and Decerebrate 8: Recall Death (will save is nice, but augmenting dominate is usually better) 9: Assimilate (think of it as a more serious Death Knell) and Microcosm
pud 05-24-07, 02:30 PM	Can both Energy Missile and Crystal shard be deflected back at you?
Rageheart 05-24-07, 02:40 PM	Ectoplasmic Cocoon, for instance, is an example of these. Check it out and you'll see why -- ... The biggest line is that the creature cannot be harmed or interacted with unless the cocoon is destroyed, which in turn lets you use it defensively as well as offensively (not always the best option, but an option nevertheless). A very good option indeed, if you also have the Burrowing Power Feat.
Psikerlord 05-24-07, 05:02 PM	I have energy missile (feat for telepath), energy ray and crystal shard all on my list. The ranged touch attack energy ray is great for most things, except SR creatures, when crystal shard comes in. Otherwise energy missile is a great 2-3 foe power, which allows you to avoid targeting friends, unlike fireball or lightning bolt. As pointed out in earlier posts, all of these powers are very pp intensive... so save them for the big fights. Minor globe is a headache (although not a problem vs most "fighter" types), you might try dispel psionics... or just send your party fighter in!
InkBlot 05-24-07, 05:15 PM	Can both Energy Missile and Crystal shard be deflected back at you? Only Energy Missile can be reflected back at it's manifester. Spell Turning and ReddoPsi, the only reflecting effects in the game, only reflect spells and powers which have a target. Crystal Shard does not have a target. Energy Missile does.
hovnarr 05-24-07, 05:51 PM	A very good option indeed, if you also have the Burrowing Power Feat. Whoa, that's extremely cool, hadn't thought about that. First I thought you should use touchsight to see outside, but you could just use powers that don't require targeting such as burrowing out a few astral constructs. While in your hardness 8, 20 hp shell. Btw, what happens if you suffer lots of AoE damage, let's say 40 points? Do the first 28 points destroy the cocoon, leaving 12 to damage you, or is your "unaffected" status maintained throughout the spell's damage dealing?
Kiklio 05-24-07, 06:26 PM	That depends, hovnarr. Look at Fireball: If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does. The Spread text nor the Line of Effect text mention damaging interposing barriers. However, it's very reasonable to assume that damaging spreads (like Fireball) deal their full damage to targets beyond a barrier that breaks AND/OR has a 1 ft. hole punched in it.
pud 05-24-07, 08:16 PM	Only Energy Missile can be reflected back at it's manifester. Spell Turning and ReddoPsi, the only reflecting effects in the game, only reflect spells and powers which have a target. Crystal Shard does not have a target. Energy Missile does. That's interesting. Perhaps that makes Crystal Shard better overall. There's nothing worse than getting punked out by your own manifestation turned against you. I'd rather open a combat with an attack power I knew couldn't be used against me. Crystal Shard also gives you the opportunity to score a critical hit, which Energy Missile does not. I'm trying to figure out which attack is best to specialize in, using Metapower and Empower Power to pump out the most massive and consistant damage.
crizhII 05-24-07, 08:18 PM	Btw, what happens if you suffer lots of AoE damage, let's say 40 points? Do the first 28 points destroy the cocoon, leaving 12 to damage you, or is your "unaffected" status maintained throughout the spell's damage dealing? An AoE would generally have to do 56hp damage to breach the coccoon. Only Acid and Sonic require less than that but they only have to do 20.
Tempest Stormwind 05-24-07, 08:27 PM	An AoE would generally have to do 56hp damage to breach the coccoon. Only Acid and Sonic require less than that but they only have to do 20.Just so people know where this came from:Energy Attacks Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. EDIT: I forgot that the FAQ clears up that hardness always applies unless it says otherwise. So, to breach the Hardness 8, 20 HP cocoon, you'd need: Acid: 28 Cold: 112 Fire: 56 Electricity: 56 Sonic: 28 (or 20 if the attack says it bypasses hardness*) For the record, I was talking about breaching it from inside earlier. My DM has a tendency for cocoons to be breached by whoever's inside firing off Sonic Energy Pushes. *Not all sonic damage effects ignore hardness. Shout, for instance, deals sonic damage but doesn't bypass hardness. Most sonic damage in actual gameplay, though, is likely from psionic energy powers, which *do* bypass hardness (but deal -1 damage per die).
