Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WebJiCi 01-13-08, 04:09 PM	Cheesy ? Totally... but is it possible ? Could a psion have 2 schism powers active at the same time ?
Lycanthromancer 01-13-08, 04:33 PM	No. Unless the ability specifically notes otherwise or the effect has an Instantaneous duration, you cannot have an ability stack with itself. Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to find a link at the moment. :P
Jaid 01-13-08, 06:13 PM	Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to find a link at the moment. :P here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)
CrimsonDeath 01-13-08, 06:14 PM	No. Unless the ability specifically notes otherwise or the effect has an Instantaneous duration, you cannot have an ability stack with itself. Not exactly. You can have two instances of the Schism power active at once. However, their effects will overlap, so you'll still only get one extra Standard action each round. The only time it would help you would be if one got dispelled, and the other didn't (or if the duration on one ran out, and the other didn't).
InkBlot 01-13-08, 06:25 PM	Page 57 of the Expanded Psionic Handbook has the stacking rules. To sum them up: multiple schisms don't stack.
Scion of Coldshard 01-13-08, 07:57 PM	An interesting question. Schism does not give you an extra standard action each round, it creates another mind with autonomy which only gets a standard action each round. Saying that you cannot have two of them ongoing concurrently sounds kindof like saying that you are not able to have two astral constructs concurrently.
CrimsonDeath 01-14-08, 03:16 AM	An interesting question. Schism does not give you an extra standard action each round, it creates another mind with autonomy which only gets a standard action each round. Saying that you cannot have two of them ongoing concurrently sounds kindof like saying that you are not able to have two astral constructs concurrently. Well, setting aside Complete Psionic for the moment, it's actually more like saying that you can cast Girallon Arms repeatedly and get more and more sets of arms each time. Schism doesn't create an object or creature; it alters the way a creature functions, so it follows the rules for stacking similar effects on a creature.
Bacris 01-14-08, 11:22 AM	Schism doesn't create an object or creature; it alters the way a creature functions, so it follows the rules for stacking similar effects on a creature. Correct. It's an on-going effect on your mind - it splits your mind into two distinct pieces. Multiple same effects overlap, they don't stack. Specific rule source: Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired). Same Effect with Differing Results: The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts.
AntiDjinn 01-14-08, 11:40 AM	There has been considerable debate as to how Schism functions, but regardless, the rules for overlapping effects still apply because Schism doesn't say otherwise. You can manifest multiple Schisms, but you only gain the benefit of one. You can manifest another Schism before your first ends to extend the duration of the effect (and as I read it, the effect simply continues even thought it is a separate manifestation; if your second mind is concentrating on a power it can continue to do so even as you transition from one Schism to the next). Other than re-upping the duration, the only advantage multiple Schisms will get you is they each have to be dispelled separately. Dispel Psionics would treat the situation as separate active powers. Suppress Schism would both check for dispelling as each is a telepathic effect, and force a Will save to end all instances of Schism (the power says all such effects end). I am not sure what happens if you are targeted with a Charm or Compulsion and have multiple instances of Schism active. If your primary mind fails then Schism ends (the secondary save merely determines whether or not you are affected). But would a second instance of the power then re-split your mind or does this special end condition written into the text trump all instances of the power?
Lycanthromancer 01-14-08, 12:08 PM	What if your secondary mind manifests schism?
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 12:15 PM	The stacking rules do not seem to really apply here. The power creates a seperate mind that has access to some of your abilities. Manifesting it more than once simply makes even more seperate minds with access to your abilities. But then I also see no problem with someone casting protection from energy multiple times and choosing different energy types each time to gain simultaneous protection from each. The two abilities are simply doing different things that have no relation to one another. In the case of schism it actually does make a seperate mental entity. Hence, I'd be hard pressed to say someone cannot have multiples of them at once much like I would be hard pressed to only allow a character one astral construct at a time.
AntiDjinn 01-14-08, 12:52 PM	I read the power as creating a separate autonomous character, but it does so as a sub-division of your mind. It is a definite effect on you and as such should be subject to normal stacking rules. Note that it says "like two characters in one body" not "two or more" or "like an additional character in the same body." Either of those wordings would imply that it can be stacked. But since it specifies exactly two characters in one body, that is what you get; no matter how many times you try to stack it, the end result is exactly two characters in one body. Multiple functional Schisms would probably require a higher level Greater Schism or Psychic Legion power, not stacked manifestation, Twin Power, or augmentation.
AntiDjinn 01-14-08, 01:14 PM	What if your secondary mind manifests schism? You get another instance of Schism, but with a much lower manifester level. This means it will be easier to dispel and have a shorter duration. But unless your secondary mind can come up with an extra body of its own then it won't accomplish much else. It still can't break the stated ratio of 2 characters:1 body.
Lycanthromancer 01-14-08, 01:34 PM	Ah. So what about fission? :P
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 01:42 PM	I read the power as creating a separate autonomous character, but it does so as a sub-division of your mind. It creates an autonomous character, what bits it used dont really seem to be relevant.. much like the astral construct is made up of ether but that doesnt mean only one astral construct can be in existance at once. The character does not get the extra action, the new autonomous guy does with certain limitations. The power doesnt say that only a certain number of extra minds may be made so I am not sure why such a limit should be assumed.
