Best discipline to get alone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best discipline to get alone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sckazinski
05-24-07, 12:58 PM Ok, guys! I have a doubt... I will play my first psion. My DM let me use it, but he won't let me pick Expanded Knowledge to take powers from other disciplines, saying that he's afraid of the power of the class. I said OK to that.

Trouble is... the only discipline powers I will get are from my primary discipline!

So, the question is...
What is the best/more useful/more powerful discipline in this case?
Vharuck
05-24-07, 01:01 PM Your best option is to not play a psion. That's like telling a wizard he can only cast spells from a single school.

You'll be gimped, often worthless dealing with problems, and I doubt you'll have much fun.
InkBlot
05-24-07, 01:22 PM Don't listen to Vharuck. You're not gimped.

Which discipline is the best for you depends on who else is in your party, what you see your psions role in the party being, and what kind of campaign you're in. However, I reccomend Shaper, Seer, or Nomad.

Basicaly, I'm thinking about what you should play so as to not scare your DM away from psionics forever. A telepath would charm or dominate everything in sight, which would probably anger the DM. A kineticist could nova for damage or just do slightly more than what your DM would expect a wizard to do, which could put him off. An egoist has metamorphosis, which is just as broken as polymorph.

I'm also thinking about who has the most best powers. Astral Construct is extremely useful and versitile, so you might want to go Shaper just for that (and for the utility powers, if you want to play a utility psion). Nomad gets all sorts of movement, teleportation, and plane hopping powers earlier than any other psion, which is just very very cool (and indispensible in a campaign big on plane-hopping or travel in general). All the good clairsentience powers are on the Seer list, so if you want to be a psychic detective or an all-knowing-all-seeing guy then you'll have to take Seer.

Remember the Golden Rules of psionics!
* You can't spend more powerpoints than your manifester level.
* You can only expend psionic focus for one feat/ability at a time.
* Make sure your DM reads the book.
kyeudo
05-24-07, 01:37 PM I second the Shaper. However, if you take Astral Construct, stat them out ahead of time so that you can use them quickly and not slow down play.
AntiDjinn
05-24-07, 01:47 PM Please clarify: By "single discipline" do you mean discipline (shaper, telepath, seer,...) or discipline (metacreativitiy, telepathy, clairsentience,...)?

There is a difference. If he is still allowing all powers off the general list regardless of discipline but limiting you to a single discipline (class)-specific list (basically, simply not allowing Expanded Knowledge to be used as written) then it is possible to build a perfectly viable character. People build psions all the time without taking Expanded Knowledge.

If, on the other hand, he is saying all powers must be of a given discipline (as in your seer can only know clairsentient powers and can't even learn Dispel Psionics, Crystal Shard, or other powers off the general psion/wilder list) then get a smarter DM. And by all means direct him to this board so he can attempt to defend this absurd idea.
Zylo_Drizzt
05-24-07, 03:20 PM eurudite.
Lycanthromancer
05-24-07, 03:23 PM That only works if it's a high psionics game. Otherwise, he's not going to get even a quarter of the powers he'll likely need.
Vharuck
05-24-07, 03:40 PM Please clarify: By "single discipline" do you mean discipline (shaper, telepath, seer,...) or discipline (metacreativitiy, telepathy, clairsentience,...)?

There is a difference. If he is still allowing all powers off the general list regardless of discipline but limiting you to a single discipline (class)-specific list (basically, simply not allowing Expanded Knowledge to be used as written) then it is possible to build a perfectly viable character. People build psions all the time without taking Expanded Knowledge.

If, on the other hand, he is saying all powers must be of a given discipline (as in your seer can only know clairsentient powers and can't even learn Dispel Psionics, Crystal Shard, or other powers off the general psion/wilder list) then get a smarter DM. And by all means direct him to this board so he can attempt to defend this absurd idea.

From what I read, I think that if he chooses to play a Telepath, he can't even choose crystal shard.
TikiMan
05-24-07, 04:12 PM Shaper, hands down. Entangling Ectoplasm, Crystal Shard, Astral Construct, Ectoplasmic Caccoon, Fabricate, etc. are all powers known not only for being good in their own right, but also good no matter what the situation is. It's sort of like the opposite of Telepath, which wtfpwns in humanoid-centric games, but is all but pointless in undead heavy games.