Fafnir 05-25-07, 06:04 AM	Acid: 20 Cold: 112 Fire: 56 Electricity: 56 Sonic: 20 Shouldn't that be Acid: 28?
crizhII 05-25-07, 06:42 AM	Shouldn't that be Acid: 28? "as they do to creatures." i.e. you just take the rolled damage straight off the objects hit point total. You would check to see if the object has applicable Energy Resistance, just as you would with a creature, but that's all. I suspect there is no correlation between an objects rating on Moh's scale and it's resistance to being consumed by acid.... If you could be bothered I suppose it would be more accurate for different materials to react differently to damage from different energy types but that's a lot of hassle. Glass for example should be immune to acid, locks filled with icewater should take full damage from cold, etc...
munin 05-25-07, 08:40 AM	Actually, the Main 3.5 FAQ says that hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks (pages 68 and 91 of the current one, and an aside on 92), making the energy attacks rules just poor wording. They explicitly mention that the rules are "...sometimes misinterpreted to suggest that hardness doesn't apply to acid and sonic damage..." (page 91). Psionic sonic powers are an exception to this rule because they explicitly state otherwise in their descriptions (which the FAQ allows for).
Fafnir 05-25-07, 10:55 AM	Actually, the Main 3.5 FAQ says that hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks (pages 68 and 91 of the current one, and an aside on 92), making the energy attacks rules just poor wording. They explicitly mention that the rules are "...sometimes misinterpreted to suggest that hardness doesn't apply to acid and sonic damage..." (page 91). Psionic sonic powers are an exception to this rule because they explicitly state otherwise in their descriptions (which the FAQ allows for). Exactly what I meant.
munin 05-25-07, 11:22 AM	Sorry. I forgot to add "Thus, Fafnir is completely correct." : )
Tempest Stormwind 05-25-07, 11:29 AM	Fixed; I forgot about the FAQ earlier.
crizhII 05-25-07, 11:48 AM	Actually, the Main 3.5 FAQ says that hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks (pages 68 and 91 of the current one, and an aside on 92), making the energy attacks rules just poor wording. They explicitly mention that the rules are "...sometimes misinterpreted to suggest that hardness doesn't apply to acid and sonic damage..." (page 91). Psionic sonic powers are an exception to this rule because they explicitly state otherwise in their descriptions (which the FAQ allows for). Arghhh, I hate that, stuff like that ought to be in the errata, not the FAQ. We just found the FAQ alterations to tower shields half way through a combat with a dozen guy's with tower shields. Nightmare. If it changes the rules it belongs in the errata. To add insult to injury there is a new FAQ that's only 2 days old with 20 pages of new material. I'll have to digest all of that by Sunday and I'm working non-stop between now and then. Knickers.
Tempest Stormwind 05-25-07, 11:55 AM	To add insult to injury there is a new FAQ that's only 2 days old with 20 pages of new material. I'll have to digest all of that by Sunday and I'm working non-stop between now and then.It's just quotes from Ask Wizards, and 90% of it is based off of the Tome of Battle, and is stuff you could have figured out by reading the rules. Just skim for red text; I read it all in ten minutes.
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 03:20 PM	(though the former is considered unsporting by Wizards; the idea of shapechanging still holds this point, however). Care to elaborate tempest?
