Brainstorming: Ideas for a full-BAB psychic class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Brainstorming: Ideas for a full-BAB psychic class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mercurius
05-14-07, 10:56 AM Hello, all.

I've been considering the idea of a full-BAB psionic class for a while now. Nothing like the psychic warrior getting a boost or anything like that, and I've already adopted the marksman from Untapped Potential for my campaign, but I like equilibrium, and looking at the available classes out there, there are two full-BAB classes for divine and arcane casters (ranger & paladin, duskblade & hexblade), and I want there to be two for the psionic side as well.

My basic idea at the moment is to take the concept of the Mindspy from Complete Warrior and transform it into a full core class built around psionics. I'm thinking of modeling its abilities not on PP and powers known, but something closer to the warlock and psi-like abilities, instead. This class is a warrior who uses his intuition and inherent psionic power to read the minds of his enemies and make himself that much deadlier.

So, general brainstorming at this point:

1: He needs to have Read Thoughts as an ability, possibly as early as first level.

2: He gains bonuses when fighting an opponent who he is currently reading the thoughts of, both to AC and attacks

3: possibly give the class something mechanically similar to a barbarian's rage... x/day, or maybe by expending psionic focus, he gains a bonus to attack, damage, and AC against one opponent while he focuses on their thoughts and reacts accordingly. This has the benefit of not relying on enemies to fail Will saves, and possibly could be offset by suffering penalties against other opponents (not entirely unlike some ToB stances)

4: Sense Motive, Bluff, etc, should probably be on his skill list... maybe even a 4 skill point class

5: Not sure if Wisdom or Charisma should be his DC stat, though. I'm thinking Wisdom for reading (sense motive is tied to it and all), but there's a fair amount of wisdom running around in Psionics already, and, like I've said, I like a bit of equilibrium...

6: If we go the invocation-esque route, a quick perusal of the XPH for powers that fit the flavor I'm thinking (mostly mind-reading/control, a bit of precognition... vaguely Jedi, though that's not the impetus) leads me to the following tentative list:
first level: Call to Mind, Conceal Thoughts, Daze, Psionic, Demoralize, Distract, Empathy, Empty Mind, Precognition (Defensive & Offensive), Offensive Prescience, Telempathic Projection, Mind Link, Precognition

second level: Cloud Mind, Detect Hostile Intent, Id Insinuation, Inflict Pain, Mental Disruption, Share Pain, Thought Shield, Read Thoughts, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Object Reading

third level: Danger Sense, Mental Barrier, Mind Trap, Psionic Blast, Forced Share Pain, Touchsight, Ubiquitous Vision, Crisis of Breath, Hostile Empathic Transfer, False Sensory Input

fourth level: Aura Sight, Correspond, Detect Remote Viewing, Empathic Feedback, Intellect Fortress, Mindwipe, Psionic Modify Memory, Remote Viewing, Control Body

fifth level: Catapsi, Leech Field, Power Resistance, Psychic Crush, Shatter Mind Blank, Tower of Iron Will, Psionic True Seeing, Mind Probe, Second Chance

sixth level: Aura Alteration, Mass Cloud Mind, Co-Opt Concentration, Remote View Trap, Suspend Life, Mind Switch, Greater Precognition

Seventh level: Evade Burst, Insanity, Personal Mind Blank, Psionic Moment of Prescience, Crisis of Life, Fate of One, Reddopsi

eighth level: Psionic Mind Blank, Recall Death, True Metabolism, Hypercognition

ninth level: Affinity Field, Apopsi, Microcosm, True Mind Switch, Metafaculty

7: A higher level, multiple opponent mind reading ability would probably be a good thing, much like the mindspy class feature.

8: If we require the Read Thoughts ability to be active to gain bonuses, we'd need to give the class some way of concentrating while attacking, which means something like the Mindspy's combat telepathy ability. This is one reason I like the more barbarian-rage style class feature option instead...

9: Probably give the class a good Will save and Fort Save, or maybe take a page from the scout and swashbuckler and give it one good save and one save boosting class feature... If so, which to favor, and which to go with the class feature? a good Will save and the Scout's Battle Fortitude ability would be kinda nice - the bonus to Fort saves and Initiative would jive well with the somewhat precognitive ideas of the class, and it's an established ability with established progression.

10: possibly follow the Bardic Music model of keying the mind reading boost to Sense Motive, giving bigger benefits with higher ranks in the skill...

