Best Fort save-or-die? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Fort save-or-die? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hovnarr
06-18-07, 10:03 AM Psions have many, many save-or-dies to choose from. I've always thought that the best Will and Ref save-or-dies were pretty easy picks: Psionic Dominate and Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon. But what about Fort save-or-dies?

I think Disintegrate and Assimilate should get special mention - not because they are the best, but because they have other uses that you don't want to be without. Disintegrate is a specifically referenced effect in many spells and a means to overcome them (Wall of Force, TK Sphere etc.), plus its use for destroying matter cannot be overlooked. Assimilate is useful for the +4 unnamed bonus to all attributes - use it on lesser minions before the big fight.

But for actual offensive Fort save-or-dies, I think the three most interesting are:
*Crystallize: Only fails to affect constructs or undead, and the effect is reversable which is both good and bad. Only readily available to Shapers. Doesn't augment.
*Decerebrate: Affects everything that has a brain stem, which pretty much only excludes undead, constructs and plants. A 7 level power that doesn't augment means it will only be useful for a small part of your career.
*Fuse Flesh: Incorporeal, gaseous and other non-fleshy creatures and shapechangers are immune. Only lasts 1/round per level, but may incapacite the target even further robbing it of all mental actions. A 6 level power that augments, but it's touch range.

I'm thinking Fuse Flesh is the way to go here, if you put it into perspective. When would you use a fort save power? Typically, to kill or incapacitate a target with a low Fort save, such as a caster type. Then the touch range is not a problem, and the possibility to also disable counter measures is golden. If you need to keep a distance, it probably means the target is a melee combat type and has a high Fort save anyway, so you're better of using a Will or Ref effect and those have range too. You could also fall back on Disintegrate if you need Fort save-or-die with range. Any other opinions or power suggestions?
Tyroki
06-18-07, 10:11 AM Eww... Thrallherd + Assimilate = ...

Crystallize sounds fun in honesty ^^ They fail, boom, they're stuck in crystal. Great way to take a hostage while in the midst of battle, no? Rip everything else apart.

Can you partially decrystallize said critter? You know, say, give it back the use of its head so it can talk =3
Slagger the Chuul
06-18-07, 12:26 PM If you're going for all-round best, it's hard to top psionic disintegrate. While it's not a true save-or-die, the damage is pretty good, and creatures with poor Fort saves (your favoured targets) often lack huge reserves of HP. When you add the utility of its other applications, you can't really go wrong with it.

One noteworthy power from Complete Psionic is eyes of the basilisk, which combined the utility of multiple uses with an extremely broad selection of targets (if they can see you they don't even need to be alive).

Other than that, it's largely a flavour choice. For telepaths in particular, it's hard to go past the pure fun of cranial deluge.
RadicalTaoist
06-18-07, 12:50 PM Dream Travel. You send them to a location that is neither a physical place nor a different plane (unless you're in Eberron, but then there are nasty consequences to leaving someone in Dal Quor). I don't know if even Wish and Miracle can bring someone left in the region of dreams back.

EDIT: WOOPS, *Fort* save or dies, my bad.
Lycanthromancer
06-18-07, 01:06 PM Psionic disintegrate doesn't have a scaling DC, which makes it inferior as a save or die, I'm afraid. It's really useful when metapsionic'd, however, and is good for utility purposes.
AntiDjinn
06-18-07, 01:40 PM Disintegrate is great for removing objects from the battlefield permanently (this of it as Permanent Time Hop) and nerfs certain key spells (such as Forcecage). As an attack it does good damage, although the 4th level spell Ray Deflection can cause it to automatically miss (any ray regardless of level is deflected harmlessly away, the text of the power even mentions it working against any ranged touch attack).

Fuse Flesh is excellent (but for its range) because it gives you so many options: A helpless target is dead or captured at your whim. It is inferior to Corporeal Instability, a spell that renders a target helpless with a touch attack, and also inflicts 1 point of Wis damage every round (SC is full of gems like that).