Tempest Stormwind 05-25-07, 03:36 PM	Care to elaborate tempest? WotC errata removed all references to Polymorph and Metamorphosis except the powers themselves, along with a few others (Alter Self and Shapechange, I believe),meaning you can ban the problematic spells without dramatically impacting the remainder of the rules (which no longer reference them). This also altered Wild Shape, Alternate Form, and Change Shape to use different mechanics. Polymorph and related effects are banned in RPGA events, and books from the PHB2 onward include polymorph subschool effects to replace the spell with something more reasonable (unless you're a sorcerer). They didn't flat-out remove those spells -- you can still use them just as you always would -- but it's clear that they no longer consider them "sportsmanlike". In fact, the announcement of this flat-out admitted, and I quote, that "it's too darn good" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a).
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 06:11 PM	WotC errata removed all references to Polymorph and Metamorphosis except the powers themselves, along with a few others (Alter Self and Shapechange, I believe),meaning you can ban the problematic spells without dramatically impacting the remainder of the rules (which no longer reference them). This also altered Wild Shape, Alternate Form, and Change Shape to use different mechanics. Polymorph and related effects are banned in RPGA events, and books from the PHB2 onward include polymorph subschool effects to replace the spell with something more reasonable (unless you're a sorcerer). They didn't flat-out remove those spells -- you can still use them just as you always would -- but it's clear that they no longer consider them "sportsmanlike". In fact, the announcement of this flat-out admitted, and I quote, that "it's too darn good" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a). For some reason i thought you Meant Wotc considers summonings(specifically astral construct) unsportsmanlike. Hehe i was mistaken. Whats ever reasonable for a sorcerer?
pud 05-25-07, 06:12 PM	Do you have an opinion of the best damage power to specialize in?
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 06:31 PM	Do you have an opinion of the best damage power to specialize in? Don't touch damage with a 10ft. pole. Thats my opinion.
Fafnir 05-25-07, 07:42 PM	Do you have an opinion of the best damage power to specialize in? Disintegrate. :D Or, between the two you mentioned, I'd say Crystal Shard. A Kineticist will have access to much better blasts at higher levels, and any other Psion would have to burn a feat for EM. On the other hand, PR: No is invaluable.
pud 05-25-07, 08:03 PM	You prefer Disintigrate. May I ask why? It seems subpar as anything but a utility power. I realize it gets around Globe of Invulnerability. Also, what Kineticist powers do you consider superior to Energy Missile. Nothing I can see does what it does as well.
Sleepwalker13666 05-25-07, 08:12 PM	Despite the fact that it's an all or nothing power, mind thrust is one of my favorite powers. In a game I'm currently playing in I'm an 6th lv elan wilder that killed a 5th level barabian in one round with that power.
pud 05-25-07, 08:16 PM	mind thrust is one of my favorite powers. Ewwwww! :yuck:
Tempest Stormwind 05-25-07, 08:19 PM	You prefer Disintigrate. May I ask why? It seems subpar as anything but a utility power. I realize it gets around Globe of Invulnerability. Also, what Kineticist powers do you consider superior to Energy Missile. Nothing I can see does what it does as well. 1) Direct damage is a subpar strategy except between levels 5 and 9 or so. Sometimes 5 and 7 if your wizard knows what he's doing. Energy Missile is just very good at what it does, but the fact that Disintegrate scales as +2d6/+1pp puts it ahead of Energy Missile. 2) Disintegrate isn't energy damage. Energy damage is easily resisted and even easier to manipulate or become immune to. 3) Energy Missile says it multitargets, but it's no better than Magic Missile in how big an area it can effect. If your foes are that bunched together, other spells can tear them up even more. Realistically, Energy Missile is nearly as single-target as Disintegrate. 4) Disintegrate serves an out-of-combat use. Energy Missile doesn't (any more than any energy power does, which is its sonic bypass-hardness effect). That said, I'd avoid damage altogether, as I said earlier in the thread.