-------

That's the general framework of my concept at the moment. Any ideas, feedback, criticism, etc from the psionics community would be great. I'm really loving psionics, but I haven't gotten as into it as some of the people on these boards, and I would be grateful for any input you may have.

Thanks in advance.
JulesCARV
05-14-07, 12:17 PM Well, this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but I couldn't help but notice a few similarities between your ideas and my idea of the kshatriya (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823979). Thematically, it's a aristocratic, courtly knight-in-shining-armor type class. Some of them are psionic (to represent the fantasy trope of those with inborn magical power founding noble lineages), although there's also a more fighter-type, non-psionic route. (They face a "branch choice" at level 4, much like the ranger's level 2 decision about whether to be TWFers or archers) Their psionics is a mix of psychic warrior-style combat powers and telepath-style mental influence powers.

They don't use "invocation-style" psionics, though: they just manifest them normally.
Kiklio
05-14-07, 04:19 PM Try making it based on Charisma. There's one really cool character in Marvel that is a psionic, charismatic fighter. He has incredible physical ability, but only when he has complete confidence in his abilities. His confidence fuels his abilities. I was thinking of making a variant Wilder based on this concept, but full-base fighter types fit the image better. Kinda like the warblade.

On a side-note, I believe the class would do better with mechanics involving a psionic focus (expend, retain, or mantra) rather than having a warlock-esque repetoire of psi-like abilities.

The class could be like this. It's a fighter that can intuitively make predictions about the battlefield by judging those around him. This is like the Equilibrium gun kata, but using subconscious boosts to his perception. Class features would involve using this sense. Expend focus, gain bonuses. Lose bonuses when you get hit, damaged, whatever. Or maybe the bonuses just change. The class could have attack and defense modes. In attack, he gains X, Y, and Z effects, some of which could be effects from existing psionic powers. If he gets damaged enough, he shifts into defense mode, and gains A, B, and C bonuses.

He could get sudden strike, to encourage feinting and planning. It can use CHA for Sense Motive, and eventually for Concentration. It could get some bonus feats involving personal enhancement (retain focus psionic feats). Maybe it knows one to four psi-like abilities. Maybe he can't choose which ones he gets in every battle (like a crusader) or he can change the ones he receives each day (like a spirit shaman/society mind).

The key is not to make the class too "smart". What he's doing should come naturally to him. He should wonder why everyone doesn't know that a certain facial expression implies a feint. He should have absolute certainty that he knows where his enemies are. If he's wrong, he backs off until he can reassure himself. Like a barbarian losing steam.

Hope that helps. I kinda want to make this class myself, now.
Enchanter_Tom
05-14-07, 05:07 PM Why not just go marshall/ardent/mindspy/slayer and using feats like Deep Impact?

Or just give the divine mind full BAB.
Mercurius
05-14-07, 06:04 PM Why not just go marshall/ardent/mindspy/slayer and using feats like Deep Impact?

Or just give the divine mind full BAB.

Because a psionic character cannot currently meet the prereqs for the mindspy and I don't think it's a good enough PrC on its own. In addition, I lack (and have no plans to purchase), Complete Psionic, so ardents and divine minds are completely out anyway.

And, I want it to be a full base class, rather than some odd amalgamation of classes and prestige classes. In part because I don't want this character concept to be playable from level one, not after level 6 or something, partially because my campaigns are typically lower level.

@Kiklio, I am also a fan of Equilibrium, and that's some of the style I was thinking of... I do rather like your approach. Glad to see someone else likes the idea.

I'll have to look over JulesCARV's creation, but it doesn't sound entirely like what I'm wanting to put together.

Thanks all for the responses so far.
jennibert
05-21-07, 10:41 PM :bump:
hovnarr
05-22-07, 04:23 PM I was also tinkering with a full BAB psi class the other day. What I ended up with reminded me of a D&D version of the jedi - not a conversion mind you, but the concept felt similar.

That's the easiest way to describe it in short. Mechanically, it had traits from the monk, psywar and rogue classes - with a focus on acrobatic, telepathic, clairscentient and protective abilities. Might develop it to an actual class if it seems interesting.
Mercurius
05-23-07, 07:10 AM I've gotta admit, that's in part the sort of idea that comes to mind for me, too. That's sort of the idea here...

