Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ninja1 06-22-07, 09:03 AM	Once a human becomes an Elan and gains the abberation type, could they mate with a human and produce human offspring or would you consider them sterile? I would think they are sterile, but I'm curious to see what others think...
Zarreth_Nessad 06-22-07, 09:23 AM	"Elans are not born, they are made. [...] Thus, Elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather psionically, ..." I'd say the book is pretty clear on whether or not Elans can have children. Otherwise, it's up to your DM.
SlanderPanic 06-22-07, 10:15 AM	What the OP is wanting to know is whether or not the plumbing still pumps (or accepts) human DNA. That'd be entirely a DM call. I'd probably say no, but that would really depend on the circumstances, whether or not it would be dramatic and fun. I, personally, play my elans as having a rather detached view of sexuality and other mortal concerns (such as eating and drinking.) They have memories of doing these things and may even partake from time to time out of curiosity, but don't feel a physical need to do so. They go through the processes with the same impassive manner as a scientist conducting an experiment. On the other hand, the word élan means "life." Perhaps their psionic metabolisms make elans supercharged with passion. Maybe, despite not needing to eat or drink or rut, they're gluttonous, alcoholic sex fiends.* It's up to you, really. It makes sense to me either way, and perhaps both populations are represented in the elans of your world. They might even be divided into factions: Some elans embrace the pure mentality of their psionic metabolism, seeking to travel further along the path to pure thought. (You could tie the Psion Uncarnate prestige class to them.) Others seek out the passions and pleasures of a life where they don't have to worry about gaining weight or unwanted pregnancies or addiction. These two groups argue and may even be outright hostile to each other. The single most important question is this: Would it be fun for you and your group if your elan character had a child? *That's a pop-culture reference. Whoever gets it wins a prize.
Caterpillar 06-22-07, 10:17 AM	"Elans are not born, they are made. [...] Thus, Elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather psionically, ..." I'd say the book is pretty clear on whether or not Elans can have children. Otherwise, it's up to your DM. The OP knows that they can't have an *elan* child. He is asking if they can have a human child though. TBH I was very close to posting this myself, I may have done it today actually. I am curious too. On another note, kind of a mature topic, but would Elans even want to go through act of it... um is there equipment still good? lol!
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-22-07, 10:18 AM	"Elans are not born, they are made. [...] Thus, Elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather psionically, ..." I'd say the book is pretty clear on whether or not Elans can have children. Otherwise, it's up to your DM. That's because actual elans are made by ritual. I think it's in the XPH (Races or Monsters section) that elans have children who are normal humans.
Alarich 06-22-07, 10:18 AM	Maybe they are still considered humans for these things... The XPH says only that elans are not born, but they're made, not they're sterile... I think that they are still considered humans for this things ( all in all they are aberrations only because they've an alien mind, right? )
DrowBattlemind 06-22-07, 10:19 AM	My rule? Since they're altered humans, they can mate. Can they reproduce? Yes and no, offspring would be merely human, to make more Elans one must CREATE an Elan from an already existant human (or humanoid).
Sarlax 06-22-07, 10:49 AM	With a straight reading, they can't mate with anything to have offspring: "Elans do not reproduce biologically." When humans and orcs make little half-orcs, they are reproducing, even though the offspring isn't a member of either parent's race. If elan could have any kind of biological offspring, whether human, elan, or other, they would be reproducing biologically - which they don't do. There also seem to be some differences between elan and human physiology, as demonstrated by the fact that elans are noticeably different than humans (otherwise they'd bypass the -2 penalty for disguising as members of a different race when imitating humans). The transformation ritual might wreck the plumbing. All that said, it might be possible if you read the text loosely and interpret it to mean, "Elans do not propagate their own race biologically." There's evidence that the ritual just augments human biology instead of warping it, since they can still eat and drink if they like. Maybe the ritual causes them to grow strange organs that can manufacture nutrients by burning psionic energy. If that or something similar is the case, maybe the reproductive gear is still intact. If it is, though, there's not much of a reason why it would be good enough for humans but not for other elans. Maybe it's damaged in the ritual and requires at least one fully viable partner to work. If this is the case, human/elan children might be sickly or weak.
Nephallim 06-22-07, 10:54 AM	As to whether altering their psionic metabolism alters their human verility...*shrugs* I'd say dependds on setting. In a setting a friend of mine created, Elan were a truebreeding race that had "created" themselves thousands of years ago. In Eberron, their prisons for Quori spirits that il-Lashtavar didn't like...so I'd think they'd be able to reproduce about as much as Kalashtar and Chosen can...which is to say: yes, they can. In another setting, their physiology might be altered so completely that they lack the equipment at all, or may simply have no libido. Up to the DM I say.
