Bloodline levels + Gestalt manifester [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodline levels + Gestalt manifester [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Travis_UI
03-20-07, 06:09 PM So I posted something akin to this over on the UA board, but this is the only board I regularly visit so I thought I'd see if it elicits any opinions here as well. At least here I have an idea as to whose judgment to trust:D

We're playing a gestalt game (obviously). As I understand it, in a gestalt build identical class features don't stack if they appear on both sides of the build in a level. However, in the description for bloodline "levels" UA explicitly states that such levels entail no HD, no increase in saves or BAB, and no class features. It does provide that bloodline levels are to be counted when calculating anything that takes into account character or class level such as save DCs based on a class level or, in my case, manifester levels for the purpose of max pp expenditure or bonus pp.

My question is this: Since an increase in manifester level granted by a standard manifesting class is in fact a class feature, and since bloodline levels entail no class features at all (so there can't be identical features on both sides of the build), in a gestalt build with a manifester level on one side and a bloodline level on the other would the character benefit from an increase in manifester level of one or two?

My reading of the RAW doesn't seem to rule it out, but it could probably go either way, just interested in other opinions.
Travis_UI
03-23-07, 11:13 AM Getting less love for this here than on the UA board, where it received very little. At any rate, I'll try to make this more explicit to see if it makes more sense...

Assume the following build:

kineticist 1 // half-elf paragon 1
kineticist 1 / human paragon 1 // half-elf paragon 2
kineticist 1 / human paragon 2 // half-elf paragon 2 / bloodline 1

Now, at third level would this character have third level kineticist powers (noting the additional manifester level with the second levels of both HE and human paragon with transparency) with an effective manifester level of four (from the bloodline level which is calculated to determine manifester level but which does not grant class features, so that none can overlap), or third level kineticist powers with a manifester level of three?

Note: Even if you consider paragon classes to be prestige classes the rule barring two PrCs at the same level in this game have been selectively waived.
CowMasterTrojan
03-23-07, 11:15 PM The exact quote for my (and everyone elses) reference
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or in base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determing maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodlines never result in xp penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the characters bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DC's for characters with special abilities whose DC's are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though- only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

Now what your saying is that it doesnt specifically say it adds to manifester level. So you're asking would that stack or overlap with a normal manifesters level in a gestalt build? Indeed that is a really tough call. Clearly it is designed to not hurt spellcasters so that they might actually take bloodlines, but I don't think it was designed to push CL or ML above the normal maximum. Of course the obvious counter-point to that is Gestalt and bloodlines are in the same book. So they must have worded it that way for a reason. I dunno really, what does everyone else think?
Travis_UI
03-24-07, 12:22 AM It's not merely that it doesn't add manifester levels, it's that bloodlines specifically entail no class features at all. There are class features that entail increased caster/manifester levels as a class featurewhich would not necessarily stack the way that I'm talking about in a gestalt build, but in this case there are no class features competing at all. Hence the question...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Travis_UI 03-20-07, 06:09 PM	So I posted something akin to this over on the UA board, but this is the only board I regularly visit so I thought I'd see if it elicits any opinions here as well. At least here I have an idea as to whose judgment to trust:D We're playing a gestalt game (obviously). As I understand it, in a gestalt build identical class features don't stack if they appear on both sides of the build in a level. However, in the description for bloodline "levels" UA explicitly states that such levels entail no HD, no increase in saves or BAB, and no class features. It does provide that bloodline levels are to be counted when calculating anything that takes into account character or class level such as save DCs based on a class level or, in my case, manifester levels for the purpose of max pp expenditure or bonus pp. My question is this: Since an increase in manifester level granted by a standard manifesting class is in fact a class feature, and since bloodline levels entail no class features at all (so there can't be identical features on both sides of the build), in a gestalt build with a manifester level on one side and a bloodline level on the other would the character benefit from an increase in manifester level of one or two? My reading of the RAW doesn't seem to rule it out, but it could probably go either way, just interested in other opinions.
Travis_UI 03-23-07, 11:13 AM	Getting less love for this here than on the UA board, where it received very little. At any rate, I'll try to make this more explicit to see if it makes more sense... Assume the following build: kineticist 1 // half-elf paragon 1 kineticist 1 / human paragon 1 // half-elf paragon 2 kineticist 1 / human paragon 2 // half-elf paragon 2 / bloodline 1 Now, at third level would this character have third level kineticist powers (noting the additional manifester level with the second levels of both HE and human paragon with transparency) with an effective manifester level of four (from the bloodline level which is calculated to determine manifester level but which does not grant class features, so that none can overlap), or third level kineticist powers with a manifester level of three? Note: Even if you consider paragon classes to be prestige classes the rule barring two PrCs at the same level in this game have been selectively waived.
CowMasterTrojan 03-23-07, 11:15 PM	The exact quote for my (and everyone elses) reference A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or in base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determing maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodlines never result in xp penalties for multiclass characters. Include the characters bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DC's for characters with special abilities whose DC's are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though- only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. Now what your saying is that it doesnt specifically say it adds to manifester level. So you're asking would that stack or overlap with a normal manifesters level in a gestalt build? Indeed that is a really tough call. Clearly it is designed to not hurt spellcasters so that they might actually take bloodlines, but I don't think it was designed to push CL or ML above the normal maximum. Of course the obvious counter-point to that is Gestalt and bloodlines are in the same book. So they must have worded it that way for a reason. I dunno really, what does everyone else think?
Travis_UI 03-24-07, 12:22 AM	It's not merely that it doesn't add manifester levels, it's that bloodlines specifically entail no class features at all. There are class features that entail increased caster/manifester levels as a class featurewhich would not necessarily stack the way that I'm talking about in a gestalt build, but in this case there are no class features competing at all. Hence the question...