And yeah, when you say 'discipline' do you mean one of the six types of powers (metacreativity, psychoportation, etc.) or do you mean one of the six power lists (shaper, nomad, etc.)? If it's just the special power lists you're denied from accessing then it won't matter, though I still suggest shaper due to personal bias.:D
Sckazinski
05-24-07, 06:21 PM Ops! Looks like I was misinterpreted...

I still will have access to all the general powers, but I can't take expanded knowledge to take powers from other EXCLUSIVE discipline powers...

I will have access to expanded knowledge, but only to general powers and powers from my basic discipline exclusive powers.
AntiDjinn
05-24-07, 06:27 PM Then you can build a perfectly viable character, not every psion takes Expanded Knowledge, and those who don't survive just fine.

Contrary to popular belief, there are no absolute "must-have" powers for all psions. Some are required for certain builds or character concepts, but none are essential to the survival of all psions. For every power you can name as indispensable you can find a build out there that doesn't have it.

Sure, some powers are so useful that you won't want to play without them; Time Hop is so good I will include it in any build. You can do without Dispel Psionics, but then you won't even be able to dispel the effects of your own powers if they are not dismissible (such a character could exist, but it would make little sense).

None of the discipline-specific powers fall into this boat; a kineticist might want Schism, but he can function just fine without it.
Varl
05-24-07, 06:45 PM General powers? I thought all psionic powers were grouped under their respective discipline? Could someone point me in the direction of these general powers please?
Jaid
05-24-07, 07:53 PM General powers? I thought all psionic powers were grouped under their respective discipline? Could someone point me in the direction of these general powers please?

there are powers on discipline lists (ie shaper-only powers, telepath-only powers, etc) and there are general powers (which are still part of a discipline, but which are not part of a discipline-only list).
AntiDjinn
05-24-07, 10:01 PM General powers? I thought all psionic powers were grouped under their respective discipline? Could someone point me in the direction of these general powers please?

See pages 70 -72 (ending with Timeless Body, just above the bold underlined Psion Discipline Powers) of the XPH for a list of psion/wilder powers that any psion or wilder may take. These are not restricted to practitioners of a particular discipline although each is classified by discipline.
TrinityPower
05-24-07, 10:42 PM From what I read, I think that if he chooses to play a Telepath, he can't even choose crystal shard.

Methinks you misunderstand how disciplines work a tad. Each discipline has a subset of powers they can choose, that are unique to that discipline. BUT there is also a general list of powers all psions can choose from. The discipline lists that are for each subtype of psion (Shaper, Egoist, etc) each consists of roughly 10ish powers. Even still, if one takes the feat, "Expanded Knowledge" they may add a normally restricted power, ie: A Shaper can give himself Metamorphasis for example.
AntiDjinn
05-24-07, 11:13 PM The misunderstanding was over discipline (psion occupation type) vs. discipline (power classification). If someone says "of a single discipline" you always have to ask which definition of the word he is talking about. This problem is inherent in the XPH and will hopefully be addressed in future editions (like they could have fixed in Comp Psi using the space currently used for everything "stygian." Everyone rally for "Devotion" as the classification of psion sub-type in psi 4.0.
InkBlot
05-25-07, 02:15 AM I agree that the dual-use of the word "discipline" has to stop, but I can't stand using the word "devotion" with psionics. "Devotion" has too much of a religious meaning. It's a synonym for faith. Clerics and ardents gain their power through devotion to a God or ideal, not psions.

Instead I propose that everyone should rally for "art" as the classification of psion sub-type in psi 4.0.

Yes, I know "devotion" was a term used in earlier editions. That's no reason to keep it around. Many things were dropped from earlier edition psionics.
AntiDjinn
05-25-07, 03:27 AM Devotion = passion, dedication, zeal. It means being committed to something above all else. It doesn't mean religion any more than referring to your dog as being a devoted companion means it lights incense and prays to you. No form of ritualism is required for devotion, it is purely a state of mind.
cymbolik
05-25-07, 06:58 AM Mantra.
Insight.
Inspiration.