AntiDjinn 06-22-07, 11:46 AM	Like elan, mind flayers are also aberrations with formerly human physiology. They have a specific form of progeneration that is unique to their kind. They don't have the option to use the method formerly available to their body, and illithid can't mate with humans to produce either humans or illithid (that's why people have a problem with the illithid heritage feats, well, that and the fact that they are poorly written). So just because they used to be human does not mean they can still give birth to humans. Compare also to becoming a lich: you go through the process, your type changes to undead, and you can't thereafter have human children. The creature entry in the XPH says they don't reproduce. It does not appear to be limited to reproducing other elan, they don't reproduce. Period. If you want to be elan you go through the process, and when you are done you are an aberration and can no longer produce human offspring. Are all the parts still there? Can they have sex just for fun? Sure, but don't expect me to watch the vid of someone with a racial -2 Cha adjustment going at it.
ninja1 06-22-07, 12:00 PM	Yeah, I meant specifically "could they have human children?". I guess my big hang-up is with the Abberation creature type. *That's a pop-culture reference. Whoever gets it wins a prize. I'll admit, I didn't know, so I referred to my old friends the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elan) and the Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/elan). I'm still lost as to the "pop-culture" aspect to it... are you referring to one of the musical groups that use the word Elan in their name? That's because actual elans are made by ritual. I think it's in the XPH (Races or Monsters section) that elans have children who are normal humans. Hmmm, I may have overlooked that... I'll check out the flavor text when I get home. Are all the parts still there? Can they have sex just for fun? Sure, but don't expect me to watch the vid of someone with a racial -2 Cha adjustment going at it. Not even if they had started with an 18 ability score... ok, maybe this is too much for the non-Mature boards... (Ironic Naming?) :)
SlanderPanic 06-22-07, 12:15 PM	The specific line is a reference to an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. After the Dominion took over the station at the end of season 5, Quark and Leeta were discussing how the occupation would be bad for business. Quark: "The Jem'Hadar don't gamble, they don't eat, they don't drink, and they don't have sex." Leeta: "True, but maybe the Vorta are rich, gluttonous, alcoholic, gambling sex-fiends." Quark: "That's why I hired you, Leeta. You always find the bright side." On-topic, where is it written that illithids can't have sex? For that matter, where is it written than illithids can't use magic or psionics to create bizarre, fertile fusions of themselves and other creatures? Mind flayers are weeeeeird, after all. Illithid Heritage is still a waste of feats, but I don't find it that implausible.
CrimsonDeath 06-22-07, 12:26 PM	gluttonous, alcoholic sex fiends. [...] *That's a pop-culture reference. Whoever gets it wins a prize. Sounds like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Quark was worried about how the Jem-Hadar don't need anything he's selling, so someone was trying to cheer him up by suggesting how the Vorta might behave when they arrive. (Turns out they like to gamble, which is just as good.)
Fafnir 06-22-07, 01:29 PM	On-topic, where is it written that illithids can't have sex? For that matter, where is it written than illithids can't use magic or psionics to create bizarre, fertile fusions of themselves and other creatures? Mind flayers are weeeeeird, after all. Illithid Heritage is still a waste of feats, but I don't find it that implausible. Hentai tentacled Illithids?
Artector 06-22-07, 02:07 PM	I'd say any children from an elan/elan pairing would be human. Though they might be a little... weird. Hentai tentacled Illithids? Believe me, they exist, I've seen the pictures.
SlanderPanic 06-22-07, 02:31 PM	Elans' Charisma penalty comes from their alien mindset. I can imagine them having a hard time relating to children, whose needs are so firmly rooted in the biological. I'd imagine illithids are most likely to want to copulate after eating brains. While male illithids still have testosterone-producing organs, they also need estrogen to become aroused and estrogen is produced in the brain. Remember, illithids eat brains to supply their stolen bodies with hormones that the parasite itself cannot manufacture, but which the body still requires to stay healthy. Like sharks at a whale carcass, a group of engorged illithids could very well engage in a twisted orgy, possibly forcing the survivors to participate. It's not pretty, but it could make for an interesting backstory for a tragic hero or a tormented NPC. It could also explain Illithid Heritage feats, as some of the survivors escape, unwittingly carrying tainted offspring, a taint which may not manifest itself for generations. Hell, there are some sick and twisted humanoids out there who might actually seek out and seduce illithids after feeding them the brains from victims who were on a steady diet of aphrodisiacs. Such a villain could very well be attempting to breed a master race of illithid-tainted humans. This thread is getting pretty deep into Mature territory. Maybe a WizO will see fit to move it.