Cranial Deluge does high damage and has an augmentable DC, though it is all or none (like a big brother to Mind Thrust). It is not mind-affecting (targets the physical brain, not the mind) though there is considerable overlap in immune targets. You won't be able to kill a fire elemental by forcing its brain to produce excess cerebrospinal fluid. You can't target creatures with Int 2 or less even if they have brains. When it works it is spectacular and you get that Scanners special effect. If I were to redesign this power to fit the scanners motif better, I would reduce the damage but make it Fortitude, Half. I would also make it last 1 round/2 levels if you concentrate: The scanner's head detonation trick took some time (several rounds of screen time) but it appeared if a scanner concentrated long enough he could eventually kill anyone.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-20-07, 09:26 PM Assimilate isn't a particularly good save or die. It's an awesome concept, but it's just not that good.
Tyroki
06-20-07, 10:04 PM Assimilate isn't a particularly good save or die. It's an awesome concept, but it's just not that good.

What if you were a thrallherd? Thats alot of believers you can assimilate... Per day >.>
hovnarr
06-21-07, 04:18 AM Assimilate isn't a particularly good save or die. It's an awesome concept, but it's just not that good.

It's not so much that it's not a good save-or-die - it's that it's not primarily a save-or-die. Assimilate is actually a buff spell, disguised as a save-or-die. The offensive use of it is pathetic. Getting a +4 unnamed bonus to all attributes is not however. Carry a few bunnies in your pack and assimilate one before you go into the demiliches lair. I see the target more as a material component, rather than an actual threat. Tyroki's idea with believers is pretty nice too. What more could a believer want than to become one with its master?
Tyroki
06-21-07, 08:21 AM Mix levels of Telepath, Body Leech, and Thrallherd enough so you can at least get Assimilate (I came up with the levels needed a while ago but can't quite remember now)... I think that would make one of the most insane and annoying BBEG's O.o

Use most your level 1 followers as batteries from a distance, while your higher level ones are with you as well as your thralls. Assimilate with the lowest level minion followers that are with you. Use the highest level followers as your front line, with the Thralls as 'generals' so to speak. And, from afar, bring the thunder with your now insanely high DC's due to assimilated INT O.o

But wait! Theres more!

If the main party kills you, you just regenerate back with one of your low level batteries, somewhere in the far distance from the final battleground. =3

Wait 24 hours, and viola. New believers to do it all over again with. That would be a right wanker to beat, no?
hovnarr
06-21-07, 08:42 AM Man, that is so cool. I'm definetely gonna do a BBEG like that. Two infact. I'll try out an ECL 15 variant first (he was gonna be psionic anyway, and having to fight his minions is just extra awesome sauce). Then if I like it (probably will), he'll be just the epic recurring BBEG that I'm looking for my campaign. Thanks for the idea Tyroki!
Tyroki
06-21-07, 08:53 AM No problem ^^ I was looking around through the psionic forums and I saw bits here and there so I thought "Screw it, what happens if all of this is actually as ONE?" XD

I thought about it, and it really annoyed the dude I told it to. We were having a hypothetical discussion, and I laughed when the only way he could think of to win was using Wish and to wish that all of the cocoons were gone. I laughed even harder when I said "But your character doesn't know the cocoons exist =3"

I, personally, think the idea is brilliant. You know what? Screw it. I'm gonna crunch the levels again ^^ I have nothing else to do.
Fafnir
06-21-07, 09:06 AM Mix levels of Telepath, Body Leech, and Thrallherd enough so you can at least get Assimilate (I came up with the levels needed a while ago but can't quite remember now)... I think that would make one of the most insane and annoying BBEG's O.o

That's only slightly less scary than a Cleric with Greater Consumptive Field.

:tantrum: Brrr... scary...

Oh, wait!
Psychic Teurge. Time to make a new BBEG for my group.:evillaugh
Tyroki
06-21-07, 09:07 AM Viola: Telepath 6/ Thrallherd 9/Body Leech 5

While losing the second Thrall is a bit of a stab, as the DM you still have ALOT of believers to mess with, and a damn annoying boss. The -3 manifester levels does hurt a little, but you have assimilate, and, the Body Leeches cheat death ability, plus the free Greater Stasis power. I think thats worth the losses. The best part is, the skills needed are gained via Telepath anyway. Theres alot of synergy in there >.> Then, just get Practised Manifester if you want those extra manifester levels (Though the hit to PP and powers known hurts, if you build it right, it shouldn't matter anyway ^_-)

Now =3 Couple all of this with some of the strange and unusual stuff psions usually get their hands on, then bring in some feats, and make the believers and thrall as you see fit.