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 01:45 PM	So what about fission? Fission is actually interesting in that it says you cannot have more than one duplicate. Such a wording is missing from the schism power.
Lycanthromancer 01-14-08, 01:52 PM	I was thinking schism + fission + schism'd fission; would the schism inhabit your second body?
CrimsonDeath 01-14-08, 04:12 PM	The power doesnt say that only a certain number of extra minds may be made so I am not sure why such a limit should be assumed. Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]Level: Telepath 4 Display: Auditory and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level (D) Power Points: 7 Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions. Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Your second mind doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when manifesting a power, because doing so doesn’t distract your primary mind. Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested. Both your minds communicate with each other telepathically. If you are subject to a compulsion or charm effect while you are of two minds, make a second saving throw if you fail the first. If you fail both, then the schism ends and you are affected normally by the power. If you fail just one, the schism ends immediately, but you are not subject to the compulsion or charm. Your second mind does not gain any advantages if you are subject to a haste effect, although you gain the overall standard benefits. Looks like it says you wind up with exactly two minds after manifesting Schism. Doesn't seem to make any provisions for a third, fourth, fifth, etc. mind.
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 04:15 PM	Looks like it says you wind up with exactly two minds after manifesting Schism. Yes, so? When you manifest astral construct you only get one of those as well, but that doesnt mean you are limited to only one (leaving out the stupid complete psionic of course).
awaken_D_M_golem 01-14-08, 05:17 PM	hmm ... the Second mind gets the following restriction : Your second mind does not gain any advantages if you are subject to a haste effect, although you gain the overall standard benefits. No mention of schism being a haste effect. So, if the "second" mind takes as it's standard action, manifesting a power, does it "gain the overall standard benefits" ??? Is the target of the second mind's schism : you-the second mind ; or you-the original manifester ??? I'd say it's the second mind itself. Now throw in Practised Manifester. Instead of ML's of 1, 7, 13, and 19 you'd gets 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19. Kinda like the Blastificer chiselling through it's pocket book. Spend 7 pp per round * 8 rounds = 56 pp, to get 4 rounds (5-1) of 96 pp output (19+17+15+13+11+9+7+5). Gee, you can zero your daily pp before you can get this whole thing off. A really bad nova. Let's throw in Affinity Field and Bestow Power - if you can target yourself. ML 5 manifests Bestow Power, ML 17 manifests Affinity Field, although a higher ML should do both earlier. 3 pp gives 2 pp per mind which only keeps the thing going for a bit. I ain't calculating it, cause it's now just an iffy nova. Lyca's sig is better. Fun anyway.
CrimsonDeath 01-14-08, 05:31 PM	Yes, so? When you manifest astral construct you only get one of those as well, but that doesnt mean you are limited to only one (leaving out the stupid complete psionic of course). Because Astral Construct does not affect a creature. It creates a thing. As for your example regarding Resist Energy (or Specified Energy Adaptation), you can put as many instances of the spell/power on the same person as you like (and resources allow), and they will all operate concurrently. If you choose different energy types, the subject gains resistance to each energy type independently. If you choose the same energy type, the energy resistance overlaps.
kalstrand 01-14-08, 05:38 PM	Schism is a Personal range power so it can only be manifest on yourself. Manifesting it twice on yourself will cause it to overlap as per the stacking rules.
AwsomeSauce 01-14-08, 07:51 PM	The simple answer: Of course its possible. Play a Synad.
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 08:10 PM	Because Astral Construct does not affect a creature. It creates a thing. Why do you feel that this distinction is important here?
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 08:12 PM	Manifesting it twice on yourself will cause it to overlap as per the stacking rules. This does not appear to be the case as the manifestation creates a seperate mental entity. Manifesting the power more than once would simply create more seperate mental entities.
CrimsonDeath 01-14-08, 08:54 PM	Why do you feel that this distinction is important here? Because the stacking rules come into play when two effects affect the same area or creature. The Astral Construct power itself never affects a creature or area; it simply creates a creature, so the effect stacking rules don't apply. Schism, on the other hand, does affect a creature, which is why the stacking rules are used, and the stacking rules indicate that two identical effects operating on the same creature overlap.
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 09:24 PM	Because the stacking rules come into play when two effects affect the same area or creature. In this case the effects can act independently and do completely different things, much like having two energy types on a person from protection from energy can both work at the same time since they can act independently. The effect is much like the astral construct power in that it makes a seperate entity that can perform more actions, typically on your behalf.
CrimsonDeath 01-14-08, 10:21 PM	In this case the effects can act independently and do completely different things, much like having two energy types on a person from protection from energy can both work at the same time since they can act independently. No, Schism does exactly one thing: It grants you a standard action. Schism doesn't decide what to do with that action; you do. And unlike Resist Energy, you don't decide what to do with those actions when you manifest the power; you decide on a round-by-round basis.
