Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Friendlyfish 04-03-07, 01:54 PM	I've started playing a psion. I come from a wizard background, where the low levels are all about sleep, color spray, glitterdust and ghoul touch. What are the psion-equivalents that allow me to drop the opposition with a minimum of fuss and muss? Or, rather, I should say, it looks like there aren't any after a first reading. ;(
Lycanthromancer 04-03-07, 02:00 PM	Did you have a particular character concept in mind, or maybe a discipline you wanted to try? That can seriously skew the battlefield of character creation. As for my 2 cp, I'd say that Psionic Charm, Deja Vu and Time Hop are excellent save-or-suffers, though since most of the save-or's don't scale in psionics, you're going to have to be psychically reforming quite a bit. Also, check out Energy Push and Energy Stun. Those are quite nice, certainly. Oh, and then there's the seer's Fate Link. :eek:
carnivore 04-03-07, 02:11 PM	you are correct...there are no OVERPOWERED low level powers like the spells you mentioned....however...there are some useful low level powers that can be very strong: Grease......... very useful Battlefield Control Entangle....... also very useful :D
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-03-07, 02:23 PM	Sure. Mind thrust, the damage it deals makes it debilitating to anything with worse than d8 Hit Dice at your level, and against weaker creatures it can be a sure kill. Deja vu can be very debilitating if used in the right situations. Making an opponent charge off a cliff is a fun one. Dismiss ectoplasm can kill or banish someone using the ectoplasmic form power. Death urge is very fun in the right environment. On to discipline powers! Control body is very fun. Fate link can be good in the right situation. Ectoplasmic cocoon has both offensive and defensive uses, as it provides total cover and concealment. Psionic charm is a classic. Brain lock is a good way to take someone out of a fight, even if it requires concentration. Crisis of breath does some very fun things. Psionic dominate is also a classic. So yeah, that about covers it. Do note that psionics does not have common and powerful effects that later become useless, like sleep and all of the image spells.
InkBlot 04-03-07, 03:02 PM	These are my first-level favorites from the Psion/Wilder list. attraction, deja vu, disable, grease, telempathic projection Attraction - Make your enemy attracted to a rock. Throw the rock far away. Move on while he plays fetch. Disable - Not many creatures are willing to keep fighting when they know that the next attack will kill them. Combine with Intimidate for more fun. Telempathic Projection - It does more than just +4 to some skills. This is a "save or be my friend" just slightly less powerful than psionic charm.
SlanderPanic 04-03-07, 03:13 PM	Ego Whip is disgustingly-effective. Many, many characters use Charisma as a dump stat. Make them regret it. Even if they make the save, they still take half. Make an augmented dorje of ego whip to save your power points. Death Urge is a fun one. If you can't kill an enemy, make him kill himself! I know it's above the levels you specified, but decerebrate is my favorite psionic save-or-die. It's one to look forward to as you get up in levels. Psychic crush is delightfully mean. That's all just scratching the surface, really.
Ilikan Holyaxe 04-03-07, 05:34 PM	Ego whip is nasty, at level 10 I nuked an Elder Fire Elemental this way with the rest of my party acting as a meatshield. Time Hop is a good one, especially if you have a portable hole handy and empty. Psionic Dominate is a good one. Suggestion, a classic, I love creative uses of this one (remembers fondly the time he managed to get out of a dire situation by using this power to create an impromptu birthday party)
crizhII 04-03-07, 05:42 PM	I've just decided that I really like Larval Flayers. There's a huge number of things that have their INT limited to below 5, Animals are stuck with 1 or 2. Dire Bears and the like suddenly stop looking like such a threat.... And you can litter the battlefield with the evil little fiends unlike Astral Construct...
Psikerlord 04-03-07, 06:09 PM	I play a telepath, so I like to use Brain lock (with solicit psicrystal), telekinetic force (with solicit psicrystal, pick up foe and sail them away, also handy for picking up yourself as a slow fly), death urge, psychic crush (low will save foes only) and psychotic break - whole enemy party kills itself. Giddy up.
InkBlot 04-03-07, 06:14 PM	Psikerlord, telekinetic force cannot be used on creatures. The target of tk-force is "one object at a time."
SlanderPanic 04-03-07, 08:20 PM	Creatures wear armor and carry shields.
Psikerlord 04-03-07, 11:07 PM	Well I'll be.... I must confess, never noticed that telekinetic force was objects only - weird! - thanks InkBlot. I also agree with SlanderPanic though - just target your foe's armour or robes or whatever instead (or your own, if you want to fly).. provided the total weight of the combined armour and person is less than the cap provided in the power description, you should get a similar result. I guess your foe could try to unstrap his armour and drop to the ground... depending on who's waiting for him. Another kind of save or die power - not exactly - Energy Missile targeting foe's items with sonic - auto hit, bypasses hardness, causing at least half damage even on a successful save. Mundane weapons crumble against it once you reach mid level (even if they save). At higher level, magic weapons are also in trouble (even if they save). Kineticist only power though.