Back to topic, however, AntiDjinn is correct. I'm playing a Seer and I refuse to take Expanded Knowledge, since I think it's a waste of a feat when I can just as easily use independant research to potentially gain an otherwise restricted power.
I have at least one seer discipline specific power of every level, and the rest are filled with generic powers from the standard list.
Judicious use of powers like clairvaoyant sense has saved our party a lot of trouble on numerous occassions, and it's relatively cheap.
For offensive power recall agony is great as a seer power, and the precognition set of powers are fair buffers, if not fantastic.

If your objective is to not terrify your DM then I'd say go with the Seer or Nomad subclass since they're both very subtle, nuanced classes, with the ability to either forsee trouble or run away from it very effectively.
AntiDjinn
05-25-07, 01:04 PM I think independent research is better used to make new powers than to port existing ones. This is the method by which mages get spells with their names on them. While powers never bear the name of their originator (probably because no one cares to use them, no manifester has to be taught by another) it is reasonable to assume that there are psions who have researched original powers.

So if you are a nomad and want Redopsi via independent research, why not instead create a new power (Nomad 6) that delivers Redopsi's result but does so by warping space so that the line of effect of in incomming spell or power bends back to its origin? It should have enough differences to be distinct (maybe it only reflects powers that generate an effect such as a ray) and unique.

Independent research is also your best way to introduce powers you see on the boards or in 3rd party supplements if the DM has not decided to use them in the campaign as a whole.
Vharuck
05-25-07, 01:07 PM Methinks you misunderstand how disciplines work a tad. Each discipline has a subset of powers they can choose, that are unique to that discipline. BUT there is also a general list of powers all psions can choose from. The discipline lists that are for each subtype of psion (Shaper, Egoist, etc) each consists of roughly 10ish powers. Even still, if one takes the feat, "Expanded Knowledge" they may add a normally restricted power, ie: A Shaper can give himself Metamorphasis for example.