Scion of Coldshard 01-14-08, 10:44 PM	No, Schism does exactly one thing: It grants you a standard action. That is definately, most certainly, not what schism does. Schism makes an autonomous mind within your body with which you can communicate. Generally it is assumed it will do what the manifester wants because, well, it basically is the manifester. But the manifester does not gain the standard action directly anymore than he gains an extra standard action from having an astral construct on the field.
CrimsonDeath 01-15-08, 03:58 AM	That is definately, most certainly, not what schism does. Schism makes an autonomous mind within your body with which you can communicate. Generally it is assumed it will do what the manifester wants because, well, it basically is the manifester. But the manifester does not gain the standard action directly anymore than he gains an extra standard action from having an astral construct on the field. The Schism mind uses your powers known. The Astral Construct does not. The Schism mind uses your PP. The Astral Construct does not. The Schism mind is stuck inside your body. The Astral Construct is not. There's really no reason to compare Schism and Astral Construct. At all.
Racinante 01-15-08, 11:44 AM	... much like having two energy types on a person from protection from energy can both work at the same time since they can act independently. Protection from energy overlaps. The latest trumps any previous manifestation, even if both are attuned to different types of energy. If the latest is dispelled, then the protection from the first manifestation reasserts itself unless the duration has expired.
Racinante 01-15-08, 11:59 AM	That is definately, most certainly, not what schism does. I disagree. Most of the write-up for Schism is flavor text, including the simile. There is no rules definition of what a mind is or can do. The net effect of the power is one additional standard action. This standard action is further restricted or enhanced by the following: begins on your next turn must be a mental action may manifest any power you know at 6 levels lower than you are uses your power point reserve does not provoke AOOs grants an additional save vs compulsion and charms failing the first ends the schism failing both ends the schism and causes you to be affected as normal haste does not affect this additional standard action information gained through either your normal actions or the extra standard action is shared, if desired
AntiDjinn 01-15-08, 12:06 PM	Protection from energy overlaps. The latest trumps any previous manifestation, even if both are attuned to different types of energy. If the latest is dispelled, then the protection from the first manifestation reasserts itself unless the duration has expired. This is also why Animal Affinity costs +5 points to affect an additional stat. Ever wonder who pays the +5 points when it only costs 3 points to manifest the power again to affect an additional stat? Why not just spend 6 points for Animal Affinity + Linked Power: Animal Affinity? Because the effects of multiple manifestations don't stack, even if you choose to affect a different stat. The +5 points expands the scope of the power so a single manifestation does more rather than stacking multiple manifestations.
AntiDjinn 01-15-08, 12:20 PM	I disagree. Most of the write-up for Schism is flavor text, including the simile. There is no rules definition of what a mind is or can do. I will disagree on this. There is no flavor text in Schism: Flavor text is italicized and set at the beginning of the descriptive section as per Spell Compendium and Complete Psionics. Schism says: "like two characters in one body" and "character" definitely has a game definition. Which is why I have the two minds keep track of focus separately; one can't expend on the other's behalf any more than any other two characters could. I also don't allow one mind to manifest and the other to maintain concentration: They each need to manage their own power effects, which is why they have separate actions and manifester levels. This, by the way, prevents many of the abuses raised by concerned DM's in the myths thread. I do see the separate mind as functioning like a separate and completely autonomous character in the same body, but I still don't allow multiples because Schism is a personal power effect that does not say it can be stacked. Also because the power (again, reading as no flavor text: It is all rules) establishes a ratio of 2 characters:1 body. No matter how many manifestations are overlapped the outcome can only be exactly as stated: 2 characters in 1 body. Manifest it 10 times and you get: 2 characters in 1 body, because that is what the power says it grants.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 01:31 PM	The Schism mind uses your powers known. The Astral Construct does not. The Schism mind uses your PP. The Astral Construct does not. The Schism mind is stuck inside your body. The Astral Construct is not. There's really no reason to compare Schism and Astral Construct. At all. So, your point seems to be that because there are differences then I cannot compare the similarities when I am talking about the similarities? If that is actually your point then I am confused.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 01:32 PM	Protection from energy overlaps. If you name the same energy type then I agree, if you name a different energy type then I disagree.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 01:47 PM	I disagree. Most of the write-up for Schism is flavor text, including the simile. There is no rules definition of what a mind is or can do. The rules for what it can and cannot do are in the power description. Flavor text is mutable without game mechanic changes. Making the standard action actually apply to the character directly rather than through a proxy changes the power in a number of ways, some of which make it much, much more powerful than what the power actually says. Since changing that description changes the mechanical aspects of the power greatly I would have to say that it is not flavor text.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 01:50 PM	This is also why Animal Affinity costs +5 points to affect an additional stat. Ever wonder who pays the +5 points when it only costs 3 points to manifest the power again to affect an additional stat? Someone who wants to save on time? Each extra manifestation would take an extra standard action, which a character might not have 'right now' since this is basically a single battle duration effect, more or less. Someone who is using overchannel to make it last longer? Popping it all at once costs more pp but saves a whole lot of damage. If they are using talented then it saves on potentially an even larger amount of time than before as well. It has a built in time saving mechanic for a short duration power.