axenome 06-22-07, 03:13 PM	I don't personally see it being a problem myself- nobody here has gotten graphic about anything; it seems most of the readers are actually treating it in a fairly mature fashion. And it's a pretty bizarre society where graphic violence is casually discussed but sex- an act that is normal and joyful- is taboo. Can you imagine what it would be like if food was taboo and sex not? -Steak and Potatos would be the only condoned form of meal by the Catholic church, and solely for the purpose of nutrition. Weight loss products would be banned by the Vatican. -You'd see police breaking down the doors to arrest the hosts of neighborhood backyard barbecues. "Okay, buddy, step away from the barbecue. And drop the baster brush." -Home Ec would require a signed permission slip from the parents and be protested by "Protect our children" groups. -Locker room talk would be completely changed. "Hey Ed, how'd you do this weekend?" "Not bad, Bob- Two lobster tails and some sushi." Kudos to who can remember where that came from :D cause I can't:gah:
Sarlax 06-22-07, 03:54 PM	Elans' Charisma penalty comes from their alien mindset. Heh, it actually comes from a bad designer mindset that Charisma equates to how others perceive you - but not all the time! It's said that elans "come off as just a little unusual," but to who? Dragons? Elves? Liches? Eyeball beholderkin? Seeming unusual should have nothing to do with Charisma. Since Charisma is the central stat for sorcery and spell-like abilities, it represents force of personality. Why should being a weirdo make you bad at magic? If you really want to represent seeming unusual, elans shouldn't have a Charisma penalty but a penality to interaction skills like Diplomacy when dealing with certain creatures. Instead, Mr. Cordell used Charisma as a dump stat. While male illithids still have ... There are no male illithids. Mind flayers at hermaphroditic.
ck2001wendt 06-22-07, 04:21 PM	The XPH is fairly clear on this point: Elan do not or cannot reproduce in any way other than making more Elan through the Elan Transformation. At best, Elan who try to reproduce with humans would make more humans, but from the standpoint of Occam's Razor this makes less sense than saying reproduction is impossible. A good way to describe this in flavor text is to say that when the Elan Transformation makes the Elan an Aberration, its genetic material becomes so far removed that it can no longer cross-breed with humanoids, or that the process destorys its ability to transmit genetic information.
Rageheart 06-22-07, 04:32 PM	Hentai tentacled Illithids? would these be called 'Hentaithids'? :coolcthul :mymy:
Sleepwalker13666 06-22-07, 04:32 PM	In my game elans are sterile.
axenome 06-22-07, 04:57 PM	My take on it, male Elans can probably get a female human pregnant, but I doubt that the offspring could be carried to term. If the child survived, it would be deformed, or at the very least sterile. I'd say a female elan, because of her abberant physiology, wouldn't be able to become pregnant at all- regardless of the viability of the fetus, her body just wouldn't support it.
Zilred 06-22-07, 08:38 PM	I don't think the different subtype argument works well since there are exceptions. On one hand, you have the Lich and the monstrous demons, but on the other hand, you also have the Vampire and the seducing demons. Perhaps the Elan is sterile unless it wills itself to be otherwise, much like how they can will themselves to go without sustinance and sleep. And perhaps in doing so Elan don't follow the same internal processes as Humans do. Although I do agree that the child produced may or may not be Human. In a setting I'm developing, Maenads are born from such a pairing - especially when the mother is Elan. The manifest psionic life force of the Elan differs and conflicts with the simpler biological life force of Humans, and this causes nascent psychic sparks to form from the fetus's developing mind as the life forces clash and mix. The physical by-product of these sparks are crystals - since crystals conduct psionic activity - which embed themselves in the fetus's body, while the mental by-product is emotional instability as the psionic energies settle into the forming brain, writing new neural pathways in the regions of higher thought. And yes, I realize this may not be what the Maenads really were in mythology, but then again, D&D doesn't explain their origins, despite their very human appearances.
AdventChild 06-23-07, 12:10 AM	That's because actual elans are made by ritual. I think it's in the XPH (Races or Monsters section) that elans have children who are normal humans. It states that an offspring of an elan will be born human. First paragraph line 8.
