Buying Powers? (Psychic Chirurgery) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buying Powers? (Psychic Chirurgery) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DM-Scott
07-10-07, 11:33 PM OK, I have at least one psionic character in my current group that want to spend their hard earned gold and resources on having psionic powers "released from their subconscious" with the use of psychic chirurgery. I'd actually like to do this with my telepath in the same group's campaign. I've been looking this power for a while, and I think I will allow this. But I want to see what everyone else thinks of the idea, and to see if there are any massive problems that may arise because of it.

The price seems to be the cost of manifesting the power (like spell casting services) plus 1000 XP x level of the power bestowed (no higher than 8th because you can't get 9th level powers through this power until epic levels due to expanded knowledge feats), or 5000gp x power level (1xp = 5gp).

So the cost for a 1st level power would be about.
6,530gp OR 4030gp + 500 XP

At the party's current level (5th), that's more money than any single one of them have available. Some of the party members have been dropping a few grand into some +1 ability boosters like lesser gauntlets of ogre strength, lesser headbands of intellect, and lesser amulets of health (1000gp each).

The party's wilder is the most interested in this because he likes the idea of being able to manifest powers like detect psionics without dojres and power stones, and so far I don't really see a major problem with what they're gaining for the price it's taking them to gain it.

Currently the party's wilder and telepath are considering pooling their money to help each other learn some powers from a "master psion" once they reach a large city that the entire party is traveling to.

Anyone familiar with a use like this for this power?
AntiDjinn
07-11-07, 01:00 AM Yes, you have the basic cost formula down for a standard game with manifesters for hire. This assumes the service is available (probably a large city or place where manifesters congregate), has the unspent XP on hand, and is willing to provide the service. You will need the services of a telepath of at least 17th level, or an ardent, wilder, or non-telepath psion of at least 21st level. Nothing scales with this power except range (which is irrelevant) so there is no advantage to having it manifest by someone above 17th level except that higher level characters are more likely to know the power you wish to learn. Note that a 25th level manifester is going to charge for his 25th level time and effort and is unlikely to reduce his price just because you point out that a lower level manifester could as easily provide this service.

The 5 gp per XP cost is standard. Note: Learning a 5th level power costs you the same as having someone cast a Wish for you.

If you don't want the final prices to be so cookie cutter (many DMs dislike their high level NPCs being treated like phone ops at a mail order catalog) then add a few fudge factors:

1) How bad do you want it? Believe me, a high level telepath can tell how bad you want what he has to sell. On just Sense Motive alone he should know how high he can jack up the price without loosing the sale.

2) Is there competition? Who else is selling the powers he is selling and are they nearby? This will factor into #1 as well. A manifester who had use Epic Expanded Knowledge to learn the power is going to charge more for using it (it cost him more character resources to be able to provide the service) unless there is a telepath in town who charges less for the same.

3) How bad does the vendor need money? Rarely an issue, he is probably much higher level than the PC, so has a higher earning potential. Also, if cash alone is the issue, then Fabricate is a cash cow without an XP cost.

4) How much does the NPC like the PC? What have you done for me? What favors might you be willing to do? Services provided may bring the price way down. Calling in a favor may bring it way down. Or the service may be provided for free as payment for a quest.

5) What are the ethics and morals of the vendor? A scrupulous seller might have a personal policy against price gouging. For a telepath without morals or ethics, it is actually easier to dominate the PC, make him hand over the cash, then make him forget the incident than to spend XP on Psy Chi.

6) Are there potential consequences for the vendor? Teaching someone Mind Blank, Personal means there is one more person out there who can make trouble for you. Teaching Psy Chi itself means you are trainig a potential competitor. Teaching a lunatic Mind Seed could have unforeseen consequences. Sometimes the vendor may really jack the price up or just say No if it seems like it is going to be more trouble than it is worth.

How much should econ fudge factors amount to? How much more cash does your PC have than you would like him to? How much higher do you estimate his ability to mow down monsters and accumulate treasure will be after the power graft?