InkBlot 01-15-08, 02:00 PM	Yeah, what Scion said. The augment on animal affinity is the equivilant of all those powers that augment to become a swift action, or an immediate action. It's just saving your actions. Actions are an extremely important character resource (that's why temporal acceleration is so high level, why time hop is potent against creatures, and why haste was nerfed in 3.5).
AntiDjinn 01-15-08, 02:23 PM	It does save time and actions, but it also lets you affect more stats with the same power. This was covered in one of the myth threads when DMs spazed out about how casters need six separate spells to do what manifesters can do with one power. Animal Affinity is self-only, but it is also a single power with a finite duration effect. The six stat boosting spells can all be cast sequentially on the same target and will each have their full effect because they are separate spells. Animal Affinity only boosts multiple stats if it is augmented to do so; otherwise, it is a single power an does not stack with itself.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 03:16 PM	If that is so then it would appear that part of the myth thread is incorrect then. Even with it being able to be placed on the same creature multiple times and if we also let it be manifested onto other creatures and not be specialist only the power would still suck. It being personal only and specialist only are already more than big enough hits without also trying to tell people it cannot give multiple boosts until high levels.
AntiDjinn 01-15-08, 03:25 PM	It is a personal power; it targets You not your stat. If the affected statistic were listed as the target then each successive use would be directed to a different target. It has a finite duration. It does not state an exception to the stacking rule (or rather, it does state an exception and assigns it a cost). The only advantage AA offers over the 6 spells is that it only takes 1 power known slot.
CrimsonDeath 01-15-08, 03:26 PM	So, your point seems to be that because there are differences then I cannot compare the similarities when I am talking about the similarities? If that is actually your point then I am confused. I'm saying that the differences between them are such that they render any similarities incomparable.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 03:29 PM	I'm saying that the differences between them are such that they render any similarities incomparable. Obviously, I disagree. The parts I am comparing are that they create a seperate mental entity who gets actions. This is very important since the character who manifested the power does not get those actions directly. It also shows that it is not a normal sort of buff where the character gains something directly, instead they create something else and gain effectively incidental benefits. The ways I am comparing the two demonstrate the points I am putting forward, they do not say that the powers are identical in all ways.
CrimsonDeath 01-15-08, 04:29 PM	Obviously, I disagree. The parts I am comparing are that they create a seperate mental entity who gets actions. This is very important since the character who manifested the power does not get those actions directly. It also shows that it is not a normal sort of buff where the character gains something directly, instead they create something else and gain effectively incidental benefits. The ways I am comparing the two demonstrate the points I am putting forward, they do not say that the powers are identical in all ways. Well, you are incorrect about at least one thing. An Astral Construct (the creature) has no Intelligence score, so it's not a "mental entity". Anyway, what happens when the Schism mind manifests a Personal power? Whom does it target, the manifester of Schism, or the Schism mind itself?
Racinante 01-15-08, 04:35 PM	The rules for what it can and cannot do are in the power description. Flavor text is mutable without game mechanic changes. Making the standard action actually apply to the character directly rather than through a proxy changes the power in a number of ways, some of which make it much, much more powerful than what the power actually says. Since changing that description changes the mechanical aspects of the power greatly I would have to say that it is not flavor text. How does this make the power much more powerful, given the restrictions listed above?
Racinante 01-15-08, 04:35 PM	Well, you are incorrect about at least one thing. An Astral Construct (the creature) has no Intelligence score, so it's not a "mental entity". Anyway, what happens when the Schism mind manifests a Personal power? Whom does it target, the manifester of Schism, or the Schism mind itself? Especially if the power is mind blank?
Racinante 01-15-08, 04:42 PM	I will disagree on this. There is no flavor text in Schism: Flavor text is italicized and set at the beginning of the descriptive section as per Spell Compendium and Complete Psionics. The distinction and separation of flavor text and rules text did not exist at the time the XPH was published. Schism says: "like two characters in one body" and "character" definitely has a game definition. So basically then, any power or spell that has a phrase like the following, for example: The character grows an additional head, like an ettin means that the character becomes an ettin, since ettin is a defined game term? I think not. Which is why I have the two minds keep track of focus separately; one can't expend on the other's behalf any more than any other two characters could. I also don't allow one mind to manifest and the other to maintain concentration: They each need to manage their own power effects, which is why they have separate actions and manifester levels. This, by the way, prevents many of the abuses raised by concerned DM's in the myths thread. However, there is nothing in the power's description that specifies that an additional focus is granted. So therefore a house rule is needed to address issues that just having a second mental standard action would not encounter. One abuse that it magnifies is quicken power. With an additional mental standard action, the character is limited to 3 powers per round, but with two minds, that total increases to 4. In addition, with two minds, practiced manifester becomes more complicated, since nothing in the power indicates that the second mind has access to the main character's feats and skills. I do see the separate mind as functioning like a separate and completely autonomous character in the same body, but I still don't allow multiples because Schism is a personal power effect that does not say it can be stacked. Also because the power (again, reading as no flavor text: It is all rules) establishes a ratio of 2 characters:1 body. No matter how many manifestations are overlapped the outcome can only be exactly as stated: 2 characters in 1 body. Manifest it 10 times and you get: 2 characters in 1 body, because that is what the power says it grants. Based on your interpretation (or mine for that matter), I can agree that it would not stack.
