Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bacris 09-15-07, 06:13 PM	It kind of bugs me how few HP Touch of Health from Complete Psionics heals... For example, Cure Light Wounds heals on average 5 hp at 1st level, while Touch of Health heals only 2. At 3rd level, Cure Moderate Wounds heals on average 12 HP, while Touch of Health is only 6... It's been one of my biggest complaints playing an Ardent with the Life mantle. At 11th level, yeah, I can get a heal that heals 5 hp per power point, but the game is already half over... and right now, I'm using potions of cure light wounds instead of one of my powers known, seems kind of silly. What kind of balance issue would be raised upping it to 3 HP per PP? Then at 3rd level, it'd be 9 HP... which is about on par with the cure spells, except without the + caster level bonus.
AntiDjinn 09-15-07, 06:43 PM	At two points of healing per power point invested it is already more efficient than a psion investing 5 points on Body Adjustment (an average return of 1.3 hit points per power point). The psion has to throw many dice of a 3rd level power to beat the hit point/power point ratio of this 1st level power. The Psychic Warrior version is more efficient (2.17 average hit points returned for a 3 power point investment, and it gets better with augmentation) but also 2nd level. Touch of Health is tied with elan resilience, which is generally considered inefficient, so I guess there is room for improvement. 3 points healed per power point would probably be reasonable. The major advantage this power offers over cure wounds spells is certainty. If you have ever had a cleric drop a handful of d8's in a critical situation and roll all 1's and 2's then you have learned that randomness does not favor the PC. If you need to heal a party member 12 points then you can do exactly that. It is why a paladin's Laying on Hands and monk's Wholeness of body are considered decent specials despite their meager totals; no surprises, no variables.
Bacris 09-15-07, 06:48 PM	But one thing to consider for Touch of Health vs Cure - even at the lowest roll, 1st level Cure is on par with 1st level Touch of Health (2 hp each), and 3rd level Cure Moderate is just about on par with 3pp Touch of Health (2 + 3 vs 6). Given that Touch of Health essentially is "Minimized Cure", I consider a minor bump reasonable :) Just trying to see if there's something I'm not considering in this.
InkBlot 09-15-07, 07:20 PM	Just like scorching ray and polar ray are were collapsed into energy ray, and summon monster i through ix were collapsed into astral construct; this is what the cure x wounds spells should look like as a psionic power: Cure Wounds Pychometabolism (healing) Level: Egoist 1, Life 1 Display: Material and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text Power Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text Power Points: 1 When laying your hand upon a living creature, you take control of it's natural healing process to cure it 1d8+1 points of damage. At your option, this power can deal damage to living creatures instead of curing their wounds. The target can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage. Augment: You can manifest this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power cures or causes an additional 1d8+2 points of damage. 2. If you spend 8 additional power points, the range of this power becomes close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) and it can target one creature per manifester level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. For each individual target by the power, you can select whether to cure or damage it. In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
AntiDjinn 09-15-07, 10:08 PM	I wouldn't worry about balancing it against Cure Wounds X, healing and restorative magics (to others) has always been the purview of the divine. I would only make sure it is balanced against other forms of psionic healing. Looking at an ardent's options at various manifester levels vs. other psionic healing: 1 or 2 points: Ardent: Touch of Health heals 2 or 4 points. Works on others. Can damage undead. The mantle ability allows the ML cap to be boosted by 1 so a 1st level ardent can spend 2 points to heal 4, and at second can spend 3 to heal 6. Psychic Warrior: Nothing Psion: Nothing Winner: Ardent. 3 points: Ardent: Touch of Health 6 points. Psychic Warrior: Body Adjustment, average = 6.5 points, self-only, no option to harm undead. Also: Empathic Transfer average 11 points though no net healing takes place; you are simply transferring wounds from another to yourself. I am not going to carry this one into further steps since by itself it doesn't fix the problem of a shortage of hit points in the party. Psion: Nothing, unless you are an egoist, in which case Empathic Transfer its available. Winner: Psychic Warrior, as long as you are not worried about healing others. 5 points: Ardent: Touch of Health 10 points. Psychic Warrior: Body Adjustment average 13 points, self-only. Psion: Body Adjustment average 6.5 points. Winner: Psychic Warrior. Big time looser: Psion. 7 points: Ardent: Touch of Health 14 points Psychic Warrior: Body Adjustment average 19.5 Psion: Body Adjustment average 13 points. Winner: Psychic Warrior 9 points: Ardent: Touch of Health 18 points Psychic Warrior: Body Adjustment average 26 points. By this point, the PsW is more likely using Vampiric Weapon, Hostile Empathic Transfer, or similar for the bulk of his self-healing. Psion: Body Adjustment average 19.5 points. Also more likely to be using something else. The psion does pull ahead of the ardent briefly. Winner: Psychic Warrior. Looser: Ardent, falls behind even the psion, though he still has an easier time healing others and can damage undead with this power. 11 points: Ardent: Mend Wounds: 55 points. Psychic Warrior: Body Adjustment average 32.5 points. Psion: Body Adjustment average 26 points. Winner: Ardent. Big looser: Psion, should stop bothering with Body Adjustment and use more offensive healing, or use Expanded Knowledge to grab the PsW version. 13 points (as far as we need to take this): Ardent: Mend Wounds: 65 points Psychic Warrior: Body Adjustment average 39 points. Psion: Body Adjustment average 32.5 points. Winner: Ardent, this trend continues. So an ardent with the Life mantle could use a boost from ML 3 to 10 range, but after ML 11 none of the other manifesting classes can touch him. 3 hit points healed per power point spent would probably work. At least you would not be competing with your own 6th level power, Mend Wounds. It would mean the psion could just as well write-off Body Adjustment, but that may already be the case.