Sleepwalker13666 05-25-07, 08:42 PM	Ewwwww! :yuck: :allalone:
pud 05-25-07, 09:54 PM	LOL! My bad, Sleepwalker. Rock on with that Mind Thrust, brother! Tempest, thanks for a great response. 1) Direct damage is a subpar strategy except between levels 5 and 9 or so. Sometimes 5 and 7 if your wizard knows what he's doing. Energy Missile is just very good at what it does, but the fact that Disintegrate scales as +2d6/+1pp puts it ahead of Energy Missile.Yes, that is true and very enticing. You must account for two things however. First, if the target makes it's save the effect is minimal. This alone is not enough to keep Disintigrate off of the top spot. Second, while both powers permit a save and PR, Disintegrate requires a successful ranged touch attack where Energy Missile does not. Depending on your estimation of how likely that attack is to be successful, it will influence the average damage output of Disintegrate. In my estimation, the combination of both negatives associated with Disintegrate keep its average damage output below that of Energy Missile. 2) Disintegrate isn't energy damage. Energy damage is easily resisted and even easier to manipulate or become immune to. True. I weigh this in the advantage to Disintegrate. That advantage is minimized by Knowledge checks for creatures you come up against to select the optimal energy type. Don't forget some critters take double damage from certain energies. 3) Energy Missile says it multitargets, but it's no better than Magic Missile in how big an area it can effect. If your foes are that bunched together, other spells can tear them up even more. Realistically, Energy Missile is nearly as single-target as Disintegrate. True again. If you're speaking of situational uses, however, Energy Missile stands out because of its ability to snipe opponents in combat without risk to comrades. Very useful. 4) Disintegrate serves an out-of-combat use. Energy Missile doesn't (any more than any energy power does, which is its sonic bypass-hardness effect).A very nice out-of-combat use, I agree. That said, I'd avoid damage altogether, as I said earlier in the thread.I know, I know. But a blaster is fun times! A lot also hinges on how metapsionics merges with Chaotic Surge. I'd like to break the damage threshhold by combining their effects. If you would, please take a moment to help me on another thread, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=853035
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 10:20 PM	I know, I know. But a blaster is fun times! Oh how i know this. But fun times are not had when your focused on damage and the party barbarian beats you 5 ways til sunday there. Hey tempest, have the rules gurus ever discussed how strong nukes need to be viable? I'm making the obvious assumption of a need to get bigger dice with higher level slots, but how would that progression need to go?
kab 05-26-07, 12:48 AM	Both are completely nullified by a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. ;) interpreting the rules, crystal shard would be unaffected by a {lesser} globe of invulnerability. The power is part of the (creation) subdiscipline, and it has an instantaneous duration. As per the SRD: If the power has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through psionics. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on psionics for its existence. so while you cannot manifest a crystal shard within a Null Psionics Field (or similar effect), you certainly can manifest it outside, while directing it towards a target within
Tempest Stormwind 05-26-07, 02:42 AM	interpreting the rules, crystal shard would be unaffected by a {lesser} globe of invulnerability. The power is part of the (creation) subdiscipline, and it has an instantaneous duration. As per the SRD: so while you cannot manifest a crystal shard within a Null Psionics Field (or similar effect), you certainly can manifest it outside, while directing it towards a target within Reread the globe. It makes no such stipulation. Essentially, even though the shard's an instantaneous creation effect, the ray effect would be blocked by the globe.
Lycanthromancer 05-26-07, 01:04 PM	Actually, I have to say that if you take some care, disintegrate can be better than energy missile. Why? The Split Psionic Ray feat, and critical hits.
pud 05-26-07, 02:31 PM	Actually, I have to say that if you take some care, disintegrate can be better than energy missile. Why? The Split Psionic Ray feat, and critical hits.You are making the assumption that Split Psionic Ray can target a single creature twice. If that is true, then Split Psionic Ray is indeed uber-efficient. You are also comparing power+feat with unmodified power. If you put Split Psionic Ray onto Crystal Shard, you would likely deal more damage than a Split Disintegrate due to no save and no PR. Well, I guess it would depend on DR.
Sleepwalker13666 05-26-07, 05:31 PM	LOL! My bad, Sleepwalker. Rock on with that Mind Thrust, brother! http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=853035 Don't worry I know mind thrust isn't the greatest power, but my character is low level, and I've had great luck with it. I havn't been able to play a high level psion yet.