Also, before your PC go getting happy with new powers via Psy Chi, remind them that if they have old powers that they don't use or want anymore, they can trade them in much more cheaply with Psychic Reformation. The advantage to reformation is the manifester doesn't need to know the power you are learning since he is simply reshaping your mental pathways to unlock a power whose potential was already there. The downside is you can't learn a power that is off your list.
Jaid
07-11-07, 09:05 PM also, as i recall, there is a caveat in one of the core books (PHB section where cost of spellcasting services is mentioned?) that says something to the effect of "spells costing over 5,000 gp are not normally granted unless the person asking performs a service of some sort blah blah blah..." (loosely paraphrased, of course ;)

so i would say don't just let them buy it with gold, make them work for it =P
AntiDjinn
07-12-07, 12:45 AM Seriously. When was last time a PC in your game spent thousands of XP on behalf of an NPC, either for money, items, or a personal favor? They really should not expect that your world is stacked to the rafters with NPC's ready and willing to do so for them. If the first thing they do when the meet a powerful NPC is grope for the coin slot, then something is wrong.

A power learned from anyone other than another PC is a DM gimme. You provide the NPC manifester, you decide the terms, you decide what powers he is willing to impart. When you get right down to it, even the gold they are spending came from the DM if they found it as loot or were paid it as a reward.

I probably don't even need to bring this up, but if you are also of a mind to mess with them, a character dropping his power defense and willingly submitting to a telepathic intrusion and rewiring of his psyche provides a golden opportunity for a BBEG. Maybe he paid three times what the PCs were offering to mess with their heads instead of teaching them new powers. Even if you don't do something like this, just mentioning it as a possibility will make them cagey when approaching potential psionic contractors. Paranoid players can be quite entertaining.
Yorath_theWolf
08-02-07, 04:23 PM dn'na know if this counts as thread necromancy or not, but as I rember a WE for PHBII. basically there's a wiz spell there that allows you to cull 'essence'(xp) from whoever you're makeing things for/applying spells to. so perhaps a use of that in the service _plus_ performing the job for the person doing this to you?
awaken_D_M_golem
08-02-07, 07:09 PM I googled jameswilliamogle and psychic chirurgery for one of my old favorites.
Second hit of Two, only!

09-02-05, 01:12 AM
So anybody could do this, but I wanted to add it to my sig, just so it would be convenient.

The following is the estimated cost for someone to manifest Psychic Chirurgery to grant you one of their powers known. I used the standard equipment section in the PHB to estimate the cost of casting a spell of 9th level, and the section that says that 1 XP is equivalent to 5 GP for NPC casting services. The only problem is that it expressly states that spells that cost over 3000 GP are not routinely available. Still, I think the table provides some value.

It uses the following equation:
Manifester Level x 90 GP + 1000 XP x 5 GP / XP; I used 17th level for the table; to go higher just add 90 gp per level

level..........cost (GP)
1..................6530
2.................11530
3.................16530
4.................21530
5.................26530
6.................31530
7.................36530
8.................41530
9.................46530

There's an interesting result here: a psion of 9th level will have about 15000 gp, and can't afford anything but the lowest 2 levels of powers, but at 17th level, will be able to learn even 2 9th level powers immediately! My suggestion: learn Psychic Chirurgery, then work out an "at cost" deal, trading powers of equal level, and maybe throwing in just a portion of the gold, just to sweeten the deal (do you think a 17th level telepath will blow off anyone that offers this and has cross-discipline powers? You tell me).

Anyways, the cost is still prohibitively expensive for everyone to do, but it makes sense to get a handful of powers that you missed. 4th and 5th level seem to have a lot of really useful powers, in particular. Don't be like Pokemon: you don't have to catch 'em all.

With the new Substitute Powers from ExCl4,
I'd give Tap Mantle top billing for every possible power up to 8th level.
The exception being 9th level powers, where an Erudite Cohort would do.
"Hey Cohort, mind if I muck with your mind a little while?"
"Umm, sure. You haven't killed and raised me yet."
Lycanthromancer
08-07-07, 05:33 PM Instead of psychic chirurgery, there's always mind seed.