Kiklio 04-04-07, 12:03 AM	Attended objects (objects on a creature's person) cannot be affected by powers unless stated. Telekinetic thrust can affect attended objects with a Will save to negate. Energy missile cannot affect attended objects because it doesn't state it. The "objects" in the target line refers to unattended objects, like doors, chandeliers, floor tiles, windows, unattended casks of alchemist's fire, and rocks.
Friendlyfish 04-04-07, 04:40 AM	The replies are great so far. I think people misunderstood the question a bit though (my fault). I didn't mean power levels 1-5. I meant character levels 1-5; i.e. 1st and 2nd level powers. I did do a read-through of the XPH and CPsi. I just didn't see anything that could dethrone sleep and color spray as the kings of low-level offence. Disable looks to be a watered down version of sleep or color spray. Really watered down, although I'm sure it has its uses. Energy Stun, ego whip, etc. are good for locking down a foe, but they only hit one enemy (or a limited area, as Energy Stun). I'm not quite as sold on ego whip as the Messianic Psionic Power; at least, at the low levels, since it usually takes multiple rounds to reduce even a uncharismatic foe to CHA 0. Contrast that with id insinuation that can be augmented to hit more than one foe at higher levels, but requires concentration, as does brain lock. Even at level 5, when psionic blast becomes available, it only puts the foe out of commission for 1 round, whereas the equivalent wizard spell foe-whacker, stinking cloud, stops a gaggle from doing anything to you for 1d4+1 rounds. Is it just me, or does the low-level psion have a weaker sauce power-for-spell than the equivalent low-level wizard? I'm hoping somebody can show me that I'm wrong, here. (Psionics certainly don't seem at all overpowered.) I carry the "arcanist" slot in my gaming group; my job entails raining the suck down upon my enemies so that my friends with the sharp steel and the attack rolls can slide it into their limp frames without having to sweat or take damage. They're now expecting that level of effectiveness from my new telepath psion vs. my previous wizards.
crizhII 04-04-07, 07:27 AM	The replies are great so far. I think people misunderstood the question a bit though (my fault). I didn't mean power levels 1-5. I meant character levels 1-5; i.e. 1st and 2nd level powers. I did do a read-through of the XPH and CPsi. I just didn't see anything that could dethrone sleep and color spray as the kings of low-level offence. Disable looks to be a watered down version of sleep or color spray. Really watered down, although I'm sure it has its uses. Energy Stun, ego whip, etc. are good for locking down a foe, but they only hit one enemy (or a limited area, as Energy Stun). I'm not quite as sold on ego whip as the Messianic Psionic Power; at least, at the low levels, since it usually takes multiple rounds to reduce even a uncharismatic foe to CHA 0. Contrast that with id insinuation that can be augmented to hit more than one foe at higher levels, but requires concentration, as does brain lock. Even at level 5, when psionic blast becomes available, it only puts the foe out of commission for 1 round, whereas the equivalent wizard spell foe-whacker, stinking cloud, stops a gaggle from doing anything to you for 1d4+1 rounds. Is it just me, or does the low-level psion have a weaker sauce power-for-spell than the equivalent low-level wizard? I'm hoping somebody can show me that I'm wrong, here. (Psionics certainly don't seem at all overpowered.) I carry the "arcanist" slot in my gaming group; my job entails raining the suck down upon my enemies so that my friends with the sharp steel and the attack rolls can slide it into their limp frames without having to sweat or take damage. They're now expecting that level of effectiveness from my new telepath psion vs. my previous wizards. Like I said Larval Flayers is pretty good. Lots of Monsters have an absurdly low INT. Most have a CHA of at least 10, it's only really PC's that dump CHA, so Ego Whip isn't really that useful. Larval Flayers effectively does 1D3x4 INT damage that can be spread out over 2 or 3 creatures over 4 or 5 rounds. Most of those creatures won't be taking any further part in a combat during that time, they'll have far more important stuff to be worrying about. Kills animals and low INT magical beasts/aberations. Seriously limits any INT based caster if it doesn't kill him.