Sorry I haven't posted much lately. I've been crazy busy with my two jobs, so I haven't had the wherewithall to come up with any rudimentary mechanics or anything like I meant to. I hope to rectify that soon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mercurius 05-14-07, 10:56 AM	Hello, all. I've been considering the idea of a full-BAB psionic class for a while now. Nothing like the psychic warrior getting a boost or anything like that, and I've already adopted the marksman from Untapped Potential for my campaign, but I like equilibrium, and looking at the available classes out there, there are two full-BAB classes for divine and arcane casters (ranger & paladin, duskblade & hexblade), and I want there to be two for the psionic side as well. My basic idea at the moment is to take the concept of the Mindspy from Complete Warrior and transform it into a full core class built around psionics. I'm thinking of modeling its abilities not on PP and powers known, but something closer to the warlock and psi-like abilities, instead. This class is a warrior who uses his intuition and inherent psionic power to read the minds of his enemies and make himself that much deadlier. So, general brainstorming at this point: 1: He needs to have Read Thoughts as an ability, possibly as early as first level. 2: He gains bonuses when fighting an opponent who he is currently reading the thoughts of, both to AC and attacks 3: possibly give the class something mechanically similar to a barbarian's rage... x/day, or maybe by expending psionic focus, he gains a bonus to attack, damage, and AC against one opponent while he focuses on their thoughts and reacts accordingly. This has the benefit of not relying on enemies to fail Will saves, and possibly could be offset by suffering penalties against other opponents (not entirely unlike some ToB stances) 4: Sense Motive, Bluff, etc, should probably be on his skill list... maybe even a 4 skill point class 5: Not sure if Wisdom or Charisma should be his DC stat, though. I'm thinking Wisdom for reading (sense motive is tied to it and all), but there's a fair amount of wisdom running around in Psionics already, and, like I've said, I like a bit of equilibrium... 6: If we go the invocation-esque route, a quick perusal of the XPH for powers that fit the flavor I'm thinking (mostly mind-reading/control, a bit of precognition... vaguely Jedi, though that's not the impetus) leads me to the following tentative list: first level: Call to Mind, Conceal Thoughts, Daze, Psionic, Demoralize, Distract, Empathy, Empty Mind, Precognition (Defensive & Offensive), Offensive Prescience, Telempathic Projection, Mind Link, Precognition second level: Cloud Mind, Detect Hostile Intent, Id Insinuation, Inflict Pain, Mental Disruption, Share Pain, Thought Shield, Read Thoughts, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Object Reading third level: Danger Sense, Mental Barrier, Mind Trap, Psionic Blast, Forced Share Pain, Touchsight, Ubiquitous Vision, Crisis of Breath, Hostile Empathic Transfer, False Sensory Input fourth level: Aura Sight, Correspond, Detect Remote Viewing, Empathic Feedback, Intellect Fortress, Mindwipe, Psionic Modify Memory, Remote Viewing, Control Body fifth level: Catapsi, Leech Field, Power Resistance, Psychic Crush, Shatter Mind Blank, Tower of Iron Will, Psionic True Seeing, Mind Probe, Second Chance sixth level: Aura Alteration, Mass Cloud Mind, Co-Opt Concentration, Remote View Trap, Suspend Life, Mind Switch, Greater Precognition Seventh level: Evade Burst, Insanity, Personal Mind Blank, Psionic Moment of Prescience, Crisis of Life, Fate of One, Reddopsi eighth level: Psionic Mind Blank, Recall Death, True Metabolism, Hypercognition ninth level: Affinity Field, Apopsi, Microcosm, True Mind Switch, Metafaculty 7: A higher level, multiple opponent mind reading ability would probably be a good thing, much like the mindspy class feature. 8: If we require the Read Thoughts ability to be active to gain bonuses, we'd need to give the class some way of concentrating while attacking, which means something like the Mindspy's combat telepathy ability. This is one reason I like the more barbarian-rage style class feature option instead... 9: Probably give the class a good Will save and Fort Save, or maybe take a page from the scout and swashbuckler and give it one good save and one save boosting class feature... If so, which to favor, and which to go with the class feature? a good Will save and the Scout's Battle Fortitude ability would be kinda nice - the bonus to Fort saves and Initiative would jive well with the somewhat precognitive ideas of the class, and it's an established ability with established progression. 10: possibly follow the Bardic Music model of keying the mind reading boost to Sense Motive, giving bigger benefits with higher ranks in the skill... ------- That's the general framework of my concept at the moment. Any ideas, feedback, criticism, etc from the psionics community would be great. I'm really loving psionics, but I haven't gotten as into it as some of the people on these boards, and I would be grateful for any input you may have. Thanks in advance.