For added bonus, make the thrall another Thrallherd. That would then make your battery supply even worse, PLUS you no longer have the hit to your thralls. =3

Hmm... So... Tempted... to actually build one o.o; We need a thread for this!
hovnarr
06-21-07, 09:19 AM Hmm... So... Tempted... to actually build one o.o; We need a thread for this!

You can use this one to stat it up, I don't mind. I'll give a 15th level build a go personally. Then we can post the finished builds in the stickied BBEG/NPC database at the What's a DM to do? forum.

More later, gonna go do some SRD crunching.
Tyroki
06-21-07, 09:20 AM You can use this one to stat it up, I don't mind. I'll give a 15th level build a go personally. Then we can post the finished builds in the stickied BBEG/NPC database at the What's a DM to do? forum.

More later, gonna go do some SRD crunching.

I made a thread for it so we don't lose its place. I don't want to take over your thread.
Genetic
06-21-07, 09:26 AM The only problem with this assimilate concept is that un-named bonuses from the same source (i.e. your assimilate power) do not stack...
Tyroki
06-21-07, 09:32 AM The only problem with this assimilate concept is that un-named bonuses from the same source (i.e. your assimilate power) do not stack...

Are you sure about that? Could you show us some proof on that?

And even if it can't, it's still a really cool BBEG concept =D I mean, it allows for a reoccuring badguy that can seemingly be 'killed' as early as him being level 13.

Anyways. Moving the BBEG stuff to the other thread I made specially for it.
hovnarr
06-21-07, 09:39 AM OK, see my post there. And you're right about the non-stacking, but +4 free bee is still great, plus you get lots of juicy power points too.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-21-07, 12:48 PM It's not so much that it's not a good save-or-die - it's that it's not primarily a save-or-die. Assimilate is actually a buff spell, disguised as a save-or-die. The offensive use of it is pathetic. Getting a +4 unnamed bonus to all attributes is not however. Carry a few bunnies in your pack and assimilate one before you go into the demiliches lair. I see the target more as a material component, rather than an actual threat. Tyroki's idea with believers is pretty nice too. What more could a believer want than to become one with its master?

Holy hell, it's unnamed? Could've sworn it was enhancement.

Edit: Ah, doesn't matter. Doesn't stack.
hovnarr
06-21-07, 12:57 PM Edit: Ah, doesn't matter. Doesn't stack.

'course it matters. It just doesn't stack with itself. You'll get a +4 bonus to all attributes all right, you just won't get a +4 bonus for every 17 pp you spend - which would be completely broken, so that's good. +4 to all attributes basically translates to a +2 bonus to anything you do - it's nothing to sneer at.
Sphyre
06-21-07, 01:59 PM *Decerebrate: Affects everything that has a brain stem, which pretty much only excludes undead, constructs and plants. A 7 level power that doesn't augment means it will only be useful for a small part of your career.

Oozes with brains! Wow, that'd be a pretty freaky sight.
Slagger the Chuul
06-21-07, 10:54 PM Oozes with brains! Wow, that'd be a pretty freaky sight.

This is psionics. Every weird monster and its dog has a visible brain.
Sphyre
06-22-07, 01:04 AM lol.

Psionics. You're not psionic unless your brain is showing.
CrimsonDeath
06-22-07, 12:56 PM Hmm... Where does Decerebrate send the brain stem, I wonder?...
Fafnir
06-22-07, 01:31 PM Hmm... Where does Decerebrate send the brain stem, I wonder?...

It becomes a vestige. :P
CrimsonDeath
06-23-07, 12:19 AM Hmm... What level Vestige do you think Medulla would be?
Genetic
06-23-07, 08:09 PM Are you sure about that? Could you show us some proof on that?

And even if it can't, it's still a really cool BBEG concept =D I mean, it allows for a reoccuring badguy that can seemingly be 'killed' as early as him being level 13.