Psikerlord 04-04-07, 07:52 AM	I would have to agree with you Friendlyfish, there are no real "ta-da!" save or die spells at low level for a psion... In my view psions are best at direct damage and individual save or die powers like brain lock, death urge and psychic crush. For 1st and 2nd level powers, I'd go with disable and brain lock. there's not much else... and certainly nothing on the power scale of sleep or colour spray... :(
Psikerlord 04-04-07, 08:09 AM	Kiliko, out of curiousity, on what do you base your view that "Attended objects (objects on a creature's person) cannot be affected by powers unless stated". I couldn't see anything in PHB to this effect, nor in the "Reading Spell Descriptions (Part Five)" article. I could of course have missed it, my research took about 10 mins...
carnivore 04-04-07, 12:10 PM	as i said before...Yes you are correct ...Psionics Do Not have corresponding powers to Color Spray or Sleep in XPH or Complete Psi.....but for softening up opponents some of the powers already mentioned are quite effective....exa: Manifest Grease on a powerful enemies WEAPON...then on the ground under him...notice: A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin. thus the creature will have to make several saves to keep his weapon and to move...even if all are successsful he is limited to walking at 1/2 speed, and must continue to make saves each round he is affected some of the Telepathic Powers are also more effective and work great with Diplomacy....thus avoiding Combat all together...and you can even get Fanatical Followers, instead of just Helpful: "Fanatic= Will give life to serve you, Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon " :D
AntiDjinn 04-04-07, 12:23 PM	Inflict Pain is very effective at low levels (its effect really doesn't increase at higher levels). It is mind-affecting (like anyone has Mind Blank up at those levels and undead, constructs, oozes, etc. only make up a fraction of encounters). Inflicting a -4 penalty if the subject fails the Will save is nice when it happens, but the fact that it automatically inflicts a -2 penalty even if they make the save is the payoff. The penalty applies to attack rolls (so that fighter may have to refrain from power attacking you or may just put 2 fewer points into damage), ability checks, and skill checks (as in Concentration checks). A telepath wants to use this power round 1 of combat. Not a save or die but the penalty is significant at lower levels and the lesser penalty is reliable. Brain Lock is also solid, if your telepath is supporting other party members. It is not a good choice for solo players because you partially neutralize yourself to neutralize another. Once you get a Lock on an opponent, someone else can move in and dispatch him. They don't get any advantage to hit, but the fact that the subject can not attack means they can advance into his threatened area without fear of attack. He also can't escape. Ego Whip, as noted above, an awesome power. Just make sure you have reliable support. Ego whipping a fighter doesn't even hinder him until you actually zero his Cha, so you must have some means (like competent teammates) to keep him in range but out of your face as you flay his ego over several rounds. Feat Leech. Often overlooked and generally of no value in a world where psionic feats are not very common. The fact that it simultaneously deprives your target of feats and grants them to you makes the power a buff/debuff. That the power also catalogs your target's psionic feats is a bonus. If you reach out and take Psionic Meditation and Psicrystal Affinity then you remove a lot of options from your target. If the target has Expanded Knowledge, the figure he used it to gain a power that is important enough to be worth the feat, so always take that one if you find it. If the target has Practiced Manifester, it is a no-brainer that you want to carve up to 4 manifester levels off of him. Can it kill? Rarely, but if you grab Psionic Body the loss of hit points may put the target below zero if it already has lots of damage (hit points granted by Psionic Body are not treated as temporary).
Korvara_Verndari 04-04-07, 12:36 PM	As far as power is concerned the Wizard's spells are more powerful then a Psion's powers. The tradeoff is that the Psion can do more then the Wizard can. Best guess without book present: i.e. at lvl 5 a wizard can cast 4 - 1st lvl, 3 - 2nd lvl, and 1 - 3rd lvl spell per day while the Psion has 5 - 1lvl, 4 - 2nd lvl, and 2 - 3rd lvl powers. The wizard can cast 7 spells per day, the Psion can manifest any of the 11 powers known with his base power point pool and any bonus points from high Int. The other thing is that while burning hands is a fire only spell (unless you take energy substitution) all psion energy powers can have the energy type chosen each time the power is manifested (i.e. fire one round, cold the second, electricity the third) giving even more flexability to the Psion. So while the Psion can't hit as hard as a wizard with any one single power, he can last longer and be more useful in the long run. Kor PS: all stats are pulled from memory and might not be total accurate. Please check nearest source book for actual stats. Thanks
SlanderPanic 04-04-07, 12:48 PM	A psion isn't a wizard. He can fulfill a similar role in a party, but a psion is really at his best when he can do his own unique thing and leave the wizarding to the wizard. So maybe he doesn't have sleep. He's got psionic daze and it's a hell of a lot more versatile than its arcane counterpart.