No, I misunderstood what he was explaining his DM's houserules were. I know basic XPH well enough, it's when people start messing with it because it's "broken" that gets me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sckazinski 05-24-07, 12:58 PM	Ok, guys! I have a doubt... I will play my first psion. My DM let me use it, but he won't let me pick Expanded Knowledge to take powers from other disciplines, saying that he's afraid of the power of the class. I said OK to that. Trouble is... the only discipline powers I will get are from my primary discipline! So, the question is... What is the best/more useful/more powerful discipline in this case?
Vharuck 05-24-07, 01:01 PM	Your best option is to not play a psion. That's like telling a wizard he can only cast spells from a single school. You'll be gimped, often worthless dealing with problems, and I doubt you'll have much fun.
InkBlot 05-24-07, 01:22 PM	Don't listen to Vharuck. You're not gimped. Which discipline is the best for you depends on who else is in your party, what you see your psions role in the party being, and what kind of campaign you're in. However, I reccomend Shaper, Seer, or Nomad. Basicaly, I'm thinking about what you should play so as to not scare your DM away from psionics forever. A telepath would charm or dominate everything in sight, which would probably anger the DM. A kineticist could nova for damage or just do slightly more than what your DM would expect a wizard to do, which could put him off. An egoist has metamorphosis, which is just as broken as polymorph. I'm also thinking about who has the most best powers. Astral Construct is extremely useful and versitile, so you might want to go Shaper just for that (and for the utility powers, if you want to play a utility psion). Nomad gets all sorts of movement, teleportation, and plane hopping powers earlier than any other psion, which is just very very cool (and indispensible in a campaign big on plane-hopping or travel in general). All the good clairsentience powers are on the Seer list, so if you want to be a psychic detective or an all-knowing-all-seeing guy then you'll have to take Seer. Remember the Golden Rules of psionics! * You can't spend more powerpoints than your manifester level. * You can only expend psionic focus for one feat/ability at a time. * Make sure your DM reads the book.
kyeudo 05-24-07, 01:37 PM	I second the Shaper. However, if you take Astral Construct, stat them out ahead of time so that you can use them quickly and not slow down play.
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 01:47 PM	Please clarify: By "single discipline" do you mean discipline (shaper, telepath, seer,...) or discipline (metacreativitiy, telepathy, clairsentience,...)? There is a difference. If he is still allowing all powers off the general list regardless of discipline but limiting you to a single discipline (class)-specific list (basically, simply not allowing Expanded Knowledge to be used as written) then it is possible to build a perfectly viable character. People build psions all the time without taking Expanded Knowledge. If, on the other hand, he is saying all powers must be of a given discipline (as in your seer can only know clairsentient powers and can't even learn Dispel Psionics, Crystal Shard, or other powers off the general psion/wilder list) then get a smarter DM. And by all means direct him to this board so he can attempt to defend this absurd idea.
Zylo_Drizzt 05-24-07, 03:20 PM	eurudite.
Lycanthromancer 05-24-07, 03:23 PM	That only works if it's a high psionics game. Otherwise, he's not going to get even a quarter of the powers he'll likely need.
Vharuck 05-24-07, 03:40 PM	Please clarify: By "single discipline" do you mean discipline (shaper, telepath, seer,...) or discipline (metacreativitiy, telepathy, clairsentience,...)? There is a difference. If he is still allowing all powers off the general list regardless of discipline but limiting you to a single discipline (class)-specific list (basically, simply not allowing Expanded Knowledge to be used as written) then it is possible to build a perfectly viable character. People build psions all the time without taking Expanded Knowledge. If, on the other hand, he is saying all powers must be of a given discipline (as in your seer can only know clairsentient powers and can't even learn Dispel Psionics, Crystal Shard, or other powers off the general psion/wilder list) then get a smarter DM. And by all means direct him to this board so he can attempt to defend this absurd idea. From what I read, I think that if he chooses to play a Telepath, he can't even choose crystal shard.
TikiMan 05-24-07, 04:12 PM	Shaper, hands down. Entangling Ectoplasm, Crystal Shard, Astral Construct, Ectoplasmic Caccoon, Fabricate, etc. are all powers known not only for being good in their own right, but also good no matter what the situation is. It's sort of like the opposite of Telepath, which wtfpwns in humanoid-centric games, but is all but pointless in undead heavy games. And yeah, when you say 'discipline' do you mean one of the six types of powers (metacreativity, psychoportation, etc.) or do you mean one of the six power lists (shaper, nomad, etc.)? If it's just the special power lists you're denied from accessing then it won't matter, though I still suggest shaper due to personal bias.:D
Sckazinski 05-24-07, 06:21 PM	Ops! Looks like I was misinterpreted... I still will have access to all the general powers, but I can't take expanded knowledge to take powers from other EXCLUSIVE discipline powers... I will have access to expanded knowledge, but only to general powers and powers from my basic discipline exclusive powers.
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 06:27 PM	Then you can build a perfectly viable character, not every psion takes Expanded Knowledge, and those who don't survive just fine. Contrary to popular belief, there are no absolute "must-have" powers for all psions. Some are required for certain builds or character concepts, but none are essential to the survival of all psions. For every power you can name as indispensable you can find a build out there that doesn't have it. Sure, some powers are so useful that you won't want to play without them; Time Hop is so good I will include it in any build. You can do without Dispel Psionics, but then you won't even be able to dispel the effects of your own powers if they are not dismissible (such a character could exist, but it would make little sense). None of the discipline-specific powers fall into this boat; a kineticist might want Schism, but he can function just fine without it.