JulesCARV 05-14-07, 12:17 PM	Well, this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but I couldn't help but notice a few similarities between your ideas and my idea of the kshatriya (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823979). Thematically, it's a aristocratic, courtly knight-in-shining-armor type class. Some of them are psionic (to represent the fantasy trope of those with inborn magical power founding noble lineages), although there's also a more fighter-type, non-psionic route. (They face a "branch choice" at level 4, much like the ranger's level 2 decision about whether to be TWFers or archers) Their psionics is a mix of psychic warrior-style combat powers and telepath-style mental influence powers. They don't use "invocation-style" psionics, though: they just manifest them normally.
Kiklio 05-14-07, 04:19 PM	Try making it based on Charisma. There's one really cool character in Marvel that is a psionic, charismatic fighter. He has incredible physical ability, but only when he has complete confidence in his abilities. His confidence fuels his abilities. I was thinking of making a variant Wilder based on this concept, but full-base fighter types fit the image better. Kinda like the warblade. On a side-note, I believe the class would do better with mechanics involving a psionic focus (expend, retain, or mantra) rather than having a warlock-esque repetoire of psi-like abilities. The class could be like this. It's a fighter that can intuitively make predictions about the battlefield by judging those around him. This is like the Equilibrium gun kata, but using subconscious boosts to his perception. Class features would involve using this sense. Expend focus, gain bonuses. Lose bonuses when you get hit, damaged, whatever. Or maybe the bonuses just change. The class could have attack and defense modes. In attack, he gains X, Y, and Z effects, some of which could be effects from existing psionic powers. If he gets damaged enough, he shifts into defense mode, and gains A, B, and C bonuses. He could get sudden strike, to encourage feinting and planning. It can use CHA for Sense Motive, and eventually for Concentration. It could get some bonus feats involving personal enhancement (retain focus psionic feats). Maybe it knows one to four psi-like abilities. Maybe he can't choose which ones he gets in every battle (like a crusader) or he can change the ones he receives each day (like a spirit shaman/society mind). The key is not to make the class too "smart". What he's doing should come naturally to him. He should wonder why everyone doesn't know that a certain facial expression implies a feint. He should have absolute certainty that he knows where his enemies are. If he's wrong, he backs off until he can reassure himself. Like a barbarian losing steam. Hope that helps. I kinda want to make this class myself, now.
Enchanter_Tom 05-14-07, 05:07 PM	Why not just go marshall/ardent/mindspy/slayer and using feats like Deep Impact? Or just give the divine mind full BAB.
Mercurius 05-14-07, 06:04 PM	Why not just go marshall/ardent/mindspy/slayer and using feats like Deep Impact? Or just give the divine mind full BAB. Because a psionic character cannot currently meet the prereqs for the mindspy and I don't think it's a good enough PrC on its own. In addition, I lack (and have no plans to purchase), Complete Psionic, so ardents and divine minds are completely out anyway. And, I want it to be a full base class, rather than some odd amalgamation of classes and prestige classes. In part because I don't want this character concept to be playable from level one, not after level 6 or something, partially because my campaigns are typically lower level. @Kiklio, I am also a fan of Equilibrium, and that's some of the style I was thinking of... I do rather like your approach. Glad to see someone else likes the idea. I'll have to look over JulesCARV's creation, but it doesn't sound entirely like what I'm wanting to put together. Thanks all for the responses so far.
jennibert 05-21-07, 10:41 PM	:bump:
hovnarr 05-22-07, 04:23 PM	I was also tinkering with a full BAB psi class the other day. What I ended up with reminded me of a D&D version of the jedi - not a conversion mind you, but the concept felt similar. That's the easiest way to describe it in short. Mechanically, it had traits from the monk, psywar and rogue classes - with a focus on acrobatic, telepathic, clairscentient and protective abilities. Might develop it to an actual class if it seems interesting.
Mercurius 05-23-07, 07:10 AM	I've gotta admit, that's in part the sort of idea that comes to mind for me, too. That's sort of the idea here... Sorry I haven't posted much lately. I've been crazy busy with my two jobs, so I haven't had the wherewithall to come up with any rudimentary mechanics or anything like I meant to. I hope to rectify that soon.