Scion of Coldshard 01-15-08, 09:01 PM	It is a personal power; it targets You not your stat. So? It does not state an exception to the stacking rule Which stacking rule are you referencing here? Well, you are incorrect about at least one thing. An Astral Construct (the creature) has no Intelligence score, so it's not a "mental entity". They have pretty high wis and cha for not being a mental entity. They may not be very 'intelligent' mental entities, but they have mental stats that are not a -. Anyway, what happens when the Schism mind manifests a Personal power? Whom does it target, the manifester of Schism, or the Schism mind itself? The schismed mind is a seperate, autonomous entity. If you are in telepathic contact with the guy next to you can you manifest personal only powers on him? How does this make the power much more powerful, given the restrictions listed above? How does being able to use the extra standard action directly make it much more powerful than basically giving someone else an extra standard action? Because then you have an extra action to use yourself! You could manifest a power and then have your other mind maintain concentration on it. Using the start/stop a full-round action option you could spend your two standard actions to manifest a 1 round manifesting time power in a single turn (which manifester level do you use? who knows?). Those right there are some very, very big mechanical changes. More than enough to declare the wording in question to not be flavor text.
CrimsonDeath 01-15-08, 10:25 PM	Which stacking rule are you referencing here? Probably these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#stackingEffect s). The ones you're ignoring. They have pretty high wis and cha for not being a mental entity. They may not be very 'intelligent' mental entities, but they have mental stats that are not a -. The fact that it has a Wisdom and Charisma just means it's a creature instead of an object. The fact that is has no Intelligence score means it's mindless-- like most vermin and oozes.
Scion of Coldshard 01-16-08, 01:27 AM	Probably these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#stackingEffect s). The ones you're ignoring. So you are saying that he is saying all of those apply? I would say that you are wrong, I doubt that he feels all of those apply. The fact that it has a Wisdom and Charisma just means it's a creature instead of an object. The fact that is has no Intelligence score means it's mindless-- like most vermin and oozes. And this has what to do with what I said again? There are three 'mental' stats and three 'physical' stats. If you would like to use some other term go right ahead, but I am not sure why you feel that having a - for int means that the creature has a - for all mental stats. A couple of quotes from the SRD for you that might help: ALTERNATE FORM The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. AGE With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase
CrimsonDeath 01-16-08, 03:39 AM	So you are saying that he is saying all of those apply? I would say that you are wrong, I doubt that he feels all of those apply. Are you intentionally misinterpretting what I'm saying in an inept attempt to make me look stupid, or am I really being that unclear? No, there are rules in the book that don't apply to the Schism power. There are rules on that page that don't apply to the Schism power. There are even rules under that heading that don't apply to the Schism power. However, there are rules that [b]do[/i] apply. For example: Same Effect with Differing Results[/i]"] The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts. Now, I I'm probably wrong, but I'm going to guess that you won't argue that Schism is not the same effect as Schism (since it's the same power). So, if you manifest it twice, the second one makes the first one irrelevant as long as both instances of the power persist. (Incidentally, this means I was wrong about Resist Energy and Animal Affinity.) Also note that you haven't adequately explained how a power that explicitly creates a situation "like two characters in one body" can somehow create a situation like some number of characters other than two sharing a body. And this has what to do with what I said again? There are three 'mental' stats and three 'physical' stats. If you would like to use some other term go right ahead, but I am not sure why you feel that having a - for int means that the creature has a - for all mental stats. I never said the Astral Construct didn't have a Wisdom or Charisma. In fact, I said that it did, and that's what makes it a creature instead of an object. Incidentally, what you said was that the Astral Construct is a "mental entity", and I don't even know why I'm arguing about that because it's a term you made up. I can't actually prove it isn't, because you get to decide the definition. I do have a question for you though: Is the Schism mind a creature? If so, what are its ability scores, and how are they determined? If not, how does it get to make decisions?
Racinante 01-16-08, 11:30 AM	You could manifest a power and then have your other mind maintain concentration on it. Or transfer the concentration to your psicrystal. So as an additional mental standard action, you can maintain concentration on an additional power, bringing the total to 3. If you get hit, you could lose concentration on both powers. Give a specific example of why this is so broken. Using the start/stop a full-round action option you could spend your two standard actions to manifest a 1 round manifesting time power in a single turn (which manifester level do you use? who knows?). Actually, you could not. As an additional mental standard action, you could never use both standard actions to manifest a 1 round power in a single round. You could, however manifest a full round action power and move. A one round power takes one round to manifest, regardless of the number of actions you have. There is a big difference between a 1 round power and a full-round manifesting time power.
Lycanthromancer 01-16-08, 11:44 AM	Lyca's sig is better. Fun anyway.Just to clarify, did you mean my powers revision?