Sarlax 06-23-07, 01:59 AM	It states that an offspring of an elan will be born human. First paragraph line 8. You're reading incorrectly. It says: "Thus, elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather psionically, through a mysterious psionic ritual known only to elans. Even then, their 'children' are usually already fully formed adult humans." Why is children in quotes? Because they aren't really children, only like children in the same way that a new vampire is the "child" of the vampire who made it. When it refers to "fully formed adult humans," it means candidates selected to become elans. It doesn't mean that elans impregnate each other and give birth to full-grown humanoids. And really, it says right before the line you reference that they do not reproduce biologically. There is no birth. They are just remade.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 02:08 AM	Thus, Elans do not reproduce except by explicit choice. Even then, their "children" are already fully formed adult humans. With this psionic reawakening comes increased mental agility. Fairly direct, here... anyone should be able to see that they are talking about the ritual used to make a human into an Elan. Their "children" are the people they have individually sponsored to become an Elan to the council. It is not talking about biological reproduction. As it says in the initial races entry: Living humans are selected from a pool of applicants and screened by a special Elan council. and, as I mentioned earlier: Thus, Elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather psionically,... Whether or not an Elan is functional in performing the act, is, of course, an entirely different discussion, and as best I can make out, is up to the whim of the DM whether it's possible, then up to the player whether their character even cares. Edit: Thanks, Sarlax.. I was in the middle of posting when you did. We're on the same page, obviously.
DrowBattlemind 06-23-07, 02:45 AM	*sigh* Sterile does not mean impotent, and reproduce does not mean 'mate' or 'have sex'. Elan can mate with anyone they feel attracted to. As for the book, the phrase "Elan do not reproduce biologically, but psionically" could simply mean that Elan do not breed more Elan. No Elan is ever born, but a human infant is NOT AN ELAN. It is a human infant, with no more psionic potential than the original psi (who was transformed into an Elan) originally was. Any Elan who sired a child or gave birth to a child would be giving birth to a human, not another Elan, ergo, Elan do not reproduce.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 03:00 AM	Whether the infant would be human or elan is besides the point. The point is if they could have an infant, of any race, it would be biological reproduction. I'm not going to repeat again. This discussion has become worthless if people will not use their mind to understand.
AntiDjinn 06-23-07, 03:13 AM	The other question is, why would they want to reproduce? Maybe some pregnancies (if you assume them possible between human and aberration; it seems nothing in D&D mates within species anymore) would result from recreational sex, but why deliberately have a child who will age and die almost before your eyes? Why would a female elan put herself through the inconvenience of carrying a pregnancy to term just to produce a mortal child? Can you think of many people who would have a child if they knew beforehand that that child would almost certainly die before them? Unless elan leave human children to fend for themselves, it will mean becoming emotionally attached to something with an almost ephemeral life-span. When you are a true immortal, even the lives of elves and dwarves are as mayflies to you. I think this is why elan get a -2 Cha adjustment. They withdraw from close emotional contact and hold companions at arms-length to spare themselves the pain of forming deep emotional attachments only to watch their loved ones fade. This is probably why most elan sever all ties with their former lives. Imagine watching your aged mother on her death bed and wishing you could offer her immortality as well. It is probably easier to walk away from that life and at least keep your memories of your family intact. After a few dozen centuries of dealing having people enter your life briefly, then succumb to mortality, it is likely easier to consider mortal lives as an amusement or science project than as equals or loved ones.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 04:02 AM	Well put.
Caterpillar 06-23-07, 10:07 AM	The other question is, why would they want to reproduce? Maybe some pregnancies (if you assume them possible between human and aberration; it seems nothing in D&D mates within species anymore) would result from recreational sex, but why deliberately have a child who will age and die almost before your eyes? Why would a female elan put herself through the inconvenience of carrying a pregnancy to term just to produce a mortal child? Can you think of many people who would have a child if they knew beforehand that that child would almost certainly die before them? Unless elan leave human children to fend for themselves, it will mean becoming emotionally attached to something with an almost ephemeral life-span. When you are a true immortal, even the lives of elves and dwarves are as mayflies to you. I think this is why elan get a -2 Cha adjustment. They withdraw from close emotional contact and hold companions at arms-length to spare themselves the pain of forming deep emotional attachments only to watch their loved ones fade. This is probably why most elan sever all ties with their former lives. Imagine watching your aged mother on her death bed and wishing you could offer her immortality as well. It is probably easier to walk away from that life and at least keep your memories of your family intact. After a few dozen centuries of dealing having people enter your life briefly, then succumb to mortality, it is likely easier to consider mortal lives as an amusement or science project than as equals or loved ones. I disagree, elves have children with humans all the time and will surely outlive both their child and their lover. Elans reproductive organs may or may not be affected, we know that elans aren't born at all, but we don't know what would happen with an elan + elan or elan+human. It's fun to speculate about and is good grounds for some interesting story plot IMHO. Another thing, the elan leaders may not want other elans to have any kids. Elan leaders would probably think themselves much greater than the applicant and decide that future elans won't be able to handle having and outliving their children constantly (even though the child of an elan could later in life petition to become an elan), they may know an elan child would be deformed to some extent, or the whole ritual would change the reproductive organs in such a way that they become sterile. Also, elans may feel 'parent hood' from just finding a petitioner to bring into the ritual. Bottom line is we don't know anything about the ritual process.