kyeudo 09-16-07, 06:30 PM	I once crunched the average healing per caster level for all the cure spells when cast at their minimum caster level, and most of the spells came out at aproximately 3 hp per caster level, so that bump would be right in line. I'd also change touch of health so it worked by speeding natural healing with psionic power, and so healed without positive energy, but only could heal the living. Then again, this is my personal opinion and so has no relavence in the realm of game balance.
DracoPhoenix 09-17-07, 08:39 AM	When I looked at Touch of Healing, it seemed like Cure Light Wounds, Minimised. CLW(min) @ L1 = 1+1 = 2hp ToH @ L1 = 2hp CMW(min) @ L3 = 2+3 = 5hp ToH @ L3 = 6hp CSW(min) @ L5 = 3+5 = 8hp ToH @ L5 = 10hp So while the damage healed slow increases on the against C?W, it increases against the base value. Cure / Vigor sticks are more useful before L11. Remind me again how this power makes the Ardent a valid alternate healing class? (It's bad enough the Ardent has such a small powers known list. But to have to spend one on this as a party healer... :rant:)
Istarion 09-17-07, 11:27 AM	The only way I've found to make ToH a valid out of combat healing power has been comboing it with either Earth Power or Midnight Augmentation, But that means to add a one or two feat investment to your power known.
Bacris 09-17-07, 11:38 AM	Thanks for the feedback, guys :) And for clarification - psionic healing has always sucked - the best combos are more loopholes like share pain + vigor + psicrystal + empathic transfer, rather than "true" healing. This is all fine and dandy if you have a cleric, druid, favored soul, or the like, but my party doesn't - I'm an ardent, and I'm the only healer in the group, unless you count the rogue with UMD. We're going with 3 HP / pp for the time being. :) Should help out considerably until 11th level, when I can do massive healing (or until I get a torc of power preservation).
Racinante 09-17-07, 03:35 PM	When I looked at Touch of Healing, it seemed like Cure Light Wounds, minimized. Just to clarify, including the mantle ability CLW(min) @ L1 = 1+1 = 2 hp CLW(avg) @ L1 = 4.5+1 = 5.5 hp ToH @ L1 = 4hp ToH+ = 6 CMW(min) @ L3 = 2+3 = 5 hp CMW(avg) @ L3 = 9+3 = 12 hp ToH @ L3 = 8hp ToH+ = 11 CSW(min) @ L5 = 3+5 = 8hp CSW(avg) @ L5 = 13.5+5 = 18.5 hp ToH @ L5 = 12hp ToH+ = 17 Which places ToH at approximately the first quartile of the cure series. Bumping ToH to 3 (ie ToH+) puts the ardent just below the clerical average. The ardent healing is closer to the paladin, then the cleric.
Bacris 09-17-07, 04:27 PM	I don't have my book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the granted ability from the Life domain only raises your ML - it doesn't freely augment it. So you really still have to base in on resource allocation, not by how much you can put in.