Scion of Coldshard 01-16-08, 01:38 PM	Are you intentionally misinterpretting what I'm saying in an inept attempt to make me look stupid, or am I really being that unclear? I asked which rule he was meaning specifically. You responded with 'these' which implies 'all of them'. If you had meant only one part of it then you should've put up the part you meant instead of giving the whole list as a suitable answer. However, there are rules that [b]do[/i] apply. For example: I've seen that one. The example giving in the phb for what it is talking about is polymorphing into different creatures. That doesnt really seem to apply to schism especially as another manifestation of schism doesnt necessarily make the other manifestastions of it 'irrelevant'. Also note that you haven't adequately explained how a power that explicitly creates a situation "like two characters in one body" can somehow create a situation like some number of characters other than two sharing a body. What? Why would I have to explain that when something talks about applying itself it doesnt need to explain how to apply itself it applied multiple times? That would be stupid. You manifest it and it tells you what happens for that manifestation. The descriptive text is easily flexible enough to see what happens if you happen to already have two minds in that body without a seperate explination being needed. I never said the Astral Construct didn't have a Wisdom or Charisma. In fact, I said that it did, and that's what makes it a creature instead of an object. Incidentally, what you said was that the Astral Construct is a "mental entity", and I don't even know why I'm arguing about that because it's a term you made up. I can't actually prove it isn't, because you get to decide the definition. I am not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse or not. Your first point here means nothing at all to the conversation at hand and the second is apparently you trying to wiggle out of misinterpreting the word 'mental', which is used in numerous places in the books.
Scion of Coldshard 01-16-08, 01:40 PM	Or transfer the concentration to your psicrystal. Which takes yet another power and at least one feat plus has extra restrictions attatched. Actually, you could not. Oh? Why is that? Under the section I referenced it allows for the spending of two standard actions to get a 1 round casting time finished.
Racinante 01-16-08, 02:18 PM	Oh? Why is that? Under the section I referenced it allows for the spending of two standard actions to get a 1 round casting time finished. Did you miss the part that says: Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. emphasis mine. Having an additional standard action does not allow you to complete a one round casting time power in a single round.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-16-08, 06:04 PM	1,008,000d6 bludgeoning damage with 2 mid-level, core spells! See, multiple Schisms ain't so bad. Let's make of list of yous. You You - your body You - your mind You - your mind and body You - your second mind Now manifest Mind Switch with something You - your body - is one thing You - your mind - is one more thing You manifest Schism on you. You manifest Schism on you, your other you. See, You (a technical term), just manifested a second schism on you. But which You is it, this You, that You, or as Scion of Coldshard say, the other You ??? Me ... Me Too ... (later) Me Too Too hence my sig
CrimsonDeath 01-16-08, 06:29 PM	I asked which rule he was meaning specifically. You responded with 'these' which implies 'all of them'. If you had meant only one part of it then you should've put up the part you meant instead of giving the whole list as a suitable answer. Which has already been done. In this thread. Multiple times. Since you've been here the entire time, I didn't think it was necessary. I've seen that one. The example giving in the phb for what it is talking about is polymorphing into different creatures. That doesnt really seem to apply to schism especially as another manifestation of schism doesnt necessarily make the other manifestastions of it 'irrelevant'. Perhaps. But as far as I know, you still haven't addressed this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14826591&postcount=8). What? Why would I have to explain that when something talks about applying itself it doesnt need to explain how to apply itself it applied multiple times? That would be stupid. You manifest it and it tells you what happens for that manifestation. The descriptive text is easily flexible enough to see what happens if you happen to already have two minds in that body without a seperate explination being needed. Ah, so the descriptive text only means exactly what it says when you want it to. When it's inconvenient for your interpreatation, it's "flexible". I contest that the reason it doesn't expalin what happens when it's applied multiple times is because it can't be. I am not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse or not. Your first point here means nothing at all to the conversation at hand and the second is apparently you trying to wiggle out of misinterpreting the word 'mental', which is used in numerous places in the books. I can't decide if you're being deliberately obtuse or not. Yes, that entire branch of the discussion is irrelevant, but if you want to know why I said it, allow me to recap. In this case the effects can act independently and do completely different things, much like having two energy types on a person from protection from energy can both work at the same time since they can act independently. The effect is much like the astral construct power in that it makes a seperate entity that can perform more actions, typically on your behalf. No, Schism does exactly one thing: It grants you a standard action. Schism doesn't decide what to do with that action; you do. And unlike Resist Energy, you don't decide what to do with those actions when you manifest the power; you decide on a round-by-round basis. That is definately, most certainly, not what schism does. Schism makes an autonomous mind within your body with which you can communicate. Generally it is assumed it will do what the manifester wants because, well, it basically is the manifester. But the manifester does not gain the standard action directly anymore than he gains an extra standard action from having an astral construct on the field. The Schism mind uses your powers known. The Astral Construct does not. The Schism mind uses your PP. The Astral Construct does not. The Schism mind is stuck inside your body. The Astral Construct is not. There's really no reason to compare Schism and Astral Construct. At all. So, your point seems to be that because there are differences then I cannot compare the similarities when I am talking about the similarities? If that is actually your point then I am confused. I'm saying that the differences between them are such that they render any similarities incomparable. Obviously, I disagree. The parts I am comparing are that they create a seperate mental entity who gets actions. This is very important since the character who manifested the power does not get those actions directly. It also shows that it is not a normal sort of buff where the character gains something directly, instead they create something else and gain effectively incidental benefits. The ways I am comparing the two demonstrate the points I am putting forward, they do not say that the powers are identical in all ways. Well, you are incorrect about at least one thing. An Astral Construct (the creature) has no Intelligence score, so it's not a "mental entity". Anyway, what happens when the Schism