Anyways. Moving the BBEG stuff to the other thread I made specially for it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking
Red Dragon
06-23-07, 08:26 PM Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, including themselves, unless the description specifies otherwise, which is why they're so rare.
Fafnir
06-24-07, 08:32 AM Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, including themselves, unless the description specifies otherwise, which is why they're so rare.

Bonuses from the same effect never stack, even dodge or unnamed ones.
Red Dragon
06-24-07, 08:43 AM Really? Where does it say that? (Seriously, that surprises me. As far as I was aware, dodge and unnamed bonuses were unique that way, and that rare because of it)
Fafnir
06-24-07, 09:11 AM Really? Where does it say that? (Seriously, that surprises me. As far as I was aware, dodge and unnamed bonuses were unique that way, and that rare because of it)

In the link posted above by Genetic.

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

[...]

Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

[...]

Dodge Bonus
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.

Emphasis mine.
Red Dragon
06-24-07, 10:26 AM Unnamed bonuses are still conspicuously absent. ;) Not trying to be a troll or anything, just pointing that out.

Also note "Most cases". I specifically remember something around that section mentioning the unnamed bonuses stack with everything, quite likely including themselves.
Fafnir
06-24-07, 10:50 AM Unnamed bonuses are still conspicuously absent. ;) Not trying to be a troll or anything, just pointing that out.

Also note "Most cases". I specifically remember something around that section mentioning the unnamed bonuses stack with everything, quite likely including themselves.

It is possible, but I find it unlikely... One could just as easily state the opposite: since the SRD mentions only dodge and circumstance bonuses as exceptions, unnamed bonuses do not stack.

I searched any mention of it but I found none, thus I'm forced to conclude that even if they are exempt from the name-dependent stacking rules (because you know, they are unnamed), they are still bound to the source-dependent ones. Which means no stacking of Assimilate.
hovnarr
06-24-07, 03:26 PM That's precisely right - one unnamed bonus may stack with another one from another source (much like Dodge bonuses), but they won't stack if they're from the same source.
Red Dragon
06-25-07, 01:42 PM Huh. Didn't know that. Thanks.