Racinante 09-17-07, 04:43 PM	Correct. I was merely looking at potential. To round out the discussion, a comparison between spells per day and power points would also be necessary. I too do not have the book available at this time.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-17-07, 05:37 PM	Wilder ! Touch of Health is available at 1st level to a Mantled Wilder. Certainly, the power point efficiency is greater with the Wilder. Educated Wilder can choose ToH at 5th level. Wilder also can do re-charge earlier than the others. A re-charge can't be done in combat, so it forces that Wilder to be sub-par in every other way, including combat healing. Dude - your Quarterstaff damages Undead better. Never-the-less, given enough time, a re-charge Wilder heals OK.
Psionx 09-17-07, 06:24 PM	Meh, I'd prefer that there be a feat allowing psions to substitute positive energy on Energy X powers. That way you could have the useless blaster become more useful. Alternatively: Positive Energy Adaptation (Psionic) Prerequisites: Must have been affected by positive energy. Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You may substitute positive energy for powers that allow various choices of energy types. Normal: You can only choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic energy for powers that allow various choices of energy types. Negative Energy Adaptation (Psionic) Prerequisites: Must have been affected by negative energy. Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You may substitute negative energy for powers that allow various choices of energy types. Normal: You can only choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic energy for powers that allow various choices of energy types. Negative energy would be helpful alot less often, but still useful at times.
InkBlot 09-17-07, 07:20 PM	The problem with those feats is that you don't state what positive and negative energy do. Positive energy doesn't universaly heal. There are plenty of affects that kill living creatures by zapping them with positive energy, or do even weirder things (like make tables and spoons dance around). You can't rely on people's assumptions to fill in the holes.
Bacris 09-17-07, 07:22 PM	Wilder ! Except I'm already playing an Ardent ;) Having to be relegated to only healer, since wilders already get so few powers known, doesn't seem like a good fix.
DracoPhoenix 09-18-07, 03:41 AM	Just to clarify, including the mantle ability <snip>....</snip> Which places ToH at approximately the first quartile of the cure series. Bumping ToH to 3 (ie ToH+) puts the ardent just below the clerical average. The ardent healing is closer to the paladin, then the cleric. I also forgot the Clerics +1 CL for the healing domain (ok, +1hp, but they don't have to pop focus). Thought the ML boost was only +1ML? Which is just a flat +2hp. WotC seem to really have a problem with anyone other than a cleric being optimum at healing... :(
CrimsonDeath 09-18-07, 04:25 AM	I also forgot the Clerics +1 CL for the healing domain (ok, +1hp, but they don't have to pop focus). Thought the ML boost was only +1ML? Which is just a flat +2hp. WotC seem to really have a problem with anyone other than a cleric being optimum at healing... :( The Healing domain is generally regarded as a poor domain choice. Sure, that +1 HP is pretty good at levels 1-4, but around level 8 it's nearly irrelevant, and at level 15, not even Heal benefits from the caster level bonus any more. (It's pretty good for evil clerics with the PHB2 Domain Spontaneity variant, if they want to be healbots, though.)
DracoPhoenix 09-18-07, 05:43 AM	The Healing domain is generally regarded as a poor domain choice. Sure, that +1 HP is pretty good at levels 1-4, but around level 8 it's nearly irrelevant, and at level 15, not even Heal benefits from the caster level bonus any more. (It's pretty good for evil clerics with the PHB2 Domain Spontaneity variant, if they want to be healbots, though.) True, admittedly the Ardent is more akin to a domain only cleric in terms of spells available (But at least he gets more than 2 domains). I've seen the domain spontaneity feat in Comp. Divine - is that the same as the PHB2 one? (pop turning for domain spells) If so, I would have thought spontaneous casting of healing would be quite useful? (normal spont. casting is cure titled spells.)
CrimsonDeath 09-18-07, 05:49 AM	True, admittedly the Ardent is more akin to a domain only cleric in terms of spells available (But at least he gets more than 2 domains). I've seen the domain spontaneity feat in Comp. Divine - is that the same as the PHB2 one? (pop turning for domain spells) If so, I would have thought spontaneous casting of healing would be quite useful? (normal spont. casting is cure titled spells.) The PHB2 variant lets you pick a domain, and spontaneously cast spells from that domain instead of Cure or Inflict spells. Your Domain slots can be used to prepare spells from your other domain, or Cure spells (or Inflict spells if you're evil). This may allow some evil clerics to spontaneously cast spells from the Healing domain, rather than Inflict spells.
DracoPhoenix 09-18-07, 05:56 AM	The PHB2 variant lets you pick a domain, and spontaneously cast spells from that domain instead of Cure or Inflict spells. Your Domain slots can be used to prepare spells from your other domain, or Cure spells (or Inflict spells if you're evil). This may allow some evil clerics to spontaneously cast spells from the Healing domain, rather than Inflict spells. Cool, Thanks - I'll bear that in mind. I'm rolling a cleric for a mini-campaign atm.