mind manifests a Personal power? Whom does it target, the manifester of Schism, or the Schism mind itself? They have pretty high wis and cha for not being a mental entity. They may not be very 'intelligent' mental entities, but they have mental stats that are not a -. The fact that it has a Wisdom and Charisma just means it's a creature instead of an object. The fact that is has no Intelligence score means it's mindless-- like most vermin and oozes. And this has what to do with what I said again? There are three 'mental' stats and three 'physical' stats. If you would like to use some other term go right ahead, but I am not sure why you feel that having a - for int means that the creature has a - for all mental stats. I never said the Astral Construct didn't have a Wisdom or Charisma. In fact, I said that it did, and that's what makes it a creature instead of an object. Incidentally, what you said was that the Astral Construct is a "mental entity", and I don't even know why I'm arguing about that because it's a term you made up. I can't actually prove it isn't, because you get to decide the definition. I do have a question for you though: Is the Schism mind a creature? If so, what are its ability scores, and how are they determined? If not, how does it get to make decisions? And that's basically a comprehensive explanation of how we got here. If you want the condensed version, I think this is where the confusion began (emphasis mine): Obviously, I disagree. The parts I am comparing are that they create a seperate mental entity who gets actions. This is very important since the character who manifested the power does not get those actions directly. It also shows that it is not a normal sort of buff where the character gains something directly, instead they create something else and gain effectively incidental benefits. The ways I am comparing the two demonstrate the points I am putting forward, they do not say that the powers are identical in all ways. Now, the main point of my previous post is that "mental entity" is not a defined game term. Because of that, there is no formal definition of a "mental entity", nor a clear description of what a "mental entity" can accomplish. So, what is a "mental entity"? What can it do? What can be done to it? What are its defining characteristics? What makes an Astral Construct one? What makes the effect of Schism one?
WebJiCi 01-19-08, 01:32 PM	Thanks for the answers guys, guess you cannot do so...
awaken_D_M_golem 01-19-08, 03:27 PM	Thanks for the answers guys, guess you cannot do so... Which "You" are you refering to? English language allows: "you" to refer to you - only you "you" to refer to you - not me "you" to refer to you - you plural Southern Engllish dialect uses "y'all" (as a contraction of you+all) to refer to you -you plural Additionally, context will let one distinguish between "you" to refer to you - you plural group A "you" to refer to you - you plural group B Question: Does WotC use "you" with this level of specifics? Answer: Umm ... probably not ***** If you start with the assumption that CD is right, to disprove him would require only one example. So set the condition that a Schism is up and running. Your second mind takes an action that it can take, like manifesting Call To Mind. Call to Mind Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 1 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous Power Points: 1 By meditating on a subject, you can recall natural memories and knowledge otherwise inaccessible to you. On a failed Knowledge check, you can manifest this power to gain a new check with a +4 competence bonus. If successful, you instantly recall what was previously buried in your subconscious. I bolded the "you". Is the "you" refering to both the first mind and the second mind? Or is the "you" refering to just the second mind ?? The second mind manifests Call to Mind on itself. ***** What other examples can we find? Here's a power that says and does what CD wants Schism to say and do: Fission Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 7 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Effect: Duplicate of yourself Duration: 1 round/level (D) Power Points: 13 You can divide yourself, creating a duplicate that comes into existence 5 feet away. Your duplicate thinks and acts exactly as you do and follows your orders, although it will not do anything you wouldn’t do yourself. Your duplicate has all your abilities but none of your psionic or magical equipment (it does possess a duplicate of all your mundane equipment, clothing, armor, and implements, as well as mundane versions of any psionic or magical equipment you have). You and your duplicate evenly split your power points, your remaining usages of pertinent special abilities for the day, and so on. You retain your psionic focus, if you maintain such when this power is manifested. Treat your duplicate as yourself with two negative levels for the purpose of determining the powers to which the duplicate has access (while the duration of this power lasts, those negative levels cannot be removed by any means). Your duplicate has all other physical traits you had at the time you manifest this power. Powers, spells, or other effects affecting you when you manifest this power do not transfer to your duplicate. When the duration expires or when you dismiss the power, you and your duplicate rejoin, no matter how far from each other you are. You gain back any power points the duplicate has not spent. At the time of rejoining, you take half of the damage your duplicate has taken since this power was manifested. This damage could potentially leave you with negative hit points, but it can’t reduce your hit points to less than -9. If your duplicate dies before the duration expires, no rejoining occurs, and you gain one negative level. If you die, your duplicate remains in existence, and is for all intents you, but with two negative levels. (Once the duration expires, one of the negative levels immediately converts to one lost level; the other negative level can be removed by standard means.) :D You can have only one fissioned duplicate in existence at one time; :D :D your duplicate cannot use this power. :D You cannot use fusion or metaconcert with a duplicate, or share any other power or effect that pools abilities (the sum of you and you is still just you). Similarly, attempting to use powers such as claws of the vampire or vampiric blade to hurt your duplicate only damages your duplicate; these powers do not heal you. Empathic transfer and similar powers are likewise ineffective (transferring wounds to yourself isn’t a good healing strategy). All powers affecting a fissioned creature, either the original or the duplicate, end when the fission ends. All damage, including hit point damage, ability damage, ability drain, and ability burn damage, is added together. If Schism said: :D You can have only one schism in existence at one time; :D :D your schism cannot use this power. :D Then Schism would work the way CD wants it to work. But Schism doesn't say what Fission says. And Schism doesn't do what Fission does. ***** Summary: For CD's position to work, you (the followers of CD) would need: (1) ... a more specific definition of "you" than what WotC uses (2) ... the second mind be un-target-able by a "you" power (3) ... Schism to have the wording of Fission Conclusion: But it has none of these things; things 1, 2, or 3 (as like a clarified "you"). Result: A really expensive nova. Optimizeable: Yep - just click Lyca's sig, as I mentioned earlier. :D Have fun. PS: speaking of having fun ... substitute in a * Y'ALL * , for each and every use of the word "you" in CD's posts.