On-topic, psionics has a lot of great save-or-dies, but I like Decerberate best. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 06-18-07, 10:03 AM	Psions have many, many save-or-dies to choose from. I've always thought that the best Will and Ref save-or-dies were pretty easy picks: Psionic Dominate and Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon. But what about Fort save-or-dies? I think Disintegrate and Assimilate should get special mention - not because they are the best, but because they have other uses that you don't want to be without. Disintegrate is a specifically referenced effect in many spells and a means to overcome them (Wall of Force, TK Sphere etc.), plus its use for destroying matter cannot be overlooked. Assimilate is useful for the +4 unnamed bonus to all attributes - use it on lesser minions before the big fight. But for actual offensive Fort save-or-dies, I think the three most interesting are: Crystallize: Only fails to affect constructs or undead, and the effect is reversable which is both good and bad. Only readily available to Shapers. Doesn't augment. Decerebrate: Affects everything that has a brain stem, which pretty much only excludes undead, constructs and plants. A 7 level power that doesn't augment means it will only be useful for a small part of your career. *Fuse Flesh: Incorporeal, gaseous and other non-fleshy creatures and shapechangers are immune. Only lasts 1/round per level, but may incapacite the target even further robbing it of all mental actions. A 6 level power that augments, but it's touch range. I'm thinking Fuse Flesh is the way to go here, if you put it into perspective. When would you use a fort save power? Typically, to kill or incapacitate a target with a low Fort save, such as a caster type. Then the touch range is not a problem, and the possibility to also disable counter measures is golden. If you need to keep a distance, it probably means the target is a melee combat type and has a high Fort save anyway, so you're better of using a Will or Ref effect and those have range too. You could also fall back on Disintegrate if you need Fort save-or-die with range. Any other opinions or power suggestions?
Tyroki 06-18-07, 10:11 AM	Eww... Thrallherd + Assimilate = ... Crystallize sounds fun in honesty ^^ They fail, boom, they're stuck in crystal. Great way to take a hostage while in the midst of battle, no? Rip everything else apart. Can you partially decrystallize said critter? You know, say, give it back the use of its head so it can talk =3
Slagger the Chuul 06-18-07, 12:26 PM	If you're going for all-round best, it's hard to top psionic disintegrate. While it's not a true save-or-die, the damage is pretty good, and creatures with poor Fort saves (your favoured targets) often lack huge reserves of HP. When you add the utility of its other applications, you can't really go wrong with it. One noteworthy power from Complete Psionic is eyes of the basilisk, which combined the utility of multiple uses with an extremely broad selection of targets (if they can see you they don't even need to be alive). Other than that, it's largely a flavour choice. For telepaths in particular, it's hard to go past the pure fun of cranial deluge.
RadicalTaoist 06-18-07, 12:50 PM	Dream Travel. You send them to a location that is neither a physical place nor a different plane (unless you're in Eberron, but then there are nasty consequences to leaving someone in Dal Quor). I don't know if even Wish and Miracle can bring someone left in the region of dreams back. EDIT: WOOPS, Fort save or dies, my bad.
Lycanthromancer 06-18-07, 01:06 PM	Psionic disintegrate doesn't have a scaling DC, which makes it inferior as a save or die, I'm afraid. It's really useful when metapsionic'd, however, and is good for utility purposes.
AntiDjinn 06-18-07, 01:40 PM	Disintegrate is great for removing objects from the battlefield permanently (this of it as Permanent Time Hop) and nerfs certain key spells (such as Forcecage). As an attack it does good damage, although the 4th level spell Ray Deflection can cause it to automatically miss (any ray regardless of level is deflected harmlessly away, the text of the power even mentions it working against any ranged touch attack). Fuse Flesh is excellent (but for its range) because it gives you so many options: A helpless target is dead or captured at your whim. It is inferior to Corporeal Instability, a spell that renders a target helpless with a touch attack, and also inflicts 1 point of Wis damage every round (SC is full of gems like that). Cranial Deluge does high damage and has an augmentable DC, though it is all or none (like a big brother to Mind Thrust). It is not mind-affecting (targets the physical brain, not the mind) though there is considerable overlap in immune targets. You won't be able to kill a fire elemental by forcing its brain to produce excess cerebrospinal fluid. You can't target creatures with Int 2 or less even if they have brains. When it works it is spectacular and you get that Scanners special effect. If I were to redesign this power to fit the scanners motif better, I would reduce the damage but make it Fortitude, Half. I would also make it last 1 round/2 levels if you concentrate: The scanner's head detonation trick took some time (several rounds of screen time) but it appeared if a scanner concentrated long enough he could eventually kill anyone.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-20-07, 09:26 PM	Assimilate isn't a particularly good save or die. It's an awesome concept, but it's just not that good.