Lycanthromancer 09-18-07, 01:34 PM	Part of the drawback with making it a flat rate rather than dice of damage is that metapsionics can't improve your manifesting much. Granted, as pointed out earlier, it's more efficient this way, but if you choose metapsionics, then your efficiency actually goes down. I do agree that ToH's efficiency needs to be increased, however.
AntiDjinn 09-18-07, 02:52 PM	The ability of Touch of Health to damage undead is likely mentioned only because it is a consequence of the power channeling positive energy (as opposed to healing by manipulation of biological processes like Body Adjustment), not because it is being put forth as a serious undead killer. The damage is low and it allows a Will save for half. Undead generally have some pretty fearsome special attacks and defenses; if you are hand to hand with one of them, and Touch of Health is the best idea you can come up with, then you are probably going to die. Against undead that pose a real threat to your character, if you use a power you are going to want to blast them from a distance. More likely, you are going to choose a power that debuffs, immobilizes, or negates their special advantages. Against undead who don't pose a serious threat, well, why waste the points? As an ardent you have a medium BAB and are probably holding a weapon that can dish out better damage overall than Touch of Health. Even though this aspect of the power is minor, if you are going to bump the healing/damage to 3 per power point, I would also eliminate the Will save for half. Since it requires you to make an attack roll to hit your target's touch AC when used offensively, it should not also allow a save for half.
CrimsonDeath 09-18-07, 03:00 PM	Since it requires you to make an attack roll to hit your target's touch AC when used offensively, it should not also allow a save for half. Cure and Inflict spells require touch attacks and allow Will saves for half.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-18-07, 06:31 PM	My avatar thinks Crimson Death's avatar is ... pretty !!! Bacris - Ardent already, huh? Aren't Touch powers chain-able? And if not, perhaps this would be a reasonable exception. If so, then the new Ardent 10 dominant ideal thingy speeds things up. Come to think of it, are any powers legitimately chain-able?
InkBlot 09-18-07, 06:37 PM	Very few powers are chain-able. Touch of health is not, because it doesn't deal fire, cold, electricity, sonic, or acid damage.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-18-07, 06:49 PM	{ ... psychologist voice ... } "So how does starring at this InkBlot make you feel ?" :tissue: "sad" Weren't they talking about adapting Pos/Neg energy into Energy powers? Oops - too much assumed mind reading. Psionx is a they? Hey look! Phrenic Dolphins! { ... trying to distract attention away from ... }
Lycanthromancer 09-18-07, 07:44 PM	Someone's had insanity reddopsi'd back at him, huh? (And it should read: "Look! It's a demonic duck (http://www.ookii.org/egs/statistics/images/demonicduck.gif)!")
AntiDjinn 09-19-07, 12:21 AM	Cure and Inflict spells require touch attacks and allow Will saves for half. ToH is effectively Cure/Inflict minimized. So you have to get into HTH range with undead, treat him as effectively having used Damp Power for free on your Cure, then also allow him a save to halve the remainder. Like I said, no one actually uses this ability offensively as written. It was just included to match other positive energy effects in the game.
CrimsonDeath 09-19-07, 03:12 AM	ToH is effectively Cure/Inflict minimized. So you have to get into HTH range with undead, treat him as effectively having used Damp Power for free on your Cure, then also allow him a save to halve the remainder. Like I said, no one actually uses this ability offensively as written. It was just included to match other positive energy effects in the game. Oh, I agree you'd be better off with Energy Ray (a subpar choice as it is). I'm just saying there's precedent for melee-touch-save-for-half spells and powers, including the spell that Touch of Health has been compared to the most in this thread.
Psionx 09-19-07, 11:39 AM	Damn, will saves are supposed to be good for me, shouldn't have taken wisdom as a dump stat I guess... Anyway, just have the feat specify an energy description (under the special section) like one of the other damage types does. Fire This energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Negative Energy This energy type heals undead or damages living creatures for an equal amount. The saving throw to reduce damage from negative energy is a Will save instead of a Reflex save. Positive Energy This energy type heals living creatures or damages undead for an equal amount. The saving throw to reduce damage from positive energy is a Will save instead of a Reflex save. This makes it good against fighters and ppl with good reflex saves.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-19-07, 03:20 PM	insanity reddopsi'd (mock horror voice) " I am not engaging in random actions, harrumph ! "