Sarlax 06-23-07, 10:46 AM	I think this is why elan get a -2 Cha adjustment. They withdraw ... That may very well be the design reason, but it's still a bad one.
Fafnir 06-23-07, 11:02 AM	Elans reproductive organs may or may not be affected, we know that elans aren't born at all, but we don't know what would happen with an elan + elan or elan+human. It's fun to speculate about and is good grounds for some interesting story plot IMHO. You get a Half-Elan. Then you can Gestalt as Psion on both sides and have four times more psionics in your body than any Elan can have. :P
Sarlax 06-23-07, 11:33 AM	... but we don't know what would happen with an elan + elan or elan+human. Yes we do: E+E = 0 because elans don't reproduce biologically. E+H = 0 because elans don't reproduce biologically. Regardless of the race of any hypothetical child, any biological child of an elan would be its biological offspring. Since they don't reproduce biologically, they can't have a child of any race.
Fafnir 06-23-07, 11:42 AM	Yes we do: E+E = 0 because elans don't reproduce biologically. E+H = 0 because elans don't reproduce biologically. Regardless of the race of any hypothetical child, any biological child of an elan would be its biological offspring. Since they don't reproduce biologically, they can't have a child of any race. Though I agree with you, one could argue that the text refers to Elans as the race, rather than Elans as individual people.
Caterpillar 06-23-07, 12:44 PM	... one could argue that the text refers to Elans as the race, rather than Elans as individual people. Thats how I interpret it.
BloodSpill 06-24-07, 12:38 AM	Yes we do: E+E = 0 because elans don't reproduce biologically. E+H = 0 because elans don't reproduce biologically. Regardless of the race of any hypothetical child, any biological child of an elan would be its biological offspring. Since they don't reproduce biologically, they can't have a child of any race. That is English you're reading there. My guess as to the -2 Cha penalty? Take the average human's force of will and stretch it out over a few millenia, for an average of 8 Charisma instead of 10. :)
Sleepwalker13666 06-24-07, 02:27 AM	would these be called 'Hentaithids'? :coolcthul :mymy: Congratulations,.... it's a... squid.
DrowBattlemind 06-24-07, 03:13 AM	Whether the infant would be human or elan is besides the point. The point is if they could have an infant, of any race, it would be biological reproduction. I'm not going to repeat again. This discussion has become worthless if people will not use their mind to understand. Then if you are correct, they should have stated that ELAN ARE STERILE. However, they did NOT say that, the phrasing they are using implies that they cannot reproduce MORE ELAN that way. :banghead: They even go so far as to repeat that to make MORE ELAN, it requires the ascension ritual. STILL no mention of sterility. I agree, this discussion IS useless if you refuse to listen or use your mind.
Chie 06-24-07, 03:39 AM	Whether the infant would be human or elan is besides the point. The point is if they could have an infant, of any race, it would be biological reproduction. I'm not going to repeat again. This discussion has become worthless if people will not use their mind to understand. The statement that "Elan do not reproduce biologically" is,at best unclear in tis meaning.It could be interpreted to mean that the Elan cannot have biological children at all,or it could simply mean that only do not produce more Elan in this manner. As for myself,I'd say that they can have children if they wanted to,but the child would be human.Or you could create an entirely new race for what the children are. Elan still have the functions of their old human bodies,they just have control over their bodies because of their enhanced psychic powers.So why shouldn't the reproductive organs work too.But since the transformation to Elan is almost purely psionic it wouldn't transfer genetically.Hence why they have to be created through a special process.