Tyroki 06-20-07, 10:04 PM	Assimilate isn't a particularly good save or die. It's an awesome concept, but it's just not that good. What if you were a thrallherd? Thats alot of believers you can assimilate... Per day >.>
hovnarr 06-21-07, 04:18 AM	Assimilate isn't a particularly good save or die. It's an awesome concept, but it's just not that good. It's not so much that it's not a good save-or-die - it's that it's not primarily a save-or-die. Assimilate is actually a buff spell, disguised as a save-or-die. The offensive use of it is pathetic. Getting a +4 unnamed bonus to all attributes is not however. Carry a few bunnies in your pack and assimilate one before you go into the demiliches lair. I see the target more as a material component, rather than an actual threat. Tyroki's idea with believers is pretty nice too. What more could a believer want than to become one with its master?
Tyroki 06-21-07, 08:21 AM	Mix levels of Telepath, Body Leech, and Thrallherd enough so you can at least get Assimilate (I came up with the levels needed a while ago but can't quite remember now)... I think that would make one of the most insane and annoying BBEG's O.o Use most your level 1 followers as batteries from a distance, while your higher level ones are with you as well as your thralls. Assimilate with the lowest level minion followers that are with you. Use the highest level followers as your front line, with the Thralls as 'generals' so to speak. And, from afar, bring the thunder with your now insanely high DC's due to assimilated INT O.o But wait! Theres more! If the main party kills you, you just regenerate back with one of your low level batteries, somewhere in the far distance from the final battleground. =3 Wait 24 hours, and viola. New believers to do it all over again with. That would be a right wanker to beat, no?
hovnarr 06-21-07, 08:42 AM	Man, that is so cool. I'm definetely gonna do a BBEG like that. Two infact. I'll try out an ECL 15 variant first (he was gonna be psionic anyway, and having to fight his minions is just extra awesome sauce). Then if I like it (probably will), he'll be just the epic recurring BBEG that I'm looking for my campaign. Thanks for the idea Tyroki!
Tyroki 06-21-07, 08:53 AM	No problem ^^ I was looking around through the psionic forums and I saw bits here and there so I thought "Screw it, what happens if all of this is actually as ONE?" XD I thought about it, and it really annoyed the dude I told it to. We were having a hypothetical discussion, and I laughed when the only way he could think of to win was using Wish and to wish that all of the cocoons were gone. I laughed even harder when I said "But your character doesn't know the cocoons exist =3" I, personally, think the idea is brilliant. You know what? Screw it. I'm gonna crunch the levels again ^^ I have nothing else to do.
Fafnir 06-21-07, 09:06 AM	Mix levels of Telepath, Body Leech, and Thrallherd enough so you can at least get Assimilate (I came up with the levels needed a while ago but can't quite remember now)... I think that would make one of the most insane and annoying BBEG's O.o That's only slightly less scary than a Cleric with Greater Consumptive Field. :tantrum: Brrr... scary... Oh, wait! Psychic Teurge. Time to make a new BBEG for my group.:evillaugh
Tyroki 06-21-07, 09:07 AM	Viola: Telepath 6/ Thrallherd 9/Body Leech 5 While losing the second Thrall is a bit of a stab, as the DM you still have ALOT of believers to mess with, and a damn annoying boss. The -3 manifester levels does hurt a little, but you have assimilate, and, the Body Leeches cheat death ability, plus the free Greater Stasis power. I think thats worth the losses. The best part is, the skills needed are gained via Telepath anyway. Theres alot of synergy in there >.> Then, just get Practised Manifester if you want those extra manifester levels (Though the hit to PP and powers known hurts, if you build it right, it shouldn't matter anyway ^_-) Now =3 Couple all of this with some of the strange and unusual stuff psions usually get their hands on, then bring in some feats, and make the believers and thrall as you see fit. For added bonus, make the thrall another Thrallherd. That would then make your battery supply even worse, PLUS you no longer have the hit to your thralls. =3 Hmm... So... Tempted... to actually build one o.o; We need a thread for this!
hovnarr 06-21-07, 09:19 AM	Hmm... So... Tempted... to actually build one o.o; We need a thread for this! You can use this one to stat it up, I don't mind. I'll give a 15th level build a go personally. Then we can post the finished builds in the stickied BBEG/NPC database at the What's a DM to do? forum. More later, gonna go do some SRD crunching.
Tyroki 06-21-07, 09:20 AM	You can use this one to stat it up, I don't mind. I'll give a 15th level build a go personally. Then we can post the finished builds in the stickied BBEG/NPC database at the What's a DM to do? forum. More later, gonna go do some SRD crunching. I made a thread for it so we don't lose its place. I don't want to take over your thread.
Genetic 06-21-07, 09:26 AM	The only problem with this assimilate concept is that un-named bonuses from the same source (i.e. your assimilate power) do not stack...