CrimsonDeath 01-19-08, 08:09 PM	aDMg, just what do you think I'm saying? Because it looks like you're arguing against something off to the left of what I've been trying to say. (Oh, and Scion of Coldshard? I'm still waiting on your definition of a "mental entity".)
WebJiCi 01-19-08, 09:39 PM	Which "You" are you refering to?Funny... "you" as in "you, the player". I cannot have more than 1 schism power active, and neither can you. :P
awaken_D_M_golem 01-27-08, 04:04 PM	Couple votes Yes ; couple votes No ; all votes are created equal ; and some votes are more equal than others. WebJiCi - you can do what you want CD - I don't know what you and Scion are doing with Astral Construct. My limitation. My perspective (me, the great me, the center of the universe me) is that Astral Construct is "left turn" from Schism. Your perspective (you, the great you, the center of the universe you) is that Astral Construct is ??? from Schism. I just can't figure what that ??? is. Schism can't effect the original manifester again for the reasons Bacris posted. But - You target you with a "Target : You" power. Who is the You? You the first mind is the you of the first schism - it creates a second you. You the second mind is the you of the second schism. Here's Tempest Stormwind using "You", the way I'm using "you": The psicrystal has no race and has no class. It has Construct hit dice, though, meaning it's of type Construct. Also: there's two Alertness abilities. 1) The Master gains the Alertness feat while psicrystal within 5'. 2) You (who has this feat) gains +2 to Listen and Spot. Note the difference. The psicrystal has Alertness (granting it +2 to Listen and Spot) and grants Alertness to the master if it's close enough. The first feat can be changed at creation as per monster advancement rules. Let's say the psicrystal takes Stealthy. The psicrystal has Stealthy (granting it +2 to Move Silently and Hide) and grants Alertness to the master if it's close enough. That's what we mean. (Oddly, people have thought that the two are the same, which leads to some issues with the feats argument. I think it's because the name of the abilities are the same, but the results are totally different.) Here, the psicrystal is the you, NOT the originating Psion. Same idea with Schism - the second mind is the you, NOT the originating Psion. ********** Now - Is it worth it? No. (round 1) - 9d6 damage (round 2) - 9d6 damage (round 3) - 9d6 damage + empower 29 pp spent = 31.5d6 damage vs. (round 1) - schism (round 2) - 9d6 damage , schism (round 3) - 9d6 damage , 7d6 damage , 5d6 damage 44 pp spent = 30d6 damage
CrimsonDeath 01-27-08, 05:06 PM	CD - I don't know what you and Scion are doing with Astral Construct. My limitation. My perspective (me, the great me, the center of the universe me) is that Astral Construct is "left turn" from Schism. Your perspective (you, the great you, the center of the universe you) is that Astral Construct is ??? from Schism. I just can't figure what that ??? is. I'm trying to figure out what Scion is doing with Astral Construct, but I can't do that if Scion stops talking. Personally, I think Astral Construct is irrelevant to the discussion and would prefer if it had never been mentioned. I'm still waiting for the definition of the phrase "mental entity", since Scion's argument seems to hinge on that at this point. Schism can't effect the original manifester again for the reasons Bacris posted. But - You target you with a "Target : You" power. Who is the You? You the first mind is the you of the first schism - it creates a second you. You the second mind is the you of the second schism. Here's Tempest Stormwind using "You", the way I'm using "you": Here, the psicrystal is the you, NOT the originating Psion. Same idea with Schism - the second mind is the you, NOT the originating Psion. There's a big, important difference, though. A Psicrystal is a creature. The effect of a Schism spell isn't. Creatures can manifest powers. Creatures are probably in the majority of entities that can manifest powers, so the default assumption is most likely that a power is being manifested by a creature. So, a creature can definitely be the target of a power with "Target: You". Objects may be able to manifest powers, such as psionic traps. So an object might be able to be the target of a power with "Target: You" (although I can't think of a situation in which it would matter). The question is, can an effect manifest a power?