Muahahahahahahahahaha!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM-Scott 07-10-07, 11:33 PM	OK, I have at least one psionic character in my current group that want to spend their hard earned gold and resources on having psionic powers "released from their subconscious" with the use of psychic chirurgery. I'd actually like to do this with my telepath in the same group's campaign. I've been looking this power for a while, and I think I will allow this. But I want to see what everyone else thinks of the idea, and to see if there are any massive problems that may arise because of it. The price seems to be the cost of manifesting the power (like spell casting services) plus 1000 XP x level of the power bestowed (no higher than 8th because you can't get 9th level powers through this power until epic levels due to expanded knowledge feats), or 5000gp x power level (1xp = 5gp). So the cost for a 1st level power would be about. 6,530gp OR 4030gp + 500 XP At the party's current level (5th), that's more money than any single one of them have available. Some of the party members have been dropping a few grand into some +1 ability boosters like lesser gauntlets of ogre strength, lesser headbands of intellect, and lesser amulets of health (1000gp each). The party's wilder is the most interested in this because he likes the idea of being able to manifest powers like detect psionics without dojres and power stones, and so far I don't really see a major problem with what they're gaining for the price it's taking them to gain it. Currently the party's wilder and telepath are considering pooling their money to help each other learn some powers from a "master psion" once they reach a large city that the entire party is traveling to. Anyone familiar with a use like this for this power?
AntiDjinn 07-11-07, 01:00 AM	Yes, you have the basic cost formula down for a standard game with manifesters for hire. This assumes the service is available (probably a large city or place where manifesters congregate), has the unspent XP on hand, and is willing to provide the service. You will need the services of a telepath of at least 17th level, or an ardent, wilder, or non-telepath psion of at least 21st level. Nothing scales with this power except range (which is irrelevant) so there is no advantage to having it manifest by someone above 17th level except that higher level characters are more likely to know the power you wish to learn. Note that a 25th level manifester is going to charge for his 25th level time and effort and is unlikely to reduce his price just because you point out that a lower level manifester could as easily provide this service. The 5 gp per XP cost is standard. Note: Learning a 5th level power costs you the same as having someone cast a Wish for you. If you don't want the final prices to be so cookie cutter (many DMs dislike their high level NPCs being treated like phone ops at a mail order catalog) then add a few fudge factors: 1) How bad do you want it? Believe me, a high level telepath can tell how bad you want what he has to sell. On just Sense Motive alone he should know how high he can jack up the price without loosing the sale. 2) Is there competition? Who else is selling the powers he is selling and are they nearby? This will factor into #1 as well. A manifester who had use Epic Expanded Knowledge to learn the power is going to charge more for using it (it cost him more character resources to be able to provide the service) unless there is a telepath in town who charges less for the same. 3) How bad does the vendor need money? Rarely an issue, he is probably much higher level than the PC, so has a higher earning potential. Also, if cash alone is the issue, then Fabricate is a cash cow without an XP cost. 4) How much does the NPC like the PC? What have you done for me? What favors might you be willing to do? Services provided may bring the price way down. Calling in a favor may bring it way down. Or the service may be provided for free as payment for a quest. 5) What are the ethics and morals of the vendor? A scrupulous seller might have a personal policy against price gouging. For a telepath without morals or ethics, it is actually easier to dominate the PC, make him hand over the cash, then make him forget the incident than to spend XP on Psy Chi. 6) Are there potential consequences for the vendor? Teaching someone Mind Blank, Personal means there is one more person out there who can make trouble for you. Teaching Psy Chi itself means you are trainig a potential competitor. Teaching a lunatic Mind Seed could have unforeseen consequences. Sometimes the vendor may really jack the price up or just say No if it seems like it is going to be more trouble than it is worth. How much should econ fudge factors amount to? How much more cash does your PC have than you would like him to? How much higher do you estimate his ability to mow down monsters and accumulate treasure will be after the power graft? Also, before your PC go getting happy with new powers via Psy Chi, remind them that if they have old powers that they don't use or want anymore, they can trade them in much more cheaply with Psychic Reformation. The advantage to reformation is the manifester doesn't need to know the power you are learning since he is simply reshaping your mental pathways to unlock a power whose potential was already there. The downside is you can't learn a power that is off your list.