Tyroki 06-21-07, 09:32 AM	The only problem with this assimilate concept is that un-named bonuses from the same source (i.e. your assimilate power) do not stack... Are you sure about that? Could you show us some proof on that? And even if it can't, it's still a really cool BBEG concept =D I mean, it allows for a reoccuring badguy that can seemingly be 'killed' as early as him being level 13. Anyways. Moving the BBEG stuff to the other thread I made specially for it.
hovnarr 06-21-07, 09:39 AM	OK, see my post there. And you're right about the non-stacking, but +4 free bee is still great, plus you get lots of juicy power points too.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-21-07, 12:48 PM	It's not so much that it's not a good save-or-die - it's that it's not primarily a save-or-die. Assimilate is actually a buff spell, disguised as a save-or-die. The offensive use of it is pathetic. Getting a +4 unnamed bonus to all attributes is not however. Carry a few bunnies in your pack and assimilate one before you go into the demiliches lair. I see the target more as a material component, rather than an actual threat. Tyroki's idea with believers is pretty nice too. What more could a believer want than to become one with its master? Holy hell, it's unnamed? Could've sworn it was enhancement. Edit: Ah, doesn't matter. Doesn't stack.
hovnarr 06-21-07, 12:57 PM	Edit: Ah, doesn't matter. Doesn't stack. 'course it matters. It just doesn't stack with itself. You'll get a +4 bonus to all attributes all right, you just won't get a +4 bonus for every 17 pp you spend - which would be completely broken, so that's good. +4 to all attributes basically translates to a +2 bonus to anything you do - it's nothing to sneer at.
Sphyre 06-21-07, 01:59 PM	*Decerebrate: Affects everything that has a brain stem, which pretty much only excludes undead, constructs and plants. A 7 level power that doesn't augment means it will only be useful for a small part of your career. Oozes with brains! Wow, that'd be a pretty freaky sight.
Slagger the Chuul 06-21-07, 10:54 PM	Oozes with brains! Wow, that'd be a pretty freaky sight. This is psionics. Every weird monster and its dog has a visible brain.
Sphyre 06-22-07, 01:04 AM	lol. Psionics. You're not psionic unless your brain is showing.
CrimsonDeath 06-22-07, 12:56 PM	Hmm... Where does Decerebrate send the brain stem, I wonder?...
Fafnir 06-22-07, 01:31 PM	Hmm... Where does Decerebrate send the brain stem, I wonder?... It becomes a vestige. :P
CrimsonDeath 06-23-07, 12:19 AM	Hmm... What level Vestige do you think Medulla would be?
Genetic 06-23-07, 08:09 PM	Are you sure about that? Could you show us some proof on that? And even if it can't, it's still a really cool BBEG concept =D I mean, it allows for a reoccuring badguy that can seemingly be 'killed' as early as him being level 13. Anyways. Moving the BBEG stuff to the other thread I made specially for it. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking
Red Dragon 06-23-07, 08:26 PM	Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, including themselves, unless the description specifies otherwise, which is why they're so rare.
Fafnir 06-24-07, 08:32 AM	Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, including themselves, unless the description specifies otherwise, which is why they're so rare. Bonuses from the same effect never stack, even dodge or unnamed ones.
Red Dragon 06-24-07, 08:43 AM	Really? Where does it say that? (Seriously, that surprises me. As far as I was aware, dodge and unnamed bonuses were unique that way, and that rare because of it)
Fafnir 06-24-07, 09:11 AM	Really? Where does it say that? (Seriously, that surprises me. As far as I was aware, dodge and unnamed bonuses were unique that way, and that rare because of it) In the link posted above by Genetic. In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. [...] Circumstance Modifier A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source. [...] Dodge Bonus A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks. Emphasis mine.
Red Dragon 06-24-07, 10:26 AM	Unnamed bonuses are still conspicuously absent. ;) Not trying to be a troll or anything, just pointing that out. Also note "Most cases". I specifically remember something around that section mentioning the unnamed bonuses stack with everything, quite likely including themselves.
Fafnir 06-24-07, 10:50 AM	Unnamed bonuses are still conspicuously absent. ;) Not trying to be a troll or anything, just pointing that out. Also note "Most cases". I specifically remember something around that section mentioning the unnamed bonuses stack with everything, quite likely including themselves. It is possible, but I find it unlikely... One could just as easily state the opposite: since the SRD mentions only dodge and circumstance bonuses as exceptions, unnamed bonuses do not stack. I searched any mention of it but I found none, thus I'm forced to conclude that even if they are exempt from the name-dependent stacking rules (because you know, they are unnamed), they are still bound to the source-dependent ones. Which means no stacking of Assimilate.
hovnarr 06-24-07, 03:26 PM	That's precisely right - one unnamed bonus may stack with another one from another source (much like Dodge bonuses), but they won't stack if they're from the same source.
Red Dragon 06-25-07, 01:42 PM	Huh. Didn't know that. Thanks. On-topic, psionics has a lot of great save-or-dies, but I like Decerberate best. :D