ninja1 07-02-07, 01:41 PM	Thanks everyone for your input! I just got back from a vacation to San Diego, so I'm just now getting caught up with this thread. I should have started with a much stronger disclaimer about understanding that mating will not reproduce an Elan offspring. I do agree that there are different angles to approach the concept of producing human offspring, yay or nay. Utlimately, in any game such a clarification is the DM's discretion. My intent for this is for a game I am in where we are playing evil Elans (my guy is a Thrallherd)... we are considering trying our hands at building a new society. For our purposes, whether we take a more active roll in contributing to the gene pool or stand back and guide things is not a major issue. Since there is no huge advantage in our situation, I would see no problem in allowing it... but on the other hand, if it is not allowed, I wouldn't be upset either.
axenome 07-03-07, 01:20 AM	Hmmm actually I'm dealing with just such a situation in one of my campaigns right now. As I can be forgetful, I forgot the whole can't reproduce biologically thing, and the party elan was in the tool shed to the rest of the party as to being an elan. Meanwhile, as part of the storyline, the Elan's girl is now pregnant. Now that his character's secret is out to the rest of the party, one of them pipes up to me, "Elans can't reproduce." I briefly considered covering my ass by putting in a plot hook that she cheated on him, but it wouldn't really add anything to the story, would probably derail the party from the plot as the elan went and looked for the real father with murder on his mind (A literal statement when referring to a Psion) so I decided to change the rule listed in the book, meaning a whole generation of Errata-bashing RAW lawyers will come to my cemetary and **** on my grave after I'm dead. It's really simple. When in doubt, ask the DM. On a side note, I'm constructing a later plot line for the child, being the natural offspring of an entity that survives entirely on psionic power, become a Half-Elan, a psionic being who is more powerful than the sum of its parents, but has mental stability issues as a result, along with other stuff. ________________________Half-Elan The humanoid you see before you wavers slightly while walking, looking slightly disoriented. He comes closer, and your mind feels cloudy, as though your are trying to think through muddy water. Sample Half Elan CR 5Male Half-Elan Telepath 3 CN Medium Aberration(Augmented humanoid) Init +1 Senses Listen + Spot + Languages Common, Elven, Draconic, Sylvan _______________________________ AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18 (+1 Dex, +4 Inertial Armor, +4 Force Screen) hp 14 (3 HD); Fort +2, Refl +2, Will +1(+3 vs Mind Affecting) _______________________________ Speed 30 ft. (6 squares) Melee Masterwork Staff +2 (1d6/1d6) Space 5 ft. Reach5 ft. Base Atk +1; Grp +1 Power Points/Day 16; Powers Known (ML 3rd):2nd-Ego Whip(DC 15), Cloud Mind(DC 15) 1st- Mind Thrust, Psionic Charm Person, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, Disable _______________________________ Abilities Str 10 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 17 Wis 6 Cha 16 SQ Hardened Mind, Mental Static, Psionic Metabolism, Unstable Feats _______________________________ Hardened Mind (Ex) A Half-Elan's mind is reinforced from conception by a constant infusion of psionic energy, making them more resilient against mental intrusion. Half-Elans gain a +2 bonus on any will save against a Mind-Affecting effect. Mental Static (Su) The uncontrolled instability of a Half-Elan's mental energies causes a field of mental static that impedes the actions of those around them. All creatures within 15 ft. (Excluding himself) are treated as though their mental attributes are reduced by 3 for the purposes of what spells, powers, and feats they may access. This does not affect spells in memory nor are bonus power points lost. Thus, if a Fighter with 15 Int, 13 Wis, and 10 Cha, with the feat Combat Expertise, was in the area of effect, he would be unable to use Combat Expertise so long as his effective Int score was still under 13. If he was an Int based spell caster, he would not be able to cast spells higher than level 2, although he would not lose them from memory. His ability modifier to Int, Wis, or Cha based Skills and checks, and his Save DC's for any Int based spells he might have from multi classing would be unaffected. Psionic Metabolism (Su) A Half-Elan can spend 1 PP to forgo the necessity of Eating or Drinking for 24 hours. Likewise, a Half-Elan can expend power points to heal himself of damage at a rate of 1 hp per pp. Either use of this ability is a swift action. Unstable (Ex) Any Half-Elan with a Wisdom Penalty of -1 or lower is unstable. He is prone to violent mood swings at any time he is under stress. When entering any combat situation, he must make a will save DC 15 + 2 per previous stressful encounter within the past 24 hours. Failure means that each nearby individual must roll a diplomacy check as though attempting to influence his attitude with a hurried check(-10). He responds to each individual according to his new attitude towards them (Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, Helpful). If One or more individuals receive a Hostile result from this check, the Half-Elan attacks the individual with the lowest result for 1d4 rounds or until affected by a Calm Emotions effect. In the case of a tie, he attacks the nearest of them, or a randomly chosen individual if they are also equidistant. During this period of almost uncontrollable violence, he has a 10% chance each round to be treated as though staggered. One minute after the stress has ceased, his attitude towards each individual in the incident shifts 1 step back towards its original state. Attributes +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Wis: Half Elans have powerful intellects and personalities, but their mental stability and judgement are shaky. The Half Elan above had the following statistics before racial adjustments: Str 10 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 8 Cha 14
Nite_shade 07-03-07, 01:48 AM	I really like the flavor you put into the Half-Elan, but for a very minor expenditure of 2 point-buy points you can negate all of its drawbacks except -2 Cha and gain some very nice benefits.