Jaid 07-11-07, 09:05 PM	also, as i recall, there is a caveat in one of the core books (PHB section where cost of spellcasting services is mentioned?) that says something to the effect of "spells costing over 5,000 gp are not normally granted unless the person asking performs a service of some sort blah blah blah..." (loosely paraphrased, of course ;) so i would say don't just let them buy it with gold, make them work for it =P
AntiDjinn 07-12-07, 12:45 AM	Seriously. When was last time a PC in your game spent thousands of XP on behalf of an NPC, either for money, items, or a personal favor? They really should not expect that your world is stacked to the rafters with NPC's ready and willing to do so for them. If the first thing they do when the meet a powerful NPC is grope for the coin slot, then something is wrong. A power learned from anyone other than another PC is a DM gimme. You provide the NPC manifester, you decide the terms, you decide what powers he is willing to impart. When you get right down to it, even the gold they are spending came from the DM if they found it as loot or were paid it as a reward. I probably don't even need to bring this up, but if you are also of a mind to mess with them, a character dropping his power defense and willingly submitting to a telepathic intrusion and rewiring of his psyche provides a golden opportunity for a BBEG. Maybe he paid three times what the PCs were offering to mess with their heads instead of teaching them new powers. Even if you don't do something like this, just mentioning it as a possibility will make them cagey when approaching potential psionic contractors. Paranoid players can be quite entertaining.
Yorath_theWolf 08-02-07, 04:23 PM	dn'na know if this counts as thread necromancy or not, but as I rember a WE for PHBII. basically there's a wiz spell there that allows you to cull 'essence'(xp) from whoever you're makeing things for/applying spells to. so perhaps a use of that in the service _plus_ performing the job for the person doing this to you?
awaken_D_M_golem 08-02-07, 07:09 PM	I googled jameswilliamogle and psychic chirurgery for one of my old favorites. Second hit of Two, only! 09-02-05, 01:12 AM So anybody could do this, but I wanted to add it to my sig, just so it would be convenient. The following is the estimated cost for someone to manifest Psychic Chirurgery to grant you one of their powers known. I used the standard equipment section in the PHB to estimate the cost of casting a spell of 9th level, and the section that says that 1 XP is equivalent to 5 GP for NPC casting services. The only problem is that it expressly states that spells that cost over 3000 GP are not routinely available. Still, I think the table provides some value. It uses the following equation: Manifester Level x 90 GP + 1000 XP x 5 GP / XP; I used 17th level for the table; to go higher just add 90 gp per level level..........cost (GP) 1..................6530 2.................11530 3.................16530 4.................21530 5.................26530 6.................31530 7.................36530 8.................41530 9.................46530 There's an interesting result here: a psion of 9th level will have about 15000 gp, and can't afford anything but the lowest 2 levels of powers, but at 17th level, will be able to learn even 2 9th level powers immediately! My suggestion: learn Psychic Chirurgery, then work out an "at cost" deal, trading powers of equal level, and maybe throwing in just a portion of the gold, just to sweeten the deal (do you think a 17th level telepath will blow off anyone that offers this and has cross-discipline powers? You tell me). Anyways, the cost is still prohibitively expensive for everyone to do, but it makes sense to get a handful of powers that you missed. 4th and 5th level seem to have a lot of really useful powers, in particular. Don't be like Pokemon: you don't have to catch 'em all. With the new Substitute Powers from ExCl4, I'd give Tap Mantle top billing for every possible power up to 8th level. The exception being 9th level powers, where an Erudite Cohort would do. "Hey Cohort, mind if I muck with your mind a little while?" "Umm, sure. You haven't killed and raised me yet."
Lycanthromancer 08-07-07, 05:33 PM	Instead of psychic chirurgery, there's always mind seed. Muahahahahahahahahaha!