Varl 05-24-07, 06:45 PM	General powers? I thought all psionic powers were grouped under their respective discipline? Could someone point me in the direction of these general powers please?
Jaid 05-24-07, 07:53 PM	General powers? I thought all psionic powers were grouped under their respective discipline? Could someone point me in the direction of these general powers please? there are powers on discipline lists (ie shaper-only powers, telepath-only powers, etc) and there are general powers (which are still part of a discipline, but which are not part of a discipline-only list).
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 10:01 PM	General powers? I thought all psionic powers were grouped under their respective discipline? Could someone point me in the direction of these general powers please? See pages 70 -72 (ending with Timeless Body, just above the bold underlined Psion Discipline Powers) of the XPH for a list of psion/wilder powers that any psion or wilder may take. These are not restricted to practitioners of a particular discipline although each is classified by discipline.
TrinityPower 05-24-07, 10:42 PM	From what I read, I think that if he chooses to play a Telepath, he can't even choose crystal shard. Methinks you misunderstand how disciplines work a tad. Each discipline has a subset of powers they can choose, that are unique to that discipline. BUT there is also a general list of powers all psions can choose from. The discipline lists that are for each subtype of psion (Shaper, Egoist, etc) each consists of roughly 10ish powers. Even still, if one takes the feat, "Expanded Knowledge" they may add a normally restricted power, ie: A Shaper can give himself Metamorphasis for example.
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 11:13 PM	The misunderstanding was over discipline (psion occupation type) vs. discipline (power classification). If someone says "of a single discipline" you always have to ask which definition of the word he is talking about. This problem is inherent in the XPH and will hopefully be addressed in future editions (like they could have fixed in Comp Psi using the space currently used for everything "stygian." Everyone rally for "Devotion" as the classification of psion sub-type in psi 4.0.
InkBlot 05-25-07, 02:15 AM	I agree that the dual-use of the word "discipline" has to stop, but I can't stand using the word "devotion" with psionics. "Devotion" has too much of a religious meaning. It's a synonym for faith. Clerics and ardents gain their power through devotion to a God or ideal, not psions. Instead I propose that everyone should rally for "art" as the classification of psion sub-type in psi 4.0. Yes, I know "devotion" was a term used in earlier editions. That's no reason to keep it around. Many things were dropped from earlier edition psionics.
AntiDjinn 05-25-07, 03:27 AM	Devotion = passion, dedication, zeal. It means being committed to something above all else. It doesn't mean religion any more than referring to your dog as being a devoted companion means it lights incense and prays to you. No form of ritualism is required for devotion, it is purely a state of mind.
cymbolik 05-25-07, 06:58 AM	Mantra. Insight. Inspiration. Back to topic, however, AntiDjinn is correct. I'm playing a Seer and I refuse to take Expanded Knowledge, since I think it's a waste of a feat when I can just as easily use independant research to potentially gain an otherwise restricted power. I have at least one seer discipline specific power of every level, and the rest are filled with generic powers from the standard list. Judicious use of powers like clairvaoyant sense has saved our party a lot of trouble on numerous occassions, and it's relatively cheap. For offensive power recall agony is great as a seer power, and the precognition set of powers are fair buffers, if not fantastic. If your objective is to not terrify your DM then I'd say go with the Seer or Nomad subclass since they're both very subtle, nuanced classes, with the ability to either forsee trouble or run away from it very effectively.
AntiDjinn 05-25-07, 01:04 PM	I think independent research is better used to make new powers than to port existing ones. This is the method by which mages get spells with their names on them. While powers never bear the name of their originator (probably because no one cares to use them, no manifester has to be taught by another) it is reasonable to assume that there are psions who have researched original powers. So if you are a nomad and want Redopsi via independent research, why not instead create a new power (Nomad 6) that delivers Redopsi's result but does so by warping space so that the line of effect of in incomming spell or power bends back to its origin? It should have enough differences to be distinct (maybe it only reflects powers that generate an effect such as a ray) and unique. Independent research is also your best way to introduce powers you see on the boards or in 3rd party supplements if the DM has not decided to use them in the campaign as a whole.
Vharuck 05-25-07, 01:07 PM	Methinks you misunderstand how disciplines work a tad. Each discipline has a subset of powers they can choose, that are unique to that discipline. BUT there is also a general list of powers all psions can choose from. The discipline lists that are for each subtype of psion (Shaper, Egoist, etc) each consists of roughly 10ish powers. Even still, if one takes the feat, "Expanded Knowledge" they may add a normally restricted power, ie: A Shaper can give himself Metamorphasis for example. No, I misunderstood what he was explaining his DM's houserules were. I know basic XPH well enough, it's when people start messing with it because it's "broken" that gets me.