Kiklio 04-04-07, 02:59 PM	Kiliko, out of curiousity, on what do you base your view that "Attended objects (objects on a creature's person) cannot be affected by powers unless stated". I couldn't see anything in PHB to this effect, nor in the "Reading Spell Descriptions (Part Five)" article. I could of course have missed it, my research took about 10 mins... The basis for this comes from a close reading of the Magic/Psionics Overviews. You have to then compare some facts spelled out in Spell Descriptions. The following quote comes from the Saving Throw section of the Magic Overview. (object) The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level. You may be thinking, "Shouldn't the Target section define if a spell can target objects or not?" This question is key to understanding the distinction. Target: Up to five creatures or objects; no two targets can be more than 15 ft. apart. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 3 Energy Missile specifies that it can affect objects, but offers no object saving throw. Attended objects receive saving throws. It can then be concluded that Energy Missile can affect objects, but not attended objects. Target: One object at a time Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes (object) Power Points: 5 Telekinetic Force specifies it targets objects and gives them a saving throw. That means it explicitly can affect attended objects. The distinction is very easy to overlook. It is an implied ruling (as far as I can find) but internally consistent. The guideline is that if it offers an object saving throw, it can affect attended objects, If it doesn't, it cannot, barring a natural 1 on a creature's saving throw.
Psikerlord 04-04-07, 05:03 PM	Thanks for your explanation Kiklio, I think we shall have to agree to disagree on that one. I have noticed a few people have raised Ego Whip as a nice attacking power - but don't you have to get your target's charisma down to zero with a single manifestation? You can't stack additional manifestations on top of each other can you? Similar to multiple rays of enfeeblement: the effects/durations overlap, they don't accumulate.
InkBlot 04-04-07, 05:06 PM	Ray Of Enfeeblement applies a penalty to strength. Penalties from the same source don't stack. Ego Whip deals actual damage. Damage always stacks, even damage from the same source.
Ilikan Holyaxe 04-04-07, 07:06 PM	I dunno about Ego Whip not being so powerful, I just took down an Elder Fire Elemental in two manifestations of it. It is in fact very brutal because save does half damage, not "negates", so the only way to avoid getting dealt Cha damage is to have one of them fancy "immune to mind affecting" stickers on your forehead. And yes, it is damage, so it stacks. Otherwise, you would need to kill every creature in one hit with a sword, as a sword deals damage.
Friendlyfish 04-04-07, 07:34 PM	I'd like to note that psions are more than fine, in my opinion, at character levels 6-7+. That's when really good save or dies come online, and psionic blast starts working for multiple rounds, making it a brutal area attack. And, of course, for myself, a telepath going for 9 levels of thrallherd, psionic dominate is going to serve the dual purposes of taking enemies from play and swelling my herd of meatshields/slaves. So, for tactics, I've synthesized the following from some further reading and advice from this thread: lvl 1-2: Mind thrust will kill a lot of foes outright here; not so many good area-affect save or dies, but disable will fit in a pinch, acting in a cone. Psionic charm may once in awhile end encounters, if enemy rolls are particularly bad due to the -5 modifier. lvl 3-6: Energy stun will kill outright, or stun, most foes in this range, and provides a small modicum of area-effect. Also, ego whip or larval flayers against enemies with low CHA or INT, respectively. Id insinuation for economy save or die. Note I dismiss the level 3 selection at levels 5 and 6; psionic blast is worthwhile, but comes into its own at 7+. Time hop is very useful situationally. Past 7, psionic blast will see more use, as will death urge, mixed in with previous tactics. Past 10, we start to see more and more use of psionic dominate, until it eventually becomes the power of choice for mind-affecteds. At least for me! Thanks for your help.
AntiDjinn 04-04-07, 08:42 PM	Psionic Blast is useful for a limited range of character levels. The fact that it Stuns is its best feature; it gives you a non-lethal option. Sometimes capturing is much more useful than killing. If you do want to kill then just hack away while they are stunned. Also, unlike most other area effects, if you happen to catch a friendly in your blast they aren't really harmed, just out of the action for a while. Just remember not to kill your stunned buddies when you are dispatching foes in the area. The power's limits are: mind-affecting (not a big deal, not things that are mindless can 't be stunned anyway) and the DC can not be augmented. So reform the power away when it stops paying off. Fate Link can be fun to use. For a combo, start combat by linking two opponents then have the party blaster fireball them both. Each takes his own damage plus the damage taken by the other guy, effectively doubling the damage output of the spell (for those two targets) and that is just on the first round under this power. If you manage to kill one of the targets then the potential for negative levels exists. If you are ever hit with this power then it means massive amounts of damage or some other synergistic effect is coming. Getting out from under it is your priority. Time Hop works well for this; hop yourself or the other guy since Fate Link specifies two targets. If your targets have poor Will saves then doing chain links is fairly simple. Even if one target has a good will save you can often still get the power working. This power can also lend itself to bag of rodents broken tricks so some DM attention is warranted. Crisis of Breath looks like a save or die, but it is really a save or consequences. The chances of it killing are low and the decision to risk death is up to the victim (unless you use another effect to take this choice away). Don't think of it as Death Spell Light, think of it as Dire Slow because its main effect is to limit how many actions the subject can accomplish in a round. Its DC can be augmented as can its targeting options.
Psikerlord 04-04-07, 10:25 PM	Thanks for the comments re: Ego Whip and stacking charisma damage, I now understand why it is so good! :)