MnemonicSV 07-03-07, 04:11 AM	I would imagine that part of the "culling" process involves finding those applicants who have no interest in having children in the first place. All in all I would say they cannot reproduce at all (personal opinion) as their biology has strayed so far as to no longer even be considered a humanoid. I'm not saying that no longer being humanoid means you can't reproduce, not by a long shot... but I do feel that making the jump to aberration is a pretty extreme alteration (beyond simply an "alien mindset"). I have to assume that the internal biology gets at least a little rearranged. Putting all that aside though, this thread brings up a few other ritual questions: - Would not a hopeful elan intentionally have a child before undergoing the ritual, before the chance is gone forever? Judgement call I suppose. - More curiously, what would happen to an (unknowing) expectant mother who undergoes the ritual? Would the child be born human? Elan? Phrenic? Not at all? Other? - Could a child be transformed into an elan (perhaps by evil/experimenting elan councils)? Would that child still grow up, or stay physically undeveloped (a la Interview With the Vampire)? * - Is there a way to reverse the ritual? Can a regretful elan petition the elder elans to return to humanity (maybe because they met Mr./Mrs. Right after the transformation, or they now wish they had a child)? - What about a female human that is already venerable (thus, well past the ability to carry a child)? Will she become young and fertile again, or be a venerable elan? * Yes, I am aware that WOTC does not generally look favourably upon stats/modifiers/templates for creatures or races in their infancy (ie: no children combatants); This is a purely theoretical question for potential plot-hook purposes. :D
Caterpillar 07-03-07, 08:44 AM	Putting all that aside though, this thread brings up a few other ritual questions: - Would not a hopeful elan intentionally have a child before undergoing the ritual, before the chance is gone forever? Judgement call I suppose. I doubt it, I would say it's considerable but then the petitioner now has to find a suitable mother. I hope they wouldn't think of some woman as their new childs 'host' lol!! [/quote]- More curiously, what would happen to an (unknowing) expectant mother who undergoes the ritual? Would the child be born human? Elan? Phrenic? Not at all? Other?[/quote] I say that the counsel would know and wait until after birth and the mother has recooperated. - Could a child be transformed into an elan (perhaps by evil/experimenting elan councils)? Would that child still grow up, or stay physically undeveloped (a la Interview With the Vampire)? * If I remember correctly after the process they are fully formed adults at the 'new starting age' of 200. If that doesn't work then it would be a cruel thing to do to a kid.. but what an awesome spy that would make. - Is there a way to reverse the ritual? Can a regretful elan petition the elder elans to return to humanity (maybe because they met Mr./Mrs. Right after the transformation, or they now wish they had a child)? I think no, it's not reversable. I would say that if Elans made enemies with Elans it would be an awesome revenge/attack method to de-evolve Elans back into humans... ouch - What about a female human that is already venerable (thus, well past the ability to carry a child)? Will she become young and fertile again, or be a venerable elan? I would think that you would have to be somewhat on the youthful side to go through the process. I don't believe it reverses any aging.
AntiDjinn 07-03-07, 12:31 PM	I would imagine that part of the "culling" process involves finding those applicants who have no interest in having children in the first place. All in all I would say they cannot reproduce at all (personal opinion) as their biology has strayed so far as to no longer even be considered a humanoid. I'm not saying that no longer being humanoid means you can't reproduce, not by a long shot... but I do feel that making the jump to aberration is a pretty extreme alteration (beyond simply an "alien mindset"). I have to assume that the internal biology gets at least a little rearranged. Their mental engrams and physical biology are different enough that spells and effects that can only target humanoids do not affect them. They are so alien that one can not even carry the Mind Seed of a human, so why should be able to carry his child? Still, in the anything goes and anything mates with anything world of D&D someone can slap the half-X on anything. Proponents of reproductive elan could reasonably argue that biology has absolutely zip to do with reproduction in D&D. There are half fire elementals (ouch! must have involved some asbestos lingerie) and such running around. That I know of there are no half oozes, but for having mentioned it, I am sure there is at least one or two on the boards who will feel I am dumping on their pet character concept. At some point you have to ask why even bother with species and creature type if is means nothing more that what spells and powers can target it. As far as the fact that they used to be human, so did zombies. It just becomes a matter of what was moved to the new body and how it was plugged in. Cyborg (DC comics Teen Titans) used to be human. Reproductive? Never answered, he has had romantic interests but the specifics have never been revealed. The Brain (also DC, recurring enemy of the Doom Patrol and Titans) is also a converted human. Can it produce human offspring, or even give birth to more brains in tanks? It has a thing going with Malah, but so far no half grey matter half apes are running around (as they certainly would by now if the characters existed in D&D).
ninja1 07-03-07, 01:15 PM	True, but there are other aspects that are similar such as digestion. Granted, they can use power points to create the sustenance they need, but they can eat steak and potatoes like living humans, unlike zombies. Now that you mention the "Half"-type creatures, I vaguely remember flavor text (probably in the monster manual) that states that the creatures are capable of cross-mating due to the highly magical nature of the creature? (I'm lost right now as the SRD cuts out the flavor text...)
Changling_Bob 07-04-07, 09:55 AM	- More curiously, what would happen to an (unknowing) expectant mother who undergoes the ritual? Would the child be born human? Elan? Phrenic? Not at all? Other? I'd rule like Alia from Dune, ie, fully concious and aware at birth.
Fafnir 07-04-07, 10:31 AM	I'd rule like Alia from Dune, ie, fully concious and aware at birth. Phrenic all the way. If you think about it, it explains a lot about the template.
Akusokuzon 07-04-07, 11:34 AM	Elans are Aberrations... To accept Elans mating in a campaign means my mind would have to, if only for a split second, venture to the thought of if Beholders can mate. Oh please, no, not again, not the tentacles... For that matter, can a creature that probably mates using some form of magic actually procreate when it produces a 60ft. cone of anti-magic? Anyway, if Elans were to mate, the children would be whatever would be begotten (I never get to use that verb) from the two parent's original races. A human Elan and an elf Elan would have a Half-Elf baby with no special abilities - but they would probably be looked at with much anticipation to follow in their parent's footsteps (This is getting more and more Jedi with each passing moment).
ninja1 07-04-07, 12:53 PM	Other aberations can mate. I think Lords of Madness has the Aberration Blood feat that indicates that one of your ancestors was an aberration. Also, I think there's a half-illithid template somewhere...? Only humans can become Elans though... Also, when creatures like Dragons mate, I don't think they carry out the physical act in their natural form... they would use something like thier alternate form ability or polymorph spell to assume the form of the same race they are doing the deed with... I imagine a beholder could do the same.
kyeudo 07-04-07, 06:02 PM	Lords of Madness covers Beholder reproduction. Thankfully it doen't involve some freakish french kissing. They are thankfully asexual, each one getting pregnant once in their lives, then eating whichever children don't look enough like the parent. Anyway, back on topic, Elans reproductive capabilities should be answered on a campaign by campaign basis. My take is that they possess the same equipment they had as humans, but are sterile.
pawsplay 07-10-07, 03:33 PM	On-topic, where is it written that illithids can't have sex? For that matter, where is it written than illithids can't use magic or psionics to create bizarre, fertile fusions of themselves and other creatures? Mind flayers are weeeeeird, after all. Illithid Heritage is still a waste of feats, but I don't find it that implausible. Well, going by Lords of Madness it's my impression that humans with Iillithid Heritage feats are actually the ancestors of the mind flayer race, not their descendents.
Nite_shade 07-10-07, 04:14 PM	But I thought Illithids had a massive interstellar empire and only ended up actually on planets and not their super-massive star-cities (like Penumbra) because of some cataclysm in the future.
Zarreth_Nessad 07-10-07, 04:14 PM	IMO The Illithid's have messed with time and as a result there are both the humans with the feats who are their ancestors, and then there are those who are their descendents, too. The blood goes both ways, now, in effect also making them their own ancestors. On another note with that, there is also the PrC that turns a psionic character into an Illithid... would this not be the initial heritage of the Illithid race? These PrC people's offspring? Just some thoughts.